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Pope misses Mass, says suffering helps save souls (Pope forgets the lessons of the Inquisition)
Reuters (via Drudge) ^ | 02/11/05 | Phil Stewart

Posted on 02/11/2005 11:43:24 AM PST by xm177e2

VATICAN CITY, Feb 11 (Reuters) - Pope John Paul, still convalescing after 10 days in hospital, told the world's sick on Friday that their suffering was "precious", but did not deliver his message in person at a special service for sick people.

The 84-year-old Pontiff returned to the Vatican on Thursday evening after doctors decided he had recovered from an acute breathing crisis brought on by a bout of influenza.

But Vatican officials are taking no risks with his frail health and the Pope missed Friday's commemorative Mass, held to mark the day the Roman Catholic Church dedicates each year to sick people.

Instead, a senior Cardinal read the Pope's speech, which made no reference to his time in hospital.

"Your suffering is never useless, dear sick people. Moreover, it's a precious thing," the speech said. "If you bring together your suffering and pain, you can be his (God's) privileged helpers in the salvation of souls".

Besides his recent breathing problems, the Pope suffers from Parkinson's disease and severe arthritis.

He no longer walks, has difficulty speaking and his urgent admission to hospital raised fresh questions over how long he can remain head of the world's 1.1 billion Catholics.

In an apparent bid to allay fears about his health, John Paul was brought home from hospital in full public view, sitting in a brightly lit Popemobile for the five minute drive through Rome, which was broadcast live on Italian television.

To make the point that it was business as usual for the Vatican bureaucracy, the Holy See announced a flurry of appointments on Friday, including a successor to Paris Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger and posts in Mexico and Angola.

The Vatican has yet to say whether the Polish Pope will make his usual weekly blessing from his apartment windows on Sunday.

John Paul appeared at his hospital window last Sunday, speaking in a hoarse, barely audible voice that fuelled debate over whether he should resign.

Church law says a Pope can resign, but it is a rare event. The last Pope to resign willingly was Celestine V, who stepped down in 1294. Gregory XII reluctantly abdicated in 1415 when more than one Pope was reigning at the same time.

But the Pope's battle against illness and the weakness of the flesh is also seen as an inspiration by the faithful, even if the Pontiff cannot fully express himself verbally.

"The sick Pope is the icon of the suffering of humanity", Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone told ANSA news agency.

"There is a profound meaning in this event. The Pope ... shows his spiritual strength," Bertone said, adding that his struggle took on more meaning "in a society that increasingly values youth".


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Moral Issues
KEYWORDS: johnpaulii; motherteresa; pain; pope; religion; suffering; teresa; torture
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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Given Mother Teresa's attitude towards suffering (she was in favor of it), and her policies (she increased it when she could in the victims of her hostels), shouldn't we be wary of what the Pope is saying?

According to Hitchens, the result of MT's views was basically torture in the hospices. Needles were re-used (even after their tips had blunted) because an increase in pain for patients might help to save their souls, or so the theory went. Painkillers were not used, because that would lessen the pain, and therefore lessen the chances of a person going to Heaven.

Mother Teresa has been favoured with huge sums of money during the past 30 years, but patients' illnesses have been wrongly diagnosed by unqualified sisters and volunteers unable to distinguish between the curable and incurable . Mother Teresa prefers providence to planning, and the very strictest economy is always enforced - much to the detriment of the patient's interests. It is interesting to note that, despite the enormous sums involved ($50 million remains in a cheque account in the Bronx), needles are used over and over again, and are rinsed under the cold water tap. The nuns' answer to "why are you not boiling water and sterilizing your needles?" was simple: "There's no point. There's no time." Perhaps the patients take too long to die, and hastening death saves money. Cynical as that may be, Mother Teresa's global income is more than enough to equip several first class clinics like some of the finest in the West that she herself has checked into. To a person in the last agonies of cancer, and suffering unbearable pain, she said with a smile: "You are suffering like Christ on the cross. So Jesus must be kissing you." A sign on the wall of the morgue of Mother Teresa's Home for the Dying reads "I am going to Heaven today".

Mary Loudon, a volunteer in Calcutta, was shocked by what she saw there. "It looked a bit like the photos of Belsen", she said. "All patients had shaved heads, there were old stretcher beds, no chairs, and not much medical care or painkillers". In another home, despite the existence of huge sums of money: "The sisters are rarely allowed to spend money on the poor they are trying to help. Instead they are forced to plead poverty, thus manipulating generous, credulous people into giving more goods, services and cash." So great wealth has no good effect on the lives of patients and volunteers. In a damp house heating remains off throughout winter and several sisters consequently got TB. This was stated by a woman who left the Missionaries of Charity for the same reason she joined it, "a love of her fellow humans".

Mother Teresa has a San Francisco hostel named The Gift of Love; it is for homeless men with HIV. They are not allowed to watch TV or smoke or drink or invite friends, not even when they are dying, and so, of course, they are exceptionally depressed. One man said how afraid he was of dying without morphine. It is hard to find anyone with a good word for The Gift of Love.

If I'm in a hospital, and I'm in serious pain, I'm goint to want painkillers. How would you feel if someone deliberately denied you or a family member painkillers while you/they were suffering, because of some religious conviction?

Is he just innocently telling sick people not to despair, or is upholding pain and suffering as good things?

If suffering is so beautiful, will Catholic hospitals prescribe the full amount of painkillers to patients, or will they withhold a little, just to make the place more holy? I thought the Catholic Church did away with its celebration of human suffering when it put the Inquisition to an end. Or did Mel Gibson bring all this ugly stuff back?

1 posted on 02/11/2005 11:43:24 AM PST by xm177e2
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To: Salvation; LadyPilgrim

ping Thank you


2 posted on 02/11/2005 11:45:11 AM PST by anonymoussierra (Quo Vadis Domine? Quo Vadis? Thank you)
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To: xm177e2
I thought the Catholic Church did away with its celebration of human suffering when it put the Inquisition to an end.

When did that happen?

3 posted on 02/11/2005 11:49:37 AM PST by siunevada
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To: xm177e2
Well, I must say that this is probably one of the more ignorant posts I've seen for a while.

Perhaps your problem is that you either have not read, or have forgotten, the connection made between suffering and faith in the NT. Might I suggest a Lenten discipline of re-reading the New Testament, from start to finish?

4 posted on 02/11/2005 11:55:52 AM PST by r9etb
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To: xm177e2; Great Dane; Alberta's Child; headsonpikes; coteblanche; Ryle; albertabound; mitchbert; ...
Given the content of your homepage, it's hardly surprising that you'd use the rather transparent pretext of posting what's essentially a mere up-date as to The Holy Father's current physical health to launch into an anti-Catholic diatribe bordering upon open hatred.
5 posted on 02/11/2005 11:56:02 AM PST by GMMAC (lots of terror cells in Canada - I'll be waving my US flag when the Marines arrive!)
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To: GMMAC

Suffering, willingly, for the glory of God, is something very much part of Christianity and the Catholic tradition:

Here are a view verses to think on


Matthew 16:24-25

Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

1 Corinthians 1:5

For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too.

Romans 8:17

and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Philippians 3:7-11

But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ.

Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith; that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

Colossians 1:24

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church

but he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." I will all the more gladly boast of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities; for when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Corinthians 12:9,10


6 posted on 02/11/2005 12:01:22 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: xm177e2

Given the state of Christ's church in the West, a return of the Holy Inquisition in its entirety, not just some of its lessons, is very sorely needed.


7 posted on 02/11/2005 12:11:01 PM PST by annalex
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To: xm177e2

You have serious problems and obviously don't understand what you are talking about.


8 posted on 02/11/2005 12:16:06 PM PST by Mershon
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To: Knitting A Conundrum
Suffering, willingly, for the glory of God, is something very much part of Christianity and the Catholic tradition

I would definitely make a very clear distinction between willing and unwilling suffering.

And of course I don't include martyrs and such as suffering needlessly.

What I'm afraid of is not that Catholics will choose to suffer because the Pope makes this statement, but that some people will not be given the choice (as allegedly occurred in Mother Teresa's missions).

9 posted on 02/11/2005 12:19:56 PM PST by xm177e2 (Stalinists, Maoists, Ba'athists, Pacifists: Why are they always on the same side?)
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To: xm177e2; Salvation; LadyPilgrim; All

"xm177e2"you write"If suffering is so beautiful, will Catholic hospitals prescribe the full amount of painkillers to patients, or will they withhold a little, just to make the place more holy?"I will write "Holy Cross" this is total "suffering"Thank you


10 posted on 02/11/2005 12:21:22 PM PST by anonymoussierra (Quo Vadis Domine? Quo Vadis? Thank you)
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To: xm177e2
How would you feel if someone deliberately denied you or a family member painkillers while you/they were suffering, because of some religious conviction?

Please post examples of any Catholic health care professional or Catholic hospital witholding painkillers against a patient's will for any but a valid medical reason.

My wife is a Catholic physician working at a Catholic hospital, and as far as I'm concerned, you just slandered her.

11 posted on 02/11/2005 12:22:13 PM PST by Campion
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To: xm177e2

Suffering gets no brownie points unless it's undertaken willingly...and if you want to believe Hitchens about Mother Teresa, well, that's your option.


12 posted on 02/11/2005 12:22:16 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: xm177e2
According to Hitchens

Stopped reading right there. His outburst during the broadcast of her funeral was one of the most spiteful, unsupported little temper tantrums I've ever had the displeasure of hearing.

13 posted on 02/11/2005 12:24:01 PM PST by RosieCotton (A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it. - GK Chesterton)
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To: xm177e2
According to Hitchens

Love the Hitch.

Did he ever follow the money trail and find out where the money was going?

14 posted on 02/11/2005 12:24:07 PM PST by siunevada
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To: Knitting A Conundrum

"brownie points" term was not used literally...it has to do with the transforming nature of letting God use your life experience, including pain and suffering, to make you more into the person you can be, and to santify all aspects of human life. FYI...


15 posted on 02/11/2005 12:24:20 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: xm177e2
"Your suffering is never useless, dear sick people. Moreover, it's a precious thing," the speech said. "If you bring together your suffering and pain, you can be his (God's) privileged helpers in the salvation of souls".

Is there any scripture that supports this? Or is this more RCBS?

16 posted on 02/11/2005 12:35:17 PM PST by Netizen (jmo)
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To: xm177e2
According to Hitchens...Or did Mel Gibson bring all this ugly stuff back?

Your post is akin to a big hunk of idiot-meat, sandwiched between the above two pieces of jackass bread.

17 posted on 02/11/2005 12:37:51 PM PST by AAABEST (Kyrie eleison - Christe eleison †)
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To: annalex

If a true return could be achieved, it might help, but who would be capable of setting up the administration, what with all the corrupt bishops of today?

BTW, that's a pretty bold statement for you to make. Congratulations.


18 posted on 02/11/2005 12:43:42 PM PST by donbosco74 ("Men and devils make war on me in this great city." (Paris) --St. Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort)
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To: xm177e2
Oh yes. Mother Theresa. Life dedicated to the poorest of the poor. Obviously a tool of Satan.

Good grief. At least we know the Church is winning, when her enemies get this desperate.
19 posted on 02/11/2005 12:44:34 PM PST by Lilllabettt
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To: Knitting A Conundrum; AAABEST; Campion

Extreme Humility

Our Example in Suffering!

20 posted on 02/11/2005 12:50:16 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
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To: xm177e2
I don't like your attitude.

Me and some of my Opus Dei buddies have been checking up on your IP address and we know where you're at. We're thinking of paying you a little visit. Depending on your attitude from here on out, we may or may not bring with us some members of the Missionaries of Charity Special Torture Division and perhaps a handful of angry Swiss Guards, also.

We'll show you what suffering means.

Just shut up, OK? You know way too much. This is supposed to be a secret. Only a small number of Opus Dei special operatives and an elite Knights Templar unit are supposed to know this and here you are blabbing all over the internet.

What goes on in our hospices is none of your business.

21 posted on 02/11/2005 12:53:25 PM PST by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

lol


22 posted on 02/11/2005 12:55:12 PM PST by AAABEST (Kyrie eleison - Christe eleison †)
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To: Kolokotronis

Beautiful Icon! Amen!


23 posted on 02/11/2005 12:55:59 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: marshmallow

lol...and you are sure your handle should be marshmallow?


24 posted on 02/11/2005 12:56:55 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: donbosco74
The Inquisition typically operated outside of the jurisdiction of the bishops, since its purpose was to eradicate particular heresies in the church on Papal orders. It was, for most part, required to cooperate with the bishops.

The pope did not establish the Inquisition as a distinct and separate tribunal; what he did was to appoint special but permanent judges, who executed their doctrinal functions In the name of the pope. Where they sat, there was the Inquisition

[...]

The Inquisitor, strictly speaking, was a special but permanent judge, acting in the name of the pope and clothed by him with the right and the duty to deal legally with offences against the Faith; he had, however, to adhere to the established rules of canonical procedure and pronounce the customary penalties.

That Gregory IX, through his appointment of Dominicans and Franciscans as inquisitors, withdrew the suppression of heresy from the proper courts (i.e. from the bishops), is a reproach that in so general a form cannot be sustained. So little did he think of displacing episcopal authority that, on the contrary he provided explicitly that no inquisitional tribunal was to work anywhere without the diocesan bishops co-operation. And if, on the strength of their papal jurisdiction, inquisitors occasionally manifested too great an inclination to act independently of episcopal authority it was precisely the popes who kept them within right bounds.

(Source: New Advent: Inquisition)

Note that the very fact that the Popes had to urge cooperation means that there was no direct administration of the Inquisitors by the bishops. Which is exactly what we need.

The heir to the Inquisition is extant. I forget which Vatican institution it is now. It is not, evidently, doing much.

25 posted on 02/11/2005 1:08:46 PM PST by annalex
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To: xm177e2
Or did Mel Gibson bring all this ugly stuff back?

You really should type in "sarcasm now off" when you say something this outrageous. Otherwise people might take you seriously or indistinguishable for a fool.

26 posted on 02/11/2005 1:18:24 PM PST by vox_freedom (Fear no evil)
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To: xm177e2
Christ was made perfect through His own suffering. We can only test our faith in Christ through endurance - and that's by going through tough times, and sometimes that involves sickness.

It is at these times we can strengthen our faith in Christ, and find comfort in the embrace of the Sacred Heart.

That's what the Pope meant, IMO.

I think you are reading the wrong message into one simple line.

27 posted on 02/11/2005 1:22:32 PM PST by Happygal (liberalism - a narrow tribal outlook largely founded on class prejudice)
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To: Netizen

RCBS? The entire Holy Bible is Roman Catholic. Sola Scriptura is the BS.


28 posted on 02/11/2005 2:57:31 PM PST by Gerard.P (If you've lost your faith, you don't know you've lost it. ---Fr. Malachi Martin R.I.P.)
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To: xm177e2
I would definitely make a very clear distinction between willing and unwilling suffering.

You're correct to do so. Our Lord taught us the merit of willing suffering, Matthew 16:24, Mark 8:34, Mark 10:24, Luke 9:23.

What I'm afraid of is not that Catholics will choose to suffer because the Pope makes this statement, but that some people will not be given the choice (as allegedly occurred in Mother Teresa's missions).

Being that concerned, could you supply another source for this happening at her missions? You do have more than one source, since it's that significant, don't you? After all, she did have many facilities and cared for many, many of the 'lowest' in society.
29 posted on 02/11/2005 3:35:41 PM PST by Mike Fieschko
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To: Netizen
Is there any scripture that supports this? Or is this more RCBS?

Colossians 1:24. RCBS is a company that makes very fine reloading equipment.

30 posted on 02/11/2005 3:39:58 PM PST by Campion
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To: Kolokotronis; xm177e2
Please read "xm177e2" this is "suffering"total "suffering"thank you Thank you "Kolokotronis"
31 posted on 02/11/2005 4:05:44 PM PST by anonymoussierra (Quo Vadis Domine? Quo Vadis? Thank you)
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To: All

32 posted on 02/11/2005 4:31:07 PM PST by anonymoussierra (Quo Vadis Domine? Quo Vadis? Thank you)
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To: anonymoussierra

**If suffering is so beautiful, will Catholic hospitals prescribe the full amount of painkillers to patients, or will they withhold a little, just to make the place more holy?**

Why so sarcastic?


33 posted on 02/11/2005 5:18:55 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: xm177e2

**If suffering is so beautiful, will Catholic hospitals prescribe the full amount of painkillers to patients, or will they withhold a little, just to make the place more holy? **

Why so sarcastic?


34 posted on 02/11/2005 5:23:02 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: xm177e2

Yours is a hateful, pitiful little mind, isn't it?


I pray for an abatement of your ignorance and spite...it threatens your redemption.


35 posted on 02/11/2005 5:23:50 PM PST by Petronski (I'm not all that cranky anymore. Someday I'll say just why.)
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To: AAABEST
Your post is akin to a big hunk of idiot-meat, sandwiched between the above two pieces of jackass bread.

Marshmallow made a wonderful effort, but you get my prize. LOL

36 posted on 02/11/2005 5:26:53 PM PST by Petronski (I'm not all that cranky anymore. Someday I'll say just why.)
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To: xm177e2
That was a pretty embarrassing post. Have you been drinking alot lately?
37 posted on 02/11/2005 6:30:06 PM PST by escapefromboston (manny ortez: mvp)
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To: escapefromboston

I'm sorry to see that some (I don't refer to you) posters
are displaying the kind of personal, ad hominem vituperative attacks that enable others to justify their
charges of hypocrisy against Christians. Relative to the
matter of suffering, some distinctions need to be made.
It has always accepted and known that certain types of
suffering lead to great spiritual insights. Read the Lives
of the Saints. Having said that, it has NEVER been part
of a genuine religious faith to believe that gratuitously
or sadistically or wantonly inflicted suffering is anything
but evil. Some types of suffering can elevate spiritually
and some can degrade and dehumanize and embitter. And the
spiritual pontential and condition of the recipient
matters. Christopher Hitchens is vehemently anti-religious
but he is an independent thinker who has supported Bush
and the war against terror - despite his leftist leanings.
And he does so with a humor and irony that are delightful.
When we deal with other human beings we cannot lose our
own humanity by HATING. As Bobby Burns said, "There's so
so much good in the worst of us, And so much that's bad
in the best of us, It ill-behooves any of us, To talk
about the rest of us."


38 posted on 02/11/2005 7:06:03 PM PST by T.L.Sink (stopew)
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To: escapefromboston

I'm sorry to see that some (I don't refer to you) posters
are displaying the kind of personal, ad hominem vituperative attacks that enable others to justify their
charges of hypocrisy against Christians. Relative to the
matter of suffering, some distinctions need to be made.
It has always accepted and known that certain types of
suffering lead to great spiritual insights. Read the Lives
of the Saints. Having said that, it has NEVER been part
of a genuine religious faith to believe that gratuitously
or sadistically or wantonly inflicted suffering is anything
but evil. Some types of suffering can elevate spiritually
and some can degrade and dehumanize and embitter. And the
spiritual pontential and condition of the recipient
matters. Christopher Hitchens is vehemently anti-religious
but he is an independent thinker who has supported Bush
and the war against terror - despite his leftist leanings.
And he does so with a humor and irony that are delightful.
When we deal with other human beings we cannot lose our
own humanity by HATING. As Bobby Burns said, "There's so
so much good in the worst of us, And so much that's bad
in the best of us, It ill-behooves any of us, To talk
about the rest of us."


39 posted on 02/11/2005 7:10:32 PM PST by T.L.Sink (stopew)
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To: Netizen
Is there any scripture that supports this? Or is this more RCBS?

Plenty (see post #6 for examples).

Don't you read your Bible?

40 posted on 02/11/2005 7:15:11 PM PST by IMRight ("Eye" See BS)
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To: xm177e2

Repeating rumors from "The Atheist Foundation"? Come back when you have a source that is anything besides foaming-at-the-mouth hate mongerers.


41 posted on 02/11/2005 8:00:26 PM PST by dangus
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To: annalex

I forget the new name, but the name was changed from "Inquisitor General" only in the late 1990s.


42 posted on 02/11/2005 8:03:20 PM PST by dangus
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To: r9etb

Thank you,rtetb for your post. I'm rather outdone right now and speechless!


43 posted on 02/11/2005 8:08:00 PM PST by Lady In Blue ( President 'SEABISCUIT' AKA George W Bush)
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To: xm177e2

What I can believe is that Mother Therese, forced by circumstances in India to use substandard medical equipment, would tell her patients that their experience of suffering drew them closer to Christ, to console them in their suffering and strengthen them in their faith. Have a vicious, hateful anti-Christian misunderstand rumors and spin in the worst possible light, and voila! Let's not forget that there were plenty of nationalist Hindus who would love to malign Catholic missionaries; although every Indian without exception that I've ever met in this country was remarkably peaceable, I have known people whose family members were slaughtered by nationalistic Hindu mobs in India.

It's also worth noting that even Hitchens calls such stories rumors. One would wonder why you would exerpt the rantings of a hate-crazed, left-wing atheist and post them to a religion forum, accepting them as if they were fact with greater certainty than the author himself.


44 posted on 02/11/2005 8:15:08 PM PST by dangus
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To: T.L.Sink

When allegations are as unsubstantiated as Hitchens', it is difficult to refute the assertions; you cannot refute a proof that has not been offered. Instead, the only support for the claim is the reputation of the person making it. In such a case, pointing out the extreme prejudice of the accuser is not mere ad-hominem; it is refuting the only evidence provided.

I hardly would call people registering their offense "hating." I'll give you that there was one absurdly silly comment about a metaphorical sandwhich. Besides that one comment, the strongest comment made against the person who posted this slander is "You have serious problems and obviously don't understand what you are talking about." That's hardly "hate."


45 posted on 02/11/2005 8:22:23 PM PST by dangus
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To: Netizen
RCBS makes some really nice reloading equipment ... I fail to comprehend your animosity toward them.
46 posted on 02/11/2005 8:44:38 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: xm177e2; All
King Vanity and I have been lifting up others through our suffering in Prayers for many years.

We understand perfectly.

It gives us an important role and allows us to be part of the Catholic Church from afar.

All the Blessings are unknown to us.

Quite a few, we have ease in physical pain, no self pity, perseverance, the love of life and all that is unknown to us.

Next time you have trials or a bad flu try it, and it will put an end to your need to understanding what it all about, Alfie.

Think of the suffering Mary felt at the foot of the cross.
She took that heartache and lifted up others with what pained her heart.
St. Kolbe suffered most of his life with chronic illness and through lifting up others through his suffering enabled him to keep the presses rolling.

It is quite silly to debate this topic when each one of you can do this and there you will find the answer and be humbled and filled with the peace of the Holy Spirit.

It is an awesome gift to give to others whom you lift up.
47 posted on 02/11/2005 10:47:35 PM PST by oceanperch (2005 is going to be an Awesome Year, which way that will go only God knows)
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To: oceanperch
"Think of the suffering Mary felt at the foot of the cross.
She took that heartache and lifted up others with what pained her heart."

My father-in-law, much loved and very old, died last year during Great Lent. During his last illness and after his death, my wife found great comfort in going three evenings a week to our Orthodox parish where as part of our Lenten cycle, the Akathist Hymn, praises to the Most Holy Mother of God, were chanted. She told me she got great comfort there chanting to Panagia because she knew that she had suffered so much at the foot of the Cross watching her Son die an agonizing death and that she understood her pain in watching her father die. She said it was as if she could share her grief with the Theotokos. That Great Lent brought my wife very, very close to the Blessed Virgin, through suffering.
48 posted on 02/12/2005 5:50:15 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
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To: dangus

I disagree with Hitchen's anti-religious views but
simply asserted that he is an independent thinker who
writes with great wit and irony - and usually can support
his assertions, at least to his own satisfaction. Relative
to my remark about vituperative ad homnem attacks, I was
only commenting on what I SAW in some postings:
(1) "yours is a pitiful and hateful little mind"
(2) "...your ignorance and spite."
(3) "Have you been drinking?"
(4) " your post is a big hunk of idiot meat"

I could go on but you get the picture. If this isn't
ad hominem and vituperative, I'll have to check the
dictionary. I'm just saying this sort of personal,
insulting attack is not a substitute for rational
argumentation. And we only belittle ourselves - not
others - when we so speak.


49 posted on 02/12/2005 10:32:09 AM PST by T.L.Sink (stopew)
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To: xm177e2

He is speaking to 'how' we suffer albeit physical or emotional. Whether we offer up those trying moments with humility drawing ourselves closer to God. It by no means doesn't imply you don't receive normal medical help when needed. And the Catholic hospitals do not withhold medications.

Mel Gibson's the Passion Of The Christ portrayed the beauty in suffereing with Christ nailed to the cross and dying for us. That is love.


50 posted on 02/12/2005 10:43:48 AM PST by dcnd9
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