Skip to comments.Christís Second Coming (1)
Posted on 04/07/2005 8:31:12 AM PDT by TheTruthess
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And what of the land boundaries in the Abrahamic covenant, are you saying that God promised something to Abraham that he has no intention of fulfilling?
No, Matt 24:1-34 is not a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. There are some similarities, but it cannot be a reference to 70 AD. There are so many reasons why your interpretation if this important passage is wrong, but let me key on only one aspect.
Verse 21. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
This period of time must be a reference to "The time of Jacobs trouble", "the great and terrible day of the Lord", the "great tribulation period". Since there can be only one time when tribulation is as bad as it can ever be, a study of the OT will show that all these terms are references to the same event. The great tribulation.
If that time of great tribulation happened in 70 AD, then the text in verse 29-31 makes it absolutely crystal clear that the second coming must have already happened. And there is no doubt that verse 30 is a reference to the 2nd coming. Notice the "coming in the clouds of heaven" ... just like in Daniel 7! ... In fact, the ancient Jewish rabbis correctly believed that only absolute diety could come in the clouds of heaven. This is why the high priest tore his clothes off his body in Matt 26.63-65. The high priest immediately recognized what Jesus was claiming when He told the high priest that He would come in the clouds of heaven.
Matt 24 is a reference to the 2nd coming ... no doubt about it. And since the second coming hasnt happened yet, Matt 24 is future fulfillment.
Verse 34 says "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Since you are sure that all of Matthew 24 is in reference to the second coming of Christ, then where are these over 2000 year old people?
The generation that Jesus was referencing was not the generation that included the disciples, otherwise, the second coming would have happened already. He was referencing the generation that would be alive when all these events take place ... sometime in the future.
Uh... weren't they floated away in step one?
"He will remove His faithful from the earth"
Perhaps if you explain how Matt. 24:29-31 was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, I could understand where you are coming from.
That does not fit the context. You are really reaching to come to that conclusion.
How about verse 36, which says "But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." This is in reference to the second coming of Christ. Christ Himself says that no one will know the day and the hour. However, in the earlier part of the chapter, there are a lot of signs that Jesus talks about. How can these be in reference to the same event?
I am not a great Biblical scholar, but from what I have read, these verses deal with the idea that the Lord is orchestrating the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Verse 29 especially seems to be very symbolic. The bottom line is that the two sections of Matthew 24 are clearly talking about two separate events.
It fits the context perfectly, since Jesus was answering the questions "When will these things take place ... What will be the sign of your coming" ... since He has not come yet, which we both would agree on that, He has to be talking about a future generation.
The context of the entire chapter clearly shows that two events are being talked about.
Agree that vs 36 is reference to the 2nd coming. The "signs" in the earlier verses are referenced to the types of things happening during the tribulation. Notice He uses the birthpangs analogy. Birth pangs for a woman produce some level of pain and discomfort, but they are only a hint of the anguish to come. Birthpangs are used by Jesus to describe all these horrible things; war, famine, earthquakes, false christs. Then comes the real bad stuff, i.e., tribulation greater than ever before.
You are still claiming that there will be definite "signs" of things leading up to Christ's return. However, Christ clearly teaches that His return will catch people off guard, as in the days of Noah.
And why is that a problem? ... Birthpangs are a sign of an impending birth, you dont know the exactly time of the birth ... but you know its coming.
Just because there are signs prior to His second coming doesnt mean you can compute the "hour and the day" when he will actually return.
You cant stop at verse 39, you must continue on to verses 40 and 41.
The point of Jesus teaching there is not that everything that happened in the time of Noah, will happen during the 2nd coming ...
His point is that there is a coming judgment that will happen upon His second coming, not that the signs will be the same. When Christ comes again, He will separate the "wheat" from the "chaff." ... Verse 40 and 41 talks about one being taken away, and another left. Some Christians mistakenly teach this is a reference to the rapture. It is not. It is a reference to Christ taking away unbelievers into judgment at his second coming. ... Think about it for a minute. In Noahs day, who were those taken away by the flood? UNBELIEVERS. ... Just as in the days of Noah, unbelievers were swept away into judgment, so shall it be when Christ returns. One will be in the field, and one will be taken ... they will be taken away into judgment, and only believers will be left on Earth at the beginning of the millenium.
It's obvious you will twist whatever verse I point out to fit your beliefs. I don't have the time to point out all the differences in the two events. If you have the time, please read this article: http://www.christiancourier.com/archives/matthew24.htm
It was a well written article, I did have a chance to read it ... but the author makes 2 grave mistakes, the second being the more serious.
1. He assumes Hal Lindsey is a solid theologian to represent the premillenial view, which is why he chose Lindsey; so he could build his strawman from Lindseys arguments. Lindsey is a populist, and he sells books.
2. He completely ignores, and actually mis-interprets, the most damaging passage to his position. Verse 29-30.
He tries to claim that verse 29-30 shows that Jesus is orchastrating all these events (AD 70 events) from heaven. But the passage doesnt even come close to saying that, because what the passage literally says is crushing to his position.
What does it say ?
The sign of the Son of Man (Notices Jesus calls himself the Son of Man. Jesus is telling you HE is the Son of Man of Daniel 7!!!) will appear in the sky ...
And it will appear in such a way that all the tribes of the Earth shall mourn. Why? ... Because they all see the sign. And what is the sign? ... The Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
There is nothing symbolic about this passage, despite what he claims ... it is a clear, straightforward reading of the text. That is what the text says. The author of the article ignores this passage, or worse, spiritualizes it away because he HAS to ... it is devestating to his position.
This is the second coming ... and the second coming did not occur in 70 AD.
Are you prepared to say that the 2nd coming happened in 70 AD? If verses 29-30 are not the 2nd coming, then what was it? I dont recall any Jewish historian recording seeing the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with great power and glory. Sure sounds like a major world event when all the tribes of the earth see it and mourn.
Since you only mentioned verses 29-30 as where you differ with the author, are you saying that the idea that the entire chapter is about Christ's second coming hinges on those verses? You would have to, since the author very eloquently shoots down the other arguments you have stated.
Oh no, I disagree with his analysis almost totally. What I am saying is that he includes verses 29-30 in his "all this from 1-34 happened in 70 AD" interpretation. Im saying that 29-30 is the 2nd coming ... and the second coming did not happen in 70 AD ... so his analysis is fundamentally flawed in a critical point.
Here is a site for you. It is the Pre-Trib Research site and these are the scholars and authors that someone should be reading for theological views on pre-trib premillenial views, not Hal Lindsey.
In here you will find a very in-depth analysis of Matt 24 by Thomas Ice. It will take several hours to read the set of articles on Matt 24 since its in about 32 parts and in tremendous detail. He gives exegetical explanations of various positions and would especially point out the problems with differing views. It is well worth the read, though I admit I havent gone through all the articles.
In Him ...
Mark 15 (KJV)
15:2 And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering said unto him, Thou sayest it.
Mark 15 (ASV)
15:2 And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering saith unto him, Thou sayest.
Mark 15 (HCSB)
15:2 So Pilate asked Him, "Are You the King of the Jews?" He answered him, "You have said it."
15:2 And Pilate asked Him, "Art thou the King of the Jews?" And answering He said unto him, "Thou sayest it." (TMB)
15:2 Pilate asked him, "Are you the King of the Jews?" He answered him, "You say so." (NRSV)
15:2 And Pilate asked him: Art thou the king of the Jews? But he answering, saith to him: Thou sayest it. (Douay-Rheims)
15:2 Pilate questioned him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" Jesus answered, "So you say." (GNT)
15:2 And Pilate asked him, "Are you the King of the Jews?" And he answered him, "You have said so." (RSV)
15:2 Pilate asked him, "Are you the 'King of the Jews'?"
15:3 The high priests let loose a barrage of accusations.
15:4 Pilate asked again, "Aren't you going to answer anything? That's quite a list of accusations."
15:5 Still, he said nothing. Pilate was impressed, really impressed.
15:6 It was a custom at the Feast to release a prisoner, anyone the people asked for. (TM)
15:2 Pilate put this question to him: "Are you the King of the Jews?" He answered him, "The words are yours." (CJB)
15:2 Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" Jesus answered, "Those are your words." (NCV)
15:2 Pilate asked him, "Are you the King of the Yehudim?" He answered, "So you say." (HNV)
15:2 Pilate asked him, "Are you the King of the Jews?" He answered, "So you say." (WE)
15:2 And Pilate put a question to him, Are you the King of the Jews? And he, answering, said to him, You say so. (BBE)
15:2 and Pilate questioned him, `Art thou the king of the Jews?' and he answering said to him, `Thou dost say [it].' (YLT)
15:2And Pilate asked him, Art *thou* the King of the Jews? And he answered and said to him, *Thou* sayest.
15:2And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering, said to him, Thou sayest [it]. (WBT)
15:2et interrogavit eum Pilatus tu es rex Iudaeorum at ille respondens ait illi tu dicis (Latin Vulgate)
Which bible are you quoting from?
Not according to the New Testament.
I did some digging into this 'rapture' business, some time back and this is what I determined.
First I noticed some variances with the following verses, depending on which bible a person uses.
Luke 17 (KJV)
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
The verse in question is 37. I did a search on the word eagles. Got this.
From the Greek
105 aetos ah-et-os'
1) an eagle: since eagles do not usually go in quest of carrion, this may apply to a vulture that resembles an eagle
2) an eagle as a standard (Roman Military)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Rewards aren't given prior, they are given after.
Psalm 37 (JPS)
9 For evil-doers shall be cut off; but those that wait for YHWH, they shall inherit the land.
20 For the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of YHWH shall be as the fat of lambs -- they shall pass away in smoke, they shall pass away.
22 For such as are blessed of Him shall inherit the land; and they that are cursed of Him shall be cut off.
23 It is of YHWH that a man's goings are established; and He delighted in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; for YHWH upholdeth his hand.
27 Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.
28 For YHWH loveth justice, and forsaketh not His saints; they are preserved for ever; but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.
33 YHWH will not leave him in his hand, nor suffer him to be condemned when he is judged.
34 Wait for YHWH, and keep His way, and He will exalt thee to inherit the land; when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
38 But transgressors shall be destroyed together; the future of the wicked shall be cut off.
39 But the salvation of the righteous is of YHWH; He is their stronghold in the time of trouble.
40 And YHWH helpeth them, and delivereth them; He delivereth them from the wicked, and saveth them, because they have taken refuge in Him.
YHWH is the deliverer, and the saviour.
Isaiah 47:4 - Our Redeemer, YHWH of hosts is His name, The Holy One of Israel.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Alive and remain. This indicates that some are dead and gone already. (The wicked)
It might be that during this period of being caught up in the air, is when the new earth and heaven are created, but not to avoid the tribulation. jmho
You have done quite alot of work. Except you assume the pre-trib rapturist sees the rapture in the Olivet Discourse. The rapture is not taught in Matt 24, or the other instances of the Olivet Discourse that have been mentioned; though some pre-tribbers might think that it does ... your analysis shows that the text does not support it; and I would agree with you 100%. Not many pre-trib scholars would view the rapture in Matt 24.
These passages refer to the 2nd coming, when you are correct, unbelievers will be removed in judgment and only believers will remain to populate the earth at the beginning of the earthly reign. The 1000 years ends, Satan is released, The Great White Throne judgment ... then the kingdom continues with a new heaven and new earth thrown in there somewhere.
The cutting edge in pre-trib thinking is found in numerous articles on the site ...
There wasn't a 'yes' in the 18 bibles I quoted either. Is the NIV the only bible that has the word 'yes' in that verse?
Post the verses that support a pre trib rapture.
The yes is missing from the latin, is it also missing from the Greek? I'll have to see if I can check it out later.
That isn't what the major majority of the texts say, though. You are accepting an extremely minor interpretation. The greek text will help a lot.
Rather than me posting a verse, and having you say it does not apply ... why not go read an exegetical analysis of the relevant passages ... there are several short articles which spell out the arguments that are used.
You can try these ...
Post the verses. If they support pre trib, it will be easy to see.
They are short articles, they are easy to follow, and they would do a better job explaining it than I could. And if you spend some time browsing articles, you will certainly find something of interest to you.
Obviously the verses do not explicitly support pre trib or you would be gladly posting them, over and over and over.
Fine, I'll bite ...
1 Thess. 1:9-10
1 Cor. 1:7
1 John 3:2-3
Now go read http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=120
Here's an example of what you listed.
1 Thess. 1:9-10
1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
First of all notice that delivered is in the PAST tense, meaning it already happened. I suspect they are speaking of the crucifixion.
1 Cor. 1:7
1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Someone's smoking some good weed to invent a pre trib rapture out of those words!
2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
There is absolutely nothing to suggest a pre trib rapture or any rapture in that verse.
14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
These verses suggest that he is going to ready a room somewhere. My first question is where? My second question is where is G-d's Kingdom supposed to be? These verses help to support my position that maybe people are taken up AFTER the tribulation while the new heaven and earth are created. Certainly nothing in the verses to indicate a pre trib rapture.
Again, absolutely nothing to support a pre trib or any rapture.
Seems my post 84 was right on the money.
Look ... I have indulged you out of a quaint curiosity, despite the fact that I predicted what you would do. You obviously have no desire to study the text of the Scripture in any meaningful way. I have given you a very brief list of exegetical essays that outline the position ... but you are unwilling to engage even a simple task.
Instead of asking yourself, "How is this passage understood by rapturists as support" you go off on an irrational rampage which only highlights your unwillingness to put some effort into the text of Scripture.
Perhaphs your tagline suits you more than you realize ...
Actually, he didnt even get that right. Let's look at a few translations for 1 Thes. 1:10 ...
10: And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (KJV, which is what ET posted)
10: and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the deadJesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath (NIV)
10: and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come. (NASB)
10: and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. (NJKV)
The participle here is not in the past tense "who delivered us" but rather a present tense ... "the one who delivers us" ... so ....... I fail to see how this is a reference to the crucifixion. The wrath to come is a future event ... and we are assured that Jesus is and will deliver us from that future wrath. What wrath is Paul talking about ... can only be one thing ... the wrath of God poured out during the tribulation period. So we have a passage that promises rescue from a future wrath. The word rapture is not there ... but the idea that we will be rescued from this coming wrath is clearly there ...
Nope. Just as Noah and his family were not removed from the planet and had to endure the flood, so too will we have to endure the wrath. We will be protected in the same manner as well. YHWH looks after his people. Looks at Lot, YHWH got him and out of harms way, his wife disobeyed and looked back and wasn't so fortunate.
I thought I covered that in my earlier post. I'll repeat it.
Psalm 91 (JPS)
5 Thou shalt not be afraid of the terror by night, nor of the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Of the pestilence that walketh in darkness, nor of the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand may fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold, and see the recompense of the wicked.
9 For thou hast made YHWH who is my refuge, even the Most High, thy habitation.
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy tent.
11 For He will give His angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
Ahhh my tagline. It is based on the KJV (and others I'm sure) DELIBERATELY mistranslating a certain verse to try and force a prophecy fulfillment.
BUT NOT BECAUSE OF A RAPTURE. BECAUSE WE WILL BE PROTECTED LIKE NOAH AND LOT ETC. They weren't taken away or removed from the earth. They believed YHWH and trust in YHWH.
Isaiah 43:11 -- I, even I, am YHWH; and beside Me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 47:4 - Our Redeemer, YHWH of hosts is His name, The Holy One of Israel.
Psalm 146:3 - Put not your trust in Princes, nor in the Son of Man, in whom there is no help.
Isaiah 49:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine; and all flesh shall know that I YHWH am thy Saviour, and thy Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.
And so have you bothered to read any of the articles ?
While your belief that the Church will be protected, but go through, the Tribulation period on the outside has a sense of appeal and sounds good (your analogy of Noah, Lot) ... it demonstrates a fundamental lack of understand of the PURPOSE of the Tribulation. The purpose of the Tribulation is
1. The judgement of the unbelieving world
2. Evangelization of the world
3. Conversion of Israel
Romans 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in,
Revelation teaches that many who are saved during the tribulation will be killed because of their faith. Do you really believe that we will be protected during the tribulation (because Noah and Lot were), but those who don't believe until the tribulation are out of luck?