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Israel has no more claim on God's promises and blessing than Paraguay
The Layman Online ^ | December 10, 2004 | (The Rev.) Deane A. Kemper

Posted on 12/11/2004 12:20:16 PM PST by Presby Conservative

Israel has no more claim on God's promises and blessing than Paraguay December 10, 2004 In the wake of the General Assembly action calling for divestiture of holdings in some companies doing business with the government of Israel, there has been a disturbing amount of theological ignorance displayed in the pages of The Layman. I refer to prooftexting from Old Testament verses in which the Lord promises blessing and protection for Israel. The assumption of many writers, both clergy and laypeople, seems to be that the Israel of the Old Covenant and the modern state of Israel are, if not one and the same, at least equal in God's purview and interest. This line of thinking is quite contrary to the Reformed theological tradition, and most other theological traditions as well.

Our Bibles are divided into the Old and New Testaments. In the Old Testament, the blessings of God were poured out the Old Covenant people – the Jews. In the New Testament, since the Old Covenant has been fulfilled in the incarnation and the veil of the temple torn in two, God's blessing is on the people of the New Covenant, the church. The nation of Israel has completed its divine purpose by producing the promised Messiah. The modern state of Israel shares only a name with the Bibilical nation of the Hebrews and has no more claim on God's promises and blessing than Paraguay. Simply stated, in Jesus Christ the church is the new Israel. Circumcision was the sign of the Old Covenant, baptism is the sign of the New Covenant.

What may be at work here is the insidious influence of dispensationalism, a theological system arising in Britain in the 1830s, largely through the writing of J.N. Darby, and popularized by the Scofield Bible. Dispensationalism denies the finality of the New Covenant and teaches that God's working with humanity is vested in Israel and that at some future date the temple will be rebuilt, sacrifices reinstituted, and the Law of Moses restored. Dispensationalists take wholesale the references to Israel in the Old Testament prophets, read them literally, and apply them to contemporary Israel. There are those holding to a Reformed/Presbyterian theology, myself included, who see Dispensationalism as heretical on its face because it denies the sufficiency of Jesus' death and resurrection for the sins of humankind: Jesus came to fulfill the Old Covenant, not to interrupt it. In our generation, the most popular treatments of Dispensationalism are The Late, Great Planet Earth and the Left Behind Series. These books are an intriguing stew of equal parts of The National Inquirer, the Scofield Bible and Jeanne Dixon.

The Layman has a marvelous educational opportunity to perform a great service for its readers and also the entire denomination by running a series of articles "God and the Nations: A Reformed Understanding." This might help us get over the notion that any critical statement opposing, or action taken, not in the partisan interests of the government of Israel is somehow an attack on God's chosen people. (The Rev.) Deane A. Kemper Mt. Pleasant, S.C.


TOPICS: Activism; Current Events; Mainline Protestant; Religion & Politics; Theology
KEYWORDS: israel; pcusa; presbyterian; replacementtheology
It appears the PCUSA's Replacement Theologians are now coming out to defend the PCUSA's decision to divest from Israel.
1 posted on 12/11/2004 12:20:16 PM PST by Presby Conservative
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To: Presby Conservative

I'm going to go on now before this thing gets rolling and point out that the PCUSA is a very liberal organization, much like the Democratic Party while Presbyterian Church of America consists of believing Christians who are conservative in their moral values and (more than not) their politics. Please don't lump all Presbyterians together.


2 posted on 12/11/2004 12:22:30 PM PST by SittinYonder (Tancredo and I wanna know what you believe)
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To: Presby Conservative
This line of thinking is quite contrary to the Reformed theological tradition, and most other theological traditions as well.

I reject this hackneyed so-called argument totally, and absolutely and uncompromisingly. Fortunately the writer was thoughtful enough to place it at the beginning of his argument.
Avoiding, for the moment, the clear problem of religion generally and questions of faith particularly, most reasonable people would defer to the oldest source.

It is as if we were asked to accept as more authoritative, a modern "version" of the Constitution, revised and clarified by perverts, deviants and other criminals.

That dog won't hunt.

3 posted on 12/11/2004 12:27:39 PM PST by Publius6961 (The most abundant things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.)
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To: Presby Conservative
PCUSA's decision to divest from Israel.

Why exactly are they doing this? Do they object to Israel defending herself (like the building of the fence, for instance)? Are they offended by Israel's close ties to the Bush Administration?

4 posted on 12/11/2004 12:31:04 PM PST by Mr. Mojo
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To: SittinYonder

I would add on to this comment and also point out that there is a substantial and growing number of PCUSA churches comprised of believing Christians who have joined the "Confessing Church Movement," which seeks to turn back the revisionists in PCUSA.

Needless to say, they take a dim view of anti-Semitic teaching such as appears in this article. The argument that the Jews were made unnecessary and discarded by God in the New Testament has been the rationale for anti-Jewish pogroms and the holocaust. The statements in this article are not quite that strong, but that is the ultimate logic that underlies them.

There are many believing Christians even in PCUSA. The problem is the leadership and national bureacracy have been taken over by left-wing seminary graduates whose goal is to merge the PCUSA with the even more liberal UCC (United Church of Christ). As such, they reflect the growing anti-semitism of the Left.


5 posted on 12/11/2004 12:34:53 PM PST by kaehurowing
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To: Presby Conservative
In purely secular terms, Israel has every right to defend itself as any other country has.

The only people who disagree with this are muslims and bigots.

6 posted on 12/11/2004 12:36:29 PM PST by LibKill (Anti-nannystate tagline.)
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To: kaehurowing
Needless to say, they take a dim view of anti-Semitic teaching such as appears in this article. The argument that the Jews were made unnecessary and discarded by God in the New Testament has been the rationale for anti-Jewish pogroms and the holocaust. The statements in this article are not quite that strong, but that is the ultimate logic that underlies them.

I'm sorry. Does rejecting the Dispensationalist view in favor of the Covenant Theology (Reformed) view automatically make one anti-Semitic and in the same boat as leftists and Nazis?

7 posted on 12/11/2004 12:47:46 PM PST by Frumanchu (I fear the sanctions of the Mediator far above the sanctions of the moderator...)
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To: Presby Conservative; Frumanchu
This article really seems to beg the question. Covenant/Replacement/Dispensational theology is decidedly NOT the issue. The REAL issue is this:

Was the UPCUSA's decision to divest in Israel Morally correct?


The rest is merely a digression.
8 posted on 12/11/2004 1:05:57 PM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper)
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To: Frumanchu

"Does rejecting the Dispensationalist view in favor of the Covenant Theology (Reformed) view automatically make one anti-Semitic and in the same boat as leftists and Nazis?"

No, what the Rev. Kemper is doing is disguising anti-Semitic teaching as "Reformed theology," and then further states that anyone who believes otherwise is a "dispensationalist."


9 posted on 12/11/2004 1:09:54 PM PST by kaehurowing
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To: Frumanchu
I'm sorry. Does rejecting the Dispensationalist view in favor of the Covenant Theology (Reformed) view automatically make one anti-Semitic and in the same boat as leftists and Nazis?

No, rejecting the dispensationalist view does not make one anti-Semitic. However, this action, and others, of the PCUSA, a Reformed Theology denomination, is the result of anti-Semitism in the leadership of that church IMO. Any organization that condemns and economically punishes Israel for defending itself against fanatical Islamic terrorism is in the anti-Semitic "boat" AFAIC.

I emphatically reject any doctrine that claims God's promises to Israel were not unconditional and eternal, but I can still fellowship with other Christians who hold to that doctrine. What I can't tolerate or compromise with is the notion that the modern nation of Israel is an alien intruder on Arab lands. That false premise is clearly contradicted by history and by God's own word. Any organization or nation that persecutes Israel or the Jews in general is poking it's finger in God's eye, and history is littered with the wreckage of those nations which have done so.

10 posted on 12/11/2004 1:35:02 PM PST by epow (1911A1, the pink bunny of pistols)
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To: Presby Conservative
The nation of Israel has completed its divine purpose by producing the promised Messiah.

Whether Israel (the nation or people) has completed its divine purpose or not is not for us to say.

11 posted on 12/11/2004 1:44:43 PM PST by nosofar
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To: Presby Conservative

Funny, I just can't seem to find that verse that speaks about ' the Paraguayians first and also the Gentile'.


12 posted on 12/11/2004 1:47:29 PM PST by Cvengr (;^))
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To: Presby Conservative
A Jew is one that is a Jew inwardly and circumcision is of the heart. The Jews today have been cut out because they do not believe in Jesus, and the Gentiles have been grafted in. Many Jews will be grafted back into the original vine but they will be the ones who God has revealed the Gospel to.

I am a Gentile by birth but consider myself a Jew as I am of the Covenant of faith and not the Law. However the land of Israel is holy and Jerusalem is holy. When Jesus returns to Jerusalem there will be peace there and also in the world, but it will start in Jerusalem.

13 posted on 12/11/2004 1:55:45 PM PST by normy (Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.)
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To: Presby Conservative
To call it mere anti-semitism, with the implication that the only sin commited is that emotions are 'used improperly' is in truth heresy and an attempt to cover up more heresy. It is much more than mere anti-semitism. It is the false gospel of 'free will' that the PC(USA) as a whole (and not just a 'few guys in leadership positions'...as the rest try to make out...) has embraced come home to roost. Replacement Theology is nothing more itself than "My will is so free and big it needs more grist for its mill. So I'll take your promises too." But God is not mocked.

Proverbs 27:20 Sheol and destruction are insatiable; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

Proverbs 30:15-17 The leech hath two daughters: Give, give. There are three things never satisfied; four which say not, It is enough: --Sheol, and the barren womb; the earth which is not filled with water, and the fire which saith not, It is enough. The eye that mocketh at a father, and despiseth to obey a mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it.

Micah 2:7,8 O thou that art named the house of Jacob, Is Jehovah impatient? are these his doings? Do not my words do good to him that walketh uprightly? But of late my people is risen up as an enemy: ye strip off the mantle with the garment from them that pass by securely, that are averse from war.

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen

14 posted on 12/11/2004 3:03:23 PM PST by telder1
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To: epow

"I emphatically reject any doctrine that claims God's promises to Israel were not unconditional and eternal,"

Your statement begs the question of whether the Israelis of today do indeed represent the Israel of the Old Testament and therefore are the inheritors of the covenant promise. The New Testament indicates that the Church is the inheritor. Judaism began a great split with the coming of Jesus. Those who accepted him became the Church. As for those who rejected him, Jesus had some harsh words:
John 8:39-45 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father."

Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds your father."

They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God."

Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

"Why do not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand for the truth, because there is not truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar and the father of lies.

"But because I speak the truth, you do not believe me."


15 posted on 12/11/2004 3:12:34 PM PST by SausageDog
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To: Publius6961
I reject this hackneyed so-called argument totally, and absolutely and uncompromisingly.

Gosh, that sure is really, really impressive.

It is as if we were asked to accept as more authoritative, a modern "version" of the Constitution, revised and clarified by perverts, deviants and other criminals.

Actually, it's nothing whatsoever like that.

Land begins to those who can hold it, regardless of what some tired, shopworn myths might happen to purport. As long as Israel can hold the territory it has, it, or anyone else, can make as many dim-bulb claims as desired. If it can't hold on it, then it can't hold on to it, and new, equally ridiculous claims can then be made by those who take it.

16 posted on 12/11/2004 3:27:22 PM PST by Pahuanui (When a foolish man hears of the Tao, he laughs out loud)
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To: Presby Conservative; All

Romans 11:25-27 (New American Standard Bible)


25For (A)I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this (B)mystery--so that you will not be (C)wise in your own estimation--that a partial (D)hardening has happened to Israel until the (E)fullness of the Gentiles has come in;


26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"(F)THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."



27"(G)THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
(H)WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

 

DG

(See tag line.)

17 posted on 12/11/2004 3:54:24 PM PST by DoorGunner (Romans 11:26 "...and so all Israel shall be saved.")
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To: DoorGunner

"They are not all Israel who are called Israel..."


18 posted on 12/11/2004 4:10:42 PM PST by Frumanchu (I fear the sanctions of the Mediator far above the sanctions of the moderator...)
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To: Presby Conservative

I'm sorry if I offend anyone but this man is a spoon fed idiot.


19 posted on 12/11/2004 5:07:39 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: Presby Conservative
The title of this piece forgets relationship and history.

Isaiah 49: 13 Sing, O heavens! Be joyful, O earth! And break out in singing, O mountains! For the LORD has comforted His people, And will have mercy on His afflicted. 14 But Zion said, "The LORD has forsaken me, And my Lord has forgotten me." 15 "Can a woman forget her nursing child, And not have compassion on the son of her womb? Surely they may forget, Yet I will not forget you. 16 See, I have inscribed you on the palms [of My hands;] Your walls [are] continually before Me.

20 posted on 12/11/2004 7:26:36 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!)
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: Frumanchu

"They are not all Israel who are called Israel..."

 I am not certain of your point. Here are both your and my passages, in substantial context. Since some have become confused by the various pronouns used here. Thus, I have taken the liberty of making those referring to the Jews RED, and those referring to Gentile believers in BLUE. I probably have made some mistakes, and am willing to be corrected.

 

Romans 9

[Solicitude for Israel]

 1(A)I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,

 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.

 3For (B)I could wish that I myself were (C)accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen (D)according to the flesh,

[Paul's "brethren," his "kinsmen according to the FLESH," is Israel. They are the actual physical Israel, Israel in the FLESH. (AKA, the Jews)]

 4who are (E), to whom belongs (F)the adoption as sons, and (G)the glory and (H)the covenants and (I)the giving of the Law and (J)the temple service and (K)the promises,

 5whose are (L)the fathers, and (M)from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, (N)who is over all, (O)God (P)blessed forever. Amen.

[As to "the flesh," Yeshua (Jesus)is of the Jews, an Israelite.]

 

 6But it is not as though (Q)the word of God has failed (R)For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

 7nor are they all children (S)because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "(T)THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."

 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are (U)children of God, but the (V)children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

[Although Esau was a child (descendant) of Abraham. (of the flesh) Esau's descendents were NOT "children of the promise." Thus, they were not regarded as Abraham's "descendants."]

 

 9For this is the word of promise: "(W)AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."

 10(X)And not only this, but there was (Y)Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;

 11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that (Z)God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

 12it was said to her, "(AA)THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

 13Just as it is written, "(AB)JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

 14(AC)What shall we say then? (AD)There is no injustice with God, is there? (AE)May it never be!

 15For He says to Moses, "(AF)I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

["children of the promise..."]

 

 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who (AG)runs, but on (AH)God who has mercy.

 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "(AI)FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He (AJ)hardens whom He desires.

 19(AK)you will say to me then, "(AL)Why does He still find fault? For (AM)who resists His will?"

 20On the contrary, who are you, (AN)O man, who (AO)answers back to God? (AP)The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much (AQ)patience vessels of wrath (AR)prepared for destruction?

 23And He did so to make known (AS)the riches of His glory upon (AT)vessels of mercy, which He (AU)prepared beforehand for glory,

 24even us, whom He also (AV)called, (AW)not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

 25As He says also in Hosea, "(AX)I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"

  26"(AY)AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM 'YOUARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF (AZ)THE LIVING GOD."

 27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "(BA)THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF Israel BE (BB)LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS (BC)THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;

 28(BD)FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY."

 29And just as Isaiah foretold, "(BE)UNLESS (BF)THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY(BG)WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."

 30(BH)What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even (BI)the righteousness which is by faith;

 31but Israel, (BJ)pursuing a law of righteousness, did not (BK)arrive at that law.

 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. they stumbled over (BL)the stumbling stone,

 33just as it is written, "(BM)BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION (BN)A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, (BO)AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM (BP)WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

 

 

Romans 10

[The Word of Faith Brings Salvation]

 1Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.

 2For I testify about them that they have (A)a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

 3For not knowing about (B)God's righteousness and (C)seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

 4For (D)Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to (E)everyone who believes.

 5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law (F)shall live by that righteousness.

 6But (G)the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "(H)DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),

 7or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE (I)ABYSS?' (that is, to (J)bring Christ up from the dead)."

 8But what does it say? "(K)THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

 9that (L)if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and (M)believe in your heart that (N)God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

 11For the Scripture says, "(O)WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

 12For (P)there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is (Q)Lord of (R)all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

 13for "(S)WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

 14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him (T)whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without (U)a preacher?

 15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "(V)HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO (W)BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"

 16However, they (X)did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "(Y)LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"

 17So faith comes from (Z)hearing, and hearing by (AA)the word of Christ.

 18But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "(AB)THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

 19But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, "(AC)I WILL (AD)MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION, BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU."

 20And Isaiah is very bold and says, "(AE)I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME."

 21But as for Israel He says, "(AF)ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."

 

 

Romans 11

[Israel Is Not Cast Away]

 1I say then, God has not (A)rejected His people, has He? (B)May it never be! For (C)I too am an , a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

[According to the FLESH]

 2God (D)has not rejected His people whom He (E)foreknew (F)Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

 3"Lord, (G)THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."

 4But what is the divine response to him? "(H)I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."

 5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time (I)a remnant according to God's gracious choice.

 6But (J)if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

 7What then? What (K)Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were (L)hardened;

 8just as it is written, "(M)GOD GAVE them A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

 9And David says, "(N)LET their TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO them.

  10"(O)LET their EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT, AND BEND their BACKS FOREVER."

 11(P)I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? (Q)May it never be! But by their transgression (R)salvation has come to the Gentiles, to (S)make them jealous.

 12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their (T)fulfillment be!

 13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as (U)I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

 14if somehow I might (V)move to jealousy (W)my fellow countrymen and (X)save some of them.

[Paul's "fellow countrymen" were the Jews.]

 

 15For if their rejection is the (Y)reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but (Z)life from the dead?

 16If the (AA)first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

 17But if some of the (AB)branches were broken off, and (AC)you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that (AD)it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

 19(AE)you will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you (AF)stand by your faith (AG)Do not be conceited, but fear;

 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's (AH)kindness, (AI)if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also (AJ)will be cut off.

 23And they also, (AK)if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

 25For (AL)I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this (AM)mystery--so that you will not be (AN)wise in your own estimation--that a partial (AO)hardening has happened to Israel until the (AP)fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

********

 26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "(AQ)THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."

  27"(AR)THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH them(AS)WHEN I TAKE AWAY their SINS."

 28From the standpoint of the gospel they are (AT)enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for (AU)the sake of the fathers;

 29for the gifts and the (AV)calling of God (AW)are irrevocable.

[Notice that Paul is speaking about the Jews here.]

 

 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,

 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.

 32For (AX)God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

 33Oh, the depth of (AY)the riches both of the (AZ)wisdom and knowledge of God! (BA)How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

 34For (BB)WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?

 35Or (BC)WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?

 36For (BD)from Him and through Him and to Him are all things (BE)To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

 [AMEN and AMEN!]

DG

 

 

22 posted on 12/12/2004 12:31:55 AM PST by DoorGunner (Romans 11:26 "...and so all Israel shall be saved.")
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To: Presby Conservative

This author(ess?) displays a woeful lack of understanding of the Bible, and Eschatology!


23 posted on 12/12/2004 1:06:43 AM PST by LiteKeeper (Secularization of America is happening)
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To: Presby Conservative

Actually God's dealings with Israel are not yet complete. According to the prophecies in Daniel; God's judgement was to befall Israel for 70 Sabatical Weeks or 70 sets of 7 years. After the 69th week (69th set of 7 years) Massiah would be cut -off and there would be a period of time between the 69th and 70th sabatical week. This happened when Christ was crucified on the cross exactly at the end of the 69th week. So God's dealings with Israel still have one more set of 7 years before it is complete. That 7 years is known as the time of Jacob's Trouble in the Old Testament. It is a time of testing and tribulation for Israel and the world just before God's dealings with Israel is complete and Christ returns... also known as the Tribulation. Now that Israel exists again, God's Word can literally be fulfilled once again and finally.


24 posted on 12/12/2004 2:58:49 AM PST by one of His mysterious ways
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To: Presby Conservative

Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai elohenu, Adonai echad!


25 posted on 12/12/2004 11:02:06 AM PST by onedoug
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To: Presby Conservative

I'll leave that judgement to God.


26 posted on 12/12/2004 1:27:07 PM PST by followerofchrist
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To: Presby Conservative
You say:
Old Testament verses in which the Lord promises blessing and protection for Israel. The assumption of many writers, both clergy and laypeople, seems to be that the Israel of the Old Covenant and the modern state of Israel are, if not one and the same, at least equal in God's purview and interest. This line of thinking is quite contrary to the Reformed theological tradition, and most other theological traditions as well. This line of thinking is quite contrary to the Reformed theological tradition, and most other theological traditions as well.

The Biblical Old Testament teachings are in regards to Israel (12 tribes) as a chosen people (not the Jews specifically), with promises of blessings and prosperity (Deut. 23:15), which still holds true today. It is still conditional on obeyance to YHWH's law of the 10 commandments, not the ritual law of sacrifices that was done away with at the cross. With Y'hshua's redemptive work, these promises and blessings are now available for the aliens, strangers, Gentiles, etc. as well. They can all receive the "adoption of sons" and become "an heir of YHWH through Y'hshua". The conditions still are based on accepting Y'hshua as Saviour and obeying the 10 commandments of Exodus 20. Those who obey and do his commandments have always been blessed and will receive the greatest blessing of all by being an heir with Y'hshua in his Kingdom.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Nothing has changed. The name of the game is obey. Obey YHWH's law, not man's traditions, theology, doctrines, false commandments, or whatever other term that exists. The promises are still the same and are conditional on obeyance.

You say:
In the Old Testament, the blessings of God were poured out the Old Covenant people – the Jews

The blessings of YHWH were not poured out just on the Jews. They were poured out on God's people since the days of Adam on down and the blessings are vast and innumerable. Noah was blessed (Gen 9:1). In Gen 12:2 we see that Abraham was blessed and he received the Promise of the Covenant (Gen 12:7) 236 years before Judah was born. The land from the Nile to the Euphrates was to be an inheritance for Isaac and his descendents. The sign of the circumcision was proof of this inheritance. The land where the Iraqui war is currently being fought is over this inheritance. The Palestinians are the Edomites of Esau who lost his right to this land when he sold his inheritance to Jacob (Israel) for a bowl of soup. They've held a grudge against Israel ever since. YHWH hates Esau and loves his people Israel (12 tribes, not just the Jews). Mal. 1:3,4. They are now being ousted out of land that really isn't theirs. So are all the other disobedient non-Christ believing peoples made up of Moabites, Ammonites, Canaanites, and other Muslim and so called Christian groups as well. The blessings were not only for Jews. When we speak about blessings, it is important to be specific and name the blessing, etc.

You say:
In the New Testament, since the Old Covenant has been fulfilled in the incarnation and the veil of the temple torn in two, God's blessing is on the people of the New Covenant, the church.

This new covenant hasn't taken place yet. This is a big misconception that everyone believes to be true. The new covenant will not come into effect until when YHWH joins together the house of Judah and the house of Israel (Ephraim).

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
See also Eze 37:15-28; Jer. 31:33; Eze 36:24; Isa 24:5,6; there are over 50 verses on this topic.

The reunification of the two houses hasn't occurred yet but it won't be long. Now you know the rest of the story --- about the war, that is.

You say:
The nation of Israel has completed its divine purpose by producing the promised Messiah.

The nation of Israel didn't accomplish that. Again you need to be specific. Y'hshua came specifically from the Lion tribe and lawgiver which is Judah (Gen 49:10). Judah is one of the 12 Israelite tribes. Y'hshua did not come from the other 11 tribes, which is what your statement implies.

You say:
The modern state of Israel shares only a name with the Biblical nation of the Hebrews and has no more claim on God's promises and blessing than Paraguay.

The state of Israel is made up of various peoples as I've mentioned earlier. Jews who claim to be Jews but are not will be ousted or destroyed. The same with any other peoples who as I've said do not accept Christ as Saviour and Keep his Commandments.

You say:
Simply stated, in Jesus Christ the church is the new Israel.

Who do you call the church? Mother Babylon, the Evangelicals, etc.? What do you call the new Israel? Does it include only the region of the Oslo Accord? Is Gaza included? What about the West Bank? Is Iraq included? We need specifics.

You say:
Dispensationalism denies the finality of the New Covenant and teaches that God's working with humanity is vested in Israel and that at some future date the temple will be rebuilt, sacrifices reinstituted, and the Law of Moses restored.

As I've pointed out earlier, the New Covenant is not in effect yet. No point in discussing the rest.

You say:
Jesus came to fulfill the Old Covenant, not to interrupt it.

He fulfilled the ritual part of the Mosaic law, which was a shadow of what was to come in Y'hshua's role as Messiah and Redeemer not only of lost house of Israel but for all man-kind.

YHWH Bless You in your search for the TRUTH.

27 posted on 12/12/2004 5:04:41 PM PST by Harrymehome
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To: Mr. Mojo
Why exactly are they doing this? Do they object to Israel defending herself (like the building of the fence, for instance)? Are they offended by Israel's close ties to the Bush Administration?

Er, yes yes and yes. Go to PCUSA.org and use their search function to check out their position on Israel, Sudan, Cuba and a host of other foreign policies. The divestment tactic is something they did at least once before in Sudan. Below is the link to one of the stories and a follow up google of Canada's Talisman Oil Company eventually tells us PCUSA was successful in getting them to move out of doing busines in Sudan because of pressure from stockholders.

Has it changed the situation in Sudan one iota? No.

Prairie

Earlier divestment project

28 posted on 12/16/2004 3:40:23 PM PST by prairiebreeze (It's my right to publically celebrate Christmas and state my faith in Christ. At least for now.....)
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