Posted on 01/15/2005 2:45:31 AM PST by HarleyD
Week 1-Introduction-All Christians Believe In Predestination
At the time of the American Revolution, almost every Christian denomination in America affirmed the Reformed doctrine of predestination. Christians believed that God alone was to be credited with their salvation—even their cooperation with God’s grace was brought about by God’s grace. God had chosen some for eternal life and not others, and only God knew his reasons for the selection. Baptists, Anglicans, Congregationalists, Dutch Reformed, and (of course) Presbyterians—all stood solidly upon this biblical teaching. One thing, however, was sure—God didn’t choose us because he knew we would believe. Rather, we believed because God chose us. God was God, and all the glory would go to him.
After two centuries of immersion in American culture, however, American Christianity has entered the new millennium in a state of crisis. Few Americans today believe in predestination. They may say they do, but they then define predestination as based upon God’s foresight of our faith. In the end, the reason I’m saved was because of my free will, not God’s sovereign choice. I guess the reason I believed when my neighbor didn’t is because I was just better than my neighbor. I was good enough to believe by my own free will. I thank you, Father, that I had the good sense to cooperate with you....
I’ll say this right at the outset. Free-will Christianity is a bastardization of biblical Christianity. It is inconsistent Christianity. Perhaps “heresy” is even a fair term for it. All this “free will” thinking is just another form of legalism, making salvation depend upon us rather than upon Jehovah. Don’t get me wrong—many who buy this thinking are genuine, sincere believers and will be with the Lord forever. After all, a major point in this class will be that God’s grace is more powerful than our blindness. But there has been a lack of biblical teaching here for decades. The result of this dearth has been an even bigger problem, a problem so terrifying as to threaten the very vitality of the American church. We have lost sight of God’s greatness. How rare today is a sermon on God’s majesty, his sovereign power, his wrath, his judgment, his overpowering rule over history, his supremacy, his fierceness, his eternal predestination. If we’re really, really honest with ourselves, Do we truly know God anymore? We have tamed God. Castrated him, perhaps. As one theologian laments... our thoughts of God have become far too human.
This should come as no surprise in America. For two centuries, the church has existed in an American culture whose highest values are personal liberty and individual rights. It would be quite natural for Christians here to filter the Bible through such a lens. The kingdom of God has to be all about me. It has to be relevant to my life, right? And if I am saved, it has to be because of my decisions, right? My will has to be free, right? God would be unfair to have it any other way. God has to be an equal opportunity Savior. Isn’t God a democracy? Didn’t Jesus preach about the Republic of God? All this is to suggest that American churches don’t teach predestination because they are more American than they are Christian. We have come to think that our God is small. Now it’s time for a new Reformation in the churches, a Reformation in which we honor God as God, not just as mascot. We need a Reformation in which God is glorified as God, and not just as someone who “fills our needs.” Enough about our needs! It’s far past time we let God be God. I know of no “need” more pressing than this.
Still, even with all this misunderstanding about predestination, nearly every major Christian denomination in history has felt compelled to have some doctrine of predestination. Our generation is not the first to have to work through this biblical issue. About the year 400, Augustine and Pelagius fought over this doctrine—and Pelagius was condemned as a heretic for his doctrine of free will. Then at the Council of Orange in 529 AD, the Christians united to reject free will in favor of God’s sovereign grace. And again in 855, the Council of Valence affirmed a double predestination. During the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century, Martin Luther called the doctrine of predestination the cor ecclesia, the heart of the Church. Luther wrote more about predestination than did John Calvin, even though the term “Calvinism” was unfortunately applied to the doctrine. If one looks at the greatest theologians in the 2,000 years of Christian history—Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Edwards—although these men disagree on other issues and are by no means infallible, all of them agree on this question of predestination.
“We confess a predestination of the elect to life, and a predestination of the wicked to death; that, in the election of those who are saved, the mercy of God precedes anything we do, and in the condemnation of those who will perish, evil merit precedes the righteous judgment of God.”
—Council of Valence, 855
“Predestination to Life is the everlasting Purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) He hath decreed by His counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom He hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honor.”
—Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England, 1563
“From all eternity God decreed all that should happen in time, and this He did freely and unalterably, consulting only His own wise and holy will.... The angels and men who are the subjects of God's predestination are clearly and irreversibly designated, and their number is unalterably fixed.”
—The Baptist Confession of 1689
The term predestination itself is clear enough: the eternal destinies of men and women were determined beforehand (pre) by God. Before the creation, God chose who would go to heaven and who would go to hell. Christians believe in predestination for one simple reason. The Bible teaches it. No other reason will suffice. In Ephesians 1:5-6, for example, Scripture tells us when this choice took place—before creation, in eternity. And the Bible tells us what this predestination is unto—adoption through Jesus, to be holy and blameless before God. And it tells us here why God chose us—so that his glory could be praised.
“For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love He predestined us to be adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will-- to the praise of His glorious grace.”
Three views on Predestination
The real question in not whether or not Christians should believe in predestination—the Bible clearly teaches predestination. The real question is this: whom did God predestine to eternal life, and (even more importantly) why did God choose those He predestined?
1. The optimistic view: God has predestined everybody to eternal life. Satan has predestined everybody to eternal death. God is for you, the Devil is against you—you have to cast the tie-breaker. The problem with this view is that it has absolutely nothing to do with the Bible's view of predestination. The Bible clearly states that not everyone is predestined, but only those who will eventually believe and enjoy eternal life. Christians are frequently called the elect, as opposed to the non-elect, and are said to be the chosen ones (see Rom 8:33; 11:7; 1 Cor 1:27-29; Col 3:12; 2 Tim 2:10; Tit 1:1; 1 Pe 2:8-9)—God has not chosen everyone. God has chosen some for eternal life and rejected others. But on what basis has God chosen some?
2. The Arminian view: God has predestined some to eternal life because He saw in advance that such persons would cooperate with the Holy Spirit and believe by their own free will. God gives everyone an equal amount of grace, and those willing to take it are saved. God chose us because we were going to choose Him.
3. The Reformed (Calvinist) view: God predestined some to eternal life, not because He saw that they would have believed on their own (They wouldn’t have!), but because of His own good pleasure. God chose us despite our rejection of Him, not because we would be cooperative. God chose to change our hearts, and he has done so and will continue to do so until all of his elect are gathered.
Calvinists and Arminians agree that only some are elect, and that those who are elect will come to faith and believe until the end (if, in fact, they are elect). And everyone agrees that those who turn from sin to follow Christ are saved. The question is this: On what basis did God predestine them? Did God predestine some because He knew they would believe of their own free will, or did He predestine without regard to human choices? Was God's choice based on our choice, or is our choice itself as a result of God's choice?
The Five Points of Calvinism
In 1610, a group of the followers of James Arminius, a Dutch professor, presented a list of five grievances to the Dutch Parliament. Imbued with the humanism then arising within Europe, these “Arminians” were not pleased with the direction the Protestant Reformation had taken—objecting particularly to the doctrine of predestination as the Reformers (Luther, Calvin) had taught it. After eight years of biblical study and reflection, however, the Reformation churches meeting at Dort rejected the five Arminian objections as unbiblical. Their response followed the five Arminian objections, and has been passed down to us as the “Five Points” of Calvinism, known for its acronym, TULIP:
Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the saints. There are better titles for each of these doctrines—and this class will not deal with the extent of the atonement (that will have to be dealt with later). The two theological systems may be compared as follows:
The Arminian Objections to Protestant Theology (“The Five Points of Arminianism)
The Reformed Response to the Arminian Objectios (The Five Points of Calvinism)
The name “Five Point of Calvinism” is a little misleading, of course. Calvinist churches teach more than five points—the vision is to teach the whole counsel of God! These particular five points were simply the five under fire in the seventeenth century. One might suggest that these are five of the hundred or so points of biblical Christianity. Yet the one great point behind all five points is the supreme point that salvation is of the Lord, from beginning to end. God is God, and he does as he pleases. And if he has chosen to give us salvation, we’re going to make sure that we give all the glory for it to him, not to ourselves. Predestination is not just a Presbyterian thing. As the nineteenth century English Baptist preacher C.H. Spurgeon exclaimed, “I love to preach the strong old doctrines nicknamed Calvinism, but which are surely and verily the revealed truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus.”
Week 2-Letting God Be God-The Supremacy of God Over History
A few years ago, a Christian company in Florida began marketing “Jesus the Doll,” a doll the makers claim will “help children discover Jesus.” For $29.95, the doll promises to “provide solace for the elderly and the infirm, for those in recovery programs, and those in emotional duress.” The real Lord is just too ethereal. “It’s hard to hug air,” the company notes. They planned to follow this doll with the release of “God the Doll,” a two-foot rag-doll with white hair and a long beard, completely machine washable, of course. Is this the God in whom we trust?
I fear that many or even most American Christians have forgotten the sovereign power of God. Our God is abounding in love and mercy, but not in hugs. He is too big to hug. And those who have seen him—men like Isaiah in Isaiah 6—wanted to run from God rather than to hug him. In terror they cry, “Woe is me, I am ruined!” Even the sinless angels who minister before God’s throne dare not look God in the face, but cover their eyes and feet and cry out, “Holy, Holy, Holy!” Our God is a consuming fire, not a rag-doll. And God is sovereign—he is in control.
God has ordained everything in History
The third chapter of the Westminster Confession of Faith opens with these words: “God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass” (adding the qualification that God is not the author of sin and that people aren’t puppets). This statement was taken straight from Paul’s statement in Ephesians 1:11:
“In him we were predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”
DEFINE: 1) plan 2) everything 3) purpose 4) will
As R.C. Sproul points out, were there one maverick molecule out there somewhere apart from the plan of God, we would have no reason to hope in God. That one maverick molecule could be the one detail that defeats God’s eternal purpose. “For lack of the nail, the shoe was lost. For lack of the shoe, the horse was lost. For lack of the horse, the rider was lost. For lack of the rider, the battle was lost. For lack of the battle, the war was lost.”
God is all-powerful, and all of history is merely the outworking of his eternal plan. God not merely created the world, but his eternal power sustains it and continues its existence by the sheer exertion of his will—were God to blink, all would come to an end. God is the First Cause that lies behind all secondary causes. Out of all the billions of ways that God could have planned history, this is the plan God chose. God’s invisible hand is secretly at work controlling all things.
Concurrence
A key biblical principle that helps illuminate God’s sovereignty is called concurrence. People have plans, which may be good or may be evil, and people are responsible for the plans they make. God also has a plan, a plan which overrules all other plans. God’s eternal purpose and humanity’s purposes concur—they take place at the same time. As J.I. Packer explains, “God’s control is absolute in the sense that men do only that which He has ordained that they should do; yet they are truly free agents in the sense that their decisions are their own, and they are morally responsible for them.” While our motives may be impure, even our attempts to thwart God’s eternal plan in fact only serve to further it. We see this principle of concurrence active in several biblical passages.
In light of the biblical principle of concurrence, we understand how God even ordains evil and the suffering that follows from living in a sin-sickened world. This may seem ironic, since God hates sin and forbids people from sinning. God hates death too—Jesus even wept at the sight of death. But God also ordains death—it’s his curse on all of us for the sins of our first parents (Genesis 3). God ordains sin and suffering, even though he despises them. That’s the mystery of concurrence. This does not make human beings simply “puppets”—puppets do not have desires or wills; puppets do not make choices. People do—but God is the invisible hand at work in, behind and through the plans of mice and men, always accomplishing his eternal and unchanging purpose.
This has practical implications. Don’t tell someone who is suffering that God had nothing to do with his or her suffering. The last thing I want to be told when I’m suffering is that my pain has no significance! God ordains every disappointment, loss and sorrow just as surely as he ordains every joy. This was Job’s faith: “The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. May the name of the LORD be praised.” God has a purpose—even when we can’t always understand it. Our sufferings and even our sin have significance greater than themselves. They are the black stitches that God includes in the beautiful tapestry of his plan.
The greatest idol in American culture today is the idol of personal self-determination. Personal choice is cherished above God. Perhaps the reason it is so hard to teach the doctrine of predestination is because to preach this doctrine is to pierce the very heart of man's rebellion. "In Him we were chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will" (Ephesians 1:11). Who decides? God does, and He doesn't care how you feel about it. God is holy. God is sovereign. God is God. Bow the knee and fear the Lord. Fall before him and worship.
If we are all puppets on a string, then doesn't God predestine who will believe in predestination?
This is a great series of lectures Harley, thanks for posting them; Greg's one of the very best teachers I've heard- he makes the complex understandable.
If you want to HEAR Greg Johnson giving these very lectures.. click this link !
http://gregscouch.homestead.com/Lectures.html
bump for a read.
Christian.
exactly! why exhort people to follow correct doctrine, to fear God, to worship God, to do anything good when their actions are already determined from all eternity? We engage in arguments like the one posted in order to change people's minds - but if all is already pre-ordained - we cannot change a thing. So what is the point?
***exactly! why exhort people to follow correct doctrine, to fear God, to worship God, to do anything good when their actions are already determined from all eternity?***
If the future is known by God, then the future is necessarily fixed and already determined. There is nothing anyone can do to change what God already knows the future to be. The alternative is to strip God of his omniscience.
***We engage in arguments like the one posted in order to change people's minds - but if all is already pre-ordained - we cannot change a thing. So what is the point?***
Well, I guess you can deny God of his omniscience and turn creation into a cosmic crap-shoot where even God doesn't know what will happen. Then, after you do that, can try to "change people's minds." Of course, you will have reduced God to a helpless spectator before man's sin and turned him into an object to be pitied. As A.W. Pink observed, such a being would deserve the respect of no truly thoughtful man.
In the service of the Lord,
Christian.
also, Augustine believed in free will. See "City of God" book 5, ch 9-11. Pelagius was condemned for saying that someone could be saved without the grace of God, not because he believed in human free will. Augustine himself believed in human free will.
"we assert both that God knows all things before they come to pass, and that we do by our free will whatsoever we know and feel to be done by us only because we will it."
"But it does not follow that, though there is for GOd a certain order of all causes, there must therefore be nothing depending on the free exercise of our own wills, for our wills themselves are included in that order of causes which is certain to God, and is embraced by His foreknowledge, for human wills are also causes of human actions."
both quotes are from "City of God" book 5, start of chapter 9.
***exactly! why exhort people to follow correct doctrine, to fear God, to worship God, to do anything good when their actions are already determined from all eternity?***
*If the future is known by God, then the future is necessarily fixed and already determined. There is nothing anyone can do to change what God already knows the future to be. The alternative is to strip God of his omniscience.*
that's my point. If the future is determined, then why argue about anything? Why try to convince someone to change his or her mind? We argue to try and change things - but if all is determined, we cannot change anything.
***We engage in arguments like the one posted in order to change people's minds - but if all is already pre-ordained - we cannot change a thing. So what is the point?***
*Well, I guess you can deny God of his omniscience and turn creation into a cosmic crap-shoot where even God doesn't know what will happen. Then, after you do that, can try to "change people's minds." Of course, you will have reduced God to a helpless spectator before man's sin and turned him into an object to be pitied. As A.W. Pink observed, such a being would deserve the respect of no truly thoughtful man.*
So if you believe in God's omniscience, you can't try and change people's minds with argument (or do anything with the hope of affecting the future)? OK, so why are you posting here? Why do Calvinists write lengthy articles defending their viewpoint? It won't change anything.
As for God's omniscience, are you familiar with the work of Luis Molina - ie "Middle Knowledge"? If so, what do you think of his solution to reconciling God's omniscience with human free will?
From the article: "This does not make human beings simply “puppets”—puppets do not have desires or wills; puppets do not make choices. People do—but God is the invisible hand at work in, behind and through the plans of mice and men, always accomplishing his eternal and unchanging purpose."
If you do not believe God is the "invisible hand" at work in your salvation, why bother to pray?
Our dear Arminian friends through God's sovereign design showed me how sorely lacking I was in my knowledge of predestination. I thought I would share.
Man, you got to love Arminians.
They do not have the brain power to see anything unless it is clear black and white.
Sass, try to comprehend this if you can handle it.
We choose to come to Christ. We choose in everything we do. But, it still falls within God's plan and design.
It does not make us "puppets," however. It is not like we go unwillingly.
***As for God's omniscience, are you familiar with the work of Luis Molina - ie "Middle Knowledge"? If so, what do you think of his solution to reconciling God's omniscience with human free will?***
Yes, I am very familiar with Molinism & it's close modern day cousin Open Theism.
You should feel right at home here. Many Arminian posters on this board are closet Molinists. I recently outlined a model for God's exhaustive foreknowledge and watched the Arminians fall into classical Molinist arguments. There are even some open Open Theists on this board.
Personally,... you couldn't pay me money to believe in Molinism. The Lord is not as portrayed by Molina or any of his kind.
BTW, did you know that this libertarian free will, upon which such theologies rest, completely strips man of moral accountability? It also can't be proven from scriptures, but must be read into scriptures.
In the service of the Lord,
Christian.
Augustine, like Paul and Calvin and Zwingli and Baez and Warfield and Edwards and Spurgeon and Bahnsen and every Calvinist on this forum believes that man has the will to do as he pleases. And the unregenerate man's will does not desire anything Godly or good.
All men through the imputed sins of Adam are fallen and incapable of doing anything God-pleasing unless and until God regenerates their dead hearts. Like Jesus raising Lazarus from the dust, we can only be born-again by His hand. Born-again by nothing in us, but by the sovereign will of God, ordained by Him from before the foundation of the world according to His eternal plan for His creation.
Free will is a peculiar concept, accurate yet self-contradictory and limited. We do not have the free will to flap our arms and fly like geese. We do not have the free will to go without sleep. We do as we please, within the confines of what we are. And what we are is fallen sinners, unable to redeem ourselves. To say that man aids in his salvation is to demean Christ's sacrifice. It is all of Him, and none of us.
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." -- JOHN OWEN, III:433
Thanks, Harley, for this terrific study, and for the righteous quote from yesterday...
"All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." -- Matthew 11:27
there's no need to be rude rw. I'm trying to have an intelligent discussion about free will with the other posters. Insulting my brain power and saying condescending things like "if you can handle it" is very rude and if you do it again, I'm reporting it to the moderator.
There is a difference between believing in a God involved in salvation, and a God that predetermines everything.
What would you say God does not predetermine? If God does not predetermines our salvation then why pray that someone will be saved?
I suppose I am an Arminian, since I believe that God's grace is resistable. But I'm Catholic, so this should come as no surprise. From our viewpoint, Arminianism is orthodox on that issue.
However, I'm not very fond of Molinism. I took an entire course on Molinism in college and while it is a very clever attempt to solve the problem, I think it ultimately fails. It fails because, contra Augustine, there cannot be truths of what creatures will freely do in the future. There's nothing to ground these truths, especially when the creature doesn't even exist yet or never exists. And if there is something that grounds it, then the creature isn't free IMO. There are some other philosophical problems with Molinism too lengthy to get into here.
Overall I am rather skeptical about whether there are truths about the future period. I will probably write my dissertation exploring this issue (I'm a grad student in philosophy). I am very interested in the theological implications of this, which is why I'm posting on this board. I find comparing the views of Augustine, Aquinas, Molina, Calvin, Arminius, etc fascinating.
I wouldn't call myself an Open Theist, and am trying to avoid Open Theism because it is wishy-washy and unorthodox. I have some ideas that the free will/foreknowledge problem might be solved by emphasizing God's being outside of time, but I haven't worked this out much yet. Another theory is that the whole thing is an irresolvable paradox and due to the possibility God can break the laws of logic.
Curious, why do you say libertarian free will strips us of moral accountability? The common philosophical view is that libertarian free will is necessary for moral responsibility. Much ink is spilled trying to reconcile moral responsibility with something other than LFW, because many philosophers believe LFW is impossible for various reasons.
Only in the unregenerate creature's egotistical mind.
Lazarus was not dozing. He was cold, stone dead. He did not throw himself over the back of a chair in order to cough up whatever was obstructing his wind pipe. Nobody Heimliched him. The only way Lazarus (or any of us) lived again was by the predestining, sovereign breath of God alone.
If there's a God, and if He's the God of His Word, then ALL things are by His hand.
It's not easy to grasp, to be sure, but the alternative is absurdity.
If there's a God, He knows everything because He created everything and all things occur according to His will -- or things would occur differently. He's God; we're not.
Period.
"If there's a God, He knows everything because He created everything and all things occur according to His will -- or things would occur differently. He's God; we're not."
I'm curious about the implications of this. Alot of really awful things occur in the world. Say a young child is brutally murdered (which has happened before). Did that occur according to God's will? Did God cause the child to be murdered?
Sassbox; Dr. Eckleburg
One of the conundrums of “predestination” is we do not know the mind of G-d!
Paul tries to tell us in 1 Corinthians 13:12
NAsbU 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
We have a mind and we have the gift of reason,
both of which have been given to us by G-d.
If we believe that we can define or circumscribe
the creator of the universe and everything in it,
then we suffer from the sin of the Evil One:
rebellion and pride.
In His Forever Grip
chuck
Saving men that act correctly is not grace and it is not mercy, it is simply wages due
"Say a young child is brutally murdered (which has happened before). Did that occur according to God's will? Did God cause the child to be murdered?"
Answer:
Yes. Maybe.
One other question/answer. Did God murder the child? No.
As a parent, I know there's nothing that elicits as much terror as the thought of losing a child.
But God forbid, that event occurs, I would have three choices from which to seek comfort.
1) There is no God and my child was in the wrong place at the wrong time and suffered for no reason whatsoever other than a madman's violent, random impulses.
You and I would probably discard this answer because we're Christians.
2) God, omnipotent and all-powerful Creator of the universe and everything in it, was not capable of or chose not to intercede on my child's behalf to save him.
Personally, I could not bear to imagine this. This is not the God of Jesus Christ, Paul, Job, Mark nor John. This is a peculiarly impotent God who idly stands by while buses mow down pedestrians and earthquakes shatter lives and limbs. Nor is this Biblically-accurate.
3) Tragedy occurs, like every movement of the planets and every leaf that falls, for His glory alone. Likewise we have the assurance that all things occur, even the death of a child, because God ordains all things, most especially the day of our birth and the day of our death. And everything in between.
As a parent, I would have the comfort of knowing God wanted my child in heaven with Him at that very instant. Nobody shows up in heaven as a surprise to God.
"God is wise in heart and mighty in strength. Who has hardened himself against Him and prospered? He removes the mountains, and they do not know When He overturns them in His anger; He shakes the earth out of its place, And its pillars tremble; He commands the sun, and it does not rise; He seals off the stars; He alone spreads out the heavens, And treads on the waves of the sea; He made the Bear, Orion, and the Pleiades, And the chambers of the south; He does great things past finding out, Yes, wonders without number. If He goes by me, I do not see Him; If He moves past, I do not perceive Him; If He takes away, who can hinder Him? Who can say to Him, "What are You doing?'" -- Job 9:4-12.
Then go back and answer my first question. If God predetermines, he predetermines my belief in predestination. So why do you preach it? Perhaps you don't really believe it.
I failed to ping you to 20
***I suppose I am an Arminian, since I believe that God's grace is resistable. But I'm Catholic, so this should come as no surprise. From our viewpoint, Arminianism is orthodox on that issue.***
You would be astounded at how many Arminians have fits over the idea that the foundations of Arminianism is Catholic. But, that is neither here nor there. It is just refreshing to see someone who is not afraid to grasp what is so obvious.
***Curious, why do you say libertarian free will strips us of moral accountability? The common philosophical view is that libertarian free will is necessary for moral responsibility. Much ink is spilled trying to reconcile moral responsibility with something other than LFW, because many philosophers believe LFW is impossible for various reasons.***
But, this is exactly my point when I said that libertarian free will must be read into Scriptures. To be quite honest, no insult to your chosen field, I don't care how many philosophers have struggled with trying to attribute moral responsibility in the absence of libertarian free will or any kind of will for that matter. I'm a theologian, not a philosopher. My only concern is about the revealed truth contained in the Scriptures. And that means I'm not concerned at all about how to reconcile philosophically anything contained in the Bible.
For instance, the Bible clearly reveals that the Lord was killed by lawless men. It further reveals that this act is properly called a murder. The scriptures also reveal that the people of God count the Lord to be stricken by God. I make no attempt to philosophically reconcile the two accounts of the Atonement.
The Lord was murdered by lawless men. Fine.
The Lord was stricken by God. Fine.
The Bible makes no attempt to even answer for how God can NOT be counted as a criminal when the men can. It doesn't invent a nonexistent libertarian freedom to try and philosophically explain it. It simply informs me that there is no unrighteousness with God. And, I'm perfectly OK with that. The Father has done well by killing the Son, even if men have done wickedly in the murder of my Lord.
To the philosophers who are constantly trying to explain that which God has chosen not to explain I simply ask: "Would you like a band-aid for that boo-boo?"
Anyway, to my point. Libertarian freedom must be philosophically imposed upon the Scriptures by men unwilling to be satisfied with "I am that I am." It certainly can't be found in the Scriptures. The Scriptures reveal that the fruit of man follows the nature of man. The Scriptures nowhere inform us that man can act with indifference to his nature. And if God demands that which man is unable to perform, i.e. perfectly obey the Law, then, I'm OK with that.
The Father need not justify himself to any man. You have demanded that I be perfect when it is beyond me to be perfect.
"You are just when You speak,
And blameless when You judge.
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me."
And that is fine by me. I was conceived a sinner unable to meet any of the requirements of the Law. I am in sinner in need of grace. And it would be perfectly just for God never even offer a reconciliation.
So, I say flush philosophical rationalizations about what is just and not just; what makes man morally accountable and what gives man a free pass. The Lord, through the Bible, informs us that man is accountable, regardless of what kind of will man has. No need to force any humanistic reasoning about responsibility into the scriptures.
Besides, Scriptures clearly reveal that libertarian freedom is just a fantasy. I can't help it if you can't see it.
And, libertarian free will actually destroys man's moral accountability anyway. At least as it is defined by the philosophers. It is quite easy to present too. When a man is charged with a crime, one of the keys that lawyers always try to establish is motive. Motive has meaning only when man is motivated to do something. That should be self evident. Motive has no meaning when man is acting in complete indifference.
Police: "Why did you kill that man."
Criminal: "No reason. I was acting in complete indifference."
In the service of the Lord,
Christian.
***This is a peculiarly impotent God who idly stands by while buses mow down pedestrians and earthquakes shatter lives and limbs. Nor is this Biblically-accurate.***
Exactly. To make God a helpless spectator is to create a sad image which deserves the respect of no truly thoughtful man, as I noted earlier in this thread and ultimately learned from Pink.
Christian.
Your whole arguments are philosophically based. Where are the scriptures?
***Then go back and answer my first question. If God predetermines, he predetermines my belief in predestination. So why do you preach it? Perhaps you don't really believe it.***
Election is not a hindrance to the gospel. The same God who elects the people also ordains the means to bring the people of God into his kingdom.
Election is the guarantee of my success. God to Paul: "I have many people in this city."
In the service of the Lord,
Christian.
***Your whole arguments are philosophically based. Where are the scriptures?***
That is exactly my point. There is not a single scripture which shows that libertarian freedom is Scriptural. Ergo, no need to prove that this Scripture or that scripture does not prove libertarian freedom. The onus is not on me to exhaustively drag out every verse of scripture to prove that libertarian freedom is not Scriptural. Neither one of us has enough days left on this earth. And in the next one, you will freely acknowledge that I'm right. The onus is on you to prove your case from the Scriptures.
Nevertheless, I did reference several scriptures in my post.
In the service of the Lord,
Christian.
Because God tells us to preach the Gospel to all nations and races and men everywhere.
No one is born regenerated. We're all born sinners. As God determined from before time, some are regenerated by His grace through faith in Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost works on the sinner's dead heart and changes his desires from carnal sin to God-pleasing obedience. However, God doesn't (that I know of) call anyone on the phone or email anyone personally.
God uses all things according to His plan for His creation. He uses FR to display grievous error and as well as His almighty righteousness. Some will hear the truth; some will hear the error. But all hear by ears given by God.
I was raised a subdued Presbyterian who married a Catholic who then became a staunch Calvinist. God used my husband's righteous witness to open my eyes to the truth of His word (after considerable verbal blood-letting, be assured; I didn't give up my prejudices easily.) 8~)
As Scripture tells us and the Reformation reminded us, God chose the elect from all nations and races and eras from before the foundation of the world for His own good purpose to reflect His glory, and not by anything the fallen creature might do or say or promise or pay. Salvation is given; not accepted. It's a free, non-refundable, non-refusable gift. The door opens to the delivery by God when He determines. Our job is to fall down in gratitude to God, help our fellow man, preach the gospel everywhere, raise strong children who kneel to none but Christ, make the earth into a garden to reflect His glory, and to rest assured and confident, we are His; no man can pluck us from His hand. All Trinitarian believers in Jesus Christ have this comfort.
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:4-10.
Saved by God's grace alone.
aimhigh: "If God predetermines, he predetermines my belief in predestination. So why do you preach it?"
Because it is in my nature to preach it.
Why do you tell all your friends about a great movie you saw the other evening? Why do you recount to friends great plays in the football game that you watched the other night? Why do you share with others the exciting events that occur in your life?
It is our human nature to tell others about the awesome goodness of a God that forgives sins and redeems His people. God's love cannot be contained, it is a fountain that overflows.
How could you possibly keep quiet about such a gift that could forever change the life of your friend, family member, or co-worker? How could you keep quiet about the horrendous judgment that God will impose upon those you love if they do not seek Christ?
I am compelled to preach the Gospel (Good News) because of my love for all men.
"God is wise in heart and mighty in strength. Who has hardened himself against Him and prospered? He removes the mountains, and they do not know When He overturns them in His anger; He shakes the earth out of its place, And its pillars tremble; He commands the sun, and it does not rise; He seals off the stars; He alone spreads out the heavens, And treads on the waves of the sea; He made the Bear, Orion, and the Pleiades, And the chambers of the south; He does great things past finding out, Yes, wonders without number. If He goes by me, I do not see Him; If He moves past, I do not perceive Him; If He takes away, who can hinder Him? Who can say to Him, "What are You doing?'" -- Job 9:4-12.
Spread the good news and you feel even better for it. God's in His heaven; all's right with the world -- ultimately.
Sorry:
"It is our human nature to tell others about the awesome goodness of a God..."
Should have been:
"It is in our born-again, transformed nature to tell..."
indeed if God *must* do anything, He is a puppet. But no one's argued that God *has to* save a man that acts correctly. I certainly don't believe that and that's not what Catholicism teaches. We don't earn our salvation - there are no wages due to us, no matter how good we are. Salvation is a free gift, something God did not have to give to us. But fortunately, He does give it to us :)
Pilgrim: "The Scriptures reveal that the fruit of man follows the nature of man. The Scriptures nowhere inform us that man can act with indifference to his nature."
This concept, when I finally understood it, was a great AHA! moment in my life. I saw that God transformed me into a new creation by His power and that I did not come to accept Christ on my own volition. The great assurance this gives me is that He will in no way desert me:
Phil. 1:6: being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
If you are preaching the Gospel out of love for all men, then your love is hoping for a human response = free will. Otherwise, your love is deceiving you. Where does God's predestination end, at salvation? Would it not determine all my beliefs and actions.
LFW not scriptural? I can think of at least two examples from scripture that only make sense if there is LFW.
there's Deuteronomy 30:15-20. God says to the people, to paraphrase, "if you obey Me, you will be blessed but if you turn away, you will perish." God recognizes that the people have the ability to go either way (libertarian freedom) and is telling them of the consequences of each action. Later on God tells the people "CHOOSE life so that you and your descendants might live." Why would God order them to make a choice between two alternatives (life and death)if the people didn't have the ability to make any choices about anything? It would be like God ordering the people to flap their arms and fly.
Also in Matthew 23:27 Jesus bemoans the fact that although God desires to gather the children of Jerusalem together, they were not WILLING. God willed for the people to come unto Him, but did not force them too - GOd left it up to the people and the people willed to reject God.
There are also passages in Sirach which make LFW very explicit, but I don't imagine you'd accept those as a Protestant.
As for rejecting all philosophy, as aimhigh pointed out, you too are using philosophical arguments. And there's nothing wrong with that. If it wasn't for Christians using philosophy in conjunction with the scriptures, there would be no doctrine of the Trinity.
Also, what's the basis for only using the Scriptures and rejecting all other methods of thought? Nowhere in scripture does it say use *only* scripture as a basis for doctrine. The Calvinist doctrine of "scripture alone" is not scriptural, and can even be considered a "philosophy" of sorts.
But it's the Holy Ghost who changes the heart and allows the words to register.
Did this surprise God?
Or are the wheat and the tares planted together by God to await the harvest?
Every second of every day is a specific part of God's holy and predestinated plan for His creation and the redemption of His flock by His gift of grace through faith in Jesus Christ. All history is a prelude to Calvary.
aimhigh: "If you are preaching the Gospel out of love for all men, then your love is hoping for a human response = free will"
There is love that does not demand a response or recompense. God loves all men in the sense that he bestows common grace on all (i.e. all men benefit from the bounty of creation) although most of those people do not return love or appreciation for His grace.
I am called to love the repentant and unrepentant alike (though I obviously don't do this perfectly) and I cannot, from my human perspective, discern the elect from the unelect.
aimhigh:"Where does God's predestination end, at salvation?"
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
God has prepared good works for us to perform. He has pre-ordained that we perform works that go beyond our salvation.
Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
You'll notice, Jesus said, out of the mouth of God and not out of the mouths of men
but Jesus did not say that every word from the mouth of God is *only* found in Scripture.
as for the "mouths of men" - who do you think wrote Scripture? The bible did not fall out of the sky, after all. Humans inspired by God wrote the bible. If words written by inspired humans can be called "God's word" then why cannot words said by inspired humans be called "God's word" as well?
Besides, Scriptures clearly reveal that libertarian freedom is just a fantasy. I can't help it if you can't see it.
Well put. 'Libertarian free will' is Greek philosophy that has been embraced lock, stock, and barrel by Americans and uncritically accepted by too many who profess Christ as Lord.
Did He ever say, "Go ask Hillel, he knows everything?" Or, "check with Peter"?
No, He did not. He said, "It is written". Written where? In the Scriptures. Where else do you claim it is?
The Word is given only to His servants the prophets.
Revelation 10:7, Amos 3:7
Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Just how do you discern God's words from human words?
Great question. I'd love to hear your response.
I would point out that God authenticated His Word with signs and wonders that multiple eyewitnesses reported. In the case of the apostles, they backed up their testiomony with the sacrifice of their lives. What is the probability that at least 10 apostles and as many as 100 other eyewitnesses would willingly die for a lie? Slim to none. I accept their testimony. I accept the Scriptures i have as the Woed of God. They have stood the test of scrutiny. The same cannot be said of all the councils, creed, and other writings of men.
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
What's these verses all about?
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
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