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Priestly Faculties Granted to Patriotic Association Priests in the United States
Cardinal Kung Foundation ^ | July 2004

Posted on 02/20/2005 8:48:06 PM PST by Land of the Irish

Some U. S. dioceses, such as New York, Boston, San Francisco, and Washington, D.C., have granted priestly faculties to Patriotic Association priests, allowing them to openly offer Holy Mass and administer other Sacraments, including hearing confessions in Roman Catholic parishes. May Catholics who are the recipients of these sacraments from a Patriotic Association priest are in the dark, because they do not know the identity of these Patriotic Association priests.

According to item 5 of the Holy See’s 1988 China directives, “The Patriotic bishops and priests are not to be invited or even allowed to celebrate religious functions in public, either in the churches or in the oratories of the various religious institutes.”

We do not understand, given the above very clear guideline, how this program of giving faculties to the Patriotic Association priests and allowing them to administer the sacraments in public could be approved by the bishops in the United States.

The most recent case is the appointment of a Patriotic Association priest, Father Ruan Guozhang, to the parish of St. Joseph Church in the China Town of New York City. The written notice sent by the pastor of St. Joseph to his parishioners said simply that Father Ruan will be joining him at St Joseph Church. The pastor did not mention that Father Ruan was from the Diocese of Fuzhou of the Chinese Open (Patriotic Association) Church. He also did not mention that Father Ruan was a Patriotic Association priest who is not a Roman Catholic priest in full communion with the Pope. However, the pastor did unexplainably mention that Father Ruan was from the Diocese of Hong Kong, which he is not unless the Hong Kong diocese has recently incardinated him. By mentioning the Hong Kong diocese, the pastor had given Father Ruan some legitimacy since there is no official Patriotic Association in the Hong Kong diocese. People should have the facts in deciding from which priest they want to receive a sacrament. Without making publicly known in writing that Father Ruan is from the Chinese Open Patriotic Association Church, the faithful are deprived once again of important facts about the priest before receiving a sacrament, because they will take for granted that the priest administering sacraments in a Roman Catholic Church has to be a Roman Catholic priest without knowing that it is actually the contrary at St. Joseph Church of New York’s China Town.

In fact, Father Ruan was ordained by the Patriotic Association Bishop Aloysius Jin, with whom the Vatican has never declared to be in communion. In addition, Father Ruan reports to Bishop Zheng Chang Cheng who is a Chinese Patriotic Association bishop, with whom the Vatican has also never declared to be in communion. Yet, he will be working in the New York diocese as if he were a Roman Catholic priest, which he is not.

We did not understand such situations when they occurred in other dioceses. We understand even less that such a situation could have happened in New York diocese inasmuch as His Eminence Edward Cardinal Egan is understood to be a “conservative” bishop. I, therefore, wrote a letter to Cardinal Egan on May 7, 2004, stating my abovementioned thoughts and requesting his explanations. To this date, I have not received his reply.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic
KEYWORDS: catholic; china; cpa; egan; newyork

1 posted on 02/20/2005 8:48:11 PM PST by Land of the Irish
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To: Akron Al; Alberta's Child; Andrew65; AniGrrl; apologia_pro_vita_sua; attagirl; BearWash; ...

Ping


2 posted on 02/20/2005 8:49:18 PM PST by Land of the Irish (Tradidi quod et accepi)
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To: Land of the Irish
This is beyond absurd. True Catholic priests in China are being persecuted and martyred and our bishops do this.

They will have much to answer for.

3 posted on 02/20/2005 9:02:06 PM PST by murphE ("I ain't no physicist, but I know what matters." - Popeye)
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Catholic Information Network

Persecution and Confusion: the Catholic Church in China

by Joseph M. C. Kung

Since the Communists took over China in 1949, tens of thousands of religious believers have been persecuted. Those who retain their Roman Catholic faith, who remain in communion with the Holy Father and the Universal Church and who refuse to join the government-sponsored Patriotic Association, are forced to go underground. About fifty underground bishops are taking care of ninety dioceses and eight million souls. They have practically no financial support from the free world, no churches and no weekly collections. Most priests must work as factory or farm workers and live below the poverty level to carry out their ministries. The Mass, prayer services and even praying over the dying are considered subversive activities because they are done without the government’s permission and are punishable by exorbitant fines, detention, house arrest, and sentences to jail or labor camps.

Failing to stamp out the Catholic Church, the Chinese government created its own church, called the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association, in 1957. The short-term objective of the Patriotic Association is to replace the Roman Catholic Church and implement a government-controlled church. Its long-term goal is to eliminate religion entirely in order to achieve a purely materialistic, autocratic society. However, the Patriotic Association did not factor in the power of the Holy Spirit and the blood of the martyrs, which is the seed of the Church. Instead of being destroyed, the population of the underground Catholic Church increased from about three million in the early 1950s to more than eight million today. In his 3 December 1996 speech, the Holy Father proudly referred to the underground church as "a precious jewel of the Catholic Church."

Examples of Recent Persecution

lThe apartments of Bishop Joseph Fan Zhongliang, S.J., the Coadjutor Bishop of the underground and faithful Roman Catholic Diocese of Shanghai, and Father Zen Caijun, S.J., a diocesan priest in Shanghai, were ransacked at the same time that U.S. Vice President Al Gore and House Speaker Newt Gingrich visited China this spring to discuss human rights with the Chinese government. Many religious articles, some cash and personal items were confiscated; no reasons were ever given and no warrant or receipt was issued at the time.

lA Chinese Communist Party document detailing a plan to eradicate the underground Catholic Church was recently discovered. The plan was to be implemented from 25 November 1996 through 31 March 1997. It included registering and setting up a file for each underground Catholic, blockading the exit of every village on Christmas day (to guarantee that no one leave to attend prayer meetings), forcing believers to write letters renouncing their Catholic faith and forcing them to join the Patriotic Association.

lBishop Thomas Zen Jingmu, 75, was sentenced to three years in a labor camp for celebrating a Roman Catholic Mass without government permission.

lFive thousand soldiers with armored cars and helicopters sealed off the tiny village of Dong Lu in Hebei where a national Marian shrine is located. The soldiers destroyed the shrine, confiscated the statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and arrested two bishops, many priests and laity. Bishop Su Zhimin, bishop of Baoding where Dong Lu is located, has been missing for about seventeen months. Auxiliary Bishop An Shuxin and pastor Rev. Cui Xingang have been in jail since March 1996.

The Patriotic Association

As soon as the Patriotic Association was established in 1957, all the properties of the Roman Catholic Church were confiscated. In the 1980s, as China opened its doors to the West, many of the churches and other properties were given to the Patriotic Association. Many American Catholics have been in China and in the cathedrals in Shanghai and Beijing. However, they may not have realized that they were not in Roman Catholic churches, but in churches belonging to the Patriotic Association that only looked Roman Catholic. The vestments are the same, as are most of the prayers and the hymns.

The most important article in the constitution of the Patriotic Association is its autonomy from the Pope. The Patriotic Association does not recognize the supreme administrative, legislative and judicial authority of the Pope. Communion with the Pope is a basic Catholic doctrine that must be upheld, and is not just a discipline. Since the Patriotic Association is not in communion with the Pope and does not believe in the infallibility of the Pope, it is not a part of the Roman Catholic Church.

In addition, some of the teachings of the Patriotic Association directly contradict some of the teachings of the Catholic Church. For example, in their pastoral letter on the dignity and responsibility of women, the bishops of the Patriotic Association openly advised women to implement "China’s platform for the development of women," which includes birth control, sterilization and the one-child policy that forces women to have abortions.

The bishops of the Patriotic Association are not appointed by the Holy See but by the Chinese government, and are consecrated without the approval of the Holy See. The oath taken by the Patriotic Association bishops at their consecration includes a clause to support a Chinese Catholic Church autonomous from the Holy See. According to Canon Law section 1382, it appears that all Patriotic Association bishops are automatically or ipso facto excommunicated by this action, with or without any public announcements from the Holy See.

The China Catholic Bishops’ College

In an attempt to cover its political agenda and to make it appear more like a Church, the Patriotic Association established the Chinese Bishop’s Conference in 1980. When the Patriotic Association bishops traveled outside China, they had to identify themselves as bishops from the Patriotic Association. This had an undesirable effect. So in 1992 the Chinese Bishop’s Conference changed its name to the China Catholic Bishops’ College. Patriotic Association members now introduce themselves as Catholic priests or bishops without disclosing that they are in fact with the Patriotic Association and have no ties with the Vatican.

This deceptive change in terminology produced predictable results. Since then numerous stories have appeared in the media, including Catholic magazines, about the "Catholic Church in China." These stories were, in fact, describing the Patriotic Association’s church. Numerous tours have been organized by Roman Catholic institutions, such as China Bureau, to visit the churches and seminaries of the "Catholic Church," but they toured the Patriotic Association facilities. Many conferences have been sponsored by Roman Catholic institutions ostensibly for the "Catholic Church in China," but are for the Patriotic Association’s church. Meanwhile, the persecutions of the loyal underground Catholic Church by the Chinese government continue, while the world remains deceived about the state of religious freedom in China.

In the meantime, Patriotic Association priests and bishops, masquerading as bona fide Roman Catholic clerics, have traveled around the world soliciting donations. According to some sources, misinformed but well-meaning Catholic institutions have donated millions of dollars to the Patriotic Association.

To add insult to injury, many of those trips to the U.S. by the Patriotic Assocation’s personnel are funded by the U.S. government.

It is very sad to note that many missionaries, such as the Maryknolls, have gone to China and cooperated with the Chinese government or the Patriotic Association for various projects while ignoring the underground Catholic Church. Section 678 of Canon Law states that all religious organizations working in a diocese must receive approval from the Ordinary, or bishop, in charge of the diocese. No permission was obtained from the underground Ordinary, the rightful authority in the Diocese, for much of this missionary work. These missionaries have obviously bypassed this requirement of Canon Law, knowingly or not.

Catholics must be wary of requests from organizations for donations to support projects for the "Chinese Catholic Church" and must determine whether these projects are for the Patriotic Association’s church or the loyal underground Catholic Church.

There are approximately fifty Patriotic Association seminarians and priests studying in various Roman Catholic seminaries in the United States. This "study" program is organized by the Maryknolls for the Patriotic Association. These students are given full tuition and room and board scholarships from various dioceses. Since these dioceses are supported by the donations of their parishoners, devout Catholics are unwittingly supporting these Patriotic Association seminarians and priests. Upon completion of their studies, the Patriotic Association seminarians will return to China (some have already) to be ordained by Patriotic Association bishops and will serve in dioceses not in communion with the Holy Father.

During the past thirty months, some dioceses granted faculties to Patriotic Association priests studying in the U.S., allowing them to offer Holy Mass and administer other sacraments in public. Many Catholics receiving these sacraments from Patriotic Assocation priests are unaware that these priests are not in communion with the Roman Pontiff.

China continues its oppressive religious policies not only because many church leaders sent wrong and misleading signals, but also because most governments in the free world are not serious about their demands for human rights improvements in China. In the meantime, the current policy of the U.S. government to distance human rights from trade sends a clear and immoral message to China that the U.S. will tolerate human rights abuses for the sake of profit.

All of the above-mentioned examples of cooperation are extended to the Patriotic Association and the Chinese government while the persecution of Christians continues. It is no wonder that there is no incentive for the Chinese government to stop its repressive religious policy and the persecution continues unabated.

Many will claim that the above events are being carried out in the furtherance of ‘‘reconciliation.’’ In his speech broadcast to China from Manila 14 January 1995, the Pope said, ‘‘genuine love cannot be separated from truth.’’ Reconciliation cannot be done by compromising the faith. Neither can it be done by forsaking the true Church.

What We Can Do

There are many things we can do to help our brothers and sisters in China:

lPray for the underground Church and for our separated brothers and sisters in the Patriotic Association so that we may be one flock with one Shepherd in Christ.

lPersuade the National Conference of Catholic Bishops (NCCB) to establish a special commission to monitor the persecutions in China and worldwide. In addition, get the NCCB to take a stand on religious persecution in China and on the Patriotic Association, and formulate a plan to raise awareness in all parishes across the U.S.

lTo raise awareness in parishes, include prayers to stop religious persecution worldwide in the general intercessions at Mass and put slogans such as "We are in solidarity with the persecuted Church" in parish bulletins.

lInform elected politicians about the religious persecution in China, and ask them to consider this when formulating U.S. foreign policy in China.

lAsk local newspapers to monitor and report on the persecution as well as editorialize on this issue. Media coverage is crucial. Timely and continuous reporting of these atrocities in the free world is extremely important and puts the Chinese government on notice.

lStockholders should find out if companies in which they invest are doing business in China. If so, they should introduce a resolution to establish a standard for tolerance of human rights violations there. Once China’s human rights violations exceed this standard, the company should automatically reduce or withdraw its business with China. These kinds of resolution are already being introduced: Boeing is facing a demand by a group of stockholders to adopt human rights standards for its operations in China, and similar resolutions have been presented to Motorola and Allied Signal.

lFinally, support The Cardinal Kung Foundation, which is here to tell the world about the plight of the underground Roman Catholic Church in China and to assist its bishops, priests, other religious and faithful. The Foundation may be the only organization working directly with the Roman Catholic bishops in China and is in need of funding. The Foundation works closely with all major human rights organizations and is the source of almost all the published reports on the persecution of the Roman Catholic Church in China.

Joseph M. C. Kung is the president of The Cardinal Kung Foundation.

Copyright HLI


4 posted on 02/20/2005 9:16:29 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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**The bishops of the Patriotic Association are not appointed by the Holy See but by the Chinese government, and are consecrated without the approval of the Holy See. The oath taken by the Patriotic Association bishops at their consecration includes a clause to support a Chinese Catholic Church autonomous from the Holy See.**

The telling words.


5 posted on 02/20/2005 9:18:30 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: thor76

Hey your 'pal' Cardinal Egan is at it again. sigh

BTTT


6 posted on 02/20/2005 10:42:40 PM PST by murphE ("I ain't no physicist, but I know what matters." - Popeye)
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To: Land of the Irish

For those who wish to remain Roman Catholic -

http://www.sspx.org/chapels.htm


7 posted on 02/21/2005 12:07:33 AM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Salvation
Why do you suppose the defender of the faith, the pope and his band of bishops, have for years refused to defrock these demon commie heretics, and have instead opened the doors of the Vatican and Churches in America in a public embrace of evil?
8 posted on 02/21/2005 3:10:37 AM PST by Robert Drobot (God, family, country. All else is meaningless.)
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To: Robert Drobot

Liberals are very much into the concept of "national" churches, hence the proliferation of bishops' conferences, etc. over the last few decades. I guess the Pope favors it, too.


9 posted on 02/21/2005 3:45:31 AM PST by livius
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To: Land of the Irish
This is almost unbelievable - at a time where a priest who decides to return to the traditional Mass is denied his priestly faculties, we have the blatantly schismatic and communist PA priests given those same powers. In a similar fashion, the SSPX continued under the condemnation of the excommunications, the local Church welcomes in this foreigners.

Oremus...

10 posted on 02/21/2005 5:00:01 AM PST by davidj
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To: Land of the Irish

It figures.


11 posted on 02/21/2005 5:22:47 AM PST by ultima ratio
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To: Land of the Irish
Land of the Irish, thanks for joining with me in bringing this Chinese communist abomination to the attention of the American faithful through FR. As often as possible, we need to give attention to the black hearts of American Roman Catholics who sit with Satan.

American bishops dare call themselves Roman Catholic and Shepard of the faithful, while they:

Knowingly permit heretics to hear the confessions, and falsely give absolution;

Pretend to offer Holy Mass;

Pretend to change water and wine into the body and blood of Our Savior; and

Falsely present counterfeit heretics - who do not recognize the pope or the Holy See - to walk among the spiritually innocent as ordained priests.

All thanks to the deceitful and shameless nature of corrupted and unholy American bishops.

IMO the faithful Roman Catholics in China revere Sacred Dogma and Traditions, and this alone is the sub-Rosa reason black hearted American bishops are eagerly taking part in this spiritual scam. Again, IMO the black hearts in the Vatican are waging a world war against vestige of true Roman Catholicism.

Evil is as evil does. May they seek His forgiveness, and heal the wounds they have inflected upon His Church, before they die. Contrarily, may the God Lord swiftly bring their corrupted souls before Him, and cast them into the fires of eternal damnation.

St. Casimir of Poland, I pray you will intercede with our Heavenly Father on behalf of all the oppressed peoples of China; beaten, tortured, and murdered by the greatest enemy of His Holy Church. I plea for you to strengthen the will of the Holy See to assist in protecting those in China loyal to Him and His Vicar on Earth. Bring attention to the unrelenting devotion our Chinese brothers and sisters are witnessing in His Name - who refuse to deny Him as their One True God.

I pray Saint Casimir for the hundreds of Chinese Catholics who have over the past sixty years chose death rather than bow to communism - murdered rather than deny their faith.

I especially pray for the soul of Bishop Gao Kexian, who was declared dead on January 24 2005 after spending the last five years in a Chinese communist prison. He was cremated the following day in the presence of the police. No relative or faithful were allowed to attend the cremation, nor was the Bishop allowed any religious comforts. His body was not blessed as well.

Our Chinese brothers and sisters in Christ are suffering the extremes of human torment, St. Casimir. Give them the strength of their beliefs to resist all forms of attempts to have them deny He who died for the many of us. I ask this in the name of Jesus Our Lord, amen.

Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us.
Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us.
Saint Pius X, pray for us.
Saint Padre Pio, pray for us.
Sister Maria Lucia of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart, pray for us.

12 posted on 02/21/2005 6:36:48 AM PST by Robert Drobot (God, family, country. All else is meaningless.)
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah

I use to bad muth the SSPX and tolerate the abuses going on in my parishm, but after a certain priest came and compared his looks to Pee-Wee Herman and asked if anyone in the church doesn't believe in God, I had it.

I've been going to the local SSPX chapel, which will be dedicated in April by Bishop Williamson. No bad mouthing of the Pope or the post-conciliar Church as people warned me at the church. Instead, solid, dogmatic Catholicism. And get this - respect in the santuary! Something unheard of where I live. I only wished I would have arrived there earlier.


13 posted on 02/21/2005 11:26:46 AM PST by PRSOrlando
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To: murphE; Robert Drobot; vox_freedom; Canticle_of_Deborah; AskStPhilomena; Land of the Irish; ...

OK.....here is all the dirt you will want to know....and a few things which you dont. Yes, Egan is in it up to his eyeballs...but so was O'Connor.

St. Joseph's in "Chinatown" is actually an Italian national parish, in the famous (infamous) "Five Points" section just north of City Hall...quite walkable. Chinatown has been expanding by leaps and bounds into this area and Little Italy (which is really little today!).

So.......there you have it. All thanks to his Most August Emptyness, Edward "Cardinal" Egan.

Chinese Commie priests in the Arch of NY? Yes. For nearly 15 years now. They have been taking courses at St. Joseph's seminary! They have been "in residence" at certain parishes over this time period where they have said mass, heard confessions, preached, etc. And.....of course been fed and housed at parishioner expense. Do they have faculties in the Archdiocese of NY? Seemingly...yes. Have they also been ordained in the Archdiocese? Maybe? How many of them? I lost track.

We also have "American Commie priests" as well. They are called the Marynoll Fathers. Anyone familiar with the order & the Marynoll school of theology (sic) will know whereof I speak. The pastor of The neighboring parish to St. Joseph is pastored by an American Caucasian Marynoll priest...Transfiguration, on Mott street.


14 posted on 02/21/2005 1:50:35 PM PST by thor76 (Vade retro, Draco! Crux sacra sit mihi lux !)
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To: PRSOrlando

I'm very happy for you! :-)


15 posted on 02/21/2005 1:52:31 PM PST by murphE ("I ain't no physicist, but I know what matters." - Popeye)
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To: thor76

Don't forget the Church of the Transfiguration, the oldest Chinese parish in New York.


16 posted on 02/21/2005 1:54:32 PM PST by Clemenza (Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms: The Other Holy Trinity)
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah

... speaking of ordinations which have not been approved of by Rome, that's a funny thing to say.


17 posted on 02/21/2005 1:56:03 PM PST by dangus
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To: Robert Drobot

They are not recignized as being Catholic priests, their orders have been declared invalid, and bishops have been instructed NOT to permit them to offer mass. IOW, they have never been "frocked." What more can be done to "defrock" them?

Cardinal Eagen is to blame, not Rome.


18 posted on 02/21/2005 1:59:20 PM PST by dangus
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To: thor76

Wait a second... They are being ordained by AMERICAN bishops? Umm, doesn't that make their ordination, although unwise and probably impious, 100% valid?

The article is about a priest who was ordained by a pretender bishop. (Shall I coin the term, anti-bishop?) That is an horrific offense against the faith of the poor congregants. Add to that the lies to make them appear legitimate, and the crime, if true as alleged, is unspeakably demonic. But you are talking about something far less grave.


19 posted on 02/21/2005 2:04:12 PM PST by dangus
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To: dangus
Cardinal Eagen is to blame, not Rome.

Cardinal Egan still holds office and is in "full communion with Rome".

The buck stops in Rome.

20 posted on 02/21/2005 2:13:07 PM PST by Land of the Irish (Tradidi quod et accepi)
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To: dangus

Unfortunately I have not at my fingertips names, numbers, nor embarrassing photos.

For a a man to be validly ordained a priest, he must affirm his beliefs in all of the truths of the Catholic faith (including the powers and priviledges of the papacy), must swear to teach them, and to be bound by the authority of the legitimate heirarchy of the church.

So if your Chinese "priest" does not believe in or intend to teach all of the truths of the faith, and does not hold any belief in the authority of Peter, nor intend to be subject to him, and to a valid and licit Bishop......he cannot be a priest, because he is lying to God.

So, he is as much a real priest as a practicing homosexual. Both have sought ordination under false pretenses.


21 posted on 02/21/2005 2:16:21 PM PST by thor76 (Vade retro, Draco! Crux sacra sit mihi lux !)
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To: dangus

What's even funnier, Rome is looking to SSPX to safeguard the Faith.

Bishop Fellay went on to say that an archbishop in the curia had told him, "Don't make an agreement with Rome now. The time is not right. The Pope is no longer governing the Church. We need you to stay where you are and to stand firm in defense of the Faith."
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1284342/posts


22 posted on 02/21/2005 2:20:21 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: thor76; Land of the Irish; Gerard.P

Does the Chinese communist church have any valid lineage? Maybe they are coming to American dioceses for that reason?


23 posted on 02/21/2005 2:22:41 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah

Maybe? Not really sure. The hierarchy of the Chinese church has been a mess since Mao took over in 1948. Whatever legitimate Bishops there were then are now dead. Perhpas they consecrated other bishops in secret.......but I do not have this information.

But you may well be on to something. If the "Commie" church has no valid lineage, they may be seeking it here. BUT.....I think this stems from Cardinal Etchegary (sp?)and his overtures to the Chinese Patriotic Church in the 80s. I think it was this Cardinal - but correct me if I hae the name wrong.

And he is well known as having pink shoes.....get my drift?


24 posted on 02/21/2005 2:31:11 PM PST by thor76 (Vade retro, Draco! Crux sacra sit mihi lux !)
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To: Land of the Irish

>> Cardinal Egan still holds office and is in "full communion with Rome". <<

Is this really the issue you want to from the Great American Schism over, when Egan will hit 75 in just over two years? Given the choice between waiting two years until the heretic can be removed by normal means, or kicking him out of "full communion," I'm sure the Vatican will always wait two years. If he turns 76 and he's still in office, I'll concede you have a point.


25 posted on 02/21/2005 2:48:30 PM PST by dangus
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To: thor76

As you put it, he must "affirm" his beliefs. Given that he does that, his ordination is valid. Now, if the Bishop who ordains him intends to put him under the authority of a bishop who is out of communion with Rome, there is your illicit act. But I can't imagine why the Chinese would send him to America to be educated, and then take him back to China to serve one of their bishops. It'd seem much safer to educate him themselves.


26 posted on 02/21/2005 2:52:18 PM PST by dangus
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To: dangus

Ummmmm.....no. I have been through this already. If a man lies about his beliefs and intentions in ordination, he is not ordained, as he seesk the sarcrament insincerely. Sorry! God is not mocked.

"It'd seem much safer to educate him themselves."

Let me assure you that he wil be "safely" educated in St, Joseph's seminary. Have no fear of that.

Let he who has ears hear.


27 posted on 02/21/2005 2:57:58 PM PST by thor76 (Vade retro, Draco! Crux sacra sit mihi lux !)
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah; AAABEST; Land of the Irish; thor76; JesseHousman; MarineMomJ; ultima ratio; ...
You might satisfy your awareness of the official communist catholic church as well as the underground Roman Catholic Church in China by visiting and reviewing the content of Cardinal Kung Foundation website. Further, if you are so inclined, you may wish to consider a subscription to The Voice of the Martyrs. A link to the magazine can be found on the cover page of PERSECUTION.com

It isn't commonly known that Cardinal Kung's remains are interrèd adjacent to the Mission Santa Clara on the grounds of Santa Clara University, Santa Clara, California ( for those of you who live in the nine county San Francisco Bay Area ).

thor76, before the rumor on this thread goes any further, know that the heretic priests in the US from China have already been 'ordained' by the party's commie bishops. IMO, they are more likely doing their theological doctorial studies here and assisting local area churches in exchange for their room and board.

There is no information on the net about American bishops ordaining heretic priests. Nor for that matter is there any information about underground Roman Catholic holy priests having freedom of movement in Rome or the United States, because they can't get out of the prisons in China.

28 posted on 02/21/2005 7:29:21 PM PST by Robert Drobot (God, family, country. All else is meaningless.)
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Comment #29 Removed by Moderator

To: Canticle_of_Deborah; AAABEST; Land of the Irish; JesseHousman; MarineMomJ; thor76; ultima ratio; ...
.....or remaining underground to avoid capture....
30 posted on 02/21/2005 7:33:47 PM PST by Robert Drobot (God, family, country. All else is meaningless.)
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To: davidj

Not only this--but the CPA publicly endorses the Chinese government's policy of enforced abortions and has written into its constitution a rejection of union with the papacy. In addition it has unlawfully usurped jurisdictions from officially appointed bishops.


31 posted on 02/21/2005 8:27:17 PM PST by ultima ratio
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To: PRSOrlando; Canticle_of_Deborah
I use to bad muth the SSPX and tolerate the abuses going on in my parishm, but after a certain priest came and compared his looks to Pee-Wee Herman and asked if anyone in the church doesn't believe in God, I had it.

I've been going to the local SSPX chapel, which will be dedicated in April by Bishop Williamson. No bad mouthing of the Pope or the post-conciliar Church as people warned me at the church. Instead, solid, dogmatic Catholicism. And get this - respect in the santuary! Something unheard of where I live. I only wished I would have arrived there earlier.

My own history is very similar. I always used to avoid SSPX chapels at all costs, travelling great distances to Indult Masses, or (very) reluctantly, attending the best Novus Disordo we could find. My wife and family then moved to get near an approved community, supplied by a FSSP-affiliated priest. However, the FSSP let us down badly by trying to move the priest abroad (who subsequently left the FSSP), so the whole arrangement collapsed (it was about 30 miles away, and there is now a Mass in their local Oratory). We have now effectively thrown the towel in, and attend the SSPX school chapel just 7 or 8 miles away, the other side of town.

Expecting Pope-bashing on a regular basis, we've heard nothing of the sort - just good solid sermons, reverent Masses, and a congregation half-full of children. Reading some of their material has made us much more comfortable (e.g. Bishop Fellay's recent talk last Nov). Even if an Indult did start up locally, we would find the SSPX chapel much more reliable and dependable going into the future as a family.

As for my own bad-mouthing of the SSPX in the past, I repent! Well, the SSPX isn't perfect, but at least it realises there is a crisis going on, and is doing something about it.

32 posted on 02/22/2005 4:41:48 AM PST by davidj
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To: davidj

God bless you for recognizing and acting to meet your spiritual obligation to yourself, and your family members.


33 posted on 02/22/2005 12:52:45 PM PST by Robert Drobot (God, family, country. All else is meaningless.)
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To: Land of the Irish

Bumpus ad summum


34 posted on 02/23/2005 9:17:55 PM PST by Dajjal
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