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METHODIST CHURCH DISPLAYS VIRGIN OF GUADALUPE
Spirit Daily ^ | December 12, 2004 | Mike Brown

Posted on 12/12/2004 3:26:17 PM PST by NYer

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To: AnAmericanMother
And when your frame of reference is daily communication as an ideal and once every Sunday as a minimum requirement, four times a month just doesn't seem like much. < g >

I understand. What many United Methodists have been striving to recover -- i.e., weekly communion as a norm rather than an exception -- would be the barest minimum for you. Hey ... it's far superior to the mid-20th-century norm of once a month (or, even worse, once a quarter). In 15 years of active, ordained ministry (in North Carolina and North Texas) I have never served as the pastor of a church where the Eucharist was offered only once a quarter, but I've heard of such congregations. Based upon a study I saw in the mid 1990s it would appear that nearly 60% of all UM churches offer the Eucharist once a month, while about 40% offer the Eucharist more frequently than once a month. Those that offer the Eucharist less frequently than once a month comprise less than 1% of our churches, world wide. In 1997 nearly 20% of UM congregations made Holy Communion available every Sunday in at least one service. Based upon my own experience, I would guess that the figure is closer to 25% by now. I know, for my own part, that I've taken two UM churches from once a month to every Sunday.
151 posted on 12/23/2004 11:05:29 AM PST by TexasGreg ("Democrats Piss Me Off")
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To: NYer
But this is part of a trend nationwide: mainline Protestant churches and even some evangelical ones (in places like California, with a strong Mexican populace) are accepting the veneration of statues, which for decades has been misinterpreted as idolatry. Pastors of other Hispanic Methodist congregations objected too. Meanwhile, and curiously,

I will bet not one that comes from the Reformation . We still do not do icons ...

It would not be a surprise in the counter reformation churches.. they have always been on the way back to Rome.

Merry Christmas NYer hope our ice does not head your way !

152 posted on 12/23/2004 11:16:06 AM PST by RnMomof7 (because I'm good enough , and smart enough and darn it I deserve it ")
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To: RnMomof7
Merry Christmas NYer hope our ice does not head your way !

Welcome back!, Mom. Haven't seen you around the forum for a while. No threat of ice for us. After two days of sub-zero temperatures, it warmed up just in time to dump lots of rain. Tomorrow, the sun returns and the temps drop again ... lol!

Christmas Blessings! to you and your family.

153 posted on 12/23/2004 11:32:24 AM PST by NYer ("Blessed be He who by His love has given life to all." - final prayer of St. Charbel)
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To: RnMomof7

Well ... I use icons for decoration purposes; they are beautiful artworks. And, they also have a teaching function. :)


154 posted on 12/23/2004 11:32:36 AM PST by TexasGreg ("Democrats Piss Me Off")
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To: TexasGreg
I was raised in the Episcopal Church (South), back when the regular Sunday service was Morning Prayer and Communion was offered once a month.

Of course, at that time it was a VERY long service -- the entire Decalogue was chanted (and the congregation was expected to respond (in chant) after each Commandment: "Lord have mercy upon us, and incline our hearts to keep this Law." And if the kids weren't yet confirmed, they marched them out during the Offertory.

When the Episcopal prayerbook was revised in the '70s, it became much more consciously patterned on the Catholic model, with the Eucharist becoming the standard Sunday service. That started the trend of the Episcopal churches moving away from the Protestant fold and over towards the Catholics.

We started going to a High Episcopal parish after we got married 27 years ago (it was the church around the corner.) One thing led to another, and when ECUSA went stark staring mad last August, we joined our local Catholic parish.

155 posted on 12/23/2004 11:43:46 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: TexasGreg
Well ... I use icons for decoration purposes; they are beautiful artworks. And, they also have a teaching function. :)

But then your church did not come out of the Reformation and that was after all my point ...

156 posted on 12/23/2004 11:52:44 AM PST by RnMomof7 (because I'm good enough , and smart enough and darn it I deserve it ")
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To: RnMomof7
But then your church did not come out of the Reformation and that was after all my point ...

That's a debatable issue. The United Methodist Church's predecessor denomination, the Methodist Episcopal Church, was formed due to political pressures surrounding the American Revolution and the need for ordained clergy at the close of the war. Following the Treaty of Paris in 1781, the Church of England refused to provide Bishops and ordained clergy for the new United States, so in 1784 John Wesley took it upon himself to provide that by consecrating Coke a Superintendent ("Bishop") and sending him to America to establish the Methodist Episcopal Church. So, in a strict historical sense, you're correct ... the United Methodist Church today has it's roots in the Church of England, but broke off due to political, not theological, issues.

However, the Methodist reform movement is very much a part of the Protestant Reformation in the sense that John and Charles Wesley, and most of the Methodists in their day, were Arminians. While certainly a hybrid denomination -- incorporating elements of Protestantism and Catholicism -- it is correct to locate the Methodist Evangelical reform within the theological stream flowing from the Protestant Reformation. Otherwise, in terms of church government (i.e. Episcopal polity) and Sacramentology, we're certainly more Catholic than we are Protestant.
157 posted on 12/23/2004 2:08:54 PM PST by TexasGreg ("Democrats Piss Me Off")
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Comment #158 Removed by Moderator

To: TexasGreg

Wesley was an arminian / a protester against the reformation doctrine not Catholicism ...it was a step back to Rome .

Wesley was no friend of Reform Doctrine, ask Whitfield , sorry


159 posted on 12/23/2004 3:00:33 PM PST by RnMomof7 (because I'm good enough , and smart enough and darn it I deserve it ")
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To: Floyd R Turbo
Don't forget the rest of the discussion about Luther on this subject:

Thanks!


160 posted on 12/23/2004 3:31:34 PM PST by NYer ("Blessed be He who by His love has given life to all." - final prayer of St. Charbel)
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To: RnMomof7
Wesley was no friend of Reform Doctrine, ask Whitfield , sorry

Well ... if your understanding of the Protestant Reformation is so narrow that it cannot see Arminianism (i.e., 2-point Calvinism) as part of the Reformation stream, then of course that would be your view.

I'm sorry to be disagreeable, but Wesleyan-Arminianism is most definitely part of the Protestant stream of theological thought. Is it lock-step in line with 5-point Supralapsarian Calvinism or mainland-European Lutheranism? No. It's not. But, then, those are NOT the only form of the Protestant Reformation.

This being said, I much prefer to think of myself, and Methodism, as a form of Protestant Catholicism.
161 posted on 12/23/2004 3:41:36 PM PST by TexasGreg ("Democrats Piss Me Off")
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To: TexasGreg
I'm sorry to be disagreeable, but Wesleyan-Arminianism is most definitely part of the Protestant stream of theological thought. Is it lock-step in line with 5-point Supralapsarian Calvinism or mainland-European Lutheranism? No. It's not. But, then, those are NOT the only form of the Protestant Reformation.

Yes they were and are. The doctrines of the Reformation are not Arminian or Wesleyan. Those doctrines followed later in an attempt to undermine Calvinism and return to some of the basic Jesuits teachings. They protest the protesters not Catholic doctrine.

This being said, I much prefer to think of myself, and Methodism, as a form of Protestant Catholicism.

You make my point over and over pastor. You are right , that is a good description for your denomination, and why the idea of having icons ( idols) in your church , does not shock your sensibilities.

Arminianism was a protest over the reformation , not Catholicism . Arminians and Wesleyans are not protestants they are simply not Catholic ... and from your words perhaps not too happy about the distance that remains

162 posted on 12/23/2004 5:36:50 PM PST by RnMomof7 (because I'm good enough , and smart enough and darn it I deserve it ")
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To: RnMomof7
Yes they were and are. The doctrines of the Reformation are not Arminian or Wesleyan. Those doctrines followed later in an attempt to undermine Calvinism and return to some of the basic Jesuits teachings.

Jacob Arminus and John Wesley were attempting to "return to some of the basic Jesuit teachings?" FOFLMHO ... wow ... what a self-revealing statement on your part. Where were you educated? Under whom did you study? What are your theological credentials? You betray the narrow limits of your training if you think that an attempt to pull hyper-Calvinism back from the brink of extremist heresy was, somehow, an attempt to "return to some of the basic Jesuits teachings."

...and why the idea of having icons ( idols) in your church , does not shock your sensibilities.

I no where stated that there are icons in my church. I said I have icons for decoration -- religious decoration. I did NOT say where.

Now that I think about it, there are some iconic elements in my church's stain-glassed windows. But, that's also true of First Baptist down the street. GASP!

Arminianism was a protest over the reformation , not Catholicism .

Arminianism was a protest over the EXTREMES of the Calvinist Reformation. Given that some those very same Calvinists dug up his dead body, tried him, and burned his dead bones illustrates the error of their extremes.

Arminians and Wesleyans are not protestants...

Wrong. John Wesley's Methodist revival was protesting the spiritual death of the Church of England in his day -- the refusal of priests to preach a conversion message, the lack of the means of grace in Anglican Worship, and the unwillingness of the church to reach out to where the people were with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It was a protest WITHIN the reformation of the dead-ness of certain elements of the Anglican branch of the Reformation. And, in this respect, it was part of the reason why such Calvinist Anglicans as George Whitefield joined him in his efforts.

...they are simply not Catholic ...

Also wrong. In an ironic sense, Wesley affirmed being of a "true Catholic Spirit" but not "Popish." BIG difference ... particularly in his day.

... and from your words perhaps not too happy about the distance that remains

I do pray for the unity of the Body of Christ, and that includes with my sisters and brothers in the Roman Catholic Church. In your zeal to brand Wesleyan-Arminianism as not being part of the Protestant Reformation you overlook those elements within Roman Catholicism which Anglicanism and Methodist Anglicanism actually protested in their day.
163 posted on 12/23/2004 11:36:53 PM PST by TexasGreg ("Democrats Piss Me Off")
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To: TexasGreg
As you can tell I have no desire for unity in the church , there is way too much error . I want no part of a works based salvation , not even if they are "nice" people .

Jacob Arminus and John Wesley were attempting to "return to some of the basic Jesuit teachings?" FOFLMHO ... wow ... what a self-revealing statement on your part. Where were you educated? Under whom did you study? What are your theological credentials? You betray the narrow limits of your training if you think that an attempt to pull hyper-Calvinism back from the brink of extremist heresy was, somehow, an attempt to "return to some of the basic Jesuits teachings."

Can we site a former benefactor of Wesley in the discussion?

Is not this too the very language of modern Arminianism? Do not the partizans of that scheme argue on the same identical terms? Should it be said, "True, this proves that Arminianism is Pelagianism revived; but it does not prove, that the doctrines of Arminianism are originally Popish:" a moment's cool attention will make it plain that they are. Let us again hear Mr. Bower, who, after the passage just quoted, immediately adds, "on these two last propositions, the Jesuits found their whole system of grace and free-will; agreeing therein with the Semipelagians, against the Jansenists and St. Augustine."6 The Jesuits were moulded into a regular body, towards the middle of the sixteenth century: toward the close of the same century, Arminius began to infest the Protestant churches. It needs therefore no great penetration, to discern from what source he drew his poison. His journey to Rome (though Monsicur Bayle affects to make light of the inferences which were at that very time deduced from it) was not for nothing. If, however, any are disposed to believe, that Arminius imbibed his doctrines from the Socinians in Poland, with whom, it is certain, he was on terms of intimate friendship, I have no objection to splitting the difference: he might import some of his tenets from the Racovian brethren, and yet be indebted, for others, to the disciples of Loyola.
Toplady

Arminianism was a protest over the EXTREMES of the Calvinist Reformation. Given that some those very same Calvinists dug up his dead body, tried him, and burned his dead bones illustrates the error of their extreme

He was a liar that had to use deception to teach his doctrine( much as Wesley slandered his "friend" Whitfield) .... look to the roots.

The fact is that Wesleyans/Arminians do not hold 2 points of the tulip as you posted yesterday .

We hold only the most basic of Christian salvation doctrine in common . The tulip emerged as a response to the Arminians who chose these five points to oppose. ( Remonstrants)
So to say that we share 2 is disingenuous at the very least .

Protestants protested the Roman church , not other reformation churches.

In your zeal to brand Wesleyan-Arminianism as not being part of the Protestant Reformation you overlook those elements within Roman Catholicism which Anglicanism and Methodist Anglicanism actually protested in their day.

Foolishness. The Wesleyan/Arminians were already OUT of the Roman church when they "protested". They protested the protesters...and you know that is true. They came closer to Roman doctrine not further away .

True protestants are the sons of the reformation in doctrine, the rest are simply non Catholic ( and wanted to move closer it seems)

BTW this is not a "personal discussion...I never argue seriously with another mac user :>)

164 posted on 12/24/2004 11:01:06 AM PST by RnMomof7 (because I'm good enough , and smart enough and darn it I deserve it ")
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To: RnMomof7

Have a Merry Christmas
Clearly, I shouldn't bother you with facts or argument; your mind is made up, and no amount of discussion or presentation of POVs will convince you that your conception is in error.

So ... Have a Merry Christmas. I have a glorious Savior to be thankful for and serve, and too much to do to get further drawn into a fight ... theological or otherwise ... today.


165 posted on 12/24/2004 2:42:59 PM PST by TexasGreg ("Democrats Piss Me Off")
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To: TexasGreg
Clearly, I shouldn't bother you with facts or argument; your mind is made up, and no amount of discussion or presentation of POVs will convince you that your conception is in error.

I tend to look at a response like this and see it as retreat :>)

I was a Wesleyan before I was a Calvinist. I am not a stranger to the doctrinal differences or church history, so the discussion is always interesting to me .

You have a blessed Christmas also Peace! .

166 posted on 12/24/2004 3:05:57 PM PST by RnMomof7 (because I'm good enough , and smart enough and darn it I deserve it ")
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To: RnMomof7
I tend to look at a response like this and see it as retreat :>)

Hardly. In this case, it's Christmas Eve. I still had two services to do when I posted earlier -- now it's one down and one still to go. To put this bluntly, I don't desire being distracted from the much more important duty of preaching the Gospel by the never-ending debate between Calvinists and Arminians. But ... if you want to interpret my statement as being a retreat, you're more than welcome to do so. The simple truth is, I have more important things to do than to attempt to convince you -- or anyone else, for that matter -- that Arminianism is NOT Pelagianism.

I'd better close this before I swerve into a foul mood ... being painted as a dirty stinking heretic (i.e., a Pelagian) tends to do that to me. I'm NOT a Pelagian, I'm a 2 point Calvinist (in other words, an Arminian). If you disagree then you don't know as much about Wesleyan Arminianism as you think you do.
167 posted on 12/24/2004 7:29:15 PM PST by TexasGreg ("Democrats Piss Me Off")
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To: NYer

Merry Christmas.


168 posted on 12/24/2004 7:35:17 PM PST by Baraonda (Demographic is destiny. Don't hire 3rd world illegal aliens nor support businesses that hire them.)
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To: Baraonda
Christmas Blessings to you and your family!
169 posted on 12/24/2004 11:28:06 PM PST by NYer ("Blessed be He who by His love has given life to all." - final prayer of St. Charbel)
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To: NYer; All
American Catholic’s Saint of the Day

 

December 12, 2006
Our Lady of Guadalupe

The feast in honor of Our Lady of Guadalupe goes back to the sixteenth century. Chronicles of that period tell us the story.

A poor Indian named Cuauhtlatohuac was baptized and given the name Juan Diego. He was a 57-year-old widower and lived in a small village near Mexico City. On Saturday morning, December 9, 1531, he was on his way to a nearby barrio to attend Mass in honor of Our Lady.

He was walking by a hill called Tepeyac when he heard beautiful music like the warbling of birds. A radiant cloud appeared and within it a young Native American maiden dressed like an Aztec princess. The lady spoke to him in his own language and sent him to the bishop of Mexico, a Franciscan named Juan de Zumarraga. The bishop was to build a chapel in the place where the lady appeared.

Eventually the bishop told Juan Diego to have the lady give him a sign. About this same time Juan Diego’s uncle became seriously ill. This led poor Diego to try to avoid the lady. The lady found Diego, nevertheless, assured him that his uncle would recover and provided roses for Juan to carry to the bishop in his cape or tilma.

When Juan Diego opened his tilma in the bishop’s presence, the roses fell to the ground and the bishop sank to his knees. On Juan Diego’s tilma appeared an image of Mary as she had appeared at the hill of Tepeyac. It was December 12, 1531.

Comment:

Mary's appearance to Juan Diego as one of his people is a powerful reminder that Mary and the God who sent her accept all peoples. In the context of the sometimes rude and cruel treatment of the Indians by the Spaniards, the apparition was a rebuke to the Spaniards and an event of vast significance for Native Americans. While a number of them had converted before this incident, they now came in droves. According to a contemporary chronicler, nine million Indians became Catholic in a very short time. In these days when we hear so much about God's preferential option for the poor, Our Lady of Guadalupe cries out to us that God's love for and identification with the poor is an age-old truth that stems from the Gospel itself.

Quote:

Mary to Juan Diego: “My dearest son, I am the eternal Virgin Mary, Mother of the true God, Author of Life, Creator of all and Lord of the Heavens and of the Earth...and it is my desire that a church be built here in this place for me, where, as your most merciful Mother and that of all your people, I may show my loving clemency and the compassion that I bear to the Indians, and to those who love and seek me...” (from an ancient chronicle).



170 posted on 12/12/2006 9:54:27 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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