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THE MATHEMATICAL SIGNATURE OF GOD IN THE WORDS OF SCRIPTURE [INCREDIBLE PROOF]
BOOK THE SIGNATURE OF GOD: Documented Evidence That Proves Beyond Doubt the Bible Is the Inspired... ^ | 1998 | GRANT R JEFFERY

Posted on 11/28/2004 4:42:56 PM PST by Quix

NOTE: If I know anything about the rabid naysayers on FR, at least some of the RELIGIOUS [vs spiritual] types will wail and rant that ANYTHING having to do with numbers and The Bible has to be crossing the line into dealing with Biblically forbidden NUMEROLOGY. This is nonsense. The dictionary definition of “numerology” makes clear that numerology is the study of numbers, as the figures designating the year of one’s birth, “to determine their supposed influence on one’s life, future, etc.” [Quix color, bold emphasis on the definition from:

HERE: http://www.infoplease.com/ipd/A0562554.html

Clearly, the Biblically prohibited issue is INTEREST IN, TRUST IN, FASCINATION IN, FAITH IN A SUPERNATURAL OCCULTIC CONNECTION, PHENOMENA OR DYNAMIC rather than Faith in God.

Please note also, I didn’t go back and insert the italics codes for the rather many italicized words. Sorry. Have other priorities today, too. As usual, the color bolded is my emphasis.

CHAPTER 12 excerpt for fair use discussion from

The Signature of God

By Grant R Jeffery

The Book has many chapters of impressive study and research including photos from Sinai Peninsula re Moses’ led crossing at the EXODUS etc. I encourage people to buy and read the whole book. It’s well worth the time. NOTE: Jeffrey uses Hebrew Letters in the text. I’ve forgotten my Hebrew alphabet and certainly don’t know how to post them. If someone can clue me in (listing the Hebrew alphabet with the letter’s names in English letters—as well as how to post the Hebrew), I’ll see what I can do, later.

The Mathematical Signature of God in the Words of Scripture

The Scriptures reveal God as the great mathematician who knows the smallest detail of His creation, and measures and numbers all things. This character of God is consistent with the revealed phenomenon of staggering complexity involving mathematical patterns within the text of the Scriptures. The Bible declares that God is so concerned with the details of His children's lives that He has numbered the hairs on our head. "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matthew 10:30). The prophet Isaiah speaks of His majesty and His concern for numbering and measuring all things [paragraphing added by Quix]:

"Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, measured heaven with a span and calculated the dust of the earth in a measure? Weighed the mountains in scales and the hills in a balance?" (Isaiah 40:12, NKjv). When you consider the Bible's declaration that God "measured the waters," "measured heaven with a span," and "calculated the dust of the earth in a measure," it does not seem unusual or out of character that this same Almighty God would inspire His writers to record His precise message to mankind in the Scriptures with a mathematical precision within the original text that surpasses our ability to understand fully.

Evidence of Divine Authorship of the Old Testament

Ivan Panin was one of the most remarkable Christians to live in this century. Almost one hundred years ago, this fascinating and famous mathematician left Russia to settle eventually in Canada in the town of Aldershot, Ontario, not far from where I live. Although he was a committed atheist in his early years, he discovered the reality of Jesus Christ later. In 1890, Panin embarked on an exciting journey of scientific exploration of the text of the Bible that would prove that the Bible is truly the inspired Word of God. This century has witnessed a progressive abandonment of the doctrine of verbal inspiration of the Scriptures by many biblical scholars and religious leaders. As the leaders of many mainline churches succumbed to the continuous assaults on fundamental doctrines and the authority of Scripture, many Christian laymen began to lose their confidence that they could absolutely trust that the Bible was truly the inspired Word of God. As Ivan Panin wrote, "In the early centuries Christianity suffered most from its avowed enemies; in the last, from its professed friends."

Panin completed an astonishing study during the ^•'course of fifty years that revealed the most amazing mathematical pattern beneath the surface layer of the text of the Bible. He worked diligently up to eighteen hours a day for half a century to illustrate the divine inspiration and authority of Scripture. As one small example, Panin discovered that the first verse of the Book of Genesis contains an astonishing number of mathematical patterns that illustrate divine inspiration. “ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth (Genesis 1:1).

The phenomenon of these mathematical patterns cannot be understood until we realize that the Bible was composed in alpha-numeric languages—Hebrew and Greek. These ancient languages did not possess Arabic numbers to express numeric data. Therefore, these languages used various letters of their alphabet to express numbers such as " 1,2,3," etc. In addition, a small portion of the Bible was written in Aramaic, which is also alpha-numeric. Each letter in these languages stood for a number. -In other words, each of the letters expressed both a letter and a number. When they wished to express a number, such as 22, they would choose two Hebrew letters—one letter [HEBREW LTR] stood for 20 and the second letter [HEBREW LTR] stood for 2.

The first letter of the Hebrew alphabet stood for 1, the second for 2, the third for 3, etc. When we come to the eleventh letter, it represented 20, the twelfth stood for 30, etc., all the way through to 800. Because each letter had a numeric value, every word can be given a numeric value by adding up the total value of each of the individual letters. In addition, every one of the Hebrew and Greek letters was given a place value as well. To help illustrate this phenomenon let's apply this system to the English language. It would look like this:

An Example Illustrated in the English Language

PLACE VALUE

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 20 30 40 50 60

NUMERIC VALUE

The Hebrew Language

PLACE VALUE

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15

[FIRST 15 HEBREW LETTERS]

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 20 30 40 50 60

NUMERIC VALUE

Note that in the above example using the English alphabet the first ten letters have the same place values and numeric values. However, when we get to the eleventh letter K, the numeric value begins to increase by ten with each additional letter until we reach the value of 100. From that point in the alphabet forward the numeric value of each letter will increase by 100.

Every single word in Hebrew contains a series of letters with individual numeric values. For example, the word B'raisheet, "beginning," is expressed in Genesis 1:1 in Hebrew as [HEBREW LETTERS]. If you add up the total value of the individual letters in B'raisheet the numeric value of the word is 913. Since each word has a numeric value, we can add up the value of each of the words in a biblical verse to determine the numerical value of the sentence.

The Astonishing Pattern of SEVENS in Genesis 1:1

Let us begin by examining the first verse of the Bible to explore Panin's discovery.

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1:1)

[Genesis 1:1 in Hebrew]

Ivan Panin carefully examined the Hebrew text of Genesis 1:1 and discovered an incredible phenomenon of multiples of 7 that could not be explained by chance. Genesis 1:1 was composed of 7 Hebrew words containing a 28 letters. Throughout the Bible, the number 7 appears repeatedly as a symbol of divine perfection—the 7 days of creation. God rested on the 7th day, the 7 churches, the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, etc. In total, Panin discovered 30 separate codes involving the number 7 in this first verse of the Bible.

A Listing of the Phenomenal Features of Sevens Found in Genesis 1:

1. The number of Hebrew words.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
2. The number of letters equals 28 (28-4= 7) . . . . . Seven
3. The first three Hebrew words translated
“In the beginning God created” contain
14 letters (14 / 2 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Seven
4. The last four Hebrew words "the heavens
and the earth" have 14 letters (14-2=7) . . . . . . . .Seven
5. The fourth and fifth words have 7 letters . . . . . Seven
6. The sixth and seventh words have 7 letters . . . . .Seven
7. The three key words: God, heaven, and earth have 14 letters (14 / 2 = 7). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Seven
8. The number of letters in the four remaining s
words is also 14 (14 / 2 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
9. The middle word is the shortest with 2 letters.
However, in combination with the word to the
Right or left it totals 7 letters . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Seven
10. The numeric value of the first, middle,
(and last letters is 133 (133 / 19 = 7) . . . . . . . .. . . Seven
11. The numeric value of the first and last letters
of all seven words is 1,393 (1,393 - 199 = 7) Seven
When professors on the mathematics faculty at Harvard University were presented with this biblical phenomenon, they naturally attempted to disprove its significance as a proof of divine authorship. However, after valiant efforts these professors were unable to duplicate this incredible mathematical phenomenon. [QX PARAGRAPHING ADDED HERE]

The Harvard scientists used the English language and artificially assigned numeric values to the English alphabet. They had a potential vocabulary of over 400,000 available English words to choose from to construct a sentence about any topic they chose. [QX paragraphing added here]

Compare this to the limitations of word choices in the biblical Hebrew language, which has only forty-five hundred available word choices that the writers of the Old Testament could use. Despite their advanced mathematical abilities and access to computers the mathematicians were unable to come close to incorporating 30 mathematical multiples of 7 as found in the Hebrew words of Genesis 1:1.

If anyone doubts the difficulty of producing a passage following such an intricate pattern of sevens, I challenge you to try it yourself. I have tried, and it is impossible to complete a paragraph on any topic and remain true to the system of interlocking sevens. I doubt that anyone could complete a paragraph of over one hundred and fifty words following such a pattern of sevens, as found in Genesis 1:1 and Matthew, chapter 1, even if they were to devote several years to the effort. [QX added paragraphing, here].

The problem is that with the addition of every I fit single word and sentence the magnitude of the challenge to integrate the new phrase into the existing pattern grows geometrically. Each word and sentence must fit into the pattern existing within me preceding sentences. [Qx added paragraphing here].

In light of this virtual impossibility we need to remember that the writers of the Bible were forty-four mostly common men who wrote their individual texts separated from one another over a period of sixteen centuries. How could these ordinary men contribute to this hidden pattern without consultation when most of them never met their fellow authors? The only logical explanation is that God directed their minds through supernatural INSPIRATION TO WRITE His precise inspired words.

The number "seven" permeates the totality of Scripture because the number speaks of God's divine perfection and perfect order. The actual number 7 appears 287 times in the Old Testament (287 - 41 = 7) while the word seventh occurs 98 times (98 - 14 = 7). The word seven-fold appearst seven times. In addition, the word seventy is used 56 times • (56 / 8 = 7).

Panin discovered literally thousands of such mathematical patterns underlying all of the books of the Old Testament before his death in 1942. I refer the interested reader to Panin's book. The Inspiration of the Scriptures Scientifically Demonstrated,

which discusses these phenomena extensively. Panin and others have examined other Hebrew literature and have attempted to find such mathematical patterns, but they are not found anywhere outside the Bible.

Matthew 1:1-17—Evidence of Divine Authorship of the New Testament

Panin also examined the New Testament to discover whether or not the pattern continued. There were four hundred years of silence between the completion of the Old Testament ft around 396 B.C., and the writing of the New Testament following the resurrection of Jesus Christ. However, when God inspired the New Testament authors, including Matthew, to begin writing the Gospels, He again manifested His signature on the pages of Scripture by creating a marvelously complex pattern of sevens beneath the text of Matthew's Gospel.

The first section in Matthew's account consists of seventeen verses from Matthew 1:1 to 1:17 that describe in•detail one particular subject, the genealogy of Jesus Christ. This seventeen-verse text contains 72 Greek Vocabulary words. A Vocabulary word is a particular word different from any other word that was used in a passage. In other words, a Greek word that appears 6 times in the passage would only be counted as 1 Vocabulary word. Obviously, the number of Vocabulary words will differ from the number of total words appearing in the passage. The same system of numeric and place values for letters exists in the Greek language used in the New Testament as we found in Hebrew of the Old Testament.

A Listing of the Phenomenal Features of Sevens Found in Matthew 1:1-17

1 The total numeric value of the 72 Vocabulary
words is 43,364 (42,364 - 6,052 = 7) . . . . . . . Seven
2 The number of Greek nouns in the passage
IS 56 (56 / 8 = 7)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
3 The Greek article for “the” occurs 56 times
(56 / 8 = 7)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven

In the first eleven verses of Matthew 1:1-11 we find these additional features:

4 The number of Greek vocabulary words is 49
(49 / 7 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
5 Of these 49 words, 28 words begin with a vowel
(28 / 4 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Seven
6 Of these 49 words, 21 begin with a consonant
(21 / 3 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
7 The number of letters in these 49 words equals
266 (266 / 38 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
8 Of these 49 words, 35 words occur more than
one time (35 / 5 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
9 Of these 49 words, 14 words occur only one time
(14 / 2 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
10 The number of proper nouns is 35 (35/5=7) . . . . Seven
11 The number of times these proper nouns occur
is 63 (63 / 9 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
12 Of the 35 proper nouns, the number of
male names is 28 (28 / 4 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
13. Three women, Tamar, Rahab, and Ruth, are named
in this section. The number of Greek letters in
these three names is 7 (14 / 2 = 7) . . . . . . . . . Seven
Only a few of the numerical features that are found in this passage are listed in this analysis by Ivan Panin.

However, these features reveal an underlying profound mathematical design that reveals the signature of the true author of both the New Testament and the Old Testament— God Himself. However, to illustrate that this is not an unusual phenomenon occurring only in this one isolated passage, I will list some additional mathematical features that occur in the balance of Matthew 1:18-25 and describe the birth of Jesus Christ. In this seven-verse section God has placed an astonishing pattern of SEVENS that verify the signature of the original author.

The Pattern of SEVENS in Matthew 1:18-25—The History of Christ's Birth

1. The number of letters in the seven word
passage is 161 (161 -23=7) . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
2. The number of Vocabulary words is 77
. . . . (77-11=7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
3. Six Greek words occur only in this passage
. . . . . and never again in Matthew. These six
. . . . . .Greek words contain precisely 56 letters
. . . . . (56 - 8 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
4. The number of distinct proper nouns in
. . . . . the passage is 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
5. The number of Greek letters in these seven
. . . . . .proper nouns is 42 (42 - 6 = 7) . . . . . . . . Seven
6. The number of words spoken by the angel to
. . . . . . Joseph is 28 (28 - 4 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
7. The number of Greek forms of words used in
. . . . . . this passage is 161 (161 - 23 = 7) . . . . . . . Seven
8. The number of Greek forms of words in the
. . . . . angel’s speech is 35 (35 / 5 = 7) . . . . . . . . . Seven
9. The number of letters in the angel's 35 forms
. . . . . of words is 168 (168 / 24 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . Seven

This phenomenal discovery by Panin has been examined by numerous authorities and the figures have been verified. In total, Panin accumulated over forty thousand pages of detailed calculations covering most of the text of the Bible before his death. [Qx added paragraphing here]

These incredible, mathematical patterns are not limited to the number seven. There are numerous other patterns. These amazing patterns appear in the vocabulary, grammatical forms, parts of speech, and particular forms of words. They occur throughout the whole text of the Bible containing 31,173 verses. When you consider the amazing details of this mathematical phenomenon you realize that the change of a single letter or word in the original languages of Hebrew or Greek would destroy the pattern. Now we can understand why Jesus Christ declared that the smallest letter and grammatical mark of the Scriptures were preserved by God's hand: "For verily I say unto you. Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled” Matthew 5:18)

Naturally, the religious skeptics did not abandon their atheism in response to these incredible discoveries by Ivan Panin that revealed a staggering pattern of complexity hidden beneath the text of Scripture. After many skeptics had dismissed his research, Ivan Panin issued a public challenge through one of the major newspapers of the day, the New York Sun, in a letter to the editor on November 20, 1899, offering his detractors an opportunity to prove his research wrong if they could. [Qx added paragraphing here].

Panin issued his public challenge to some of the greatest atheist scholars of the day. "I herewith respectfully invite any or all of the following to prove that my facts are not facts: namely Messrs. Lyman Abbott, Washington Gladden, Herber Newton, Minot J. Savage, Presidents Eliot of Harvard, White of Cornell, and Harper of the University of Chicago, Professor J. Henry Thayer of Harvard, and Dr. Briggs, and any other prominent higher critic so called. They may associate with themselves, if they choose, all the contributors to the ninth edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica, who wrote its articles on Biblical subjects, together with a dozen mathematicians of the caliber of Professor Simon Newcomb. [Qx added paragraphing here]

The heavier the calibre of either scholar or mathematician, the more satisfactory to ft me. They will find that my facts are facts. And since they are facts, I am ready to take them to any three prominent lawyers, or, better still, to any judge of the superior or supreme court, and abide by his decision as to whether the conclusion is not necessary that Inspiration alone can account for the facts, if they are facts. All I should ask would be that the judge treat the case as he would any other case that comes before him."

Despite his public challenge in the New York Sun, not one of these prominent men attempted to refute Mr. Panin's undeniable facts or to deal with the unavoidable conclusion that the evidence produced by Panin proved that the Bible was truly inspired by a divine intelligence. The critics could not refute these facts. The only thing they could do was to ignore them. [Qx added paragraphing here]

Were Mr. Panin's research and calculations wrong? If so, where? If they were correct, and if they are, then the evidence exists for all to see that God did truly inspire the words of Scripture. One of Panin's last challenges consisted of this argument. He wrote to his ''detractors: "Lastly, my argument can also be refuted by showing that even though my facts be true, my arithmetic faultless, and my collocation of numerics honest, that men could have written thus without inspiration from above."

However, any honest attempt to create a paragraph on any subject that will contain this astonishing pattern of mathematical features within the surface text will utterly fail. I doubt that even a modern Cray super-computer could produce a passage containing the "wheels within wheels" pattern of sevens as revealed in Genesis 1:1 or Matthew 1:1-25.

To date, no one has succeeded in duplicating the phenomenon produced by the biblical writers in ancient times.

What was Panin’s own view of the Scriptures after a lifetime of diligent study? He wrote the following statement in one of his essays after warning of the limitations of wisdom found in secular philosophy. "Not so, however, with The Book. For it tells of One who spake as men never spake, who was the true bread of life, that which cometh down from the heavens, of which if a man eat he shall never hunger." Ivan Panin's conclusion of the matter was the following challlenge.

"My friend of the world, whoso you are: Either Jesus Christ is mistaken or you are. The answer that neither might be is only evading the issue, not settling it. But the ages have decided that Jesus Christ was not mistaken. It is for you to decide whether you shall continue to be."

QX: AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

PTL!


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I realize that naysayers are very disinclined to deal well with facts. But I would hope that if they have the integrity to take Panin up on his challenge, THAT THEY WOULD COUNT THE NUMBER OF TIMES PER WEEK THAT THEY ATTEMPT IT--and report back to us in an ongoing update.

Blessings,

1 posted on 11/28/2004 4:42:56 PM PST by Quix
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To: Quix

don't need it.


2 posted on 11/28/2004 4:44:20 PM PST by Mercat (Thank you freepers.)
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To: JustPiper; MamaDearest; drymans wife; Labyrinthos; nwctwx; 1john2 3and4; BriarBey; Indie; ...

I think you would find this post quite interesting.

You may even know others worth pinging.

Blessings,


3 posted on 11/28/2004 4:46:04 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: Mercat

What The Lord has done in my heart is more than sufficient for me, too.

You might know someone who'd benefit from the post.


4 posted on 11/28/2004 4:47:04 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: Mercat; Quix
Don't need it.

Me either.

5 posted on 11/28/2004 4:49:48 PM PST by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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Comment #6 Removed by Moderator

To: connectthedots

It is beginning to appear to me that the religion forum has been deserted by almost all those with any kind of reliable postive outlook, perspective, attitude, charity etc. at all.


7 posted on 11/28/2004 5:01:08 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: Quix
I find this quite intriguing, Quix. Thanks for the post.
8 posted on 11/28/2004 5:06:49 PM PST by rintense
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To: Quix

that's true


9 posted on 11/28/2004 5:07:26 PM PST by Mercat (Thank you freepers.)
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To: connectthedots

God works in mysterious ways His wonders to perform. Let other's find his/her own way.


10 posted on 11/28/2004 5:08:17 PM PST by Mercat (Thank you freepers.)
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To: rintense

I was skeptical at first. Have usually found such tedious and of questionable merit.

This touched me. And, it does glorify God and show forth His Majesty. And I'm ALL FOR THAT!

Thanks for your kind words. Such seem to be in a drought condition on the religion forum. Or maybe it's just me! LOL!


11 posted on 11/28/2004 5:10:49 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: Mercat

Thanks.


12 posted on 11/28/2004 5:11:25 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: rintense

I found it that way. You are most welcome, as ever.


13 posted on 11/28/2004 5:18:48 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: Quix
"Every few years Christians become infatuated with some new and esoteric trend. And, if you have missed the hoopla in one of the past movements, just wait a few years and something new will surely surface. For example, in the late 1970s, Roland Buck and other Charismatic leaders captivated a segment of the Church with stories of angelic visitations. This cherubic hype lasted a few years and then diminished.

"A decade later, it again revived not only within “Christian” camps (through the fables of such celebrities as Benny Hinn), but also took prominence outside the Church. In 1993, both Time and Newsweek magazines featured cover stories on the “new age” of angels. Television series and specials and Hollywood movies all championed the angelic theme. Many Christian booksellers capitalized on the craze by devoting an entire section in their stores to publications, jewelry, calendars, and other items that advanced the subject of angels."
...
"One of the latest fads in Bible numerology comes to us through the aid of modern technology, as it took the computer to get it going. It is a pursuit of clandestine Bible prophecy called equidistant letter sequence or ELS. It has been popularized by Michael Drosnin’s best-selling book, The Bible Code. Drosnin’s book, published by Simon and Schuster in 1997, has found its way onto the (nonfiction) best-seller list of the New York Times. The book’s success has also afforded Drosnin guest appearances on popular television broadcasts such as Oprah. Other notables within Christian circles, including Paul Crouch, Hal Lindsey and Grant Jeffrey, have also jumped on the ELS bandwagon."

THE BIBLE CODE: PROPHETIC INSIGHT OR FERTILE IMAGINATION?

14 posted on 11/28/2004 5:27:32 PM PST by topcat54
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To: Quix
It is beginning to appear to me that the religion forum has been deserted by almost all those with any kind of reliable postive outlook, perspective, attitude, charity etc. at all.

There are so many Quix that don't have the decency to be polite even if they don't agree, that many are staying away. They know who they are.

15 posted on 11/28/2004 5:33:16 PM PST by ladyinred (Congratulations President Bush! Four more years!)
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To: Quix; Mercat; connectthedots; ExSoldier; ladyinred; rintense
"Did God place a secret code in the Old Testament? Did He know humans would someday invent the computer and discover this code? That's what some people think. Is that how God works?"
...
"I don't question Grant Jeffrey's commitment to Christianity, even though his livelihood depends on popularizing a steady stream of poorly documented and highly questionable "Astonishing Biblical Discoveries." However, he is gullible, he's no scholar, and he is unwittingly leading many of his readers into the arms of a supernatural counterfeit of God and His ways."

Does the Bible Code Bear the Signature of God?

16 posted on 11/28/2004 5:36:10 PM PST by topcat54
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To: topcat54

Yet again you demonstrate that you have

avoided researching much at all that which you write about.

It's amazing that you seem remotely comfortable with that pattern.


17 posted on 11/28/2004 5:36:33 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: Quix

Jesus said we need to have faith like little children, not degrees in cryptology.


18 posted on 11/28/2004 5:38:32 PM PST by Rebelbase (Who is General Chat and why does he/she have their own forum?)
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To: Quix
scratching my head. Unless actual source documents are used, what does this prove ?
The article is unclear what the original source documents used were. I doubt if the the original old\new testament documents were used.

1456 A.D. Gutenberg produced the first printed Bible in Latin.

1514 A.D. The Greek New Testament was printed for the first time by Erasmus. He based his Greek New Testament from only five Greek manuscripts, the oldest of which dated only as for back as the twelfth century. With minor revisions, Erasmus' Greek New Testament came to be know as the Textus Receptus or the "received texts."

1522 A. D. Polyglot Bible was published. The Old Testament was in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and Latin and the New Testament in Latin and Greek. Erasmus used the Polyglot to revise later editions of his New Testament. Tyndale made use of the Polyglot in his translation on the Old Testament into English which he did not complete because he was martyred in 1534.

1611 A.D. The King James Version into English from the original Hebrew and Greek. The King James translators of the New Testament used the Textus Receptus as the basis for their translations.

who's version of the bible was used ? words & phrases were translated differently among different versions.
It would seem that would mess up the numerology.

sorry...I can't suspend disbelief that much.
19 posted on 11/28/2004 5:40:11 PM PST by stylin19a (Marines - filling up Iraq's Tomb of the Unknown Soldier)
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To: Quix

You can't put Him in a box, or limit what He does to delight His people, and confound His enemies. This is "drink the wine of astonishment" stuff. Thanks Quix.


20 posted on 11/28/2004 5:40:28 PM PST by 185JHP ( "The thing thou purposest shall come to pass: And over all thy ways the light shall shine.)
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To: topcat54

BTW, I doubt you've read Roland Buck's book at all.

It was a great ministry to me at several points in my life.

I heard him speak before his death. He had an incredibly authentic, unflappable, opposite-of-naive personality.

I found his narrative quite authentic, believable and Spirit breathed.

That you found it otherwise is comforting. I'd prefer confirmations came otherwise but even paradoxical confirmations of truth can be comforting.


21 posted on 11/28/2004 5:40:47 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: 185JHP

Glad it blessed you!

Glad you're of sufficient attitude and spirituality that you

COULD

be blessed by it!

It blessed me, too!


22 posted on 11/28/2004 5:45:00 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: ladyinred

You would do well to check your dictionary about numerology. Your definition seems to be quite askew from the Biblical one.

I had thought that topcat posted about Roland Buck. Please read my comment to him.

Blessings,


23 posted on 11/28/2004 5:47:07 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: ladyinred

Thanks tons. I think I garbled up posts yet again. Please ignore the one that should have gone to topcat! LOL.

You are quite accurate, of course, imho.

Blessings to you and yours.


24 posted on 11/28/2004 5:48:53 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: Rebelbase

Exactly, and the choice of faith by feeling God in our lives is most envigorating each day.numerology is not the focus.

Ops4 God Bless America!


25 posted on 11/28/2004 5:50:58 PM PST by OPS4 (worth repeating)
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To: Quix

I'm curious what the author used for his source in determining the actual words of the new testament.

The way I understand it, there isn't a scrap of parchment left with the original words on it, and today's Bible has been re-interpreted so many times it must be hard to find the exact original words.

Also, the Church compiled the New Testament out of mountains of manuscripts to achieve what they wanted to put in the Bible.

Granted the writers were inspired, and hopefully so were the editors. God's hand must have been involved in every step of the way, especially if what He wanted to achieve was to have His words divisible by seven.


26 posted on 11/28/2004 5:53:38 PM PST by Arguss (Take the narrow road)
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To: topcat54

Evidently when you're not sufficiently motivated to check out the evidence and the references effectively,

throwing rocks relatively blindly will do for you.

I really deplore your wholesale distortions--to put it charatibly--that you write about these topics.


27 posted on 11/28/2004 5:55:00 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: Rebelbase

When in doubt, when not in doubt;

when it doens't meet one's biases;

when it's from a different perspective or approach . . .

regardless of it's merit to The Kingdom--

persistently and dogmatically throw rocks.

That's supposed to be more Christ-like, evidently, to some.

Amazing.


28 posted on 11/28/2004 5:56:37 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: Quix

thanks, that is really interesting.


29 posted on 11/28/2004 5:57:55 PM PST by fabian
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To: Quix

Simplify your comments and you'll reach more people. Not everyone has the intellect or patience to fathom your meanings.

Unless your intent is to appeal only to those those of like intellect?


30 posted on 11/28/2004 5:59:07 PM PST by Rebelbase (Who is General Chat and why does he/she have their own forum?)
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To: stylin19a

Panin's own book was refd in the doc.

But, hey, I wouldn't want to crimp your style with the facts. Go ahead and resist checking out the original document.

Enjoy your smug belief that it can't teach you anything new or of benefit to The Kingdom.

I suspect God has quite a different perspective on your perspective, however.


31 posted on 11/28/2004 5:59:48 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: OPS4

I can't stop you from using a perverted dictionary.

But I think it would be more honest to admit that there's no Biblical definition numerology involved in this document and study.

Sheesh.


32 posted on 11/28/2004 6:01:11 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: Arguss

Clearly God's hand was involved every step of the way, imho.

And, the notion that the versions have been too altered has been shown to be bogus. But I won't look up the refs or belabor the issue. I'm rather fed up with . . .

folks who call themselves believers and who's primary occupation as believers seems to be to throw rocks at edifying stuff; at other believers; and things useful to The Kingdom; at encouagements in the faith etc.


33 posted on 11/28/2004 6:04:13 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: Quix

I bet someine can find an amazing number of 8's in Genesis as well as 7's.


34 posted on 11/28/2004 6:04:45 PM PST by stands2reason
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To: Quix

There's more to refutation than talking about "people throwing rocks."


35 posted on 11/28/2004 6:08:00 PM PST by stands2reason
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To: stands2reason

I haven't found a lot of that noise worth any refutation.

Those truly seeking the truth will find it out.

The others . . . I think Christ had the more proper response to.


36 posted on 11/28/2004 6:10:20 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: topcat54
Although I've had a private message with Quix on this and I would apologize to any who thought my comment earlier was a negative reaction I was really just reacting (then) to the enourmity of it all. It is just too complex and big for me to grasp. But a few moments ago, I had a strong thought on this: It says in the Bible that My ways are not your ways. My thought are not your thoughts. I think it is the height of hubris to think that just because we have come so far in technology from the time of Jesus that we can ever hope to approach the level of God Almighty in the dissection by matematics of his word. HIS LIVING WORD.

So, although I mean no disrespect if you give credence to this....ummmm theory....I hereby pass on getting involved in necromancy.

37 posted on 11/28/2004 6:10:40 PM PST by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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To: stands2reason

TRY IT.

I'M CONFIDENT YOU CANNOT.


38 posted on 11/28/2004 6:10:48 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: Rebelbase

THAT IS A PROBLEM AND A CHALLENGE.

Oddly, I can do it easiest in face to face teaching.

It's real hard work to do it in writing. Not sure why.

Anyone else is welcome to translate! Sigh.

I appreciate the exhortation. Ill keep trying to chip away at it--in some cases! at least.

Probably not for all rock throwers, though.


39 posted on 11/28/2004 6:12:45 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: fabian

I found it so.

And the refs are there to check out.


40 posted on 11/28/2004 6:13:17 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: topcat54

"One of the latest fads in Bible numerology comes to us through the aid of modern technology, as it took the computer to get it going. It is a pursuit of clandestine Bible prophecy called equidistant letter sequence or ELS. It has been popularized by Michael Drosnin’s best-selling book, The Bible Code. Drosnin’s book, published by Simon and Schuster in 1997, has found its way onto the (nonfiction) best-seller list of the New York Times. The book’s success has also afforded Drosnin guest appearances on popular television broadcasts such as Oprah. Other notables within Christian circles, including Paul Crouch, Hal Lindsey and Grant Jeffrey, have also jumped on the ELS bandwagon."

I think all Christians should be wary of anything written by Michael Drosnin. I have read both his Bible Code book and Bible Code II followup and am getting rid of both of them. The first one was plausible enough to start the ELS bible code interest. His second book goes completely off the rails. He claims the secret to the origin of life was put in a spaceship by aliens i.e "gods" and buried in the lowest physical portion of the earth - some barren place in Israel. Shades of Eric Van Daniken! In the second book, too, BTW, Drosnin claims that the bible codes told him that Bush stole the election from Gore in 2000. He also says, based on the codes, that he told Yassir Arafat he would be assassinated. So take all of these claims with a huge degree of skepticism.

As for ELS, there is a website out there where they were looking at who would win the Nov 2nd election. One researcher claimed the bible codes said Kerry would win. Another researcher found other bible codes that supposedly said President Bush would win. So much for accurate predictions.


41 posted on 11/28/2004 6:13:32 PM PST by plushaye (President Bush - W2!! Four more years now! Thanks Swifties & POWs for Truth. Thank you GOD!!)
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Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

To: Quix
Panin used the Received Hebrew Text and the Westcott and Hort Text among others, in his studies.
So what...That's not the answer to my question.

talk about smug.....glad you have an inside track to God's "perspective".
43 posted on 11/28/2004 6:16:40 PM PST by stylin19a (Marines - filling up Iraq's Tomb of the Unknown Soldier)
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To: Arguss

I think God has LOTS of fun in LOTS of ways confounding the wise.

The Bible Codes are scoffed at by many ignorant folks who have not investigated the latest criteria etc. for valid codes nor even the whole principles behind them. I don't think God is ready to use them to show some astounding stuff but what has surfaced has been pretty incredible when all the facts are looked at closely enough.

Though, maybe I'm wrong on God's timing. There's a new supposedly block buster shocker of a book out on them soon. We shall see.

I think God absolutely loves to confound the puffed up and self considered wise intellectual pharisee types.


44 posted on 11/28/2004 6:16:55 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: ExSoldier

Main Entry: nec·ro·man·cy
Pronunciation: 'ne-kr&-"man(t)-sE
Function: noun
Etymology: alteration of Middle English nigromancie, from Middle French, from Medieval Latin nigromantia, by folk etymology from Late Latin necromantia, from Late Greek nekromanteia, from Greek nekr- + -manteia -mancy
1 : conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events
2 : MAGIC, SORCERY
- nec·ro·man·cer /-s&r/ noun
- nec·ro·man·tic /"ne-kr&-'man-tik/ adjective
- nec·ro·man·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

DOESN'T FIT THIS FINDING IN THE SCRIPTURAL TEXT

AT ALL.

I wish you well Bro.


45 posted on 11/28/2004 6:26:11 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: plushaye

Most code stuff and especially Drosnin is hogwash.

There are reliable Code researchers and authentic codes.

Those really interested in the truth will seek them out.

BibleCodesDigest.com is a reputable place.


46 posted on 11/28/2004 6:28:14 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: Revelation 911

I think God throws out lots of interesting side notes like so much bread upon the water and as the stars of the sky.

Some will tweak and draw some sorts of people to Him.

Others of them will confound the wise with God's 'foolishness.' And that's a worthy result, too.

This particular thing is rather straightforward. The original doc is listed. And the premises are simple and straightforward. People can do their own duplicating research, if they are a mind.


47 posted on 11/28/2004 6:30:51 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: Revelation 911

Of almost as much interest is the compulsive naysaying mentality.

Reminds me of some Scriptures.


48 posted on 11/28/2004 6:31:26 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: stylin19a

Not sure I have a lot of inside tracks on much of anything.

I do have some sense that has tended to prove more right than wrong much more of the time

about God's priorities and sometime His perspective on this or that situation.


49 posted on 11/28/2004 6:33:34 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: stylin19a

I think a key distinction for me, is,

that I don't think my impressions or insights or perspective has that much to do with me

--particularly when correct.

It's not my intellect, my massive data/puzzle piece collecting and analyzing . . .

whatever good results, whatever accurate results, is certainly due to God, the source of all good.

I still feel rather like a bumbling farm hick . . . of my youth.


50 posted on 11/28/2004 6:35:21 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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