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Analysis: At 78, Ratzinger A Rising Star
The Washington Times ^ | Apr. 15, 2005 | Uwe Siemon-Netto

Posted on 04/18/2005 2:22:37 PM PDT by Dajjal

Excerpt:

In truth, though, this soft-spoken Bavarian, who was consecrated priest at age 24, "is not so much doctrinaire as he is committed to the truth and sound doctrine," a leading Protestant theologian told United Press International Friday.

"He is arguably the Catholic Church's finest theologian, in addition to being a very humble and deeply religious man.

"If he is to be the next pontiff, we may expect extraordinary surprises of him," said this scholar who knows Ratzinger well but asked to remain anonymous.

One surprise may pertain to ecumenism and especially Eucharistic fellowship, Vatican observers said. While Ratzinger played an important role in the drafting of the papal encyclical "Ecclesia de Eucharistia" (Church of the Eucharist), which generally rules out intercommunion between Catholics and Protestants, he is known to have made some remarkable exceptions to this rule himself.

At the funeral Mass for John Paul II, Ratzinger communed the Rev. Roger Schutz, a Swiss Protestant pastor and founder of the Taizé ecumenical community in France.

A German Lutheran theologian well known to the cardinal told UPI that he, too, received the sacrament from his hands.

(Excerpt) Read more at washtimes.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events
KEYWORDS: benedict; benedictxvi; catholic; conclave; pope; ratzinger
At the funeral Mass for John Paul II, Ratzinger communed the Rev. Roger Schutz, a Swiss Protestant pastor and founder of the Taizé ecumenical community in France.

A German Lutheran theologian well known to the cardinal told UPI that he, too, received the sacrament from his hands.

FYI

(Of course, why were these Protestants going to Communion at a Catholic service in the first place?)

1 posted on 04/18/2005 2:22:40 PM PDT by Dajjal
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To: Dajjal

ping


2 posted on 04/18/2005 2:26:27 PM PDT by pa mom
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To: Dajjal

Wow. Quis custodet ipsos custodes?


3 posted on 04/18/2005 2:26:57 PM PDT by Romulus (Golly...suddenly I feel strangely SEDEVACANTIST!)
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To: Petronski; fortunecookie; Knitting A Conundrum

This is troubling, if accurate.
Read the entire article.


4 posted on 04/18/2005 2:28:32 PM PDT by onyx (Pope John Paul II - May 18, 1920 - April 2, 2005 = SANTO SUBITO!)
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To: Dajjal

charlemagne would be proud.


5 posted on 04/18/2005 2:29:59 PM PDT by ken21 (if you didn't see it on tv, then it didn't happen. /s)
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To: Dajjal

Interesting. They're hitting Cardinal Ratzinger from both sides now. Someone's really afraid of a Ratzinger pontificate, it would seem.


6 posted on 04/18/2005 2:32:01 PM PDT by B Knotts (Ioannes Paulus II, Requiescat in Pacem.)
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To: Dajjal

On second thought, I'm not sure how credible this story is.

Ratzinger did NOT impose a gag on his fellow cardinals. Hadrian VI was NOT a German.

"Ecclesia de Eucharistia" is NOT translated as "Church of the Eucharist".

To receive or give the Sacrament is to "communicate", not to "commune".

Based on this and the article's speculative interpretation of what the Cardinal may have "hinted" at, for the time being I'm going to reserve judgment on everything else reported here.


7 posted on 04/18/2005 2:36:40 PM PDT by Romulus (Golly...suddenly I feel strangely SEDEVACANTIST!)
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To: Dajjal
Of course, why were these Protestants going to Communion at a Catholic service in the first place?

It is my understanding that the "Protestant" being described converted to the Catholic Faith a while back.

8 posted on 04/18/2005 2:37:05 PM PDT by TotusTuus (Christos Voskrese!)
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To: Mo1


I should have pinged you.
What do you make of this?
Can't be certain it's accurate.


9 posted on 04/18/2005 2:40:55 PM PDT by onyx (Pope John Paul II - May 18, 1920 - April 2, 2005 = SANTO SUBITO!)
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To: Dajjal

I suspect it's dirt thrown up to make Ratzinger look bad to our conservative eyes, or good to the liberal wish it was reals.

It was Ratzinger, I believe, that made sure another Asissi never happened. I think this is a piece by someone who has an agenda.


10 posted on 04/18/2005 2:47:55 PM PDT by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: onyx
Not sure if it's accurate .. but I have noticed the media has been pushing for him the last few days

IMO ... I don't think he'll be the next Pope
11 posted on 04/18/2005 2:49:16 PM PDT by Mo1 ("Stupidity is also a gift of God, but one mustn't misuse it" ~ Pope John Paul II)
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: Mo1


It's looking more like "dirt" to me.


13 posted on 04/18/2005 3:02:18 PM PDT by onyx (Pope John Paul II - May 18, 1920 - April 2, 2005 = SANTO SUBITO!)
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To: Knitting A Conundrum

What about Assissi II a few years back? Doesn't that count?


14 posted on 04/18/2005 3:22:14 PM PDT by Piers-the-Ploughman
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To: Dajjal

Very disturbing, but not surprising, considering the late Pope John Paul II communicated to both a pro-abort Protestant, Tony Blair, and a Jewish millionaire.

http://www.capeargus.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=55&fArticleId=2477891

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/04/09/ncatholic09.xml


15 posted on 04/18/2005 3:47:22 PM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: TotusTuus
It is my understanding that the "Protestant" being described converted to the Catholic Faith a while back.

Roger Schutz is still a Swiss Reformed brother. He did not convert. Taize is an ecumenical community.

16 posted on 04/18/2005 4:14:52 PM PDT by sinkspur (If you want unconditional love with skin, and hair and a warm nose, get a shelter dog.)
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To: sinkspur

I'm aware that Taize is an ecumenical (Order?) started during the WWII. But I caught a clip of the funeral Mass for Pope John Paul the Great and the commentator, who I believe was Neuhaus, was saying that the leader of the Taize community was now receiving communion (He was in a wheel chair brought up to Ratzinger) and that he had converted to full communion with the Catholic Church. I don't know if it was Roger Schultz or not.


17 posted on 04/18/2005 4:56:26 PM PDT by TotusTuus (Christos Voskrese!)
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To: TotusTuus

Schutz is the leader of Taize, but I could find nothing about any conversion.


18 posted on 04/18/2005 5:17:34 PM PDT by sinkspur (If you want unconditional love with skin, and hair and a warm nose, get a shelter dog.)
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To: Grey Ghost II

Isn't Ratzinger the one that was behind the announcement that the Jews can reject Jesus and find salvation, as they continue to wait for their own savior?


19 posted on 04/18/2005 5:21:01 PM PDT by donbosco74 (Sancte Padre Pio, ora pro nobis, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.)
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To: Grey Ghost II

I can't help but wonder what St. Peter and St. Paul would have to say about rejecting Jesus in favor of some other, more "acceptible" redeemer. It reminds me of the ending of Quo Primum, the wrath of Peter and Paul...


20 posted on 04/18/2005 5:26:40 PM PDT by donbosco74 (Sancte Padre Pio, ora pro nobis, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.)
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To: TotusTuus; sinkspur; Dajjal
"It is my understanding that the "Protestant" being described converted to the Catholic Faith a while back."

In spite of these signs of friendship, Roger Schutz and Max Thurian remained profoundly attached to their Protestant origins. Their understanding of the "Church" was such that they wanted Catholics and Protestants to be considered as part of the same "Church." On May 25, 1975, at Katowice, Poland, Roger Schutz made the following statement:

What we ask of the bishop of Rome [sic] is that a reconciliation come about without requiring non-Catholics to repudiate their origins. Even with truly...catholic communion in view, repudiation goes against love. Besides this, repudiation is alien to the thinking of modem man.5

Then, in Rome, during a conference held at the Studies Center of St. Louis of France on March 11, 1976, Max Thurian stated the following: "For a Protestant, belonging to the visible Church is in the order of faith [this is true], even if certain institutional aspects are excluded from it. In this sense, if a Protestant has the conviction that the Catholic Church, following the Second Vatican Council, rediscovered conformity with the apostolic Church, he can then consider himself to be a member of that Church without, however, renoucing his adherence to another ecclesial community.”6 In other words, “double membership,” as if God has revealed opposing ths. From this arises the question of whether Max Thurian converted to the Catholic Faith before being ordained a “Catholic priest” in Naples.

Had he truly converted, or was he merely convinced that it was the Catholic Church that had converted after having "rediscovered" conformity with the apostolic Church? Who knows? The community of Taizé, when asked whether Thurian had repudiated his Protestantism, responded: "No, certainly not. No abjuration of the Protestant religion took place."1a

Although Catholic authorities have been pressured to respond to this very serious and legitimate question, it has been impossible to obtain a single word from them about this matter. Moreover, the ordination performed by Card. Ursi in Naples was kept secret until May 11, 1988.

Roger Schutz and Max Thurian

21 posted on 04/18/2005 5:47:31 PM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: donbosco74
Isn't Ratzinger the one that was behind the announcement that the Jews can reject Jesus and find salvation, as they continue to wait for their own savior?

There was no such announcement.

It is contrary to the Catholic faith to consider the different religions of the world as ways of salvation complementary to the Church. ... According to Catholic doctrine, the followers of other religions are oriented to the Church and are all called to become part of her. - Cardinal Ratzinger

22 posted on 04/18/2005 5:53:09 PM PDT by gbcdoj (And the light shineth in darkness: and the darkness did not comprehend it. ~ John 1:5)
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To: Grey Ghost II
Thurian ended up publishing a broadside against the liturgical reform in the Catholic Church, right before his death, interestingly enough...
Serious mistakes have sometimes been made in certain places: the location of the altar, tabernacle, and celebrants' chairs, overpowering illumination, excessive removal of ornamentation, etc...The fact that the celebrants and faithful constantly face each other closes the liturgy in on itself. (L'Osservatore Romano, "The Liturgy and Contemplation", 24 July 1996)

23 posted on 04/18/2005 5:55:46 PM PDT by gbcdoj (And the light shineth in darkness: and the darkness did not comprehend it. ~ John 1:5)
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To: Dajjal
(LIVE THREAD) The Papal Conclave, Interregnum, Cardinals, Conclave Facts, Prayer and other links
24 posted on 04/18/2005 5:57:23 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Dajjal

As long as he isn't one of those clowns in the Pius X society.


25 posted on 04/18/2005 5:58:54 PM PDT by Clemenza (Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms: The Other Holy Trinity)
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To: gbcdoj; donbosco74

http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=5649

A 210-page document titled “The Jewish People and the Holy Scriptures in the Christian Bible,” by the Pontifical Biblical Commission and authorized by the Vatican’s top theologian, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, reportedly states that “the Jewish messianic wait is not in vain.”

It reportedly says Jews and Christians share their wait for the Messiah, although Jews are waiting for the first coming and Christians for the second.

The new document also reportedly contains an apology to the Jewish people for anti-Semitic passages contained in the New Testament, and also stresses the continuing importance of the Torah for Christians.


26 posted on 04/18/2005 6:08:14 PM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: donbosco74

But he added that when the Jews finally recognized/met their "long awaited" Messiah,they would find that He was Jesus Christ.


27 posted on 04/18/2005 6:14:30 PM PDT by saradippity
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To: saradippity
But he added that when the Jews finally recognized/met their "long awaited" Messiah,they would find that He was Jesus Christ.

Only those still living at the time.

28 posted on 04/18/2005 6:20:53 PM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: Clemenza
As long as he isn't one of those clowns in the Pius X society.

You asked for it:

29 posted on 04/18/2005 6:31:58 PM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: onyx; Knitting A Conundrum
Indeed, it is. Here in NW PA this kind of 'ecumenism' is not unheard of. Gag. I can't get the Post to load tonite, will read rest later. Contrast that with this article on Ratzinger and the Liturgy. It's hard to know what's what. The stakes are high in this one.
30 posted on 04/18/2005 6:38:15 PM PDT by fortunecookie
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To: Grey Ghost II

WTF is that! Looks like Mass at the annual Fire Island White Party, sponsored by Ringling Brothers.


31 posted on 04/18/2005 6:39:52 PM PDT by Clemenza (Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms: The Other Holy Trinity)
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To: Grey Ghost II
the Jewish messianic wait is not in vain

Duh. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, and He's coming back. "For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery (lest you should be wise in your own conceits) that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles should come in. And so all Israel should be saved, as it is written: There shall come out of Sion, he that shall deliver and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob." (Rom 11:25-26).

Of course that doesn't mean that the Jews have a valid reason to reject their Messiah, or his historical form, the Church...

Indeed, the Church, guided by charity and respect for freedom, must be primarily committed to proclaiming to all people the truth definitively revealed by the Lord, and to announcing the necessity of conversion to Jesus Christ and of adherence to the Church through Baptism and the other sacraments, in order to participate fully in communion with God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Thus, the certainty of the universal salvific will of God does not diminish, but rather increases the duty and urgency of the proclamation of salvation and of conversion to the Lord Jesus Christ. - Cardinal Ratzinger

32 posted on 04/18/2005 6:40:38 PM PDT by gbcdoj (And the light shineth in darkness: and the darkness did not comprehend it. ~ John 1:5)
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To: fortunecookie

I FR mailed the entire article to you.
At this time, I am thinking it's more of a media smear.


33 posted on 04/18/2005 6:43:50 PM PDT by onyx (Pope John Paul II - May 18, 1920 - April 2, 2005 = SANTO SUBITO!)
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To: Clemenza
WTF is that!

What it's not is an SSPX Mass, nor an SSPX "clown".

34 posted on 04/18/2005 6:46:30 PM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: onyx

It's going to be non-stop until a Pope is chosen, and won't stop if he's perceived to be the slightest bit 'conservative' (whispered, as though a bad word). Thanks for the pm. I don't know who I'd like to see, maybe Cardinal Arinze or Biffi. I missed those threads. I don't know about Cardinal Ratzinger, but I'll be reading about him with interest.


35 posted on 04/18/2005 6:46:30 PM PDT by fortunecookie
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To: fortunecookie

I haven't been able to find enough sources to know what to think...I do know that I admire Ratzinger's theological writing a whole lot. To judge a person from sites that might have their own agenda goes against my grain.

I will put it in in the hands of the Holy Spirit and pray the Rosary and Divine Mercy. God knows what he's doing.


36 posted on 04/18/2005 6:47:03 PM PDT by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: Grey Ghost II
PS: How about linking to the actual document, instead of some non-Christian paper which makes a statement like "The new document also reportedly contains an apology to the Jewish people for anti-Semitic passages contained in the New Testament". Reportedly? You could at least use an author who's actually read the thing.

And, looking at the quote:

Insistence on discontinuity between both Testaments and going beyond former perspectives should not, however, lead to a one-sided spiritualisation. What has already been accomplished in Christ must yet be accomplished in us and in the world. The definitive fulfilment will be at the end with the resurrection of the dead, a new heaven and a new earth. Jewish messianic expectation is not in vain. It can become for us Christians a powerful stimulant to keep alive the eschatological dimension of our faith. Like them, we too live in expectation. The difference is that for us the One who is to come will have the traits of the Jesus who has already come and is already present and active among us.

This looks to me like the "Jewish messianic expectation" is actually referring to the attitude maintained before the coming of Christ, and the point is that Jesus is the fulfillment of that expectation. Hardly what you implied. Another quote:

These Jews call the Christian faith into question; they do not accept that Jesus is their Messiah (Christ) and the Son of God. Christians cannot but contest the position of these Jews.

37 posted on 04/18/2005 6:48:03 PM PDT by gbcdoj (And the light shineth in darkness: and the darkness did not comprehend it. ~ John 1:5)
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To: gbcdoj
Duh. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, and He's coming back.

Per my post:"although Jews are waiting for the first coming and Christians for the second."

38 posted on 04/18/2005 6:50:34 PM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: Grey Ghost II

That's "reportedly". Quote the real passage? I've given you the link.


39 posted on 04/18/2005 6:54:24 PM PDT by gbcdoj (And the light shineth in darkness: and the darkness did not comprehend it. ~ John 1:5)
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To: gbcdoj

“Jewish messianic expectation is not in vain.”

“These Jews call the Christian faith into question; they do not accept that Jesus is their Messiah (Christ) and the Son of God. Christians cannot but contest the position of these Jews.”

Your quotes, from the same source, are quite contradictory.


40 posted on 04/18/2005 6:55:25 PM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: Grey Ghost II
Did you read my post?

This looks to me like the "Jewish messianic expectation" is actually referring to the attitude maintained before the coming of Christ, and the point is that Jesus is the fulfillment of that expectation. Hardly what you implied.

41 posted on 04/18/2005 6:56:32 PM PDT by gbcdoj (And the light shineth in darkness: and the darkness did not comprehend it. ~ John 1:5)
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To: gbcdoj

Did you read my post #40?

“Jewish messianic expectation is not in vain.”

yet,

"Christians cannot but contest the position of these Jews.”


42 posted on 04/18/2005 7:15:28 PM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: Grey Ghost II

I offered a more sensible interpretation in #37 and 41. You are unwilling to give up your private interpretation, which you admit would make the document self-contradictory, or even to attempt to justify it over the one I suggested in #37 and 41, which has the advantage that you yourself admit of avoiding a contradiction, and is perfectly plausible especially in the local context.


43 posted on 04/18/2005 8:04:46 PM PDT by gbcdoj (And the light shineth in darkness: and the darkness did not comprehend it. ~ John 1:5)
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To: Knitting A Conundrum
I do know that I admire Ratzinger's theological writing a whole lot. To judge a person from sites that might have their own agenda goes against my grain.

I've seen pro and con for him. Too much with the ecumenical Holy Communion which isn't even licit and yet his recent writings and admonitions to the other Cardinals put me in mind of Cardinal Arinze or Pope John Paul II. I will be looking for more sources, too. I'd like to think his more recent writings & teachings reflect his growth toward what our Holy Father labored for so many years to teach to us.

I will put it in in the hands of the Holy Spirit and pray the Rosary and Divine Mercy. God knows what he's doing.

EWTN listed (verbally or on their site, I don't remember) a similar recommendation and I've been praying in the same manner for the same outcome.

44 posted on 04/18/2005 8:10:23 PM PDT by fortunecookie
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To: Grey Ghost II
I'm speechless everytime I see it. Ugh.

Our Parish tried liturgical dance. Even before it was okayed. If you've seen The Music Man, it looked a lot like the scene from the movie with the older ladies dancing around the Grecian urns. It was the Feast of the Assumption and people actually walked out in disgust and anger, and laughter.

45 posted on 04/18/2005 8:15:29 PM PDT by fortunecookie
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To: gbcdoj

That post of yours made absolutely no sense, even after reading it three times.

You're the one doing the "interpreting" and "suggesting", I'm merely quoting Cardinal Ratzinger.


46 posted on 04/18/2005 8:35:17 PM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: Romulus

" Quis custodet ipsos custodes?"

Good question. This does not bode well at all.


47 posted on 04/18/2005 8:39:11 PM PDT by Kolokotronis ("Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord; keep watch over the door of my lips!" (Psalm 141:3))
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