Posted on 04/14/2005 5:56:15 PM PDT by TheStickman
Good Evening,
I need to know that Satan has not some how wormed his way into the annulment process my wife and I find ourselves in. I trust in God's Will and Mercy. I truly believe God wants my wife and I to be brought into the Church. However, the more I read about and experience the annulment process the more I begin to worry Satan's hands are wrist-deep in the whole process. The fact I can ask for and receive forgiveness thru the Sacrament of Confession for ANYTHING--except the horrible sin of a failed marriage seems to me to be disordered logic also. A couple of admissions upfront. I know the Church isn't going to change the procedures just because I'm frustrated and ignorant of the process. I also know I've seen the Truth of Christ's Presence in the Eucharist and there is no way I can ever turn away and act like I don't know what I now know. I am 100% certain I am missing something here but for the life of me can't figure out what it is. However, if I die before the annulment process is finished or if the annulments are denied--Satan wins and I experience the eternal abscence of God. Some have told me this won't happen, that I would go to Purgatory and then to Heaven. But--how can that happen if I die living in mortal sin as I am thru the state of my current (wonderfully happy) marriage? Again, I submit there's disorder in the logic or, admittedly in my understand of things. I'm loooking for answers here. Whether I'm patient or not has no bearing on the question of Satan's possible involvement in the annulment process. There is no ministry at the parish to teach and guide folks in these situations and I feel like we're just flailing away on our own. We are thankful some wonderful people have been praying for us in this matter. I would greatly appreciate an answer(s) to this because it's more than a little disconcerting to feel like the very Church I know Christ founded is at times proceeding (and I'm sure I'm not the only one who's ever felt this way) in a fashion that's been somehow disordered by Satan.
May the Peace of Our Lord be With You All!
I regret you've taken the opportunity of my request for assitance in understanding this issue to express your anti-Catholic view.
Let's assume for a moment that the devil is at work. Jesus has told us something about dealing with him: prayer and fasting, and the saints teach that humility is a shield against him.
I was just reading an excerpt from Blessed Teresa of Calcutta; it must've been for you: "I must not attempt to control God's actions; I must not count the stages of the journey he would have me make. I must not desire a clear perception of my advance along the road, nor know precisely where I am on the way of holiness. I ask him to make a siant of me, yet I must leave to him the choice of the means which lead to it..."
Offer sacrifices to God and be patient, submit to the will of God whatever it might be. That is the way of the Cross.
It's interesting that you would accept Hell for your current state of "bliss," though... that can't be a healthy place to be.
[i]It's interesting that you would accept Hell for your current state of "bliss," though... that can't be a healthy place to be.[/i]
Hmmm...if I was willing to go to Hell there wouldn't be much point in trying to join the Church or go thru the annulment process, would their?
The excerpt from Teresa is certainly beautiful. However, it doesn't actually answer my questions.
However, if I die before the annulment process is finished or if the annulments are denied--Satan wins and I experience the eternal abscence of God.
But do you mean that you are engaging in unlawful (that is, sinful) relations with your wife, and so cannot receive the Sacrament? I don't understand why your parish priest wouldn't have informed you of the necessity of living as brother and sister until a judgment in your case, as to whether Decrees of Nullity should be issued. St. Leonard, of Port Maurice:
What is the use of knowing whether few or many are saved? Saint Peter says to us, "Strive by good works to make your election sure." When Saint Thomas Aquinas's sister asked him what she must do to go to heaven, he said, "You will be saved if you want to be." I say the same thing to you, and here is proof of my declaration. No one is damned unless he commits mortal sin: that is of faith. And no one commits mortal sin unless he wants to: that is an undeniable theological proposition. Therefore, no one goes to hell unless he wants to; the consequence is obvious. Does that not suffice to comfort you?Weep over past sins, make a good confession, sin no more in the future, and you will all be saved. Why torment yourself so? For it is certain that you have to commit mortal sin to go to hell, and that to commit mortal sin you must want to, and that consequently no one goes to hell unless he wants to. That is not just an opinion, it is an undeniable and very comforting truth; may God give you to understand it, and may He bless you. Amen.
ping
No, I don't. I mean that we are not allowed to come into the Church at all until the annulments are granted. If my wife and I never become One Flesh again in our lives we are still in mortal sin for things we did individually before we ever met and a couple of things after we became married.
And no one commits mortal sin unless he wants to: that is an undeniable theological proposition.
Had I been born, baptized and raised in the teachings of the Catholic Church I would agree with you 100%. But I wasn't. It's only been just over a year since I attended my very 1st Mass.
Something that should perhaps be clarified- TheStickman is not (as yet) Catholic. He is (trying to) converting. However, he can't do that without the annulment. So it isn't (just)a question of his living chastely. He could do that for the rest of his life and never be able to make Confession and be Confirmed into the Church.
O MY God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee and I detest all my sins because of Thy just punishments, but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, who art all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to sin no more and avoid the near occasions of sin. Amen.
The CCC says:
1451 Among the penitent's acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again."501452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called "perfect" (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51
1453 The contrition called "imperfect" (or "attrition") is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin's ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.52
1454 The reception of this sacrament ought to be prepared for by an examination of conscience made in the light of the Word of God. The passages best suited to this can be found in the Ten Commandments, the moral catechesis of the Gospels and the apostolic Letters, such as the Sermon on the Mount and the apostolic teachings.53
Remember that mortal sin requires three things: objectively grave matter (or an offense to God in a matter you believe to be grave), full knowledge, and full freedom.
I would doubt that the knowledge and freedom were truly there at the time you committed those acts.
Even if they were, perfect contrition -- sorrow for sin which arises from the love of God, not just from fear of punishment -- suffices for forgiveness.
Padre Pio said: "Pray, hope, and don't worry." When these fretful thoughts come to you, pray a rosary, read a psalm. God loves you both very much. He will find a way.
I would make such an act ASAP if I were permitted to do so. I've longed to make my 1st Confession since the day I finally understood it to be a Sign by which I can be forgiven and receive Grace. However, until the annulments are granted, I cannot partake of the Sacraments. I'm going to guess our pastor didn't tell us of this because we are not yet Catholic.
"The fact I can ask for and receive forgiveness thru the Sacrament of Confession for ANYTHING--except the horrible sin of a failed marriage seems to me to be disordered logic also."
It is disordered logic, yes. Fortunately, that's not what the Church teaches.
(1) a failed marriage is not in itself a sin; and (2) there is nothing that cannot be forgiven (except that speaking against the Holy Spirit thing, and I don't understand that).
To be absolved, however, you must resolve not to continue in the sin in question (Ideo firmiter propono, adiuvante gratia Tua, de cetero me non peccaturum
peccandique occasiones proximas fugiturum.).
A priest can hardly absolve a person of a sin if the person expresses the intent to continue in that sin.
It may be a hard teaching, but it's not something the mean old Church just made up to keep people from having fun. Our Lord Jesus Christ himself said (Lk:16:18: 18) "Every one that putteth away his wife and marrieth another committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery."
A marriage can be annulled -- that is, judged never to have happened -- for several reasons. In such a case, the people in question were never married in God's eyes and so are free now to marry.
However, if a person's marriage doesn't meet the criteria for annulment, then that person is not free to marry. As I said, it's a hard teaching.
You can still be truly contrite for your sins, even if you are unable to receive the Sacrament, so long as you desire it. Ask your pastor - I can't imagine he'll disagree.
If they decide against you, you may still have recourse to appeal to the Rota (although I think that is more typically done by a party fighting an annulment).
May I ask in which diocese you are?
I will continue to pray for you. Do not give up hope.
"I'm going to guess our pastor didn't tell us of this because we are not yet Catholic."
Anyone can make an act contrition, any time. If you wish to say those things to God, you don't have to wait.
Besides, the fact that you don't have the admin stuff done yet doesn't justify your pastor withholding any knowledge from you. There ain't nothin' that's secret, "just us Catholics" knowledge.
It's been a year since we 1st filed the paperwork. I just received notice today of the Decree of Joinder of Issues.
I don't anticipate my ex will try to fight the annulment. I'll be surprised if she even answers the questionare. My biggest concern is the things which are relevant to the defects in the marriage were never publicly aired or shared with friends and such. Therefore there aren't any witnesses to anything except "They were married" and "then they were divorced" and "the husband was a pig" (sadly correct) and the 2 people I listed as witnesses I chose primarily because I knew they would tell the truth as they see it and would fill out the paperwork and remember to send it in!
We live the diocese of Charleston, SC.
Thank you for your prayers. We won't ever give up hope. The Presence of Christ in the Eucharist will never allow us to lose hope.
(except that speaking against the Holy Spirit thing, and I don't understand that).
I'm surprised you would say that. I mean, you know Latin and stuff. Isn't that stuff along the lines of John Francois and Teddy the Swimmer and others like them standing on the steps of the church, welcoming the admiration to them as Catholics (say it Cat-oh-leeks, like my Presbyterian mom-in-law jokes to get the full effect) and then voting four-square for partial birth abortion, etc. Isn't that the sort of behaviour that is meant by "speaking against the holy spirit"?
"the husband was a pig" (sadly correct)"
Well Stick, let me say this, at least, I'm very glad you are not a pig anymore, and I'm sure God is glad of that too. Can't help you with any of the legalistic stuff, but hang in there now non-piggish man! Hang in!
"Isn't that stuff along the lines of"
No, it was an admission of ignorance. It was an admission that I don't understand exactly what does and doesn't fall into the category of that sin, and why that one is the only unforgiveable one.
"I mean, you know Latin and stuff."
It's a lot easier to learn a little Latin than it is to understand the entirety of the Scriptures...although learning a little Latin does help.
"Isn't that the sort of behaviour that is meant by "speaking against the holy spirit"?"
I hope not, and I don't think so. I don't see how saying you don't understand something is equivalent to speaking against it.
"Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost"
Well, that was certainly a lot of information. However, I can't say that I had an "Oh, now I get it" moment.
Guess I need an explanation that's more "dumbed down."
I reckon there will come a day that I too, will be asking many questions about annulment...not of my own, but of the guy I might marry someday.
Keep the faith. I know I do.
Now I am a cradle Catholic Gaelic-speaking Irish Catholic raised all around the world and find myself most at home among Arabic-speaking Catholics of the Eastern rites. What you cannot accomplish juridically at this moment -- because of your lack of status -- you can address by prayer, fasting, sacrifices and by asking the prayers of St. Joseph and St. Mary -- who faced their own difficulties, if you recall. Also, the Eastern Catholic rites remind me that prayers to St. Boaz and St. Ruth are also very worthwhile. While the Roman Rite doesn't spend any time on them or asking for their intercession, why don't you ask their intercession. My father always liked to ask for their prayers when my husband and I were newly married and I was such an incredible hothead. I still am but my father's prayers yet endure, and my dear husband Himself is a saint of a fellow.
God bless ye both. Hold on to hope in Christ.
**Hold onto hope. The annulment process for converts makes no sense at all.**
Yes it does, because the church recognizes as valid the marriage between any baptized man and woman. Baptist man and Episcopal woman, both baptized, the church recognizes their marriage. Non-Catholic, baptized in their protestant church and Catholic get married in the non-Catholic church, the church still recognizes their marriage.
Have you ever attended a speaker from a Tribunal explaining the four points of validity? I just listened to one last night at our church.
That isn't what I was talking about. But thanks for the points in your post.
You are thinking too much. Satan is working on you but not in the manner you suspect. Also, be on guard against being overly legalistic. That can be difficult, especially for new Catholics, but the laws exist for the advancement of the soul on the spiritual path, not vice versa (the soul existing for the law).
Start some devotional practices. A structured prayer life (Rosary in Latin, the Divine Office, Adoration, etc) will keep you progressing even though the externals are not yet in place. Read the lives of the mystic saints. The Church is there to support you in the salvation of your soul. If you are worrying, you are not trusting. Your battle is within.
Thanks gbc, it appears I am at least somewhat mistaken about what this sin really is; but I gotta agree with dsc I too could use a more "dumbed down" explanation!
Can all sins be forgiven?
"Yes all sins, however great, can be forgiven, through the infinitum merits of Christ, Who is God.
"The repentant sinner is told in Scripture: 'If your sins be as scarlet, they shall be made white as snow.' (Is 1:17)"
1. God is always ready to forgive our sins, no matter how great or how many they are, if we are truly sorry for them. No actual sin can be forgiven without sorrow and repentance on the part of the sinner.
"Our Lord said: 'I say to you that, even so, there will be joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, more than over ninety-nine just who have no need of repentance." (Luke 15:7)"
2. "The sin against the Holy Ghost which Christ warned us would not be forgiven in heaven or on earth is persistent impenitence, the sin of one who rejects conversion and dies in mortal sin. One guilty of this sin can never obtain forgiveness of God, because at the hour of death he continues to thrust God away from him."
" A man mortally wounded cannot have any hope of cure if he not only refuses to listen to his doctors, but shuts his mouth against all medicines, and kicks away all medical instruments of help. Even Judas would have been pardoned if had asked asked for forgiveness and made a sincere act of contrition before his death"
Taken from:
Ch. 75, The Forgiveness of Sins, pg. 151. (Which just happens to be my favorite little catechism)
I have always been taught that the sin against the Holy Ghost is refusing to be contrite and seek God's forgiveness, either through pride, by thinking you have no need of forgiveness, or through despair, thinking that your sins are too great to be forgiven.
I hope that helps.
Any and all of the suffering you experience during this time, the doubt, the anxiety, the sadness, as well as any suffering resulting from abstaining from marital relations, may be offered to Our Lord's Most Sacred Heart, as an act of love and in reparation for past sins. This time may really be a grace from Our Lord, an opportunity to grow in virtues of patience and humility. Instead of viewing your situation as an attack by the evil one, see it as an extraordinary gift of grace the Lord is giving you, an opportunity to suffer for His sake through passive acceptance of God's will. All of these sufferings, united to Our Lord's sacrifice, accepted in trust, obedience and humility, will be jewels in your crown of glory in heaven, the crown He Himself will award you, upon final perseverance.
From one 'dummy' to another, ping to #29 for a more 'dumbed down' explanation. ;-)
oh that crazy spell check, one little slip of mouse = )
Thank you for your kind, hopeful words. You are right in that at times, this process makes no sense. Add to it the fact our parish has held information regarding just the process close to the vest--as if it were some state secret and there are days when I wonder who's looking out for who's best interest.
For instance, no one has EVER sat down with us and explained the entire process. No one! I didn't know the Decree of Joinder of Issues was step 3 of the 8 step annulment process till I looked it up on the net AND it's ONLY been a YEAR since we started the process. That it's never occurred to someone the value of letting us know what's what amazes me. Add to the the fact that each time you call or leave a message or send an email you have to play *squeaky wheel* in order to get a response and you can understand why I wrote the inital post in the 1st place.
I know many priests who say that mortal sins are extremely rare and they never heard anybody confess a mortal sin in all their years as a priest.
BTW the Catholic Church grants funerals to divorced Catholics who remarry outside the Church. The Church says that they can't judge these people.
"I hope that helps."
Sure does, and that looks like a good catechism book, too.
Thanks much.
and that looks like a good catechism book, too
It's my favorite, I use it for my daughter's instruction.
"Add to the the fact that each time you call or leave a message or send an email you have to play *squeaky wheel* in order to get a response and you can understand why I wrote the inital post in the 1st place."
Maybe that's one of the ways that Satan is messing with you, trying to get you insecure and upset.
Try this one. It does good stuff for me.
Prayer To St. Michael The ArchAngel
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio;
contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.
Imperat illi Deus; supplices deprecamur: tuque,
Princeps militiae coelestis, Satanam aliosque spiritus
malignos, qui ad perditionem animarum pervagantur in
mundo, divina virtute in infernum detrude. Amen
Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle,
be our safeguard and protection against the wickedness
and snares of the devil; may God rebuke him, we humbly
pray; and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host, by
the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil
spirits who wander through the world seeking the ruin
of souls. Amen.
"I know many priests who say that mortal sins are extremely rare and they never heard anybody confess a mortal sin in all their years as a priest."
That's confusing.
http://www.saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html
"The Church also tells us that the sins of anger, blasphemy, envy, hatred, malice, murder, neglect of Sunday obligation, sins against faith (incredulity against God or heresy), sins against hope (obstinate despair in the hope for salvation and/or presumption that oneself can live without God or be saved by one’s own power) and sins against love (indifference towards charity, ingratitude, and/or hatred of God) also constitute grave matter. This list of grave sins, is based on Jesus Christ’s interpretation of the gravity of the Ten Commandments. Grave sins can be classed as sins against God, neighbor and self, and can further be divided into carnal and spiritual sins (CCC 1853).
Four other sins are considered grave also. These sins not only offend God, but men as well. Thus these four sins are called "the sins that cry to heaven for vengeance" and are likewise mortal sins. These grave sins are:
The voluntary murder (Genesis 4:10)
The sin of impurity against nature –Sodomy and homosexual relations (Genesis 18:20)
Taking advantage of the poor (Exodus 2:23)
Defrauding the workingman of his wages (James 5:4)
Finally, the capital sins are also considered grave matter. These sins are vices and are defined as contrary to the Christian virtues of holiness. They are pride, avarice, envy, wrath, lust, gluttony, and sloth (acedia)."
It's not unusual for me to have to confess every one of these last seven in a single confession. Am I that much worse than the rest of you. I mean, I knew I was way back at the end of the pack, but...
I believe in an all-loving, all-forgiving God.
A contrite heart will redeem all sin.
I've known a few priests who don't believe hell is real, and who believe everyone goes to heaven, except for maybe right wing republicans. They're apostate, they've lost their faith.
Yours is a beautiful post. And thank you for a timely reminder.
I used to be a terrible worry-wart. To the point of making myself ill. No more. I offer so much up; I pray for help and assistance all the time. But I worry no more. Worry, is time waster, and achieves naught.
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