Posted on 12/12/2004 3:26:17 PM PST by NYer
The Chicago Tribune reports that when some members of Amor de Dios United Methodist Church in an area called Little Village elected to move a statue of the Virgin of Guadalupe into the sanctuary last year, "the icon spawned an exodus."
Turned off by the introduction of a Roman Catholic tradition to a Protestant congregation, most of the church's 15 founding parishioners drifted away. To them, venerating the Virgin Mary and reciting the rosary did not belong in a Methodist church.
But this is part of a trend nationwide: mainline Protestant churches and even some evangelical ones (in places like California, with a strong Mexican populace) are accepting the veneration of statues, which for decades has been misinterpreted as idolatry. Pastors of other Hispanic Methodist congregations objected too. Meanwhile, and curiously,
Roman Catholics in the neighborhood fret that the church might be selling itself as something it was not.
"Rev. Jose Landaverde allowed the statue to stay," reports the newspaper. "He says he sees no harm in embracing a tradition--the Virgin is an unofficial national symbol of Mexico--that might bring people closer to God. 'It's coming from the people, which is the real presence of the Holy Spirit,' said Landaverde, 31, a student pastor from Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary. 'You cannot bring theological debates to the people when they need spiritual assistance.'"
The Tribune reports that this month, parishioners celebrated their first novena in honor of the Virgin of Guadalupe by parading the two-foot-high statue around the neighborhood, singing songs and reciting the rosary. "About two dozen parishioners weathered the chill each night to deliver the statue to a different living room, where it was surrounded by garland, twinkling lights, roses and poinsettias. On Sunday, parishioners will commence the traditional Feast Day for the Virgin of Guadalupe and, through prayers, mariachi music, drama and dancing, pay homage. 'The Virgin understands our suffering and she accompanies us everywhere we go,' said church member Oscar Hernandez, who grew up Roman Catholic in El Salvador but now considers himself a Methodist. 'We don't want to take away the faith that this community has, but we want to nourish it.'"
The parish council discerned that something was missing--the Virgin of Guadalupe.
"Since I was little, it's always been right to have the Virgin Mary in the church," said Olivia Serrato, 40, one of the original parishioners who decided to stay after the Virgin was introduced. "It's now a great honor to bring the Virgin Mary to my Methodist church. Before I didn't feel complete."
She last made an appearance in WWII during an American bombing raid. According to the program I'm watching at the moment on COX Cable one of our pilots reported an aparition of what seemed to be a very tall woman catching bombs and tossing them aside.
This was also reported extensively on the ground.
According to this program Matsu is presently the most venerated goddess in Taiwan. You have to talk directly to Matsu since no one may intervene.
Thai Buddhists regularly report such apparitions as well.
I don't begin to understand these visions and images. However, they seem to be a worldwide phenomenon, and there is quite a bit of commonality in them.
My priest predicted it several weeks before it happened. The other major development was on another Marian holiday.
I used to know some good Episcopalian jokes, but I don't tell them any more . . . too many of them came true. :-(
I'm sure that somewhere some religious scholar has thoroughly examined the situation and used that idea, at least in part, as the basis for the justification of current veneration.
Now this is interesting. What happened 12/8? Or is there another one I missed?
"Now there is something that Catholics (who know their stuff) and Eastern Orthodox can agree."
Oh, I trust there's more than that!
You (and I) ask other mortals to pray for you even people you don't know on internet forums. Why not the most blessed mother of the Word become man?
Souls live in heaven and on earth - which puts us all in communion under the Almighty. To true Catholics, it seems illogical to ask other mortals to pray for us, yet refuse to ask those who exist elsewhere in God's Kingdom to do the same - especially the most blessed woman to ever exist.
There were two decisions. I don't remember what but both fell on Marian feasts.
Oh I agree. I think we have a lot in common (maybe even everything). We just explain things different, which causes problems.
However, to answer your question....Yes, I have participated in many prayer threads. I believe that live people can pray, but I don't see how a dead one can. When one dies, one is no longer of this earth and I don't think they listen to prayers, or why they would be necessary to intermediate.
OK by me if you do. That is why we have a diverse religious community.
The biggy was on the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe on 12/12. I need to now research the other one.
It's perfectly fine to pray to Jesus alone and ask no one else. But since we catholics do believe in "friends in high places" we surely make good use of it and I'm afraid you folks are missing out on a good thing.
Let's say you are personal childhood friends with W and has a direct line to him, he heard your request and is thinking about it. But don't you think it will be wise to also tap on other cabinet ministers that you also know to put in a good word for you in front of W to have your favor granted, faster, or if at all?
Lobbyists do just that, some for good cause, some not. It is a practice that runs across all party lines and different sectors of society and it is an accepted practice. We catholics simply apply the same on a higher plain.
" Yes, I married a preachers kid."
The Greeks have an old saying, "Child of the priest, grandchild of the devil!" :)
The reason is simply that absolutely everybody knows that every artist and engineer relies to an incredible degree on certain genes that he's inherited to make it possible for him to do his work. Without those genes no amount of training will turn you into a painter, architect, design engineer, etc.
Mary was selected directly by God for her mission. Politically she had the correct putative ancestry (being a descendant in the traditional Royal House), but as far as the genes are concerned, unless we want to get into the "what does the term 'fruit of thy loins' really mean in a scientific sense" discussion, it's more nearly correct to discuss her only in terms of "grace". Leonardo certainly was not operating under "grace" from anyone unless it was Rene d'Anjou who fought a war with Padua to capture him and take him to France where the King had built a university just for him. Rene had already served his time as God's annointed on Earth (he was a Cardinal too) when he became the political sponsor of Jeanne d'Arc. The King of France, of course, betrayed Jeanne to the Burgundians and they to the English.
I'm not sure Mary would be too happy about having her name get linked up in a thread of thought that includes burning Jeanne d'Arc at the stake!
Even folks not terribly into Mariology might find that connection a bit rough. So, find another dichotomy to use as an analogy for your argument.
BTW, I know what Catholics mean by "saints", but to your really hard-core, mainstream Protestant traditionalists the saints remain dead in the ground (per various Biblical references). As a consequence, most really don't have a feel for what it is you are doing when you invoke a saint. BTW, Anglicans don't count in this ~ I think they have the same viewpoint on saints that the Pope does.
I'm going to surprise my fellow traditionalist Catholics and say that I have much trouble with apparitions. My mind tends to gravitate toward logic and science. The Catholic church teaches that I don't even have to believe the "dogmatically correct" ones (for lack of a better term).
For me there is one exception - Fatima. How do we explain a modern miracle witnessed by tens of thousands of faithful, not faithful, believers, atheists, communists and journalists?
To this day, there exists little or no credible refutation to what those people witnessed in Portugal. At some point one has to say it becomes illogical to be logical.
GUADALUPE DEVOTION IS CROSSING INTO PROTESTANT DENOMINATIONS
Relic From Guadalupe Tilma to Tour U.S.
The Amazing Truth of Our Lady of Guadalupe
Celebrating 470 years of an ongoing miracle, the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe 1531
Science Stunned by Virgin of Guadalupe´s Eyes
OUR LADY OF GUADALUPE [Read only]
"Oh I agree. I think we have a lot in common (maybe even everything). We just explain things different, which causes problems."
Darn near everything, and the rest can probably be "nuanced" (don't you hate that word?) by people far smarter and certainly more holy than me. A group of RCs and we Orthodox have been discussing these issues, including the language issue on other threads off and on for some months now.
I think for now, I will stick to my single email addy.
But the network idea is interesting. I wonder if anyone has researched which one is more effective.:-)
You do know that the problem with reunification is don't you. Lot's of Latin Rite Catholics running east to avoid the liturgical abuses under which we suffer.
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