Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

METHODIST CHURCH DISPLAYS VIRGIN OF GUADALUPE
Spirit Daily ^ | December 12, 2004 | Mike Brown

Posted on 12/12/2004 3:26:17 PM PST by NYer

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-170 next last
To: Nov3
There were two decisions. I don't remember what but both fell on Marian feasts.

The biggy was on the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe on 12/12. I need to now research the other one.

51 posted on 12/12/2004 6:22:00 PM PST by NeoCaveman (There is no dufu but DUFU and PJ Comix is its writer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: Cold Heat; NYer
What I will say is that Methodist's pray directly to Jesus who is God's only son and is both human and God.

It's perfectly fine to pray to Jesus alone and ask no one else. But since we catholics do believe in "friends in high places" we surely make good use of it and I'm afraid you folks are missing out on a good thing.

Let's say you are personal childhood friends with W and has a direct line to him, he heard your request and is thinking about it. But don't you think it will be wise to also tap on other cabinet ministers that you also know to put in a good word for you in front of W to have your favor granted, faster, or if at all?

Lobbyists do just that, some for good cause, some not. It is a practice that runs across all party lines and different sectors of society and it is an accepted practice. We catholics simply apply the same on a higher plain.

52 posted on 12/12/2004 6:23:15 PM PST by m4629
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Cold Heat

" Yes, I married a preachers kid."

The Greeks have an old saying, "Child of the priest, grandchild of the devil!" :)


53 posted on 12/12/2004 6:24:55 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: sitetest
Ah, yes, the Leonardo Da Vinci/Mona Lisa dichotomy, and could we have one without the other ~ it's really not a terribly good item to use in the discussion of Marian Veneration.

The reason is simply that absolutely everybody knows that every artist and engineer relies to an incredible degree on certain genes that he's inherited to make it possible for him to do his work. Without those genes no amount of training will turn you into a painter, architect, design engineer, etc.

Mary was selected directly by God for her mission. Politically she had the correct putative ancestry (being a descendant in the traditional Royal House), but as far as the genes are concerned, unless we want to get into the "what does the term 'fruit of thy loins' really mean in a scientific sense" discussion, it's more nearly correct to discuss her only in terms of "grace". Leonardo certainly was not operating under "grace" from anyone unless it was Rene d'Anjou who fought a war with Padua to capture him and take him to France where the King had built a university just for him. Rene had already served his time as God's annointed on Earth (he was a Cardinal too) when he became the political sponsor of Jeanne d'Arc. The King of France, of course, betrayed Jeanne to the Burgundians and they to the English.

I'm not sure Mary would be too happy about having her name get linked up in a thread of thought that includes burning Jeanne d'Arc at the stake!

Even folks not terribly into Mariology might find that connection a bit rough. So, find another dichotomy to use as an analogy for your argument.

54 posted on 12/12/2004 6:25:20 PM PST by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother

BTW, I know what Catholics mean by "saints", but to your really hard-core, mainstream Protestant traditionalists the saints remain dead in the ground (per various Biblical references). As a consequence, most really don't have a feel for what it is you are doing when you invoke a saint. BTW, Anglicans don't count in this ~ I think they have the same viewpoint on saints that the Pope does.


55 posted on 12/12/2004 6:27:30 PM PST by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: muawiyah
I don't begin to understand these visions and images. However, they seem to be a worldwide phenomenon, and there is quite a bit of commonality in them.

I'm going to surprise my fellow traditionalist Catholics and say that I have much trouble with apparitions. My mind tends to gravitate toward logic and science. The Catholic church teaches that I don't even have to believe the "dogmatically correct" ones (for lack of a better term).

For me there is one exception - Fatima. How do we explain a modern miracle witnessed by tens of thousands of faithful, not faithful, believers, atheists, communists and journalists?

To this day, there exists little or no credible refutation to what those people witnessed in Portugal. At some point one has to say it becomes illogical to be logical.

56 posted on 12/12/2004 6:27:39 PM PST by AAABEST (Lord have mercy on us)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: NYer
METHODIST CHURCH DISPLAYS VIRGIN OF GUADALUPE

GUADALUPE DEVOTION IS CROSSING INTO PROTESTANT DENOMINATIONS

 
A Novena to Our Lady of Guadalupe

Relic From Guadalupe Tilma to Tour U.S.

The Amazing Truth of Our Lady of Guadalupe

Our Lady Of Guadalupe

Celebrating 470 years of an ongoing miracle, the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe 1531

Science Stunned by Virgin of Guadalupe´s Eyes

OUR LADY OF GUADALUPE [Read only]


57 posted on 12/12/2004 6:28:00 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dubyaismypresident

"Oh I agree. I think we have a lot in common (maybe even everything). We just explain things different, which causes problems."

Darn near everything, and the rest can probably be "nuanced" (don't you hate that word?) by people far smarter and certainly more holy than me. A group of RCs and we Orthodox have been discussing these issues, including the language issue on other threads off and on for some months now.


58 posted on 12/12/2004 6:28:25 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]

To: m4629
Interesting analogy. I makes more sense now.

I think for now, I will stick to my single email addy.

But the network idea is interesting. I wonder if anyone has researched which one is more effective.:-)

59 posted on 12/12/2004 6:30:25 PM PST by Cold Heat (What are fears but voices awry?Whispering harm where harm is not and deluding the unwary. Wordsworth)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis

You do know that the problem with reunification is don't you. Lot's of Latin Rite Catholics running east to avoid the liturgical abuses under which we suffer.


60 posted on 12/12/2004 6:31:08 PM PST by NeoCaveman (There is no dufu but DUFU and PJ Comix is its writer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: Cold Heat

Where in the Mass is Mary elevated over Jesus? I ask this as a Catholic who doesn't and has never seen that. Am I missing something?


61 posted on 12/12/2004 6:33:26 PM PST by tiki (Won one against the Flipper)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: AAABEST

As a very traditional, hard-core, "no idols for me" type Protestant, I find that I cannot reject out of hand the Marian aparitions. There's something going on here, and it happens to Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Confucians and so forth. Even the Koran mysteriously contains a very elaborate Praise of Mary. If you think you have troubles with this, imagine the problems your typical Imam has! (ROTFLMAO)


62 posted on 12/12/2004 6:34:05 PM PST by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: NYer

BUMP


63 posted on 12/12/2004 6:35:25 PM PST by nickcarraway
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: AlbionGirl

Don't they still have Guy Fawkes Day?


64 posted on 12/12/2004 6:40:18 PM PST by nickcarraway
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Cold Heat
I have attended Catholic mass and find myself quite comfortable, except for the differences in rituals and the elevation of Mary rather than Jesus.

When did you see "the elevation of Mary" during Holy Mass?

65 posted on 12/12/2004 6:42:14 PM PST by nickcarraway
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Cold Heat
As a Methodist, don't you recite the Apostle's Creed? "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins and the resurrection of the body."
66 posted on 12/12/2004 6:43:55 PM PST by tiki (Won one against the Flipper)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies]

To: NYer

These folks are obviously still clinging to their Catholic roots. They need to find a Roman Catholic parish to join. They are not theologically Protestant, why are they going to a Methodist church?


67 posted on 12/12/2004 6:59:22 PM PST by PAR35
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tiki
"I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins and the resurrection of the body."

Yes we do,(some of the language is changed a bit), as I mentioned earlier.

Not all UMC churches do this.

I did not criticize your religion. I was explaining why the Virgin will not be acceptable in a UMC church. It and other iconic stuff in the Catholic and subsequently the Anglican Church is a big part of the reason Methodists left in the first place.

68 posted on 12/12/2004 7:00:37 PM PST by Cold Heat (What are fears but voices awry?Whispering harm where harm is not and deluding the unwary. Wordsworth)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: NYer

For you Catholics; why do you need the mother to draw you to the son? Aren't you drawn to Him already?


69 posted on 12/12/2004 7:02:36 PM PST by bonfire
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: dubyaismypresident

You've lost me! I don't understand. Sorry.


70 posted on 12/12/2004 7:03:19 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: Cold Heat

How sad that some feel they can't pray directly to God. They put all these obstacles in front of Him. What? Is He too busy to hear their prayers?


71 posted on 12/12/2004 7:06:08 PM PST by bonfire
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: nickcarraway

When did you see a Catholic church without a statue of Mary?


72 posted on 12/12/2004 7:07:30 PM PST by bonfire
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: nickcarraway
I don't have a clue what the various religious things are called, but I do not recall hearing the name of Jesus mentioned very frequently, if at all.

I am not saying that Catholics, as our Jewish brethren, do not acknowledge Jesus as God, only that his name is not a big part of the service as it is in a protestant church.

You are responding to what another poster said as a question and now I gotta FReep my way though a bunch of bent out of shape Catholics to post about a protestant church thread which is really getting irritating.

73 posted on 12/12/2004 7:07:51 PM PST by Cold Heat (What are fears but voices awry?Whispering harm where harm is not and deluding the unwary. Wordsworth)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis
You've lost me! I don't understand. Sorry.

Too put it simply if we were all one church again, There would be no empty parking spaces in the churches that had the Divine Liturgy because of all the refugees from the Novus Ordo.

74 posted on 12/12/2004 7:09:56 PM PST by NeoCaveman (There is no dufu but DUFU and PJ Comix is its writer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | View Replies]

To: dubyaismypresident

Ah! I suspect, with all due respect, that you are probably right. On the other hand, we'd have to expand the parking lot here; already full most Sundays!


75 posted on 12/12/2004 7:13:00 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis

I'd be one of the first over. I love the old Latin Mass, but if my choice is the new one, which seems like something even Marin Luther could love, or your Liturgy of Saint John C (I won't try to spell it right now because I'll mess it up) well.... no contest.


76 posted on 12/12/2004 7:15:23 PM PST by NeoCaveman (There is no dufu but DUFU and PJ Comix is its writer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: dubyaismypresident
Chrysostomos, the Golden Mouthed! And a golden mouthed fellow he was too.
77 posted on 12/12/2004 7:17:55 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 76 | View Replies]

To: bonfire
* For you Catholics; why do you need the mother to draw you to the son? Aren't you drawn to Him already?*

Mary is the Mother of Jesus, we are His brothers and sisters, so Mary is our Mother as well.  Though she did not physically give birth to us, she gave Jesus the Sacred Body of which we have become members (Ephesians 5:29).  We are all united to the very same Flesh which Jesus drew from the Virgin, so she is, in a very real sense, our Mother in the order of the Redemption.

Catholics know that Jesus is God and Mary is not.  Therefore our devotion to her does not overshadow her Son.

78 posted on 12/12/2004 7:37:42 PM PST by NYer ("Blessed be He who by His love has given life to all." - final prayer of St. Charbel)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

To: Cold Heat; AAABEST; sitetest
What I will say is that Methodist's pray directly to Jesus who is God's only son and is both human and God.

In the course of your working career, have you ever asked for a raise in pay? Was this addressed to the CEO or your boss, who 'interceded' on your behalf.

Catholics pray to Jesus; occasionally we also ask our 'friends' for assistance, since they are already in the Kingdom of Heaven.

79 posted on 12/12/2004 7:46:21 PM PST by NYer ("Blessed be He who by His love has given life to all." - final prayer of St. Charbel)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Well, that's OK by me. But I don't see a corporate hierarchy, or actually a hierarchy at all.

When a protestant accepts Jesus as his/her Saviour, the relationship becomes personal since he died for "My" sins, not "our" sins.

I think that might be the difficulty in understanding. But, it is a small one for me, I accept the differences. Others may take it more personal, but I don't.

I just want to be more like Him. I prefer the more personal relationship. But that is just me. On the other hand,it seems logical to have plenty of help.

Carry on!

80 posted on 12/12/2004 8:07:42 PM PST by Cold Heat (What are fears but voices awry?Whispering harm where harm is not and deluding the unwary. Wordsworth)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 79 | View Replies]

To: tiki
"I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins and the resurrection of the body."

      I must point out that these words have rather different meaning to Christians of non Roman churches, than they apparently do to those of the Roman faith.  In the Biblical view, all Christians are saints, while they are alive - not just a few given the title after they are dead.  The communion of the saints then refers simply to the fellowship of living believers.  As for the holy catholic church, it is simply the universal ecclesia - the corporate, invisible, body of those who are called out by the Holy Ghost.  Again, in the non Roman/Orthodox view, the meaning of the word catholic was mangled when the established church was started in the fourth century by a still pagan emperor.  And, yes, non Roman churches do have Communion services, but these are completely devoid of the heretical idea of a sacrificial mass.
81 posted on 12/12/2004 9:01:47 PM PST by Celtman (It's never right to do wrong to do right.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

Comment #82 Removed by Moderator

To: Celtman; tiki
non Roman churches do have Communion services, but these are completely devoid of the heretical idea of a sacrificial mass.

Catholic Christian belief in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist rests upon the literal meaning of the words of the Last Supper as recorded by the Evangelists and Paul.

The uniformity of expression across the first four authors affirms the literalness. Belief in the real presence demands faith--the basis of new life as called for by Christ throughout scripture. But faith in signs conferring what they signify is the basis also for the Incarnation--appearances belying true meaning. The true significance of the real presence is sealed in John's gospel. Five times in different expressions, Jesus confirmed the reality of what he means.

Jn 6:51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.
Jn 6:53
Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Jn 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life.
Jn 6:55
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Jn 6:56
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

The best way a person can make a clear literal point is repetition of the same message in different ways. Jesus did this. Those around him clearly understood what he was saying--cannibalism and the drinking of blood--both forbidden by Mosaic Law.

Jn 6:60,66
Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?" ... As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

Had these disciples mistaken the meaning of Jesus' words, Jesus would surely have known and corrected them. He didn't. They had clearly understood his meaning--Jesus' flesh was to be really eaten; his blood to be really drunk.

83 posted on 12/13/2004 3:17:32 AM PST by NYer ("Blessed be He who by His love has given life to all." - final prayer of St. Charbel)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 81 | View Replies]

To: Salvation; NYer
. . . and speaking of Our Lady of Guadalupe . . .

I was at a dog trial this weekend, sponsored by our local agility club so I attended both days.

I used the wonderful resource MassTimes.org to find a nearby church so I wouldn't miss Mass. Found a church less than two miles away from the trial venue . . . and they had a 7:30 a.m. Mass! Great, I thought . . . I'll hit the "quickie" Mass and be in and out in time for the first Sunday. Famous last words . . .

I show up and the place is JAMMED . . . I mean cars are streaming in and out, the parking lot is full . . . find a spot in a distant corner and head down to the church. I hear drums . . . The courtyard between the church and parish hall is full of people, and in the middle are a bunch of people in elaborate feather costumes with headdresses, beating drums and playing flutes.

It's a Hispanic parish, and they're finishing up an all-night Vigil in honor of the Virgin de Guadalupe, and it's a full Festival Mass with all the trimmings (including a gorgeous larger-than-life-size statue of the Virgin as she appeared to Juan Diego.)

In for a penny - in for a pound - fortunately I hit the English Mass and not the Spanish one. And I only missed one class. And my dog got three qualifying scores. :-D

84 posted on 12/13/2004 4:09:14 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: nickcarraway; AlbionGirl
Don't they still have Guy Fawkes Day?

Actually they don't. The old prayers specifically for Guy Fawkes day have been removed from the prayerbook. They were pretty pointedly anti-Catholic, and since the Oxford Movement there has been a strong group in the Anglican Church seeking, if not reunion with Rome, at least a thawing of relations.

Funny thing . . . as a former Anglican I still am settling in to my new Catholic parish (haven't even been there a year yet). We were in choir practice, and somebody mentioned Guy Fawkes day. I looked up and grinned and said, "Hey! I get to cheer for the other side now!" About half the folks in the room knew what I was talking about and laughed -- the other half are like, "these nutty Episcopalians, what is she talking about?"

85 posted on 12/13/2004 4:14:27 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: PAR35

"These folks are obviously still clinging to their Catholic roots. They need to find a Roman Catholic parish to join. They are not theologically Protestant, why are they going to a Methodist church?"

checkout

http://www.udayton.edu/mary/respub/Summer2003.html

"In this much to be desired exchange of valuables, Methodists might consider taking the Rosary into their system. Not many know that John Wesley himself used the rosary, and the one he used is at present among the archives of The Leys School, Cambridge."

Maybe they are closer to Methodist roots than you think.


86 posted on 12/13/2004 4:22:34 AM PST by TNMountainMan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 67 | View Replies]

To: dubyaismypresident
Lot's of Latin Rite Catholics running east to avoid the liturgical abuses under which we suffer.

Excellent point; it was my reason for looking 'east'. The Catholic Church is both Western and Eastern. Vatican II Council declared that "all should realize it is of supreme importance to understand, venerate, preserve, and foster the exceedingly rich liturgical and spiritual heritage of the Eastern churches, in order faithfully to preserve the fullness of Christian tradition" (Unitatis Redintegrato, 15). Pope John Paul II said that "the Catholic Church is both Eastern and Western."

As most of us realize, the Church began in the East. Our Lord lived and died and resurrected in the Holy Land. The Church spread from Jerusalem throughout the known world. As the Church spread, it encountered different cultures and adapted, retaining from each culture what was consistent with the Gospel. In the city of Alexandria, the Church became very Egyptian; in Antioch it remained very Jewish; in Rome it took on an Italian appearance and in the Constantinople it took on the trappings of the Roman imperial court. All the churches which developed this way were Eastern, except Rome. Most Catholics in the United States have their roots in Western Europe where the Roman rite predominated. It has been said that the Eastern Catholic Churches are "the best kept secret in the Catholic Church."

Several of us in the forum are Roman Catholics who have chosen to celebrate the Divine Liturgy at an Eastern Catholic Church. You can learn more about the different liturgies at this link:

CATHOLIC RITES AND CHURCHES

To locate an Eastern Catholic Church in your community, go here:

Eastern Catholic Churches in the U.S.

Should you decide to 'test the waters', learn as much as possible ahead of time, about how that particular liturgy is celebrated so you won't feel awkward. For example, in the Western traditions, genuflection is considered the proper form of respect. In the Eastern traditions, it is the profound bow. We bow towards the Tabernacle, at the Trisagion prayer, we bow our heads during the Consecration and we bow after receiving communion. Most important, however, we must recognize that liturgy is the prime way through which the Eastern Traditions "do catechesis," that is, teach the Faith.

Communion is by intinction - the priest dips the consecrated host into the Precious Blood and then places it on the tongue of the communicant. There is no communion in the hand and no EEMs.

It is also a common practice in the Eastern Churches to join together as a community, after the Divine Liturgy. Refreshments are served and the community gathers for conversation. We become an extended family to each other. The priest makes a point of circulating among his parishioners, just like a loving father does with his family.

We also come together for various events throughout the year - cleaning the church, preparing for festivals, making pilgrimages.

And, if you go, plan on attending the Divine Liturgy at least 3 times. Though 'prepared', my first experience was filled with distractions (when to stand, sit, etc.), the 2nd visit was an adjustment to the chanted responses; by the 3rd visit, I felt more comfortable and could now participate at the liturgy. By the 3rd visit, children were waving and adults were smiling, acknowledging me as a 'member' of their community. I was home!

87 posted on 12/13/2004 4:28:15 AM PST by NYer ("Blessed be He who by His love has given life to all." - final prayer of St. Charbel)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: Viking2002

Praying to Mary is not a Lutheran tradition.


88 posted on 12/13/2004 4:33:01 AM PST by kittymyrib
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Viking2002
Don't Lutherans still retain some Catholic traditions that carried over after the Reformation?

I hear that some pray the rosary.

Doctrine has also converged a little bit, most notably with the Joint Declaration on Justification signed a few years ago.

89 posted on 12/13/2004 4:51:17 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: muawiyah
Still involves rosaries

Veneration of the image on the tilma doesn't require the recitation of the rosary.

You might want to do some googling on the image and the scientific analysis surrounding its origin. The image is clearly miraculous in origin. Since the image was instrumental in the conversion of the native Americans and their barbaric religious practices, it could not be the work of the devil.

90 posted on 12/13/2004 4:55:29 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Cold Heat
the elevation of Mary rather than Jesus.

Jesus merits worship. Mary merits veneration.

Mary said, “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed" (Luke 1:47-48)

91 posted on 12/13/2004 5:04:53 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: NYer; Aquinasfan; Viking2002
This might help.

http://orthodoxlutheran.fws1.com/menu.html

There is a Lutheran Rosary, though it doesn't have all of the Marian devotions. The question of the Immaculate conception, continual virginity, ect. are generally regarded as traditions, but not dogmas.
92 posted on 12/13/2004 5:14:17 AM PST by redgolum (Molon labe)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis
English is such a lousy language for religion.

Another example is the problematic word, pray. Years ago, the word pray meant "to ask." Now it connotes worship as much as anything.

When Catholics say, "we pray to the saints," what we are saying is that we are asking the saints to pray for us, "to ask God" for us, just as we ask fellow Christians "to ask God for us" here below.

93 posted on 12/13/2004 5:14:54 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Cold Heat
What I will say is that Methodist's pray directly to Jesus who is God's only son and is both human and God. We do not ask anyone else to do that praying.(we have a direct line)

Have you ever asked a Methodist to pray for you?

If that's OK, why not ask the saints in heaven to pray for you too? After all, they're more alive than we are.

94 posted on 12/13/2004 5:38:54 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: muawiyah
Well, of course, there's all that Mother of God business,

Jesus is God. Mary is His mother.

95 posted on 12/13/2004 5:42:25 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: muawiyah
the saints remain dead in the ground

Revelation 5:8

the four living creatures and the twentyfour elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Hebrews 12:1

". . .we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses . . ."


96 posted on 12/13/2004 6:10:19 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies]

To: Celtman
And, yes, non Roman churches do have Communion services, but these are completely devoid of the heretical idea of a sacrificial mass.

1 Corinthians 11:23-30

For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.


97 posted on 12/13/2004 6:25:19 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 81 | View Replies]

To: NYer
But this is part of a trend nationwide: mainline Protestant churches and even some evangelical ones (in places like California, with a strong Mexican populace) are accepting the veneration of statues, which for decades has been misinterpreted as idolatry.

Veneration of statues? What kind of nut would venerate a chunk of plaster? Sloppy or deliberate wording by the author.

98 posted on 12/13/2004 8:22:24 AM PST by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Aquinasfan; All
Have you ever asked a Methodist to pray for you?

Actually, No.

I have never asked anyone to pray for me, as I have never asked anyone for a gift. (except as a child from Santa)

While I appreciate the furtherance of my understanding of the Saint and the act of veneration, my religious training and my understanding of the afterlife and God preclude me from this concept.

I would hope that all Catholics, Anglicans and Lutherans along with others who speak to or with Saints and inanimate objects would also accept that I do not and cannot. And that I view it as a unnecessary complication at the very least.

I do not, and should not even say what images it brings to my minds eye when I think about it.

But, at least I have improved my sense of understanding regarding this issue. I would hope the feeling is mutual.

99 posted on 12/13/2004 8:40:15 AM PST by Cold Heat (What are fears but voices awry?Whispering harm where harm is not and deluding the unwary. Wordsworth)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 94 | View Replies]

To: Cold Heat
We once visited with some close friends as they dedicated their new home. This started with the traditional burnt offerings to the gods, followed by various participatory "hearth and home" ceremonies, and so forth.

My wife is from a much more "open" background (they have Buddhists in the family), and mine is good old fashioned, cut and dried, Christian Church ~ so she joined in with our friends (to a degree), and I stood at the back of the room with the Moslems!

"In that day they will not do the burnt offering...." ~~ and that's after the Messiah comes.

I've often wondered if a Jew had been present if he'd participated in the burnt offering, or join the hard-core Christian "fundies" and the Moslems at the back of the room. Any guesses?

(NOTE: It's the same burnt offering made for the same purposes as in the good old days ~ here a banana became the substitute sacrifice ~ a really good banana too, selected from a select position on a large bunch ~ a regular ol' "first fruits" type of fruit).

100 posted on 12/13/2004 9:51:13 AM PST by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 99 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-170 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson