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Hail Mary
TIME ^ | Mar 14 05 | TIME

Posted on 03/13/2005 7:16:00 PM PST by churchillbuff

....In a shift whose ideological breadth is unusual in the fragmented Protestant world, a long-standing wall around Mary appears to be eroding. It is not that Protestants are converting to Catholicism's dramatic exaltation: the singing of Salve Regina, the Rosary's Marian Mysteries, the entreaty to her in the Hail Mary to "pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death." Rather, a growing number of Christian thinkers who are neither Catholic nor Eastern Orthodox (another branch of faith to which Mary is central) have concluded that their various traditions have shortchanged her in the very arena in which Protestantism most prides itself: the careful and full reading of Scripture.

Arguments on the Virgin's behalf have appeared in a flurry of scholarly essays and popular articles, on the covers of the usually conservative Christianity Today (headline: The Blessed Evangelical Mary) and the usually liberal Christian Century (St. Mary for protestants). They are being preached, if not yet in many churches then in a denominational cross section—and not just at modest addresses like Maguire's in Xenia but also from mighty pulpits like that at Chicago's Fourth Presbyterian Church, where longtime senior pastor John Buchanan recently delivered a major message on the Virgin ending with the words "Hail Mary ... Blessed are you among us all."

This could probably not have happened at some other time. Robert Jenson, author of the respected text Systematic Theology, chuckles when asked whether the pastor of his Lutheran youth would have approved of his (fairly extreme) position that Protestants, like Catholics, should pray for Mary's intercession. "My pastor would have been horrified," he says, adding, "The pastor was my father." Yet today Catholics and Protestants feel freer to explore each other's beliefs and practices. Feminism has encouraged popular speculations on the lives of female biblical figures and the role of the divine feminine (think The Red Tent and The Da Vinci Code). A growing interest, on both the Protestant right and left, in practices and texts from Christianity's first 1,500 years has led to immersion in the habitual Marianism of the early and medieval church. And the influx of millions of Hispanic immigrants from Catholic cultures into American Protestantism may eventually accelerate progress toward a pro-Marian tipping point—on whose other side may lie changes not just in sermon topic but in liturgy, personal piety and a re-evaluation of the actual messages of the Reformation.

The movement is not yet prevalent in the pews. And it has its critics. While granting that Mary shows up more in the New Testament than some churches recognize, Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Southern Seminary, charges that those who use her full record to justify new "theological constructions" around her are guilty of "overreaching," "wishful thinking" and effectively "flirting with Catholic devotion." Yet Lutheran theologian Carl Braaten, co-editor of an essay collection on what might be called Marian upgrade, claims, "We don't have to go back to Catholicism. We can go back to our own roots and sources. It could be done without shocking the congregation. I can't predict how exactly it will happen. Some of it will be good, and some of it may be bad.

But I think it's going to happen." .....


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: marianity; mary; virginbirthmyth; virginmyth
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1 posted on 03/13/2005 7:16:00 PM PST by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff

First I've heard of this and can say now I don't agree with it. Mary was Jesus's mother nothing more and nothing less.


2 posted on 03/13/2005 7:20:33 PM PST by swmobuffalo (the only good terrorist is a dead one)
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To: swmobuffalo

Nothing wrong with deep respect for a mother who saw her son brutalized the way she did.


3 posted on 03/13/2005 7:22:38 PM PST by arkfreepdom
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To: swmobuffalo

I haven't heard of it either. Mary needed the Saviour too.


4 posted on 03/13/2005 7:24:23 PM PST by sangoo
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To: churchillbuff
Could be true, some sectors of "protestantism" are degrading..
Hope not, but could be true..
5 posted on 03/13/2005 7:24:26 PM PST by hosepipe (This Propaganda has been edited to include not a small amount of Hyperbole..)
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To: churchillbuff

I hate confining labels, but as a "Protestant" I have affection for Mary. I don't believe for a minute that she hears prayer or in any way intercedes for us. That's the Son's role.


6 posted on 03/13/2005 7:24:38 PM PST by avenir (Life becomes cheaper when the cost for taking it does.)
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To: churchillbuff


.


NEVER FORGET


MEL's next -PASSION- will be the...

Miracle of -FATIMA-


MEL's -PASSION- was about the Past and the Future

MEL's -FATIMA- will explain what we can all do about both in the Present



MEL's -PASSION- was sparked by -WE WERE SOLDIERS-


for: Sacrifice begets Sacrifice

and: LOVE is the Only Reality

and: GOD is LOVE

http://www.Freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1085111/posts


NEVER FORGET

.


7 posted on 03/13/2005 7:25:23 PM PST by ALOHA RONNIE ("ALOHA RONNIE" Guyer/Veteran-"WE WERE SOLDIERS" Battle of IA DRANG-1965 http://www.lzxray.com)
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To: churchillbuff
Mary is a very important person, being the mother of Jesus, but she is not a co-redemptrix as some view her.
8 posted on 03/13/2005 7:26:23 PM PST by InvisibleChurch (Look! Jimmy Carter! History's greatest monster!)
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To: arkfreepdom

Respect, sure. Worship? Uh, no. If this is happening, it's surely only within the elites of the National/World Council of Churches -- certainly not within the rank-n-file of even these liberal Protestant denominations.


9 posted on 03/13/2005 7:26:41 PM PST by alancarp (When does it cease to be "Freedom of the Press" and become outright SEDITION?)
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To: churchillbuff

Mary was a sinner saved by grace just as any sinner. Silly to think she was sinless as those who believe in the immaculate conception do.


10 posted on 03/13/2005 7:26:43 PM PST by what's up
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To: swmobuffalo

Good grief! It's bad enough the Catholics let her get in their way with Jesus all the time...now they want Protestants to deify her!


11 posted on 03/13/2005 7:28:37 PM PST by Lurking2Long
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To: churchillbuff

That didn't take long...


12 posted on 03/13/2005 7:30:13 PM PST by Carpe Cerevisi
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To: ALOHA RONNIE
will Mel reveal the third Fatima secret? i thot it was withheld by the vatican because the information was supposed to be too dis-spiriting to the faithful

any word on it?

13 posted on 03/13/2005 7:31:22 PM PST by InvisibleChurch (Look! Jimmy Carter! History's greatest monster!)
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To: swmobuffalo
Read the full article. It makes a case that she was First among the disciples:

While Mary's role in the Nativity is recalled dutifully each December, largely overlooked is the subsequent presentation of Jesus at the temple, during which the righteous old man Simeon tells Mary that "a sword will pierce your own soul also."

Also neglected are her maternal frenzy when her 12-year-old son goes missing to debate the temple elders and her role at the wedding at Cana, where, at her behest, he performs (somewhat grudgingly) his first miracle, changing water into wine. The most striking omission, at least from Protestant sermons, is a recognition of the import of her role at the Cross.

Although the first three Gospels don't place Mary there by name, many readings assume she is one of the women who remain, watching Christ's agony, after the male disciples have fled. In John's Gospel she shares that witness with an unnamed disciple (often thought to be John), and Jesus, near death, commends them to each other, telling her, "Woman, behold your son!" and telling John, "Behold your mother." Mary makes one final appearance, as the only named woman in a mostly male group gathered in an "upper room" who, guided by the Holy Spirit, will make up the new church.

Gaventa's conclusion was that although Mary's appearances can be brief and frustratingly devoid of anecdote, "there isn't a figure comparable to her." No major player appears earlier in the story, and none, she notes, "is present in all these key situations: at Jesus' birth, at his death, in the upper room." Protestant treatments, Gaventa asserted, tended to limit themselves to what God does through Mary rather than talk about Mary herself. "You could say the same thing about the Apostle Peter—that the stories are not really about him," Gaventa says. "But that doesn't keep people from talking about Peter as a role model from whom Christians can learn things."

And so, in the book she finally wrote, Mary: Glimpses of the Mother of Jesus, and in essays and lectures, Gaventa began reviving or establishing Marian titles that, unlike Queen of Heaven, are more appropriate for Protestant use. One was First Disciple. Traditional commentary saw Mary's "Let it be" primarily as a statement of obedience. But Gaventa, and many who followed, heard in it a thought-through acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah made long before any other believer's. In a Christianity Today article, Timothy George, dean of Beeson Divinity School at Samford University in Birmingham, Ala., paraphrases some of the original reformers, saying, "If she had not believed, she would not have conceived."

14 posted on 03/13/2005 7:32:08 PM PST by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff
A growing interest, on both the Protestant right and left, in practices and texts from Christianity's first 1,500 years has led to immersion in the habitual Marianism of the early and medieval church.

Protestants would do well to remember that there was a thriving Church, as ordained by Christ Himself, with a well-developed theology and tradition for 300 years before there was a Bible.

I was raised in a Protestant household, but my family and I have "swum the Tiber. " There is a Mother Church, and she welcomes all her lost sheep back to the fold.

-ccm

15 posted on 03/13/2005 7:32:10 PM PST by ccmay (Question Diversity)
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To: churchillbuff

A couple of nice articles about praying to Mary and the saints:

http://www.catholic-convert.com/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/Documents/MaryAndWorship.doc

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/praying.htm


16 posted on 03/13/2005 7:32:10 PM PST by David1
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To: churchillbuff
"Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Southern Seminary, charges that those who use her full record to justify new 'theological constructions' around her are guilty of 'overreaching,' 'wishful thinking' and effectively 'flirting with Catholic devotion.'"

I suggest that Mohler prepare for the inevitable in the Southern Baptist Convention, of which churches have already gone feminist and romanticist. The process started in America over 150 years ago, and it's going to happen sooner or later. He should also begin the long, detailed self-study of the earliest parts of the 1900-year history of Christianity and decide as to which side he'll be on after rearrangements are more or less completed.
17 posted on 03/13/2005 7:32:38 PM PST by familyop ("Let us try" sounds better, don't you think? "Essayons" is so...Latin.)
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To: churchillbuff

TIME? nevermind........


18 posted on 03/13/2005 7:33:28 PM PST by RFEngineer
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To: ccmay

Welcome home. I am a convert myself.


19 posted on 03/13/2005 7:33:52 PM PST by Carpe Cerevisi
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To: avenir

OK, but when Hank Henagraff, the Bible answer man, asks a caller for him or her to "pray for me." What does he mean and if it's okay for him to ask some disembodied voice on the phone to pray to God for him, why shouldn't I ask God's mother?


20 posted on 03/13/2005 7:34:41 PM PST by Mercat (smeeeeee)
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To: churchillbuff; GatorGirl; maryz; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; livius; ...

Ping.


21 posted on 03/13/2005 7:35:46 PM PST by narses (St James the Moor-slayer, Pray for us! +)
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To: what's up
Mary was a sinner saved by grace just as any sinner.

That's pretty much the Catholic Church's teaching as well, though we likely disagree on the timing:

Immaculate Conception

22 posted on 03/13/2005 7:36:02 PM PST by D-fendr
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To: Mercat

As a non-Christian I congratulate you on the most logical post on this thread. :D


23 posted on 03/13/2005 7:36:21 PM PST by Darkwolf377 (I'm too fat to be this hungry)
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To: Mercat

Lemme guess - someone's going to say that Mary is dead, not realizing that the saints are more alive than we are.


24 posted on 03/13/2005 7:36:47 PM PST by Carpe Cerevisi
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To: swmobuffalo
First I've heard of this and can say now I don't agree with it. Mary was Jesus's mother nothing more and nothing less.

There is only one person in all humanity of whom God has one picture, and in whom there is a perfect conformity between what He wanted her to be and what she is, and that is His Own Mother. The model and the copy are perfect. As Eden was the Paradise of Creation, Mary is the Paradise of th Incarnation. The closer one gets to the fire, the greater the heat; the closer one is to God, the greater the purity. But since no one was ever closer to God than the woman whose human portals He threw open to walk this earth, then no one could have been more pure than she. We do not start with Mary. We start with Christ. The less we think of Him, the less we think of her; the more we think of Him, the more we think of her; the more we adore His Divinity, the more we venerate her Motherhood. It may be objected: 'Our Lord is enough for me. I have no need of her.' But He needed her, whether we do or not. God, Who made the sun, also made the moon. The moon does not take away from the brilliance of the sun. All its light is reflected from the sun. The Blessed Mother reflects her Divine Son; without Him, she is nothing. With Him, she is the Mother of Men. {Archbishop Fulton Sheen, The World's First Love, 1952}

25 posted on 03/13/2005 7:37:43 PM PST by narses (St James the Moor-slayer, Pray for us! +)
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To: churchillbuff

Martin Luther writes very respectfully of Mary and uses all of the Catholic names for her except Queen of Heaven.

A less favorable attitude, and even occasional scorn for Mary, gradually came into the Protestant churches probably because they wanted to separate themselves from the Catholic Church.

swmobuffalo has written above that Mary was Jesus' mother, nothing more and nothing less. Being Jesus' mother is, however, if you think about it, something pretty unusual in human history.

All grace comes from God, but Jesus listens to the prayers of the faithful, and whom would he be more likely to listen to than to His mother? When she asks him to do something in the Bible, He does it.


26 posted on 03/13/2005 7:38:04 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: alancarp

Catholics do not worship Mary. We worship God.

http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp


27 posted on 03/13/2005 7:38:55 PM PST by FatherofFive (Choose life!)
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To: swmobuffalo
Mary was a tad different. God sent an angel to talk to her. Not everybody has that happen.

As prophesied she had to be of the House of David, be a virgin, etc.

In short, she's not just Jesus' mother, she is a person whose existence was prophesied ~ and other than the Messiah Himself, there really aren't all that many people like that.

Still not going to take up devotions to Mary though ~ she's still on the same kharmic wheel as the rest of us, waiting on the End Times and the Final Judgment.

28 posted on 03/13/2005 7:39:00 PM PST by muawiyah (gonna' be like with the anthrax thing ~ find a guy, harass him, let the terrorists escape)
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To: ccmay
Protestants would do well to remember that there was a thriving Church, as ordained by Christ Himself, with a well-developed theology and tradition for 300 years before there was a Bible.

Absolutely ridiculous statement. The Old Testament had been existence for some time. Or don't the Catholics consider that the Bible?

Not to mention that the New Testament scriptures were also voraciously read and taught from...they just hadn't been collated yet.

29 posted on 03/13/2005 7:39:28 PM PST by what's up
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To: swmobuffalo

Me either. Probably Catholic wishful thinking. Not that I am anti-Catholic per se.


30 posted on 03/13/2005 7:39:36 PM PST by clee1 (It takes 17 muscles to frown, 5 to smile, and 2 to pull a trigger. I'm a very lazy person.)
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To: avenir
I don't believe for a minute that she hears prayer…

This has to do with the communion of saints, part of the Apostles Creed. It's interesting to me that many protestants hold this creed, but apparently we disagree on the meaning of the communion of saints therein.

31 posted on 03/13/2005 7:39:55 PM PST by D-fendr
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To: swmobuffalo; reformjoy; Clinton Is Scum; Carl/NewsMax; Lexington Green

.

In Her 6 Appearances before 3 small deeply religious children at -FATIMA- Portugal in 1917 the Blessed Virgin Mary predicted:


-The Rise of a World Communism in Russia that hadn't yet been created

-A Coming World War II over 20 years ahead of time

-The soon approaching death of 2 of these 3 Portugese children which quickly came to pass. The 3rd child, a lifelong Carmelite Nun LUCIA, passed on last February 12th at age 97 looking decades younger then her age.

-The attempted assassination of Pope JOHN PAUL II over 60 years ahead of time.

Not your ordinary Mother of JESUS, perhaps..?

.


32 posted on 03/13/2005 7:40:42 PM PST by ALOHA RONNIE ("ALOHA RONNIE" Guyer/Veteran-"WE WERE SOLDIERS" Battle of IA DRANG-1965 http://www.lzxray.com)
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To: InvisibleChurch

I can't find anything in my Bible about an "Invisible Church." Got a reference?


33 posted on 03/13/2005 7:41:01 PM PST by SausageDog
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To: what's up
Mary was a sinner saved by grace just as any sinner. Silly to think she was sinless as those who believe in the immaculate conception do.

Luther's words follow:

It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin.

(Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," December [?] 1527; from Hartmann Grisar, S.J., Luther, authorised translation from the German by E.M. Lamond; edited by Luigi Cappadelta, London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner, first edition, 1915, Vol. IV [of 6], p. 238; taken from the German Werke, Erlangen, 1826-1868, edited by J.G. Plochmann and J.A. Irmischer, 2nd ed. edited by L. Enders, Frankfurt, 1862 ff., 67 volumes; citation from 152, p. 58)

She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.

(Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522)

34 posted on 03/13/2005 7:41:10 PM PST by narses (St James the Moor-slayer, Pray for us! +)
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To: SausageDog

Maybe that part was written in invisible ink.


35 posted on 03/13/2005 7:41:28 PM PST by Darkwolf377 (I'm too fat to be this hungry)
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To: ccmay
Protestants would do well to remember that there was a thriving Church, as ordained by Christ Himself, with a well-developed theology and tradition for 300 years before there was a Bible.

Catholics would do well to remember that there was a thriving assembly of believers ordained by the Creator of the Universe 2,300 years before the abomination that Constantine the sun worshipper made the state religion of the Roman Empire. Ever hear of Abraham? Have you ever read Romans chapter 4?

As well, a little humility is in order. The BIBLE you people carry, the first 2/3rds of it was written in Hebrew - not LATIN. And the 'church' did not give it to you - the faithful Hebrew scribes that the 'church' despicably persecuted for 1,900 years did. Shoot, even the so-called 'New Testament' was not a 'church' creation. It existed and was in use over 100 years before any Roman 'canon'. Look up the word 'canon'. Scripture is GIVEN by the Almighty - not SANCTIONED by a group of fallable men.
36 posted on 03/13/2005 7:41:40 PM PST by safisoft (Give me Torah!)
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To: FatherofFive
From your article:

Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.

Wow...what a bunch of extra-Biblical nonsense.

37 posted on 03/13/2005 7:42:24 PM PST by what's up
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To: hosepipe

"Could be true, some sectors of "protestantism" are degrading.."

Yep, right back to where they started -- the truth.


38 posted on 03/13/2005 7:42:53 PM PST by narses (St James the Moor-slayer, Pray for us! +)
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To: swmobuffalo
Mary was Jesus's mother nothing more and nothing less.

I'll play it safe and not go out on a limb like that but show a little bit more respect..........And I'm an agnostic most of the time.

Would you tell George W. Bush to his face that, "Barbara is the President's mother nothing more and nothing less"?

39 posted on 03/13/2005 7:43:10 PM PST by Polybius
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To: what's up


Well this is the thing, Saint Bernadette said that Mary appeared to her and said she was the immaculate conception (I don't know what that means) BUT


what's wierd is, Saint Bernadettes body is in a glass coffin on display, and her body is uncorrupted. It hasn't decomposed! It hasn't rotted, or, I'm not any religion but things like that make me wonder.


40 posted on 03/13/2005 7:43:33 PM PST by LauraleeBraswell ( CONSERVATIVE FIRST-Republican second.)
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To: what's up

I guess God really isn't as omnipotent as you think He is. If sin cannot come near to Him, then I would think that He would have prepared a way for the Virgin Mary to be free of sin ahead of her physical conception, seeing that she was to carry Him in her womb for 9 months. That's a lot closer to our Lord than any of the High Priests got to be (near to God) in the Old Testament, and before Jesus' death and resurrection. Why must you persist in thinking that God could not do what He clearly could and did?


41 posted on 03/13/2005 7:43:51 PM PST by Ohioan from Florida (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.- Edmund Burke)
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To: what's up

"they just hadn't been collated yet"

Where did the table of contents of the Bible come from? How do you know which, if any, books belong in the Bible? Because Martin Luther says so?


42 posted on 03/13/2005 7:44:39 PM PST by FatherofFive (Choose life!)
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To: Carpe Cerevisi; ccmay

Me three. Home is where the heart is, the Sacred Heart that is. :)


43 posted on 03/13/2005 7:45:09 PM PST by narses (St James the Moor-slayer, Pray for us! +)
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To: swmobuffalo

I'd never heard of this either.

Much to do about a fabrication.


44 posted on 03/13/2005 7:45:11 PM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: LauraleeBraswell
You need to read the passages in the Bible that speak of ALL humanity being totally depraved and in need of the perfect Savior.

No one is perfect...not one...not ever. Only Christ.

45 posted on 03/13/2005 7:45:20 PM PST by what's up
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To: what's up

Hey, what did the early Christians do before they had a Bible? That was extra-Biblical, too!


46 posted on 03/13/2005 7:46:28 PM PST by Ohioan from Florida (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.- Edmund Burke)
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To: RFEngineer
"TIME? nevermind......"

The only post on this thread worth reading. If Time says it....the opposite is true.

47 posted on 03/13/2005 7:46:40 PM PST by Rokke
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To: what's up; narses



Does the bible say exactly that Mary Magdelene was a whore who was forgiven? I haven't read the bible, but since you both seem well versed, does it?


48 posted on 03/13/2005 7:47:09 PM PST by LauraleeBraswell ( CONSERVATIVE FIRST-Republican second.)
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To: Ohioan from Florida
Why must you persist in thinking that God could not do what He clearly could and did?

It is not clear at all that God made Mary sinless. This is preposterous.

49 posted on 03/13/2005 7:47:41 PM PST by what's up
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To: Cicero

"Being Jesus' mother is, however, if you think about it, something pretty unusual in human history."

Yes, thank you. Although I was raised a Catholic (I'm still a Catholic, actually) I never really "got" Mary until I became a mother. Without chiming in on the debate here, let me just say that she is a fine model, and refuge, for all mothers.


50 posted on 03/13/2005 7:48:15 PM PST by jocon307
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