Posted on 11/29/2004 11:33:53 PM PST by Sean O L
Whenever legitimate authority has once given a clear command, let no one transgress that command, because it does not happen to commend itself to him; but let each one subject his own opinion to the authority of him who is his superior, and obey him as a matter of conscience. Again, let no private individual, whether in books or in the press, or in public speeches, take upon himself the position of an authoritative teacher in the Church. All know to whom the teaching authority of the Church has been given by God: he, then, possesses a perfect right to speak as he wishes and when he thinks it opportune. The duty of others is to hearken to him reverently when he speaks and to carry out what he says.
Pascendi "It is pride which rouses in them the spirit of disobedience and causes them to demand a compromise between authority and liberty; it is pride that makes of them the reformers of others, while they forget to reform themselves, and which begets their absolute want of respect for authority, not excepting the supreme authority. No, truly, there is no road which leads so directly and so quickly to Modernism as pride."
Just substitue "traditionalism" for Modernism
Pope Pius IX: Quanta Cura §5
"We cannot pass over in silence the audacity of those who, not enduring sound doctrine, contend that 'without sin and without any sacrifice of the Catholic profession assent and obedience may be refused to those judgments and decrees of the Apostolic See, whose object is declared to concern the Church's general good and her rights and discipline, so only it does not touch the dogmata of faith and morals.' But no one can be found not clearly and distinctly to see and understand how grievously this is opposed to the Catholic dogma of the full power given from God by Christ our Lord Himself to the Roman Pontiff of feeding, ruling and guiding the Universal Church."
1. That which our lord Jesus Christ, the prince of shepherds and great shepherd of the sheep, established in the blessed apostle Peter, for the continual salvation and permanent benefit of the Church, must of necessity remain for ever, by Christ's authority, in the Church which, founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time
*This is a Dogma you, and others like you, refuse to accept.
*Come back home, Robert
Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent, since in writing such Letters the Popes do not exercise the supreme power of their Teaching Authority. For these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority, of which it is true to say: "He who heareth you, heareth me" (Luke 10:16); and generally what is expounded and inculcated in Encyclical Letters already for other reasons appertains to Catholic doctrine.
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII
... 21. It happens far otherwise with Christians; they receive their rule of faith from the Church, by whose authority and under whose guidance they are conscious that they have beyond question attained to truth. Consequently, as the Church is one, because Jesus Christ is one, so throughout the whole Christian world there is, and ought to be, but one doctrine: "One Lord, one faith;"(22) "but having the same spirit of faith,"(23) they possess the saving principle whence proceed spontaneously one and the same will in all, and one and the same tenor of action.
22. Now, as the Apostle Paul urges, this unanimity ought to be perfect. Christian faith reposes not on human but on divine authority, for what God has revealed "we believe not on account of the intrinsic evidence of the truth perceived by the natural light of our reason, but on account of the authority of God revealing, who cannot be deceived nor Himself deceive."(24) It follows as a consequence that whatever things are manifestly revealed by God we must receive with a similar and equal assent. To refuse to believe any one of them is equivalent to rejecting them all, for those at once destroy the very groundwork of faith who deny that God has spoken to men, or who bring into doubt His infinite truth and wisdom. To determine, however, which are the doctrines divinely revealed belongs to the teaching Church, to whom God has entrusted the safekeeping and interpretation of His utterances. But the supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires, together with a perfect accord in the one faith, complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself. This obedience should, however, be perfect, because it is enjoined by faith itself, and has this in common with faith, that it cannot be given in shreds; nay, were it not absolute and perfect in every particular, it might wear the name of obedience, but its essence would disappear. Christian usage attaches such value to this perfection of obedience that it has been, and will ever be, accounted the distinguishing mark by which we are able to recognize Catholics. Admirably does the following passage from St. Thomas Aquinas set before us the right view: "The formal object of faith is primary truth, as it is shown forth in the holy Scriptures, and in the teaching of the Church, which proceeds from the fountainhead of truth. It follows, therefore, that he who does not adhere, as to an infallible divine rule, to the teaching of the Church, which proceeds from the primary truth manifested in the holy Scriptures, possesses not the habit of faith; but matters of faith he holds otherwise than true faith. Now, it is evident that he who clings to the doctrines of the Church as to an infallible rule yields his assent to everything the Church teaches; but otherwise, if with reference to what the Church teaches he holds what he likes but does not hold what he does not like, he adheres not to the teaching of the Church as to an infallible rule, but to his own will."(25)
23. "The faith of the whole Church should be one, according to the precept (1 Cor. 1:10): "Let all speak the same thing, and let there be no schisms among you"; and this cannot be observed save on condition that questions which arise touching faith should be determined by him who presides over the whole Church, whose sentence must consequently be accepted without wavering. And hence to the sole authority of the supreme Pontiff does it pertain to publish a new revision of the symbol, as also to decree all other matters that concern the universal Church."(26)
24. In defining the limits of the obedience owed to the pastors of souls, but most of all to the authority of the Roman Pontiff, it must not be supposed that it is only to be yielded in relation to dogmas of which the obstinate denial cannot be disjoined from the crime of heresy. Nay, further, it is not enough sincerely and firmly to assent to doctrines which, though not defined by any solemn pronouncement of the Church, are by her proposed to belief, as divinely revealed, in her common and universal teaching, and which the Vatican Council declared are to be believed "with Catholic and divine faith."(27) But this likewise must be reckoned amongst the duties of Christians, that they allow themselves to be ruled and directed by the authority and leadership of bishops, and, above all, of the apostolic see. And how fitting it is that this should be so any one can easily perceive. For the things contained in the divine oracles have reference to God in part, and in part to man, and to whatever is necessary for the attainment of his eternal salvation. Now, both these, that is to say, what we are bound to believe and what we are obliged to do, are laid down, as we have stated, by the Church using her divine right, and in the Church by the supreme Pontiff. Wherefore it belongs to the Pope to judge authoritatively what things the sacred oracles contain, as well as what doctrines are in harmony, and what in disagreement, with them; and also, for the same reason, to show forth what things are to be accepted as right, and what to be rejected as worthless; what it is necessary to do and what to avoid doing, in order to attain eternal salvation. For, otherwise, there would be no sure interpreter of the commands of God, nor would there be any safe guide showing man the way he should live.
*So, it appears Pope Leo would consider today's schismatics heretics...
Once again, you get it wrong. Here you confuse the griping of a sedevacantist priest who was expelled from the Econe, with the "facts." These are not "facts", not by a long stretch.No! Once again YOU have it wrong! There were a number of seminarians at Econe, including Daniel Dolan, who then had sedevacantist orientations. Nonetheless, Lefebvre (who vacillated between a sort of "respect" for Rome and on other occasions of calling the Pope and the curia guilty of heriesies and of being antiChrist) nevertheless, ordained those seminarians who were "fiddling" with sedevacantist opinions. AFTER their postings to the USA and after a period of time (when Lefebvre felt like cuddling up to the one he described as "antichrist") THEN he expelled the 9 in the USA. Your "facts" are "fiction".
Mother Church, Catholic, Roman, which has remained faithful to the constitution received from her divine Founder, which still stands firm today on the solidity of the rock on which His will erected her, possesses in the primacy of Peter and of his legitimate successors, the assurance, guaranteed by the divine promises, of keeping and transmitting inviolate and in all its integrity through the centuries and millennia to the very end of time the entire sum of truth and grace contained in the redemptive mission of Christ.
Never throughout the course of ages has supernatural power been lacking in the Church; never have the promises of Christ failed. They remain as powerful today as they were when they filled the heart of Gregory with consolation. Rather, having withstood the test of time and the change of circumstances and events, they possess even greater assurance...
*You trad-peeps invoke Pope St. Pius, but you believe differently than did he
'No bishop is permitted under any pretext or privilege whatsoever to exercise episcopal functions in the diocese of another bishop, without the permission of the Ordinary of the place and with regard to persons subordinate to the same Ordinary. If any bishop does otherwise, he will be lawfully suspended from his episcopal functions . . .' (Sess. VII, cp. 5,)
*Trent in opposition to the excomunicated schismatic Lefevbre and his followers
That which our lord Jesus Christ, the prince of shepherds and great shepherd of the sheep, established in the blessed apostle Peter, for the continual salvation and permanent benefit of the church, must of necessity remain for ever, by Christ's authority, in the church which, founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time [45] . For no one can be in doubt, indeed it was known in every age that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, the pillar of faith and the foundation of the catholic church, received the keys of the kingdom from our lord Jesus Christ, the saviour and redeemer of the human race, and that to this day and for ever he lives and presides and exercises judgment in his successors the bishops of the holy Roman see, which he founded and consecrated with his blood [46] .
Therefore whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole church. So what the truth has ordained stands firm, and blessed Peter perseveres in the rock-like strength he was granted, and does not abandon that guidance of the church which he once received
People like OptimusPrime5 (a likely retread from a previous banning) is, first of all, rude for not pinging Sinkspur when his name is mentioned, and wrong about Sinkspur's membership in Opus Dei. I'm not particularly a fan of Opus Dei, or any group that seeks to impose weird disciplines on people.
But, you criticize Opus Dei because it is a devotee of the Novus Ordo. In that, Jose Maria Escriva (a saint of the Roman Catholic Church) was a wise man.
Q: What is the Catholic Church?
A: The Catholic Church is the Union or Congregation of all the baptized who, still living on earth, profess the same Faith and the same Law of Jesus Christ, participate in the same Sacraments, and obey their lawful Pastors, particularly the Roman Pontiff.
9 Q: State distinctly what is necessary to be a member of the Church?
A: To be a member of the Church it is necessary to be baptized, to believe and profess the teaching of Jesus Christ, to participate in the same Sacraments, and to acknowledge the Pope and the other lawful pastors of the Church.
10 Q: Who are the lawful pastors of the Church?
A: The lawful pastors of the Church are the Roman Pontiff, that is, the Pope, who is Supreme Pastor, and the Bishops. Other priests, also, and especially Parish Priests, have a share in the pastoral office, subject to the Bishop and the Pope.
11 Q: Why do you say that the Roman Pontiff is supreme Pastor of the Church?
A: Because Jesus Christ said to St. Peter, the first Pope: "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and I will give to thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatsoever thee shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in Heaven, and whatsoever the shallot loose on earth shall be loosed also in Heaven." And again: "Feed My lambs, feed My sheep."
12 Q: The many societies of persons who are baptized but who do not acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head do not, then, belong to the Church of Jesus Christ?
A: No, those who do not acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head do not belong to the Church of Jesus Christ.
13 Q: How can the Church of Jesus Christ be distinguished from the numerous societies or sects founded by men, and calling themselves Christian?
A: From the numerous societies or sects founded by men and calling themselves Christian, the Church of Jesus Christ is easily distinguished by four marks: She is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.
14 Q: Why is the Church called One?
A: The true Church is called One, because her children of all ages and places are united together in the same faith, in the same worship, in the same law; and in participation of the same Sacraments, under the same visible Head, the Roman Pontiff.
*accrd to Pope St Pius X, you need to come home
I am under no illusion they will persuade those in schism. These things have been posted by me before. I just thought it'd be useful to post many of them all on one thread.
I don't know if sinkspur is opus dei or not. I am not but I think they are a fine organization in union with Rome.
I am, however, a member of a far larger organization - an organization of sinful Christian Catholics all of whom are in union with Peter. We meet in my local Parish Church every Sunday (at a minimum)
Judas was also a "favourite" of Christ's: he was an Apostle. That did not prevent him from falling away: nor did a past illustrious life prevent Tertullian from becoming an heretic; nor Lefebvre & Co. from becoming schismatics.
Willful adherence to the schism of Lefebvre and his TWICE excommunicated bishops (the second one being incurred automatically for consecrating Bp. Rangel of Campos) also places the adherents in the same state of schism and excommunication - all bleatings from the SSPX and associated "independents", Thucites, etc. to the contrary notwithstanding.
We are now all God's creatures belonging to churches of equal merit without distiction in the ability of being saved.
Those are YOUR words or misinterpretation of some-one else's interpretation. They are NOT the words, thoughts or intentions of the pope.
As Br. Ignatius Mary says:
"1) No, not all religions are the same. Not all religions worship the same God. Religions are not all on equal ground. The Church teaches that we might find some grain of truth in all religions to which we can agree with them and fellowship upon, but the Church does not say that all religions are equal or as good as any other.
"2) No, this idea of all religions as good as another is NOT what the Pope is saying or teaching. Rather, the Pope is doing what Christ mandated -- going to all the world to preach the Gospel. In doing that the Pope recognizes the dignity of all persons. He recognizes that all people are children of God, even if they have travelled down the wrong road and have an erroneous understanding of God.
"The common dignity of man and the common reality that we are all God's children should lead us to dialogue (not necessarily agreement, but a dialogue). This dialogue is efficacious in the common goals of world peace, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, promoting justice and respect of all persons, etc.
"This dialogue the Pope speaks about does NOT compromise the Revealed Truth of God entrusted to the Catholic Church even one iota. He dialogues with fellow travelers on this planet; he never compromises the Truth of the Catholic Faith.
"3) No, we are not expected to believe that all religions worship the same God. Some religions worship the devil, others worship creation instead of the creator. and still others worship idols. The world's religions do not all worship the same God; but....
".... the world's religions were created as a primitive attempt to try to understand God. The problem is that most of the religions did not have the advantage that Jews and Christians had -- that of God revealing Himself to us through the prophets and through Sacred Scriptures and Tradition.
"Since the various ancient religions did not have this guidance that we had, they did the best they could. Understanding this point is not depreciating the Truth of Christianity at all, it is merely understanding a historical fact."
Cite your sources please. There's a whole lot of garbage here--a lot of it not in your own language. Whom are you quoting?
By the way, when the Archbishop said the Pope belonged to a mafia--he meant this metaphorically. He was referring to the modernist claque now running the Vatican, not the Mob. And he was absolutely right. They did unprecedented violence to the Catholic faith. The prayer meetings at Assisi, for instance, were scandalous and an offense against the first commandment. The Archbishop did right to object vociferously and adamantly since the Pope gave huge scandal to the world of Christianity--twice, just to rub it in to those who objected. People like you who claim he is an orthodox pope need only take a look at these kinds of actions to realize such a description of this radical pontiff is ridiculous on the face of it.
I also can accept that the Archbishop may have celebrated the Novus Ordo at St. Peter's once or twice. It was his way to lean over backwards to be compliant with the Holy See, even when it stuck in his craw to do so. It was why he signed the Protocol--even when it contained no promise for any traditionalist consecrations as had been discussed but only a vague suggestion that the subject would be left to the Pope's discretion. He did not want a break with Rome--but Rome pushed him to the wall--until finally he pushed back in the name of the true faith. The entire Catholic Church should be eternally grateful he did since he struck a huge blow in favor of the ancient Mass--and for the ancient Catholic faith. Thank God for his courage in the face of such unprecedented dishonesty and abuse of power.
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