The Neo-Catholic Dead-End

Daily Catholic ^ | October 24, 2002 | Thomas E. Woods, Jr.

[Mark in the Old South]

Re: "' The poor devil gave it a try and collapsed, which put God's vicegerent very much out of sorts."

That is a funny story really. :-D

Christ never promised there would never be foolish Popes. He names Simon, Peter and then shortly thereafter calls him Satan. Christ knew he was dealing with men and some would fail.

I truly think the Rosary and the Stations of the Cross are prophecy. Christ falls three times on the way to Calvary. So has the Church, three times in a very profound and serious way. Once with the Arian Heresy, the years of neglect and avarice leading to Luther and today with Vatican II.

[livius]

None of what you have suggested would surprise me in the least. I thought this particularly interesting:

There will be interference from secular governments who do not have love for the Church in their hearts.

Americans have not been following this, probably, but the governments of several European countries have become increasingly bold in their attacks on the Church. This is particularly true in the case of Spain, whose Socialist government (yes, the same one that was elected after the Madrid bombings and immediately pulled Spanish troops out of Iraq) has been absolutely blatant in its attempts to eliminate the Church's influence in public life. At the same time, I have the sense that Europeans want to "co-opt" the structure and prestige of the Church - although without that inconvenient religious part.

So it wouldn't surprise me at all if there was at least an attempt at intervention by a secular power in the election of the next Pope.

[sinkspur]

There will be two claimants to the seat of Rome. The conclave of Cardinals will be deeply split. There will be interference from secular governments who do not have love for the Church in their hearts. One will be forced to leave Rome. One will be very bad but it will not show for 3-4 years.

Are you channeling John Edwards?

[gbcdoj]

a Catholic translator like St. Jerome should be referenced

Jerome translates it as accipite, which also means "to take, receive, accept" (Scanlon & Scanlon, Latin Grammar, p. 200).

Mt 26:26 Cenantibus autem eis, accepit Iesus panem et benedixit ac fregit deditque discipulis et ait: “ Accipite, comedite: hoc est corpus meum ”.

a Protestant translator would put a calculated Protestant definition on how the Holy Eucharist - unleavened bread literally changed into the Body of Christ Jesus - is to be received according to Sacred Tradition

Drobot, I think you misread Berry. He never mentions the reception of communion - are you confusing his citation of Mat. xiv. 9 with Mat. xxvi. 26?

[Mark in the Old South]

By the way Pope John Paul II will die sometime between Oct 2010 and March 2012. 2011 most likely.

[gbcdoj]

sempertrad, the section you cut out and bold is referring to self-communication. Note the qualifier of "without the presence of a priest or minister". Basil then uses two arguments to defend his opinion: (1) "All the solitaries in the desert, where there is no priest, take the communion themselves, keeping communion at home.  And at Alexandria and in Egypt, each one of the laity, for the most part, keeps the communion, at his own house, and participates in it when he likes." (2) "And even in the church, when the priest gives the portion, the recipient takes it with complete power over it, and so lifts it to his lips with his own hand."

[Mark in the Old South]

Re: "Are you channeling John Edwards?"

:-D
No, nor am I hearing voices nor private revelations. I have for years noticed patterns in Scripture. The more I learn about Church history and Catholic type theology the more convinced I am the Catholic Church is Divine and is following the pattern God laid out for us.

[sinkspur]

I have for years noticed patterns in Scripture.

Biblical codes?

[gbcdoj]

the Old Catholics balked--and rejected the Council's declaration--sticking with the dictum that the pope's infallibility was far broader.

That's totally confused, ultima. Dollinger and the Old Catholics thought that the Pope wasn't infallible at all.

[ultima ratio]

The story sounds apocryphal to me.

[sinkspur]

Does Pius IX's kidnapping of a Jewish child, baptized by a house maid, sound apocryphal also?

[livius]

Also interesting. Although when I saw him on TV at the Midnight Mass, he certainly didn't look as if he was going to be with us that much longer. But I suppose it's quite possible that he will not be capable of functioning, but will still be alive until then. A difficult situation.

[Mark in the Old South]

I really find it amazing I have to explain this to a Deacon. Adam is a type of Christ - Father of us all. Abel is a type of Christ - Priest who offers a sacrifice. Noe is a type of Christ - the Ark is the bark of the church. Issac - Offered himself as his fathers sacrifice. Melchisedech - Priest who offers a unbloodied sacrifice. Joseph - An innocent envied by his kin who saves his family. Moses - Redeems us from bondage.

The 12 Tribes of Israel a type of the twelve Apostles. One tribe becomes two. Joseph into Ephraim and Mananas. Judas to Matthias and Paul.

[Mark in the Old South]

It should and does. Abraham promised Judah his seed would rule Israel until the Promised one came. They did until the Romans put Herod's family on the throne. It was a sign. The lawgiver Moses was proceeded by Pharaoh's attempt to kill the male children of the Hebrews. Tomorrow is the feast of Holy Innocents which was a sign for those living in Christ's time. Today we have abortion and on a scale that was unthinkable 100, 2000 or 6000 years ago. It is a sign for us and many are missing it. Lord have mercy I have no idea how they could but they do.

[ultima ratio]

Mea culpa. It was the ultramontanists who pushed the broader view.

[Mark in the Old South]

I admit I could be wrong. If I was going on what I thought I would guess he would pass on in the next year or two but that would not fit the pattern I suspect is governing this. A Papacy of 33 years would, ergo my guess he will live till 2011 give or take a few months.

A long drawn out illness also allows the fever to grow and the maggots to eat the rotten flesh. Maggots do not eat living healthy flesh but only the dead. They have been used in medicine to clean a rotting wound. They clean better than any nurse can in some situations. Still it is better to be the living flesh than the maggot, they are expendable once their usefulness is complete.

[Gerard.P]

To act as if JPII is cultivating some sort of papal cult is to ignore the recent past, with Papal coronations, the grand processionals with the flabelli and sedia gestatoria, and the sanctification of every utterance made by Popes, in light of the doctrine of Papal infallibility

You are missing the point. Every utterance of pre-conciliar Popes was treated as important because they didn't speak often in an official capacity unless they needed to. They understood that the world stops when Popes speak. Now, since the present Holy Father never shuts up, It's become white noise. Particularly due to the fact that he's a lot of confusing talk about orthodoxy and no action.

The pre-conciliar Popes had real humility. They allowed their persons and personalities to be subsumed by the papacy. Not so with the ego maniacal insistence by JPII on changing everything to suit his rather darkened intellect.

The common sense reason for the tiara, jewels, gigantic robes, sedia gestatoria, the fans and the grand theatrics was to bury the man under the robes. Looking at a distance of more than 50 feet you'd never be able to tell Pius X from Pius XII or Leo XIII. They look the same. The papacy looks the same. Perpetual and Larger than the everyday Life. You can always recognize the Pope in old paintings separate from Kings for a reason.

Since no new Pope is likely to have the personal charism on the level that JPII had. His only option to save the Church organization from total collapse is to put on the robes and tiara and take a traditional name and allow himself in humility to be carried around on the sedan chair. Pius X forbade applause as he was carried through St. Peter's. The experience as related to those present was intense beyond anything had they been allowed to hoot and holler. I'd like to see JPII do that. He doesn't have the stature to make it happen. People who go for the cult of personality would be cheering without even listening.

If we get a Pope who is in the mold of JPII, he'll continue down the road to destruction. He'll probably avoid taking a name and just use his own. (as was the practice in the "early church") And he'll move his residence out of the Vatican, and he'll never issue a statement that implies or evokes Petrine primacy.

[sinkspur]

I really find it amazing I have to explain this to a Deacon.

Explain what? What does you recited have to do with anything?

[Tantumergo]

"If anything, the formal definition of infallibility denigrated the ordinary teaching of the Church, and focused on papal pronouncements to the detriment of the body of bishops, teaching in union."

Yes I think you are quite right here. It was an unintended consequence of the definition, and one which Newman was alert to. I think it also had the unfortunate side-effect of relegating the historic Magisterium to something which became perceived as subordinate to the present day Magisterium, although in reality the two can never be opposed.

[sinkspur]

Not so with the ego maniacal insistence by JPII on changing everything to suit his rather darkened intellect.

Your post is nothing but personal opinion, and the above atrocity is the capstone.

Ridiculing the names of "John" and "Paul," two apostles, is, well, ridiculous.