Skip to comments.METHODIST CHURCH DISPLAYS VIRGIN OF GUADALUPE
Posted on 12/12/2004 3:26:17 PM PST by NYer
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The biggy was on the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe on 12/12. I need to now research the other one.
It's perfectly fine to pray to Jesus alone and ask no one else. But since we catholics do believe in "friends in high places" we surely make good use of it and I'm afraid you folks are missing out on a good thing.
Let's say you are personal childhood friends with W and has a direct line to him, he heard your request and is thinking about it. But don't you think it will be wise to also tap on other cabinet ministers that you also know to put in a good word for you in front of W to have your favor granted, faster, or if at all?
Lobbyists do just that, some for good cause, some not. It is a practice that runs across all party lines and different sectors of society and it is an accepted practice. We catholics simply apply the same on a higher plain.
" Yes, I married a preachers kid."
The Greeks have an old saying, "Child of the priest, grandchild of the devil!" :)
The reason is simply that absolutely everybody knows that every artist and engineer relies to an incredible degree on certain genes that he's inherited to make it possible for him to do his work. Without those genes no amount of training will turn you into a painter, architect, design engineer, etc.
Mary was selected directly by God for her mission. Politically she had the correct putative ancestry (being a descendant in the traditional Royal House), but as far as the genes are concerned, unless we want to get into the "what does the term 'fruit of thy loins' really mean in a scientific sense" discussion, it's more nearly correct to discuss her only in terms of "grace". Leonardo certainly was not operating under "grace" from anyone unless it was Rene d'Anjou who fought a war with Padua to capture him and take him to France where the King had built a university just for him. Rene had already served his time as God's annointed on Earth (he was a Cardinal too) when he became the political sponsor of Jeanne d'Arc. The King of France, of course, betrayed Jeanne to the Burgundians and they to the English.
I'm not sure Mary would be too happy about having her name get linked up in a thread of thought that includes burning Jeanne d'Arc at the stake!
Even folks not terribly into Mariology might find that connection a bit rough. So, find another dichotomy to use as an analogy for your argument.
BTW, I know what Catholics mean by "saints", but to your really hard-core, mainstream Protestant traditionalists the saints remain dead in the ground (per various Biblical references). As a consequence, most really don't have a feel for what it is you are doing when you invoke a saint. BTW, Anglicans don't count in this ~ I think they have the same viewpoint on saints that the Pope does.
I'm going to surprise my fellow traditionalist Catholics and say that I have much trouble with apparitions. My mind tends to gravitate toward logic and science. The Catholic church teaches that I don't even have to believe the "dogmatically correct" ones (for lack of a better term).
For me there is one exception - Fatima. How do we explain a modern miracle witnessed by tens of thousands of faithful, not faithful, believers, atheists, communists and journalists?
To this day, there exists little or no credible refutation to what those people witnessed in Portugal. At some point one has to say it becomes illogical to be logical.
"Oh I agree. I think we have a lot in common (maybe even everything). We just explain things different, which causes problems."
Darn near everything, and the rest can probably be "nuanced" (don't you hate that word?) by people far smarter and certainly more holy than me. A group of RCs and we Orthodox have been discussing these issues, including the language issue on other threads off and on for some months now.
I think for now, I will stick to my single email addy.
But the network idea is interesting. I wonder if anyone has researched which one is more effective.:-)
You do know that the problem with reunification is don't you. Lot's of Latin Rite Catholics running east to avoid the liturgical abuses under which we suffer.
Where in the Mass is Mary elevated over Jesus? I ask this as a Catholic who doesn't and has never seen that. Am I missing something?
As a very traditional, hard-core, "no idols for me" type Protestant, I find that I cannot reject out of hand the Marian aparitions. There's something going on here, and it happens to Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Confucians and so forth. Even the Koran mysteriously contains a very elaborate Praise of Mary. If you think you have troubles with this, imagine the problems your typical Imam has! (ROTFLMAO)
Don't they still have Guy Fawkes Day?
When did you see "the elevation of Mary" during Holy Mass?
These folks are obviously still clinging to their Catholic roots. They need to find a Roman Catholic parish to join. They are not theologically Protestant, why are they going to a Methodist church?
Yes we do,(some of the language is changed a bit), as I mentioned earlier.
Not all UMC churches do this.
I did not criticize your religion. I was explaining why the Virgin will not be acceptable in a UMC church. It and other iconic stuff in the Catholic and subsequently the Anglican Church is a big part of the reason Methodists left in the first place.
For you Catholics; why do you need the mother to draw you to the son? Aren't you drawn to Him already?
You've lost me! I don't understand. Sorry.
How sad that some feel they can't pray directly to God. They put all these obstacles in front of Him. What? Is He too busy to hear their prayers?
When did you see a Catholic church without a statue of Mary?
I am not saying that Catholics, as our Jewish brethren, do not acknowledge Jesus as God, only that his name is not a big part of the service as it is in a protestant church.
You are responding to what another poster said as a question and now I gotta FReep my way though a bunch of bent out of shape Catholics to post about a protestant church thread which is really getting irritating.
Too put it simply if we were all one church again, There would be no empty parking spaces in the churches that had the Divine Liturgy because of all the refugees from the Novus Ordo.
Ah! I suspect, with all due respect, that you are probably right. On the other hand, we'd have to expand the parking lot here; already full most Sundays!
I'd be one of the first over. I love the old Latin Mass, but if my choice is the new one, which seems like something even Marin Luther could love, or your Liturgy of Saint John C (I won't try to spell it right now because I'll mess it up) well.... no contest.
Mary is the Mother of Jesus, we are His brothers and sisters, so Mary is our Mother as well. Though she did not physically give birth to us, she gave Jesus the Sacred Body of which we have become members (Ephesians 5:29). We are all united to the very same Flesh which Jesus drew from the Virgin, so she is, in a very real sense, our Mother in the order of the Redemption.
Catholics know that Jesus is God and Mary is not. Therefore our devotion to her does not overshadow her Son.
In the course of your working career, have you ever asked for a raise in pay? Was this addressed to the CEO or your boss, who 'interceded' on your behalf.
Catholics pray to Jesus; occasionally we also ask our 'friends' for assistance, since they are already in the Kingdom of Heaven.
When a protestant accepts Jesus as his/her Saviour, the relationship becomes personal since he died for "My" sins, not "our" sins.
I think that might be the difficulty in understanding. But, it is a small one for me, I accept the differences. Others may take it more personal, but I don't.
I just want to be more like Him. I prefer the more personal relationship. But that is just me. On the other hand,it seems logical to have plenty of help.
Catholic Christian belief in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist rests upon the literal meaning of the words of the Last Supper as recorded by the Evangelists and Paul.
The uniformity of expression across the first four authors affirms the literalness. Belief in the real presence demands faith--the basis of new life as called for by Christ throughout scripture. But faith in signs conferring what they signify is the basis also for the Incarnation--appearances belying true meaning. The true significance of the real presence is sealed in John's gospel. Five times in different expressions, Jesus confirmed the reality of what he means.
The best way a person can make a clear literal point is repetition of the same message in different ways. Jesus did this. Those around him clearly understood what he was saying--cannibalism and the drinking of blood--both forbidden by Mosaic Law.
Had these disciples mistaken the meaning of Jesus' words, Jesus would surely have known and corrected them. He didn't. They had clearly understood his meaning--Jesus' flesh was to be really eaten; his blood to be really drunk.
I was at a dog trial this weekend, sponsored by our local agility club so I attended both days.
I used the wonderful resource MassTimes.org to find a nearby church so I wouldn't miss Mass. Found a church less than two miles away from the trial venue . . . and they had a 7:30 a.m. Mass! Great, I thought . . . I'll hit the "quickie" Mass and be in and out in time for the first Sunday. Famous last words . . .
I show up and the place is JAMMED . . . I mean cars are streaming in and out, the parking lot is full . . . find a spot in a distant corner and head down to the church. I hear drums . . . The courtyard between the church and parish hall is full of people, and in the middle are a bunch of people in elaborate feather costumes with headdresses, beating drums and playing flutes.
It's a Hispanic parish, and they're finishing up an all-night Vigil in honor of the Virgin de Guadalupe, and it's a full Festival Mass with all the trimmings (including a gorgeous larger-than-life-size statue of the Virgin as she appeared to Juan Diego.)
In for a penny - in for a pound - fortunately I hit the English Mass and not the Spanish one. And I only missed one class. And my dog got three qualifying scores. :-D
Actually they don't. The old prayers specifically for Guy Fawkes day have been removed from the prayerbook. They were pretty pointedly anti-Catholic, and since the Oxford Movement there has been a strong group in the Anglican Church seeking, if not reunion with Rome, at least a thawing of relations.
Funny thing . . . as a former Anglican I still am settling in to my new Catholic parish (haven't even been there a year yet). We were in choir practice, and somebody mentioned Guy Fawkes day. I looked up and grinned and said, "Hey! I get to cheer for the other side now!" About half the folks in the room knew what I was talking about and laughed -- the other half are like, "these nutty Episcopalians, what is she talking about?"
"These folks are obviously still clinging to their Catholic roots. They need to find a Roman Catholic parish to join. They are not theologically Protestant, why are they going to a Methodist church?"
"In this much to be desired exchange of valuables, Methodists might consider taking the Rosary into their system. Not many know that John Wesley himself used the rosary, and the one he used is at present among the archives of The Leys School, Cambridge."
Maybe they are closer to Methodist roots than you think.
Excellent point; it was my reason for looking 'east'. The Catholic Church is both Western and Eastern. Vatican II Council declared that "all should realize it is of supreme importance to understand, venerate, preserve, and foster the exceedingly rich liturgical and spiritual heritage of the Eastern churches, in order faithfully to preserve the fullness of Christian tradition" (Unitatis Redintegrato, 15). Pope John Paul II said that "the Catholic Church is both Eastern and Western."
As most of us realize, the Church began in the East. Our Lord lived and died and resurrected in the Holy Land. The Church spread from Jerusalem throughout the known world. As the Church spread, it encountered different cultures and adapted, retaining from each culture what was consistent with the Gospel. In the city of Alexandria, the Church became very Egyptian; in Antioch it remained very Jewish; in Rome it took on an Italian appearance and in the Constantinople it took on the trappings of the Roman imperial court. All the churches which developed this way were Eastern, except Rome. Most Catholics in the United States have their roots in Western Europe where the Roman rite predominated. It has been said that the Eastern Catholic Churches are "the best kept secret in the Catholic Church."
Several of us in the forum are Roman Catholics who have chosen to celebrate the Divine Liturgy at an Eastern Catholic Church. You can learn more about the different liturgies at this link:
To locate an Eastern Catholic Church in your community, go here:
Should you decide to 'test the waters', learn as much as possible ahead of time, about how that particular liturgy is celebrated so you won't feel awkward. For example, in the Western traditions, genuflection is considered the proper form of respect. In the Eastern traditions, it is the profound bow. We bow towards the Tabernacle, at the Trisagion prayer, we bow our heads during the Consecration and we bow after receiving communion. Most important, however, we must recognize that liturgy is the prime way through which the Eastern Traditions "do catechesis," that is, teach the Faith.
Communion is by intinction - the priest dips the consecrated host into the Precious Blood and then places it on the tongue of the communicant. There is no communion in the hand and no EEMs.
It is also a common practice in the Eastern Churches to join together as a community, after the Divine Liturgy. Refreshments are served and the community gathers for conversation. We become an extended family to each other. The priest makes a point of circulating among his parishioners, just like a loving father does with his family.
We also come together for various events throughout the year - cleaning the church, preparing for festivals, making pilgrimages.
And, if you go, plan on attending the Divine Liturgy at least 3 times. Though 'prepared', my first experience was filled with distractions (when to stand, sit, etc.), the 2nd visit was an adjustment to the chanted responses; by the 3rd visit, I felt more comfortable and could now participate at the liturgy. By the 3rd visit, children were waving and adults were smiling, acknowledging me as a 'member' of their community. I was home!
Praying to Mary is not a Lutheran tradition.
I hear that some pray the rosary.
Doctrine has also converged a little bit, most notably with the Joint Declaration on Justification signed a few years ago.
Veneration of the image on the tilma doesn't require the recitation of the rosary.
You might want to do some googling on the image and the scientific analysis surrounding its origin. The image is clearly miraculous in origin. Since the image was instrumental in the conversion of the native Americans and their barbaric religious practices, it could not be the work of the devil.
Jesus merits worship. Mary merits veneration.
Mary said, My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed" (Luke 1:47-48)
Another example is the problematic word, pray. Years ago, the word pray meant "to ask." Now it connotes worship as much as anything.
When Catholics say, "we pray to the saints," what we are saying is that we are asking the saints to pray for us, "to ask God" for us, just as we ask fellow Christians "to ask God for us" here below.
Have you ever asked a Methodist to pray for you?
If that's OK, why not ask the saints in heaven to pray for you too? After all, they're more alive than we are.
Jesus is God. Mary is His mother.
the four living creatures and the twentyfour elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
". . .we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses . . ."
1 Corinthians 11:23-30
For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me. In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me. For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
Veneration of statues? What kind of nut would venerate a chunk of plaster? Sloppy or deliberate wording by the author.
I have never asked anyone to pray for me, as I have never asked anyone for a gift. (except as a child from Santa)
While I appreciate the furtherance of my understanding of the Saint and the act of veneration, my religious training and my understanding of the afterlife and God preclude me from this concept.
I would hope that all Catholics, Anglicans and Lutherans along with others who speak to or with Saints and inanimate objects would also accept that I do not and cannot. And that I view it as a unnecessary complication at the very least.
I do not, and should not even say what images it brings to my minds eye when I think about it.
But, at least I have improved my sense of understanding regarding this issue. I would hope the feeling is mutual.
My wife is from a much more "open" background (they have Buddhists in the family), and mine is good old fashioned, cut and dried, Christian Church ~ so she joined in with our friends (to a degree), and I stood at the back of the room with the Moslems!
"In that day they will not do the burnt offering...." ~~ and that's after the Messiah comes.
I've often wondered if a Jew had been present if he'd participated in the burnt offering, or join the hard-core Christian "fundies" and the Moslems at the back of the room. Any guesses?
(NOTE: It's the same burnt offering made for the same purposes as in the good old days ~ here a banana became the substitute sacrifice ~ a really good banana too, selected from a select position on a large bunch ~ a regular ol' "first fruits" type of fruit).