Why Did God Save Me? - R.C. Sproul

My point was simply that if you don't know why God chose any particular person, you really don't know if God chose a particular person or if predestination is based on foreknowledge. Nothing more; nothing less.

While I don't know by any outward method whether any given person is chosen by God or not, absent a trinitarian, biblical confession of faith in Christ, The bible is clear that Predestination is according to Foreknowledge as the bible defines it, not as is commonly defined as foreseen faith.

My point was that the foreknowledge is of the people, NOT their actions. To hold that God chooses based on foreseen faith, and at the same time hold that apart from Prevenient Grace, they cannot believe, is contradictory.

And you certainly don't know that God predestined predestined people to eternal damnation and Hell. At best, one can only say that not all are saved.

Well, I think that's fairly self-evident, don't you? We know not all are saved. Just as you want to take credit for believing, so you want to blame them for not believing. Calvinists give God the credit for our being able to believe, and also affirm God's Justice in those He does not enable to believe.

Contrary to what others claim, Calvinism hinges on Total Depravity. If man is totally depraved apart from Christ, then the Justice and Wrath of God is rightly due them. There is no injustice in that. That God chooses to save any is His Mercy, and works no injustice to those not saved. There is nothing unfair about it. All have sinned, and all deserve death.

Because the choice even according to Calvnists also has to be a just one (since God is just).

That God is Just is not in question. That is axiomatic. We all believe that as Christians.

So, all men are equally condemned but only some are chosen and others not and then we are suppose to accept that there is a 'secret' critera of Justice that we are not privy to 'this side of heaven'

All men are equally condemned, but only some are chosen, NOT on the basis of some "secret" criteria of Justice, but according to God's Mercy, which is His to show to whomever He wills. If it were according to Justice, no one would be saved, for all have sinned. God's Mercy is evident to those who have received it.

All very well and good, but very mystical, not as the bible reveals the gospel, as even Calvin admits in his comments on 2Pet.3:9

No mysticism involved, my friend. God's mercy is not mystical, nor is His Justice. They are plainly set forth in scripture. The so-called mysticism you want to make an issue of is in reality the fact that God has not revealed the reason why He chooses whom He chooses. You apparently are under the delusion that God has revealed everything about everything. So, you think anyone that says He hasn't is engaging in "mysticism". The reality is, if anyone is being mystical, it's you.

Get it straight, ftD. God chooses whom He Elects to salvation according to His Mercy. He judges sinners according to His Justice and Wrath. Both are fair, and no injustice exists in His exercise of His sovereign perogative to do as He wills with His Creation. It is not based on whim, caprice, or arbitrariness. All of God's actions are based on His Holy Nature, Perfect, sinless, and without any stain of iniquity.

Nice little speech but I read it before in Calvin's Institutes.

Too bad you didn't understand what you read.

Now, since all men are equal before God in sin, maybe you can tell me how the Just God decided on choosing some and not others?

His choosing is not a matter of His Justice, but of His Mercy. Your appeal to God's Justice is a straw man, because God's Mercy is what is at work in Election to Salvation. His Justice was borne by Christ, for those whom He chose before the foundation of the world. What you want to do is to say that God's Mercy is unfair, because it is not equally given. The decision to show Mercy is god's alone, the same as the governor's decision to pardon a death-row inmate, or to commute his sentence to life in prison. it's not a matter of "fair" it's a matter of mercy.

Your insistence that Election is according to Foreseen faith makes God a debtor to man, because the logical question implicit in your doctrine is "how could God not save those He foresees having faith in Him?"

Not to mention the absolutely contradictory nature of election according to foreseen faith and believing that no man can turn to Christ without prevenient grace. And you'll never answer the question of what is it in one man that makes him choose Christ, while the man standing next to him does not? Since you deny that is God's monergistic action toward the man, then it must be something within him that makes him smarter, better, wiser than his Christ-rejecting neighbor. But if that is so, then that man is not quite as depraved, not quite as sinful, not quite as dead in sins as the other man. So in reality, you argue against the depravity of man, and for a Pelagian view of man as being able to obey God's Commands by native ability, because you don't believe God would command of man anything that man cannot do.

No answer? That's alright, no Calvinist has an answer, all they have is appeals to God's secret counsel and Rom.9:20 wrenched out of context.

I gave you an answer. And it will be noted that I did not appeal to Romans 9:20 at any point in my answer.

Nice little speech but I read it before in Calvin's Institutes. Too bad you didn't understand what you read. Now, since all men are equal before God in sin, maybe you can tell me how the Just God decided on choosing some and not others? His choosing is not a matter of His Justice, but of His Mercy. Your appeal to God's Justice is a straw man, because God's Mercy is what is at work in Election to Salvation. His Justice was borne by Christ, for those whom He chose before the foundation of the world. What you want to do is to say that God's Mercy is unfair, because it is not equally given. The decision to show Mercy is god's alone, the same as the governor's decision to pardon a death-row inmate, or to commute his sentence to life in prison. it's not a matter of "fair" it's a matter of mercy. Your insistence that Election is according to Foreseen faith makes God a debtor to man, because the logical question implicit in your doctrine is "how could God not save those He foresees having faith in Him?" Not to mention the absolutely contradictory nature of election according to foreseen faith and believing that no man can turn to Christ without prevenient grace. And you'll never answer the question of what is it in one man that makes him choose Christ, while the man standing next to him does not? Since you deny that is God's monergistic action toward the man, then it must be something within him that makes him smarter, better, wiser than his Christ-rejecting neighbor. But if that is so, then that man is not quite as depraved, not quite as sinful, not quite as dead in sins as the other man. So in reality, you argue against the depravity of man, and for a Pelagian view of man as being able to obey God's Commands by native ability, because you don't believe God would command of man anything that man cannot do. No answer? That's alright, no Calvinist has an answer, all they have is appeals to God's secret counsel and Rom.9:20 wrenched out of context. I gave you an answer. And it will be noted that I did not appeal to Romans 9:20 at any point in my answer.

No, you just gave me the wrong answer.

Calvin does appeal to the justice of God as does Boettner.

I think you need to go reread you Calvin and stop wasting your time with light-weights like Sproul.

For what more seems to be said here than just that the power of God is such as cannot be hindered, so that he can do whatsoever he pleases? But it is far otherwise. For what stronger reason can be given than when we are ordered to reflect who God is? How could he who is the Judge of the world commit any unrighteousness? If it properly belongs to the nature of God to do judgment, he must naturally love justice and abhor injustice. Wherefore, the Apostle did not, as if he had been caught in a difficulty, have recourse to evasion; he only intimated that the procedure of divine justice is too high to be scanned by human measure, or comprehended by the feebleness of human intellect.

Thus, Calvin's ultimate appeal is not to mercy nor to even power, but to Justice.

So once again, why are some elected and some condemned?

All are equal, and you say that God in his mercy saved some and not others, what critera did He use if all were seen as the same?

Thus, Calvin's ultimate appeal is not to mercy nor to even power, but to Justice. So once again, why are some elected and some condemned? All are equal, and you say that God in his mercy saved some and not others, what critera did He use if all were seen as the same?

The Justice of God is essential, because His Mercy is meaningless without the backdrop of Justice. Why do you have such a hard time with that? Calvin did not say God's choice of some sinners unto salvation was based on His Justice. Calvin said that God's Justice is righteous and Just, and therefore so are His Judgments. He's not talking about Election, he's talking about Judgment and Divine Justice in this quote.

What is the criteria God uses for selecting some sinners and not selecting others? He doesn't tell us specifically. Therefore, like it or not, it is a mystery unto us, but not to God. If it pleases Him to do so, He may reveal it to us in Glory, but it is not revealed in scripture.

That which is not revealed is by definition a mystery, something which belongs to the secret counsel of the Most High. But the mere mention of such a concept sends you into a Calvinist-bashing tirade. You won't even let God be God! You demand that He reveal whatever you want to know, RIGHT NOW! And when He doesn't, then you say, "aha!! I knew it was mysticism all along. Because of that, it CAN'T be True!"

My, what a turn around!

So now Justice is essential, before you stated that only God's will was.

Why do you have such a hard time with that? Calvin did not say God's choice of some sinners unto salvation was based on His Justice. Calvin said that God's Justice is righteous and Just, and therefore so are His Judgments. He's not talking about Election, he's talking about Judgment and Divine Justice in this quote.

The basis of his mercy is God's justice, so that the reason anyone is chosen must be a fair one as well as a merciful one.

That is exactly what Calvin states, as well as Boettner.

Thus, selection cannot be based on mere will, but must have justice underlying it.

Well, thank you for admitting that the essential issue in Calvinism-election is a mystery.

Why do you insist that this criteria must be knowable, or known? Will you not accept salvation otherwise? At various times you have made the charge of arbitrariness, capriciousness, or whim as the basis of God's choice, according to Calvinists, which you know full well is a false statement. God had a reason, of that I have no doubt. But if he chooses not to reveal it, who am I (or you?) to get all huffy about it? Since when is He required to satisfy your curiosity? You certainly don't believe that God has revealed 100% of who He is, how He works, and what His reasons are for doing what He does, do you? That which is not revealed is by definition a mystery, something which belongs to the secret counsel of the Most High. But the mere mention of such a concept sends you into a Calvinist-bashing tirade. You won't even let God be God! You demand that He reveal whatever you want to know, RIGHT NOW! And when He doesn't, then you say, "aha!! I knew it was mysticism all along. Because of that, it CAN'T be True!"

It can't be true because it contradicts clear scripture.

It can't be true because it's final appeal is not to what we do know about God as he has revealed Himself, but an appeal to ignore what contradicts that very revelation.

Hence, the constant refrain from Calvinists not to ask that question (Rom.9:20),but the Calvinists dogmatic assertion that election as they define is right, even though they cannot prove it, but must appeal to mysticism.

My, what a turn around! So now Justice is essential, before you stated that only God's will was.

No turn-around at all. I have not deviated from what I have been saying. You, however, have been all over the map! The basis of condemnation for sin, and the Judgment of God, is God's Justice, as the expression of His Wrath against sin and all that is not Holy as He is Holy. The basis for Election is NOT Justice, but God's Mercy. Your quote of Calvin is not talking about Election, but about God's Justice.

The basis of his mercy is God's justice, so that the reason anyone is chosen must be a fair one as well as a merciful one. That is exactly what Calvin states, as well as Boettner. Thus, selection cannot be based on mere will, but must have justice underlying it.

How so? If Justice underlies His Mercy and Election, then you are forced to admit that some men are worthy of salvation in and of themselves. You cannot show me one verse of scripture that states such a thing. No man is worthy of salvation, because if they were, then salvation is no more a free gift, but an obligation on the part of God to them.

God's Mercy stands in stark relief to His Justice. Justice demands that man die for sinning. God's Mercy is shown in Christ dying in their place, the Righteous for the unrighteous, in order that those for whom Christ died (The Elect), can be clothed with the Righteousness of Christ, and thereby stand before God, because it pleased God to do so, not because God was under obligation to do so, or in need of doing so.

It can't be true because it contradicts clear scripture. It can't be true because it's final appeal is not to what we do know about God as he has revealed Himself, but an appeal to ignore what contradicts that very revelation

You are so worried about why God chooses any man, that you make up reasons that contradict scripture and logic, and then cast stones at me for being honest enough to say that God has not revealed why He has Mercy on some, and not others. Foreseen faith cannot be the reason, because it contradicts your doctrine of Prevenient Grace. Foreseen faith also cannot be the reason, because it makes God a respecter of persons. But you stubbornly cling to that belief, because you can't accept that God would do something and not tell us the reason for why He does it. You demand answers from God, forgetting that Job did, and God's answer to him, was basically, "When you can do what I do, then you can question Me. Got a problem with that?", and challenged Job to provide some answers of his own, which were far above his ability to answer, putting Job in his place, and humbling him.

I do not appeal to "mysticism" as you charge. That is a made-up, derogatory, false charge that you use to try to put Calvinists on the defensive, and deflect away from the fact that you CAN'T answer the clear scripture and reasoning Calvinists base their doctrine on. You quote Calvin and others out of context when it suits you, although you don't believe a word Calvin wrote. You demand that all Calvinists must believe and agree with every word that Calvin wrote, or you say we think we're better than Calvin, another false charge. The fact of the matter is that you cannot stand before Calvinism and the Bible, so you twist and turn and try to deflect in order to hide the paucity of your own beliefs.

We have proved it, over and over again. You just don't want to accept the answer. I think it's hilarious that you constantly trot out Rom 9:20, and try to shoot darts at it, when we haven't appealed to that scripture in this discussion. You must have a real problem with that verse, because you constantly keep bringing it up, and shooting at it. Another deflection tactic on your part. You have been caught in some serious logical faux pas, and your doctrine is unraveling. Keep it up. It's entertaining....

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