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Sifting the Wheat from the Tares: 20 Signs of Trouble in a New Religious Group
CatholicExchange.com ^ | 03-01-05 | Pete Vere, JCL

Posted on 02/28/2005 10:18:56 PM PST by Salvation

by Pete Vere, JCL

Other Articles by Pete Vere, JCL
Sifting the Wheat from the Tares: 20 Signs of Trouble in a New Religious Group
03/01/05


Since the closing of the Second Vatican Council, a number of new groups have arisen within the Church. Whereas many new groups start off on the right foot and maintain solid footing, others fall by the wayside. This may be due to poor doctrine or questionable practices.

In This Article...
Red Flags and Warning Signs
Fr. Morrisey’s 15 Warning Signs
Five Additional Warning Signs from the International Cultic Studies Association

Red Flags and Warning Signs

As a canon lawyer, I am often asked what the Church looks for when assessing new groups forming within the Church. While the following is by no means exhaustive, it presents a pretty good list of red flags and warning signs that would give any canonist pause when examining a new association.

Fr. Francis G. Morrisey, OMI is well-known to every student of religious law. As a lifelong member of the Oblates of Mary Immaculate, Fr. Morrisey possesses much experience living in religious community. He is also a professor of canon law at Saint Paul University and a former consultor to the Congregation for Religious — the curial dicastery in Rome that oversees various forms of consecrated life within the Church. This has given him much experience examining and assessing numerous religious orders and new groups within the Church.

Several years ago, Fr. Morrisey proposed 15 criteria, or warning signs, when evaluating new associations within the Church. While these warning signs are not law per se — that is, law in the sense of legislation — most canonists accept these criteria as a solid guide when examining and assessing new associations within the Church. For those with access to a good ecclesiastical library, Fr. Morrisey presents and explains these fifteen criteria in his article “Canonical Associations...” published in Informationes, vol. 26, (2000), pp 88-109.

For those without access to an ecclesiastical library, or for those looking for an explanation more accessible to the average layperson, here are Fr. Morrisey’s 15 criteria along with my personal explanation of what they mean:

Fr. Morrisey’s 15 Warning Signs

1. “Total” obedience to the pope

Many will find this first warning sign surprising. As Catholics, are we not all called to obey the Holy Father? Indeed, we are. When a new association sincerely seeks to obey and follow the teachings of the Holy Father, canonists are for the most part satisfied the group is doing what Catholic groups ought to do.

Nevertheless, some new associations abuse Catholic sensibility in this regard. These groups cite “total obedience to the Holy Father” when what they really mean is partial obedience to selected teachings of the Holy Father, without embracing the entire papal message. Additionally, when challenged over their partial obedience, these groups will appeal to their “total” reliance upon the Holy Father in an attempt to bypass the authority of the diocesan bishop. This brings us to Fr. Morrisey’s second warning sign.

2. No sense of belonging to the local church

As Catholics, we belong to the universal Church. Yet we also belong to the local church community, meaning a local parish and a local diocese. Even the Holy Father is not exempt in this regard; he is, after all, the Bishop of Rome and thus belongs to local Roman Church. Thus the ministry and apostolate of any association should focus on the local church. If a new association or religious order has no sense of belonging to the local church, then this becomes cause for concern.

3. Lack of true cooperation with diocesan authorities

To belong to the local church, one must cooperate with local diocesan authorities. After all, Christ instituted His Church as a hierarchy. Within this hierarchy, our Lord instituted the office of bishop to oversee a portion of Christ’s faithful. Thus the local bishop, and not a particular religious group or association, bears ultimate responsibility for the care of souls within a particular geographical location. If a new association refuses or impedes cooperation between itself and the local diocesan authorities, then its fidelity to the Church is questionable.

4. Making use of lies and falsehoods to obtain approval

As Catholics, we concern ourselves with speaking the truth. After all, our Lord denounces Satan as the “Father of Lies.” So any new association should be truthful in how it presents itself to its members, Church authorities, and the outside world. This is not just a matter of basic honesty; any group or association that resorts to falsehoods to gain approval is likely concealing a deeper problem.

The Church understands that every association, particularly when the association is new, makes mistakes when engaging in ministry or apostolate. When an association is honest, however, these problems are easily identified and quickly corrected. This in turn increases the likelihood of the new association succeeding within the Church.

5. Too soon an insistence on placing all goods in common

While the Church has a history of associations and religious orders in which members place all their goods in common, the decision to do so should come after a reasonable period of careful discernment. Placing one’s goods in common in not for everyone, and the consequences of such a decision are lifelong. Additionally, the potential for abuse by those who administer the common goods is great. Therefore, canonists frown upon any insistence by an association that its new or potential members place their goods in common.

Due to the fact that modern times see less stability in common life, with members sometimes opting to leave after a number of years, the most prudent handling of goods in common is to place them in trust until a member dies. That way, if the member leaves, the goods are available to meet his or her needs outside of the community.

6. Claiming special revelations or messages leading to the founding of the group

Although this represents a warning sign, it is not absolute. The Church recognizes the presence of many legitimate apparitions and private revelations throughout her history. Yet not all alleged apparitions or special revelations turn out to be true. Therefore, the Church must further investigate any claims of special revelations or messages — particularly when they become the catalyst for founding a new association. If, however, a new association refuses to divulge or submit its alleged revelations or special messages to the Church, then this immediately calls into question the authenticity of both the association and the alleged apparition.

7. Special status of the founder, or foundress

Of course, the founder or foundress will always enjoy a special role in the founding of a new association or community. Nevertheless, in all other respects he or she should be a member just like everyone else. This means that he or she is similarly bound to the customs, disciplines and constitutions of the community. If the founder or foundress demands special meals, special living quarters, special dispensations from the rules imposed upon other members of the community, or any other special treatment, then this is a clear warning sign. It is of special concern if the founder or foundress claims exemption from the requirements of Christian morality due to his or her status (see point 15 below).

8. Special and severe penances imposed

As St. Thomas Aquinas teaches, virtue is found in the middle, between two extremes. Therefore, any penances imposed upon members of the community should be both moderate and reasonable. Special and severe penances are not signs of virtue — rather, they are signs of extremism.

9. Multiplicity of devotions, without any doctrinal unity among them

The purpose of sacramentals and other devotions is to bring us closer to Christ and the sacraments. Hence sacramentals are not superstitions. A new association or community should insure that any special devotions or sacramentals unite its members to Christ, the sacraments and the mission of the association. For example, praying three Hail Marys in front of the statue of St. Joseph while the Blessed Sacrament is exposed does not offer such unity. Eucharistic Adoration, Marian devotion and devotion to St. Joseph are all good in themselves, however, they should be offered either individually or collectively as devotion to the Holy Family. They should not be offered simultaneously.

10. Promotion of “fringe” elements in the life of the Church

As previously mentioned, every association or organization within the Church should exist to serve the needs of Christ’s faithful. Therefore, canonists view any association that exists solely to serve fringe elements — whether these elements be special apparitions, private revelations, or extreme social or political agendas, etc. — with suspicion.

This is not to deny that extraordinary events may sometimes become the catalyst for a new association or religious order. For example, St. Francis of Assisi founded the Franciscans after receiving a locution from our Lord to “Rebuild My Church.” Nevertheless, St. Francis did not found the Franciscans with the intention of promoting his internal locution. Rather, the internal locution inspired St. Francis to found an order that would serve the Church.

11. Special vows

Within the Church, one finds the three traditional vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. Additional or special vows present numerous problems. Often, special vows are reduced to means through which superiors unduly control members of the community or association. The danger is particularly pointed where a special vow cannot be externally verified. Take “joy” for example; one can usually appeal to objective evidence that someone is not living a life of poverty, chastity and/or obedience, but as a feeling, “joy” is too subjective to be judged in an objective manner.

12. Absolute secrecy imposed on members

While some discretion and privacy is necessary within any Church community or association, secrecy should never be absolute unless one is a confessor preserving the seal of confession. Therefore, any association or organization that imposes absolute secrecy upon its members should be approached with the utmost caution. Members should always be free to approach diocesan officials and the Holy See if certain problems arise within the community that are not dealt with in an adequate fashion. Similarly, since these associations exist to serve the Church, all members should be allowed to converse freely and honestly with members of the Church hierarchy when requested.

13. Control over the choice of confessors and spiritual directors

Confession and spiritual direction concern the internal forum — that is, those things that are private to a person’s conscience. Within reasonable limits, a person should be free to choose his or her confessor and spiritual director. On the other hand, obedience to one’s superiors in carrying out an association’s apostolate or ministry concerns the external forum. In other words, the latter are public actions that can be externally verified.

The roles of confessor and spiritual director should never be confused with the role of superior. Nor should there even be the appearance of confusion. Of particular concern to canonists is when a superior imposes himself as confessor and/or spiritual director of a member under his charge. After all, a superior will have to make decisions about a member’s future — and in so doing there exists a strong temptation to make use of information gathered under the seal of confession.

14. Serious discontent with the previous institute of which certain members were part

Like some of the other red flags presented, this warning sign is not absolute. Sometimes, a very good reason exists for a member’s discontent with his or her previous institute. Nevertheless, serious discontent with a previous institute should be carefully examined. In most cases, such discontent points to some deeper problems with the individual, particularly if he or she has a history of “conflict of personalities.”

15. Any form of sexual misconduct as a basis

This warning sign is fairly self-explanatory. The Church’s teaching is clear when it comes to sexual morality. If sexual immorality is the basis for a new group or association, then the association ought to be avoided. Additionally, one should immediately report this to the competent Church authority.

Five Additional Warning Signs from the International Cultic Studies Association

In addition to the fifteen warning signs presented by Fr. Morrisey, Dr. Michael Langone has assembled a list of thirteen criteria by which many cult experts judge a group to be a cult. Dr. Langone is a counseling psychologist and the Executive Director of the
International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA). He has spent nearly 30 years researching and writing about cults, and for 20 years has been the editor of the Cultic Studies Journal. The following five criteria have been adapted from Dr. Langone’s thirteen criteria and applied to the context of Catholic associations. Some canon lawyers find them useful when evaluating the legitimacy of a new association within the Church.

1. The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members

Of course every new association, if it wishes to grow, will seek to increase its membership. Such growth, however, should come because potential members identify with the mission or apostolate of the association. Additionally, members should only join after a reasonable period of discernment. Thus any association whose main focus is to bring in new members, to the exclusion of other acts of apostolate or ministry, should be carefully examined.

2. The group is preoccupied with making money

Like the previous criterion, there is nothing wrong per se with raising money for one’s association or apostolate. After all, even Christ and the Apostles used money. Nevertheless, money should be a means of carrying out legitimate ministry and apostolic work. Raising money should never be an end in itself. Additionally, the means employed in raising money should be honest and transparent.

3. Elitism

The Catholic Church recognizes that by virtue of their baptism, a certain equality exists among Christ’s faithful, regardless of whether one belongs to the lay, religious or clerical state. Additionally, among religious orders and newer forms of consecrated life, the Church recognizes different types of charisms. Some are active, in that they tend heavily toward active ministry and apostolic work. Others are contemplative, in that they tend more toward prayer and contemplation. Of course, you find everything in between. Therefore, any Church association that only recognizes vocations to its association is not thinking with the mind of the Church. Nor are those associations with a polarized mentality that divide their vocations from those of the rest of the Church.

4. The leadership induces feeling of guilt in members to control them

One’s vocation within the Church should be freely chosen. Similarly, obedience is something a superior should inspire among those under his or her charge. While it sometimes happens that a superior must impose his or her will upon a particular member, obedience should never be coerced through illicit or improper means. Additionally, if a superior must constantly impose his will upon the majority of the membership through coercive means, then this proves problematical to the long-term health of the specific association or religious group.

5. The group completely severs its members from the outside world

Granted, one must be careful here. After all, the Church has a long and honored tradition of cloistered and contemplative orders that sever themselves from the day-to-day activities of the outside world. Nevertheless, even those orders of the most strict observance encourage some forms of outside communication with friends, family and the world. Therefore, it is cause for concern when an association, particularly if the association is lay-based, encourages its members to completely sever ties with friends, family, and the outside world. Additionally, one should beware those associations that encourage or require their members to live and/or socialize only with other members of the same group or association. One should also beware if association or friendships with people outside of the group are encouraged only when they are used to further the goals of the group.

Concluding Thoughts

Each new association within the Church has its own unique charism. Nevertheless, the goal of every new association should be to fulfill a particular need within the Church. An association becomes dangerous if allowed to place its own interests, or those of its founder and/or leader, before the common good of the Church — both local and universal.

If more than a couple of the above warning signs are found to be present while assessing a particular association, then Catholics ought to be wary about becoming involved with the group in question. Such an association is likely to encounter several difficulties with legitimate Church authorities and possibly even degenerate into a cult — a destructive group that does psychological harm and poses a spiritual danger to its members.

© Copyright 2005 Catholic Exchange


Pete Vere is a doctoral student with the Faculty of Canon Law at Saint Paul University. He recently co-authored
Surprised by Canon Law: 150 Questions Catholics Ask About Canon Law (Servant Books) with Michael Trueman and More Catholic Than the Pope (Our Sunday Visitor) with Patrick Madrid. He lives with his wife and two daughters in Ottawa, Canada.



TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Current Events; Eastern Religions; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History; Islam; Judaism; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Orthodox Christian; Other Christian; Other non-Christian; Prayer; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Religion & Science; Skeptics/Seekers; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: carmen; catholic; ccr; groups; kinko; legionairesofchrist; neocatechumenate; noncatholic; opusdei; regnumchristi; schismatics
For a spirited and informative discussion!
1 posted on 02/28/2005 10:18:56 PM PST by Salvation
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To: All
Excellent information on some of these groups at Our Lady's Warriors
2 posted on 02/28/2005 10:20:21 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: All

**some new associations abuse Catholic sensibility in this regard. These groups cite “total obedience to the Holy Father” when what they really mean is partial obedience to selected teachings of the Holy Father, without embracing the entire papal message.**

BTTT!


3 posted on 02/28/2005 10:26:00 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: nickcarraway; SMEDLEYBUTLER; Siobhan; Lady In Blue; attagirl; goldenstategirl; Starmaker; ...
Catholic Discussion Ping!

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Catholic Discussion Ping List.

4 posted on 02/28/2005 10:27:30 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Warning!

**If more than a couple of the above warning signs are found to be present while assessing a particular association, then Catholics ought to be wary about becoming involved with the group in question.**


5 posted on 02/28/2005 10:28:53 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

There have certainly been problems in the past with CCR in some areas. A situation where the Church stepped in was back in 1991 at Steubenville, Ohio. Many of the "signs" listed in the article were present.


6 posted on 03/01/2005 4:27:48 AM PST by Diva
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: Marcellinus

"Please tell me what CCR is."

I assume it means Catholic Charismatic Renewal - particularly as the Steubenville situation is mentioned.

I also find it hard to understand how the Neo-Catechumenate gets away with its activities after reading the above criteria!


8 posted on 03/01/2005 5:55:56 AM PST by Tantumergo
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To: Salvation

Regnum Christi. Regnum Christi. Regnum Christi.


9 posted on 03/01/2005 6:17:28 AM PST by Mershon
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To: Salvation

Very interesting and insightful list. Of course, there is a serious problem with the item on cooperating with diocesan authority when the bishop is routinely unjust, condescending vis-a-vis the laity, disingenuous and focused on self-promotion.


10 posted on 03/01/2005 7:29:35 AM PST by Savonarola
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To: Savonarola
In situations where the diocesan officials and the bishop himself are involved with or do nothing about corruption, irregular practices, heresy, and sexual abuse, to cooperate with the official diocese would be to participate in a non-Catholic or even an anti-Catholic cult. Sadly, this would apply to far too many places including certain Catholic colleges and universities. Since the Vatican seems content not to do anything about these situations, that tends to leave the faithful in a rather difficult position. One might want to describe this as a trial or even a chastisement. People are then tempted to link up with organizations or institutions which while claiming to be orthodox and fully Catholic may not be entirely sound or may have other problems.

Where you have a lot of enthusiastic converts with a lack of experience in Catholic culture and disgruntled Catholics fed up with the abuses in the official church, you can have tendencies toward extremes. Just because someone claims that their version of religiosity is orthodox and "faithful to the Holy Father" does not mean that other problems may not be present. Unbalanced people looking for power and tempted to engage in money-grubbing scams pop up in all sorts of places including the "faithful to the Holy Father" networks. The bishops and church leaders who have been content to let the liberal crazies take over official church institutions bear a lot of responsibility for the "cultic" situations. People need to stay informed and exercise common sense in evaluating each situation.

The lack of attention in this article to the very grave and serious abuses Catholics encounter in the "local church" and official diocesan institutions is a rather big omission. The editor needs to be sent back for retraining - hopefully by someone who is actually an attentive and sane Catholic.

We await the sequel - Ten Signs That Your Local Diocese May be a Cult.

#1: Too many restaurant-hopping golfers and part-time Florida residents on the local boards.

11 posted on 03/01/2005 8:19:22 AM PST by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: Mershon

**Regnum Christi.**

Please translate. Is this a group or an exclamation of praise? (Could be taken either way.


Christ.


12 posted on 03/01/2005 8:24:07 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Very good Very good"Salvation"Thank you :}}}}}


13 posted on 03/01/2005 8:24:55 AM PST by anonymoussierra (Lux Mea Christus!!!"Totus tuss" Quo Vadis Domine?Thank you)
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To: Salvation

This is a "movement" in the Church affiliated with the Legion of Christ. Many of the 15 points fit with their modus operandi.


14 posted on 03/01/2005 8:30:17 AM PST by Mershon
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To: Marcellinus; Tantumergo; Diva
CCR - Catholic Charismatic Renewal

I have never understood this. There are only seven sacraments. The style and terminology is derived from modern American Pentecostalism. "Renewal" is a vague and pretentious Protestant-sounding Vatican II buzzword. Supposedly, the modernism movement since Vatican II is a "renewal" of the whole church. ???

The priests I knew growing up who had been educated and ordained BEFORE Vatican II seemed better to me both in terms of their education and their spirituality. They were and we ALL were FULLY CATHOLIC without having to claim "charismatic renewal."

15 posted on 03/01/2005 8:31:37 AM PST by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: Salvation


Excellent resource....Thanks for the link!


16 posted on 03/01/2005 8:45:55 AM PST by dcnd9
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To: Salvation

Worth keeping in mind!


17 posted on 03/01/2005 8:56:58 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: Salvation

Opus Dei certainly fits some of these criteria, mostly the secrecy and elitism of the group. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a cult though - it does have papal approval. Nor does it engage in brainwashing or coercion; I stopped involvement with the group and did not experience any negative consequences and remained friends with some members as well.

However, if a bishop finds he has problems with such groups in his diocese, he might want to take a long look at himself first. "Extreme" groups like Opus Dei or various traditionalist schismatics do not pop up out of no where. They develop where there is a need for them. In particular, such groups thrive in dioceses that are liberal, that water down the faith, that allow liturgical abuses, and that act like any form of Catholic spirituality or devotion over 40 yrs old is worthless. In such places a vacuum is created and orthodox Catholics feel they have no where to go. Of course they will isolate themselves from the local church, if the local church ignores them while a group like Opus Dei welcomes them.

Case in point is Notre Dame. When I was a student there I was heavily involved with Opus Dei. the "official" campus ministry had zero appeal to me and most of the other orthodox students. It strived for the lowest common denominator. It offered us spiritual baby food when we wanted steak and potatoes. I once had a conversation with the priest who heads it and among other things he said it's fine for a Catholic to have an abortion if it's OK with her conscience. Needless to say, there was no concern for orthodoxy at the ND campus ministry.

So where could I go? Well I was invited to an Opus Dei meeting and everything just clicked. *This* is what I was looking for, this is what I needed. This was Catholic without apologies. My spiritual life flourished while I was with the group. Sadly the more dysfunctional aspects of Opus Dei eventually became too much and it no longer was fruitful for me to be involved. So I stopped. that was undoubtedly the right decision to make. Yet I was quite adrift, spiritually speaking, for a long time afterwards. I had no where else to go.


18 posted on 03/01/2005 9:03:40 AM PST by sassbox
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To: Mershon

**Legion of Christ**

I seem to remember a thread about that.


19 posted on 03/01/2005 9:46:59 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Mershon

Is this the Legionnaires of Christ? I used to contribute to them regularly, even when I was Anglican, because I thought they stood for solid orthodoxy and godliness. I heard from a number of different sources that the founder had engaged in inappropriate activities with boys and teenagers, and I stopped all contributions. They still send me regular mailings, always wanting money for some "need."

Besides my parish, I think my extra contributions will start going to EWTN and FSSP.


20 posted on 03/01/2005 9:48:09 AM PST by Convert from ECUSA (tired of all the shucking and jiving)
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To: Tantumergo
I also find it hard to understand how the Neo-Catechumenate gets away with its activities

They put butts in pews, and that lowest commen denominator of success is enough for a lot of desperate manager-bishops driven by process and statistics, ready to embrace any novelty so long as it claims a Catholic identity. The neo-cats' have a creepy emphasis on exclusivity and control.

21 posted on 03/01/2005 10:28:17 AM PST by Romulus (Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?)
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To: Salvation

I don't understand most of what is mentioned in this thread. I do remember hearing complimentary comments over the years about Steubenville since it's in this general geographic area (just over the border in Ohio).


22 posted on 03/01/2005 10:44:25 AM PST by Ciexyz (Let us always remember, the Lord is in control.)
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To: Romulus

"The neo-cats' have a creepy emphasis on exclusivity and control."

I also heard that at one of their jamborees in Rome, their founder - Kiko Arguello - derided the Real Presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament!!

But, as you say, if they give the image of numerical success then they receive official encouragement - even if its thousands of material heretics that they are turning out.


23 posted on 03/01/2005 11:37:55 AM PST by Tantumergo
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To: Salvation

Of course, if a Lay Catholic is looking for an organization to join, one can consider the Lay Carmelites. Been around for over 500 years - no "Spring Chickens" are we! :-)


24 posted on 03/01/2005 11:46:48 AM PST by COBOL2Java (If this isn't the End Times it certainly is a reasonable facsimile...)
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity

The priests I knew growing up who had been educated and ordained BEFORE Vatican II seemed better to me both in terms of their education and their spirituality.

&&

My experience, as well. Those days were great.


25 posted on 03/01/2005 2:00:51 PM PST by Bigg Red (Never again trust Democrats with national security!)
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To: Bigg Red
Take your pick at what explains the changes or...ahem..decline. Stronger families, better institutions, higher standards, different cultural and moral climate, or maybe just a more coherent basic understanding of Catholicism? Whatever theological position one wants to take on the various bureaucratic documents, the atmosphere after the council opened the doors for liberals and others to take advantage of a situation of widespread confusion. Add to that the counter-cultural changes in American society and there was a very potent formula for deconstructing the Catholic Church and the Catholic faith. We are still stuck in the impasse brought on by that. And paying heavily for it - in spades.
26 posted on 03/01/2005 2:22:09 PM PST by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: Tantumergo; Romulus

"I also heard that at one of their jamborees in Rome, their founder - Kiko Arguello - derided the Real Presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament!! "


http://www.christianorder.com/features/features_2000/features_feb00_1.html

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/catech.htm


27 posted on 03/01/2005 5:09:07 PM PST by Land of the Irish (Tradidi quod et accepi)
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To: Salvation; Siobhan

When St. Francis of Assisi was called to start his order I suspect he would have failed this criteria and it took a Papal dream to grease the wheel back then...and I also wonder how St. Dominic would have fared. The Church has problems as serious as those of that time period. I raised both eyebrows when the first red flag is given to total obedience to the Pope. Right off the bat that smacks of an agenda.

Esperanza, before the scandals erupted, said something about Jesus coming to shepherd His flock. At the time it felt soothing to read her words but now I read between them as He is clearly coming due to the failure of the appointed shepherds.


28 posted on 03/01/2005 5:16:47 PM PST by Domestic Church (AMDG.....recalling History Matters dream about the dirt being swept around Washington)
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To: Mershon

Regnum Christi through TORCH leadership has tried to control the Catholic Homeschooling movement.


29 posted on 03/01/2005 5:20:13 PM PST by Domestic Church (AMDG.....)
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To: Tantumergo

http://www.odyssey.on.ca/~paul.buis/frpius/neo.html

check it out!!


30 posted on 03/01/2005 6:17:43 PM PST by donbosco74 ("Men and devils make war on me in this great city." (Paris) --St. Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort)
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity

I can't add anything to your summary.

Where will it end, I wonder. Perhaps out of these trials the church will emerge stronger. One can only hope ... and pray ... that a true reformation is upon us.


31 posted on 03/01/2005 7:30:58 PM PST by Bigg Red (Never again trust Democrats with national security!)
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To: Domestic Church
I raised both eyebrows when the first red flag is given to total obedience to the Pope. Right off the bat that smacks of an agenda.

The total obedience was in quotation marks and carefully explained as partial obedience to select teachings. Given that the author is one of biggest defenders of the papacy within the traditionalist movement and often finds himself at odds with the rest of the traditionalist movement because of his outspoken loyalty to Rome, I doubt that he is setting the agenda you imply.

Rather, I suspect that this has something to do with his battles against false visionaries. In fact, he mentioned elsewhere that he was thinking of Mary Paul and her Army of Mary when he wrote point #1. If I recally correctly, this woman claimed to be the second Blessed Mother, and I think she may also have worn the Blessed Sacrament around her neck.

Regardless, she often hid behind "total obedience to the Holy Father" to keep her followers in line when local Church authorities began cracking down. Eventually, the Church would suppress her society and Cardinal Ratzinger and the CDF would condemn her theology.

Since then, the author has been asked to share his opinion concerning a number of other false visionaries who claimed "total obedience" to the Holy Father.
32 posted on 03/02/2005 1:24:36 AM PST by GratianGasparri
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To: Domestic Church
When St. Francis of Assisi was called to start his order I suspect he would have failed this criteria and it took a Papal dream to grease the wheel back then...and I also wonder how St. Dominic would have fared.

Each of these saints would have fared well, because each of these saints joyfully submitted when the Church tempered their zeal and focused them away from those warning signs that might be present.
33 posted on 03/02/2005 1:28:00 AM PST by GratianGasparri
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To: Ciexyz

I think there is a lot that is good at Steubenville. The Charismatic thing has been a problem at times. I don't think being a Charismatic has to be a problem but it can turn into one when you consider yourself extra special because you can speak in tongues and see visions. St. John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila warned not to seek these consolations because the opportunity for deception is great.


34 posted on 03/02/2005 3:24:46 AM PST by Diva
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To: Domestic Church

Yeah, lots of people have tried to control the homeschooling movement. : ) Haven't seen any succeed yet but, I'm intrigued by what you say. I know there was concern here in Michigan a few years ago that there were some trying to influence the diocese to clamp down on the Sacraments for homeschoolers. Could you tell me more about TORCH. I am familiar with Regnum Christi and have been concerned about some of their activities, or at least the way they "control" young women on pilgrimages.


35 posted on 03/02/2005 3:35:54 AM PST by Diva
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To: Tantumergo

On a good day, Kiko Argüello is a protestant.


36 posted on 03/02/2005 6:29:03 PM PST by Siobhan (Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us. Blessed Jacinta, pray for us. Blessed Francisco, pray for us.)
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To: Siobhan

Bit hard on protestants don't you think, Siobhan?

;)


37 posted on 03/03/2005 9:18:35 AM PST by Tantumergo
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