Posted on 01/02/2005 1:59:29 PM PST by wagglebee
'Nuff said. Not interested.
Do you accept the traditional doctrine of Bl. Pius IX and Pius XII on submission to the Magisterium of the Church?
Very nice. But are you actually capable of taking concepts and expressing them simply in YOUR OWN WORDS? Rather then giving us endless lengths of eye-crossing material to plow through?
Better the magisterial teaching, no matter how eye-crossing, than your personal interpretations of them, which often end up in the weeds (I offer your views on the validity of marriages with no representative of the Church present).
It is the character of an educated and well formed mind that one can take concepts which one has learned, and express them in one's own words. Simply.
It is further examplary of such a mind that one can take such concepts, once learned and use one's acquired knowledge, logic, and reasoning to debate such things - and thereby come to the conclusion that one agrees or disagrees with them.
I believe it was Tomas D'Aquin who said that intelligent questioning can be the beginning of faith itself. For in such questioning, by the use of right reason, one strengthens both faith and intellect.
Well in this case we have under discussion the following points from Kramer's article:
(a) the Church cannot, according to the Council of Trent, create a new rite for the Sacraments.
(b) according to Vatican II, the decrees of Vatican II impose no obligation on the faithful.
I could just assert that these two propositions are false, by why would someone believe me over Kramer? So I quoted two short paragraphs, one from Trent and the other from the Note proceeding Lumen Gentium, which show both of these assertions false.
1. Was there a time in Church history when there was wide spread; for want of a better term, sexual apostasy within the clergy?
2. What do you think the Church's response would have been if this had happened say at the time of Pius XII or before but, in the 20th century?
In answer to your first question--there is no data on this since records were not kept until modern times. But to answer your second question, there is no question in my mind that strong measures would have been taken by the preconciliar popes to eliminate the problem, including firing bishops and priests and reforming seminaries. Pius XII in particular kept a very tight ship.
As I understand it, Popes don't normally intervene in the Jurisdictions of other Bishops. As for the Pope and the royal regalia, there were times prior to that when those things weren't worn.
AC and GSS,I'm flagging you to a great and witty post that I wish I could use every time these 'chats' devolve to the same old place.
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