Posted on 09/21/2004 7:43:13 AM PDT by Tantumergo
"If Mary is the new Eve, then that would mean she is the bride of the New Adam, Jesus. But not even you guys believe that. Your typology makes no sense if she is new Eve. How does Mary fulfill any of the typology of Eve?"
According to Genesis 3:15, the New Eve was to be the mother of the New Adam: "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed."
***Forget about trying to interpret what a word means - the Church has already supplied the interpretation, as related in: ***
But what if the church were... wrong?
That is correct!
In Jewish Law a man betrothed to a woman was considered legally married to her. The word for betrothed in Hebrew is Kiddush, a word that is derived from the Hebrew word Kadash which means "holy" "consecrated," "set apart." Because by betrothal (as in Mt 1:18; Lk 1:27) , or marriage, a woman became the peculiar property of her husband, forbidden to others.
The Oral Law of Kiddushin (Marriages and Engagements) states; "The husband prohibits his wife to the whole world like an object which is dedicated to the Sanctuary" (Kiddushin 2b, Babylonian Talmud).
We know from the Gospel of Matthew 1:14 that Joseph the husband of Mary was a righteous man, a devout law-abiding Jew. Having noticed that Mary was pregnant and that he, her betrothed, had nothing to do with the pregnancy, Joseph had either to publicly condemn her and have her put to death for adultery (Dt 22:22-29) or put her away privately.
His decision was made when an angel appeared to him in a dream, saying: "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife; for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit; she will bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins" (Mt. 1:20-21). The angel does not use the phrase for marital union: "go in unto" (as in Gn 30:3, 4, 16) or "come together" (Mt 1:18) but merely a word meaning leading her into the house as a wife (paralambano gunaika) but not cohabiting with her.
For when the angel revealed to him that Mary was truly the spouse of the Holy Spirit, Joseph could take Mary, his betrothed, into his house as a wife, but he could never have intercourse with her because according to the Law she was forbidden to him for all time.
It is a point of doctrine Christians in good faith disagree on. Why do we continually have to whack each other in the face about it in these forums?
Mary's Assumption would have been impossible without Jesus' Resurrection, for it is His resurrection power which will glorify our bodies (Philippians 3:21). This dogma depends upon and reaffirms the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
"This is what The Church, at Rome and in the East has always and everywhere believed. Anything else is heresy!"
Amen! I pray that no modernist ever gets his hands on the beautiful prayers of your liturgy.
"Why do we continually have to whack each other in the face about it in these forums?"
Who's whacking? - its been a fairly civilised discussion on all sides as far as Religion Forum threads go.
I posted the thread because someone had asked for information about this subject, but I'm quite happy to get into debate on it as long as it remains charitable.
< I pray that no modernist ever gets his hands on the beautiful prayers of your liturgy.>
Modernists?!!! Us????? I don't think so. I've said this before, but, its great worshipping Almighty God the same way my family did 1700 years ago.
Ahhhhh ... you and I travel the same path! Though Roman Catholic, I attend the Maronite Catholic Divine Liturgy.
[PRIEST]: O Mother of God, we see the best of speakers become as mute as fish in your regard, for they could not explain how you could give birth while remaining a virgin. As for us, while marveling at the mystery, we cry out to you with faith:
Hail, O Container of God's Wisdom!
Hail, O Treasury of His Providence!
Hail, O Reproof of foolish philosophers!
Hail, O Confusion of speechless wise men!
Hail, for you perplexed the inquisitive minds!
Hail, for you dried up the inventors of myths!
Hail, for you ripped the Athenians' meshes!
Hail, for you filled the Fishermen's nets!
Hail, O Retriever from the Abyss of Ignorance!
Hail, O Lamplight of Knowledge to many!
Hail, O Ship for those who seek Salvation!
Hail, O Harbor for the Sailors of Life!
Hail, O Bride and Maiden ever-pure!
[RESPONSE]: Hail, O Bride and Maiden ever-pure!
From ....
I can't figure out how to post an icon image, but if anyone is interested, the oldest icon images of Panagia show her with three "stars", one on each shoulder and another on her forehead. These stars represent that she "was, is and perpetually will be" the Holy Virgin. From the earliest days of the Church, even as far back as the Icon of Panagia attributed to St. Luke, the Church has presented her as such.
very interesting thread. thanks for posting.
I also appreciated the Marian prayers and canticles posted by others.
And also from the Akathist Hymn (which is actually quite long)
Kontakion 3
The power of the Most High then overshadowed the Virgin, that she might conceive; and her fruitful womb He made a fertile meadow for all those desiring to reap salvation, as they chant:
Alleluia.
Eikos 3
Carrying God in her womb, the Virgin hastened to Elizabeth, whose unborn babe forthwith recognizing Mary's salutation rejoiced, and with leaps as it were with songs, he cried out to the Theotokos:
Rejoice, O branch of the unwithering Vine. Rejoice, O Land yielding the untainted Fruit.
Rejoice, O Husbandry of the merciful Husbandman. Rejoice, O birthgiver to the Planter of our life.
Rejoice, O Field bearing abundant compassion. Rejoice, O Table laden with an abundance of mercies.
Rejoice, for you make the meadow produce contentment. Rejoice, for you prepare a haven for souls.
Rejoice, acceptable Incense of intercession. Rejoice, Oblation for all the world.
Rejoice, Favour of God to mortals. Rejoice, Access of mortals to God.
Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride.
What if its right?
"2. Because a tendency toward docetism had to come up with a dodge to keep Jesus from being tainted by sinful flesh."
I think St. John's corpus of writing more than adequately dealt with the Docetist heresy, and yet his devotion to the Ark of the New Covenant is very profound.
Better try harder than that.
It might be, but scripture is always right. I will go with scripture over anything the church says.
This image of the All-Holy Virgin in Orans pose, with hands reaching upwards, replicates the common iconographical type of the Virgin found in many Eastern Orthodox churches in the apse of the sanctuary, where it symbolically relates to her position as an intercessor between people and Christ. The Kiev Panagia is a splendid example of monumental composition characteristic of the early period of Russian icon painting. The icon is strongly influenced by the Byzantine art of the period, particularly in the solemn and static posture, in the folds of the garments, and in the pensive look on the Virgin's face. It is possible that this icon was inspired by a mosaic (see the Orans in the Cathedral od St. Sophia in Kiev).
The composition is extremely balanced, almost symmetrical. On either side of the Virgin's head are two archangels who seem to be looking over her and perhaps expressing astonishment at the great miracle of Christ's birth. Christ is shown in a roundel around the Virgin's chest to indicate symbolically that he is in her womb: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel" (KJV, Isaiah 7:14). Notice how the hands of Christ Emmanuel, stretched out in blessing, connect to the hands of the Virgin. The roundels with the archangels, the halo of the Virgin, and the roundel containing the image of Christ form a triangle, and this triangular shape, "framed" by the position of the Virgin's hands and a particularly deep crease in the folds of her garment, pushes the Virgin's body down and anchors it firmly to the decorative red ground. The mantle falls down at an angle which counteracts the downward push of the triangle and balances the composition. The folds of the drapery define her body, but they seem to disconnect her from her feet. The gold background helps to accentuate the red of the ground and the browns and blues of the cloak. [K.T. and A.B.]
My personal favorite is Our Lady of Soufanieh.
At least 200 replicas of Our Lady of Soufanieh Icon spread throughout the world have also shed oil like the Icon in the home of Myrna and Nicholas Nazzour in Damascus, Syria. Having this replica of the miraculous icon in your home - can remind you of the love and unity that should exist in your family which is to be like a little church, "domestic church" the Pope calls it, - and to pray for Christian Unity - "that all may be one" as called for by our Lord in the Bible and at Soufanieh in Damascus in our own day. This Icon honored in your home will bring Our Lady's intercession for love and unity in your family. It will remind you to pray for Church Unity.
The very one I was trying to copy. Thanks!
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