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Restored Order of the Sacraments of Initiation? Confirmation and First Eucharist together? (Vanity)
Diocese of Fargo, ND via Our Sunday Visitor ^ | 3/1/2003 | Bishop Samuel Acquilla

Posted on 05/12/2005 12:23:48 PM PDT by sinkspur

...........6. Understanding our past often helps us better understand the needs of the present. From apostolic times until around the fifth century, the Church celebrated the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation in one continuous rite of initiation, which culminated in a Christian’s admission to the Eucharist. This practice held for persons of all ages, including children. The baptismal washing and anointing by the priest were followed by an imposition of hands and anointing by the bishop. Confirmation was seen as a natural extension of Baptism, perfecting what the Holy Spirit had accomplished in that initial sacrament. Hence, the celebration was called the double sacrament of initiation, while still two distinct sacraments (cf. CCC, nos. 1290-1291).

7. In the Middle Ages (fifth-l3th centuries), the distinction between Baptism and Confirmation grew. Due to a growing emphasis on infant Baptism and the territorial enlargement of dioceses, it became increasingly difficult for the bishop to be present to administer Confirmation in a unified rite of initiation. As a result, Baptism and First Eucharist were administered together at infancy, with a later celebration of Confirmation by the Bishop in very early childhood. As the centuries progressed, however, infant Eucharist in the West ceased, with the effect of further neglecting Confirmation. The dominant idea of Confirmation as an intensification of Baptism was supplemented with the notion of strengthening the Christian for the battle of life through the fullness of the gift of the Holy Spirit.

8. From the 13th until the 19th century, a further change occurred in the celebration of Confirmation. Although infant Baptism continued to be the norm, First Eucharist was delayed until after the age of discretion. Thus the ancient order of the three sacraments was restored but spread out in time. Confirmation was celebrated at the age of discretion (7 and above), followed by First Eucharist between the ages of 10 and 14. By the 16th century, Confirmation was celebrated between 7 and 15 years of age, followed by First Eucharist. At the close of the 19th century, the order of Confirmation before First Eucharist received papal approval.

9. The contemporary sequence of the sacraments was determined in part by Pope Pius X, who encouraged First Eucharist at the age of discretion (7 and above). This decision had the effect of placing the reception of First Eucharist before the reception of Confirmation, which would then generally occur as early as 7 and as late as 18. This order (infant Baptism, First Eucharist at the age of discretion, and Confirmation any time between 7 and 18) is the more common pastoral practice of today.

10. At the same time, various Church documents, especially the Second Vatican Council document Sacrosanctum Concilium (no. 71) and the rituals which followed it (Pope Paul VI, Apostolic Constitution on the Sacrament of Confirmation), clearly teach that the purpose of the liturgical reform of Confirmation is to restore the intimate link Confirmation has with the whole of Christian initiation. In order for that link to be clearly established, the proper and desired order of the sacraments is that of the ancient Church: Baptism, Confirmation and First Eucharist..............


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: baptism; confirmation; eucharist
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There is a great deal of discussion going on in some dioceses about restoring the proper order of the Sacraments of Initiation: Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist.

As you can read above, Fargo is one of the dioceses that is now conferring Confirmation along with First Eucharist. This conforms to the ancient practice of the Early Church and the current practice of the Eastern Churches. The revised order also emphasizes Confirmation as the completion of Baptism, rather than some adolescent rite of passage, as it is viewed in many dioceses today.

Resistance to this restoration comes from many sources. Religious Ed Directors and parents see postponing Confirmation as a way to keep adolescents involved in Church life. The downside to that is that many adolescents view Confirmation as a "graduation" from both Mass attendance and participation in the Church. Sad experience would seem to bear out this impression.

Many bishops would like to make this change, but resist upsetting the DRE's and parents.

Theologically, postponing Confirmation to adolescence leaves the mistaken impression that Confirmation is not practically one of the Sacraments of Initiation.

What are your experiences and thoughts about tying Confirmation more closely to First Eucharist, and even conferring both in the same ceremony? Or, what about, with the proper catechesis, conforming the Latin Rite practice with that of the Eastern churches?

1 posted on 05/12/2005 12:23:48 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur

I think this is an interesting proposal. I think that a late Confirmation, 10th or 11th grade, does treat Confirmation as a graduation ritual rather than as a Sacrament. It implies that the Sacrament "recognizes" a certain level of religious education, rather than "conferring" a sacramental grace, thereby devaluing the role of the Holy Spirit in the Sacrament.

On the other hand, I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of confirming very young children who have not the capacity to make a real decision to accept the Faith. I was confirmed in the Presbyterian Church when I was 10 - a little younger than usual, but I knew my Catechism, and it was convenient for my mother to have my older brother and me in the same class. Presbyterians and Lutherans are usually an early-teens confirmation, after which the young person also receives Communion.

So I guess I'm conflicted! In some ways I like it, and in others I don't!


2 posted on 05/12/2005 12:32:38 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Every day is Mother's Day when you have James the Wonder Baby!)
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To: sinkspur
What's more of a concern is restoring the proper order of first Communion and first confession.

In my diocese every child went to first Communion in 2nd grade and first confession in 3rd grade, in a ridiculous reversal of the proper order.

That's a more pressing problem than the archeological desire to bring back combined Baptism/Confirmation.

Adolescent Confirmation isn't the reason why Catholic teens stop assisting at Mass.

They stop because of poor parenting (usually a father who never goes to Mass) or poor catechizing or both.

My Confirmation instruction had absolutely nothing to do with the Church's teaching on the sacrament or the role of the Holy Spirit in the Church or anything else that was relevant. It was mostly about how it's bad to be racist, that we should all be nice to other people, etc. All things that 13 year old should have learned long before they were 13 and which have little to do with the doctrinal content of the sacrament.

3 posted on 05/12/2005 12:33:13 PM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: sinkspur
Fargo is one of the dioceses that is now conferring Confirmation along with First Eucharist. This conforms to the ancient practice of the Early Church and the current practice of the Eastern Churches.

Correction: The early Church and Eastern Churches confer Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist together, to infants, and to converting families.

4 posted on 05/12/2005 12:37:18 PM PDT by sinkspur (If you want unconditional love with skin, and hair and a warm nose, get a shelter dog.)
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To: Tax-chick
I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of confirming very young children who have not the capacity to make a real decision to accept the Faith.

This is an interesting passage in the letter:

The perfection of baptismal grace found in the Sacrament of Confirmation is not dependent upon age or knowledge of the confirmand. The grace that is conferred is a free gift and "does not need ‘ratification’ to become effective" (CCC, no. 1308). The common practice of high school or middle-school reception of Confirmation could give the impression that somehow the sacrament is merited by virtue of age or training. In truth, the Sacrament of Confirmation is an effective vehicle of grace at any age as long as it is validly conferred. Thus those that receive the sacrament are able to reap its benefits from the moment of reception. The invisible benefits of this sacrament conferred at a young age could be of great benefit to young people as they grow toward adolescence and young adulthood.

5 posted on 05/12/2005 12:39:07 PM PDT by siunevada
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To: wideawake
What's more of a concern is restoring the proper order of first Communion and first confession.

After skimming the whole letter, I get the sense that Bishop Acquilla makes it clear to his priests that the proper order is to be followed.

6 posted on 05/12/2005 12:43:47 PM PDT by siunevada
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To: Tax-chick
On the other hand, I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of confirming very young children who have not the capacity to make a real decision to accept the Faith.

I'm not sure why a child making a decision would be any more necessary with Confirmation than it is with infant baptism.

Bad practice breeds bad theology. I grew up with the notion that Confirmation made one a "soldier of Christ." Now, many catechists mistakenly compare Confirmation to a Bar or Bat Mitzvah.

The sacrament is not about us confirming the Church, but about the Church confirming us, so "understanding" the sacrament is not necessary for all the abundant graces to flow.

In addition, I continue to be surprised at the number of lapsed Catholic adults who come back to the Church who were never confirmed. And most weekly-mass-attending Catholics couldn't give you two sentences on the meaning of Confirmation.

It's been a throw-away sacrament, and giving Confirmation its proper place in the rites of initiation would at least provide an occasion for catechesis for both parents and children.

7 posted on 05/12/2005 12:52:14 PM PDT by sinkspur (If you want unconditional love with skin, and hair and a warm nose, get a shelter dog.)
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To: sinkspur
Many bishops would like to make this change, but resist upsetting the DRE's and parents.

Maybe Bishop Acqilla could give a little presentation at USCCB meetings - "Bishops and DREs - Who's In Charge Here?"; something like that.

According to his timetable, this should have been completed Spring, 2005. I wonder how it all worked out?

8 posted on 05/12/2005 12:54:46 PM PDT by siunevada
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To: sinkspur
There are some parishes nearby me who have put off first Communion until third grade. They feel the children are better catechized if they wait the extra year.

Nearly every Catholic child receives First Communion, but my understanding is CCD enrollment drops significantly after First Communion. If that is the case, I guess it is a good idea to receive the sacraments together. Many children are deprived of the extra graces available through the sacrament of Confirmation.

Either way, this is another one of those things that I imagine people feel very strongly about one way or the other, but I can see good arguments on both sides.

9 posted on 05/12/2005 12:56:06 PM PDT by old and tired
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To: siunevada

I guess ... it's just that I'm struggling with my preconceptions :-).

The Baltimore Catechism says, "Confirmation is the sacrament through which the Holy Spirit comes to us in a special way and enables us to profess our faith as strong and perfect Christians and soldiers of Jesus Christ." It seems that, even with the sacramental grace conferred, a young child lacks the natural capacity to "profess our faith as a strong and perfect Christian."

And on a related question, doesn't giving Communion to young children assume that they're going to make a good Confession the *minute* they have the capacity to choose good and avoid evil? Obviously, if they have been baptized, they are free from sin until the age of accountability ... but there's a fuzzy zone there, isn't there?


10 posted on 05/12/2005 12:56:49 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Every day is Mother's Day when you have James the Wonder Baby!)
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To: Tax-chick; sinkspur

Don't Eastern Rite Catholics get confirmed at Baptism?


11 posted on 05/12/2005 12:57:51 PM PDT by old and tired
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To: old and tired
When this is discussed with parents of prospective first communicants, the first thing out of the mouths of parents (mothers, mostly) is "If you confer Confirmation now, how am I going to get my kid to religious ed classes?"
12 posted on 05/12/2005 12:59:11 PM PDT by sinkspur (If you want unconditional love with skin, and hair and a warm nose, get a shelter dog.)
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To: old and tired

I think so, but don't quote me.


13 posted on 05/12/2005 12:59:32 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Every day is Mother's Day when you have James the Wonder Baby!)
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To: sinkspur; siunevada

Our parish just finished with the First Communions. The DRE said that one parent asked, "Now when do we have to bring her back to start classes for Confirmation?" Aaagh!

Some people are just not going to Get It, no matter what.


14 posted on 05/12/2005 1:01:02 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Every day is Mother's Day when you have James the Wonder Baby!)
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To: sinkspur
I'm not sure why a child making a decision would be any more necessary with Confirmation than it is with infant baptism.

Bingo! The efficacy of the Sacraments comes from Christ working through them. A Baptized, then Confirmed (Chrysmated) person has the permament "marks" of these sacraments in their soul for the rest of eternity. In baptising infants it is understood that they will be formed in the Faith by their families and the Church as they grow. If this would not appear to be the case, then the sacraments should be withheld until the individual is capable of choosing to live the Christian Faith.

That is why the Eastern Churches have no problem in Baptizing, Chrysmating, and then giving first Holy Communion to infants in their Churches.

By waiting so long to give the sacrament of Confirmation to adolescents in the Church today the practical effect tends to be that so many never receive it. Furthermore, the young adolescents-young adults are lacking the Grace that comes from the sacrament during a very "testing" time in their lives.

15 posted on 05/12/2005 1:05:21 PM PDT by TotusTuus (Christos Voskrese!)
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To: sinkspur

While this is the ancient practice of the East, and many orthodox priests and bishops have advocated its eventual return, or at least closing the gap (some dioceses confirm at age 7 now), my gut instinct tells me this will be just another change that will further confuse the lay faithful with all the myriad of changes since the Second Vatican Council.

I support a moratorium on any further liturgical or sacramental changes in the Church for the next 100 years. This would be included in such a moratorium. If the "reform of the reformers" want to continue to pursue their agenda to get the Sacred Liturgy back into conformity with the letter of Sacrosactum Concilium, I am for that as well.

Continuous change, even when it is change for the better, is the mark of revolutionaries. Enough is enough already!

Pray for a universal indult to all Latin-rite priests for the Classical Roman rite of Mass. Then, the real "renewal" (restoration!) will begin.


16 posted on 05/12/2005 1:28:57 PM PDT by Mershon
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To: Tax-chick
I guess ... it's just that I'm struggling with my preconceptions :-).

Yeah. I was going to say something in the earlier post about postponing Eucharist for the same reason. There's that whole bringing judgement on yourself thing from 1 Cor 11. Yikes!

The Baltimore Catechism goes on to say:
Persons of an age to learn should know the chief mysteries of faith and the duties of a Christian, and be instructed in the nature and effects of this Sacrament.

I think we can say that a young child has the ability to "profess our faith as a strong and perfect Christian" in accord with their intellect and their station in life.

Personally, I wasn't very clear at age 13 about what was really going on at Confirmation; but, something definitely happened. Maybe it took several decades to manifest but it happened.

17 posted on 05/12/2005 1:31:46 PM PDT by siunevada
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To: Mershon
While this is the ancient practice of the East, and many orthodox priests and bishops have advocated its eventual return, or at least closing the gap (some dioceses confirm at age 7 now), my gut instinct tells me this will be just another change that will further confuse the lay faithful with all the myriad of changes since the Second Vatican Council.

Bishops have the discretion to implement this restoration, and many are doing it. More will.

There is really no theological basis for the Baptism, Eucharist, Confirmation-much-later order of today. I don't see how the faithful could possibly be any more confused than they are now. Adding Confirmation to the same ceremony with First Eucharist, and postponing both to third grade is de minimis as far as disruption goes.

Continuous change, even when it is change for the better, is the mark of revolutionaries.

Got a buggywhip handy?

18 posted on 05/12/2005 1:35:54 PM PDT by sinkspur (If you want unconditional love with skin, and hair and a warm nose, get a shelter dog.)
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To: sinkspur

I had my first communion at 8 and was confirmed at 14. I don't remember much of the parish CCD preparation we had for first communion. We did have to make first confession beforehand, which is a small miracle considering the liberal priest who ran the parish at the time. I do remember CCD prep for confirmation, and it was a big joke. I learned nothing about what the sacrament really meant. The classes were very secular; quite similar to the "self-esteem" and "setting goals" lessons I was subjected to in my public middle school.

Confirmation was very much treated as a rite of passage/graduation type thing in my parish. Of the 70 or so kids who were confirmed that year, maybe 10 regularly attended Mass with their families. It didn't matter if you couldn't care less about religion or if your parents felt the same - when you turned 14, it was just what you did.

CCD stopped once you were confirmed in the parish. This meant that the gap between first communion and confirmation guaranteed that some of these kids would be in CCD for 6 extra years. Had first communion and confirmation been celebrated at the same time, many of these kids would have stopped going to CCD at 8. However, this really wouldn't have been that bad, since CCD was an abysmal waste of time at my old parish.


19 posted on 05/12/2005 1:46:01 PM PDT by sassbox
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To: sinkspur
"If you confer Confirmation now, how am I going to get my kid to religious ed classes?"

If children are properly brought up, they will go because their parents tell them to. In addition, if the RE program is well done, they will *want* to go because it's interesting and fun.

I really have no resonance with this issue, because our family does an hour or more of Bible and catechism study every day. In addition, the older children listen to religious instruction tapes, because they want to. We like to learn; we like to learn about our faith.

20 posted on 05/12/2005 2:02:42 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Every day is Mother's Day when you have James the Wonder Baby!)
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To: Tax-chick
If children are properly brought up, they will go because their parents tell them to. In addition, if the RE program is well done, they will *want* to go because it's interesting and fun.

I'm convinced that the Catholic Church has it backwards:

We teach children and play with adults, when we ought to be playing more with children, and teaching adults.

21 posted on 05/12/2005 2:05:24 PM PDT by sinkspur (If you want unconditional love with skin, and hair and a warm nose, get a shelter dog.)
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To: sinkspur

I agree with you there. It's unusual for Catholic adults to participate in ongoing religious education, while it's the norm for Protestant churches to have religious instruction for all age levels. (And not just during the "school year," either!)


22 posted on 05/12/2005 2:09:00 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Every day is Mother's Day when you have James the Wonder Baby!)
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To: siunevada

I agree with what you've posted ... it just "feels" funny!

I also agree with another post which pointed out that the current system in most dioceses deprives teenagers of the sacramental graces of Confirmation at a time in life when they really need it.


23 posted on 05/12/2005 2:11:26 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Every day is Mother's Day when you have James the Wonder Baby!)
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To: sinkspur

change. change. change. change. change. change. change. change.

I wonder where the erroneous philsophical idea of positivism comes from?

change. change. change. change. change. change. change. change. change. change. change.

Nationalistic churches separated by languages, dioceses and who one's bishop is...

What does this sound like? Hmm.... The Orthodox (whose congregations are NOT growing!) perhaps?

change. change. change. change. change. change. change. change. change. change. change. change. change. change.


24 posted on 05/12/2005 2:17:53 PM PDT by Mershon
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To: Mershon
Continuous change, even when it is change for the better, is the mark of revolutionaries.

The main reason some people oppose even beneficial change is that they didn't think of it first.

25 posted on 05/12/2005 2:21:37 PM PDT by sinkspur (If you want unconditional love with skin, and hair and a warm nose, get a shelter dog.)
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To: Tax-chick
I also agree with another post which pointed out that the current system in most dioceses deprives teenagers of the sacramental graces of Confirmation at a time in life when they really need it.

Scott Hahn has also pointed that out.

As you know, my son was just confirmed at age 14. That's a good age; it makes it kind of like a Catholic bar mitzvah. (In commemoration of the event, we've started letting him lead family prayers on occasion.)

On the downside, they have this dumb idea that the 8th graders have to do "service hours" in order to get confirmed: IOW, they have to do good works to merit the undeserved grace of the sacrament! I don't mind requiring the 8th grade kids to do service hours, but making it prerequisite for the sacrament is ... well, let's just say it would really make St. Paul mad. :-)

I was confirmed at 16, which was too late. The bigger issue, rather than moving the age of confirmation around, is to make religious education substantive, interesting, and useful ... instead of the substance-free pablum that I was fed. My kids are getting better treatment, but it's still not what it could be.

26 posted on 05/12/2005 2:26:03 PM PDT by Campion (Truth is not determined by a majority vote -- Pope Benedict XVI)
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

To: old and tired
Don't Eastern Rite Catholics get confirmed at Baptism?

Yes, and at the discretion of our Bishop, they receive Holy Communion as well.

28 posted on 05/12/2005 2:44:20 PM PDT by TotusTuus (Christos Voskrese!)
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To: Campion

Interesting! I don't know whether our parish requires community service for Confirmation, but I'm pretty sure the one in Oklahoma (Confirmation in the 11th grade!) did.

The Seton School newsletter has mentioned this issue, but they didn't bring up the theological absurdity!


29 posted on 05/12/2005 2:52:37 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Every day is Mother's Day when you have James the Wonder Baby!)
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To: sinkspur
And most weekly-mass-attending Catholics couldn't give you two sentences on the meaning of Confirmation.

It's been a throw-away sacrament, and giving Confirmation its proper place in the rites of initiation would at least provide an occasion for catechesis for both parents and children.

Yes, the separate - but related - problem of broken down catechesis. Here's a starting point for catechesis of what this sacrament is. From the Acts of the Apostles:

"Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Sama'ria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit."

30 posted on 05/12/2005 3:13:28 PM PDT by TotusTuus (Christos Voskrese!)
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To: sinkspur
"...the first thing out of the mouths of parents (mothers, mostly) is "If you confer Confirmation now, how am I going to get my kid to religious ed classes?"

Just out of curiosity, do you also offer parenting coarses? Apparently many of the people you work with need support in the understanding of what it means to be a parent!

31 posted on 05/12/2005 3:21:13 PM PDT by TotusTuus (Christos Voskrese!)
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To: sinkspur

"The early Church and Eastern Churches confer Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist together, to infants, and to converting families."

Right you are as to infants and as to those who have not been baptised by water and in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. For baptised converts from Roman Catholicism or one of the protestant "ecclesial assemblies", its Chrismation (Confirmation) and the Eucharist.


32 posted on 05/12/2005 3:30:50 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: sinkspur

I am not sure I agree with this move. Although the three sacraments are tied together in RCIA (which I teach, and I see it works there), I don't think it is necessarily appropriate to recombine them for children, as the ancient Church did. One of the purposes of Confirmation is to be able to offer a defense of the faith. Considering children receive Holy Eucharist at about 3rd grade, I find it unlikely, given the current state of catechesis of the child (and the parents), that he will be able to do so. Perhaps in days gone by, but not now. Our culture today bombards our children with the opposite message that the Church puts out. Confirmation classes give the thinking teen an opportunity to combat society with an effectively given message of Jesus Christ.

While some parents see Confirmation as a "rite of passage", they are missing the point of the sacrament. They themselves need to consider returning to the Church and brush up on their sacramental theology.

Actually, our Church needs to seriously address getting out the message better and reminding adults that we are all called to Christ's Church and a response is in order. We don't hear that message very often.

Regards


33 posted on 05/12/2005 3:35:45 PM PDT by jo kus
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To: Mershon

Ya know, change in certain areas (not dogma, of course) isn't always good or bad. Besides, if we trust the Holy Spirit is guiding the Magisterium, and we do or should, as I understand things, then shouldn't we trust them enough to see changes such as the ones prescribed in action?

Granted I'm new to all of this with a LOT to learn--but I still love a good argument:)


34 posted on 05/12/2005 4:19:14 PM PDT by TheStickman (If a moron becomes senile how can you tell?)
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To: sinkspur; american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; ...
What are your experiences and thoughts about tying Confirmation more closely to First Eucharist, and even conferring both in the same ceremony? Or, what about, with the proper catechesis, conforming the Latin Rite practice with that of the Eastern churches?

The following thread, devoted specifically to this Sacrament, was posted by kjvail on May 7.

It is a MUST read!

"The sacraments of Christian initiation — Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist — lay the foundations of every Christian life. 'The sharing in the divine nature given to men through the grace of Christ bears a certain likeness to the origin, development, and nourishing of natural life. The faithful are born anew by Baptism, strengthened by the sacrament of Confirmation, and receive in the Eucharist the food of eternal life. By means of these sacraments of Christian initiation, they thus receive in increasing measure the treasures of the divine life and advance toward the perfection of charity.'
(Catechism of the Catholic Church #1212)

It is from the Catholic Educator's Resource and, as the author notes, the Sacrament of Confirmation is actually the Sacrament of Strengthening.

One of the most egregious decisions ever made by the USCCB was to extend reception of this sacrament until the teen years, and then make it optional. Teens, especially, need the strength gained from reception of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in order to make the decision to receive it.

My mother received both the Sacrament of Holy Eucharist and Confirmation only weeks apart. When I was growing up, we received First Communion in 2nd grade and Confirmation in 6th or 7th grade (the bishop only came once every 2 years). My daughter was scheduled to receive Confirmation in 11th grade but dropped out only weeks before the end of classes. This was a painful experience that no parent should ever have to endure. With much coaxing and reassurance, she completed the program in 12th grade and was finally confirmed.

The 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit are like seeds planted into fertile soil. These blossom, oftentimes later in life, when needed. No child should be denied these gifts!

The Maronite Catholic Church administers the Sacraments of Baptism and Chrismation at the same time. First Communion, as in the Latin Rite, is administered in 2nd grade, following 2 years of preparation. This is as it should be.

Please take some time to read through this lengthy but important description of the Sacrament of Confirmation. Bookmark the thread! It is one you will refer back to repeatedly.

Sacrament of Confirmation: Knighthood in the Kingdom Family of God

35 posted on 05/12/2005 4:19:27 PM PDT by NYer ("Love without truth is blind; Truth without love is empty." - Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: sinkspur
Bad practice breeds bad theology. I grew up with the notion that Confirmation made one a "soldier of Christ." Now, many catechists mistakenly compare Confirmation to a Bar or Bat Mitzvah.

All of this is addressed at the link in my previous post!

36 posted on 05/12/2005 4:23:21 PM PDT by NYer ("Love without truth is blind; Truth without love is empty." - Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: old and tired
Don't Eastern Rite Catholics get confirmed at Baptism?

Yes - if they're Maronite. Don't know about the others but presume it is the same with the other Eastern Catholic Churches.

37 posted on 05/12/2005 4:27:28 PM PDT by NYer ("Love without truth is blind; Truth without love is empty." - Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: Tax-chick

I was Confirmed and First Communion the same Sunday in the Episcopal Church in 1972, when I was 12. It has never made sense to me to do it any other way.

Of course today the piskies will give it to anybody. It's an "open table" like the Methodists and the Presbys, though they don't announce it. That's part of the reason I'm going Catholic. RCIA starting this fall, Catholic Church starting this Sunday, and I think I'm just going to start self-identifying as a Catholic because I've been one in my heart for a long time.


38 posted on 05/12/2005 4:28:54 PM PDT by johnb838 (Free Republicans... To Arms!)
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To: Tax-chick

BTW I had gone through three months of catechism before I was Confirmed. I may have been 12, but I was ready.


39 posted on 05/12/2005 4:29:53 PM PDT by johnb838 (Free Republicans... To Arms!)
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To: NYer

"The Maronite Catholic Church administers the Sacraments of Baptism and Chrismation at the same time. First Communion, as in the Latin Rite, is administered in 2nd grade, following 2 years of preparation. This is as it should be."

No it isn't! :) Seriously, ask the abouna when the Maronites stopped giving communion right after baptism and chrismation. I think you'll find that is a Latinization of, in Church time, relatively recent origin.


40 posted on 05/12/2005 4:33:33 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: sinkspur
Popes see things not visible to other mortal men (like us bloggers). When a Pope called on Catholic youth to receive the Holy Eucharist at a young age, how many souls were saved because of this move when decades later lives were ripped apart from two World Wars and immensely powerful tyrannies?

Confirmation will help elevate our awareness of the presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist. The Sacramental Life brings us closer and closer to Christ. I have faith that our spiritual shepherds will lovingly tend to us as the Church will not fail.
41 posted on 05/12/2005 4:41:42 PM PDT by SaltyJoe (The anticipation is terrible...I hope it lasts!)
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To: Kolokotronis
Pius X seems to speak very approvingly of the ancient practice in 1910

The Catholic Church, bearing this in mind, took care even from the beginning to bring the little ones to Christ through Eucharistic Communion, which was administered even to nursing infants. This, as was prescribed in almost all ancient Ritual books, was done at Baptism until the thirteenth century, and this custom prevailed in some places even later. It is still found in the Greek and Oriental Churches. But to remove the danger that infants might eject the Consecrated Host, the custom obtained from the beginning of administering the Eucharist to them under the species of wine only.

Infants, however, not only at the time of Baptism, but also frequently thereafter were admitted to the sacred repast. In some churches it was the custom to give the Eucharist to the children immediately after the clergy; in others, the small fragments which remained after the Communion of the adults were given to the children.

Quam Singulari.

42 posted on 05/12/2005 4:43:00 PM PDT by sinkspur (If you want unconditional love with skin, and hair and a warm nose, get a shelter dog.)
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To: johnb838

That's very similar to my experience in the Presbyterian Church. And I also "self-identified" as Catholic before I'd actually gone through the formalities. Our pastor was very surprised when my husband and I and our daughter turned up for RCIA, since I was in the choir, lector, and altar society!

It was just obviously the right place to be, the first time I went to Mass. Like a brick upside the head from the Holy Spirit! That said, I never denigrate what I received from my upbringing as a Protestant ... the Bible, the hymns, the fatalism. My mother still sometimes jokes that I'm a Calvinist at heart, although my parents are grateful for all the Catholic grandchildren!


43 posted on 05/12/2005 4:43:24 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Every day is Mother's Day when you have James the Wonder Baby!)
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To: Kolokotronis; GipperGal; sandyeggo
No it isn't! :) Seriously, ask the abouna when the Maronites stopped giving communion right after baptism and chrismation. I think you'll find that is a Latinization of, in Church time, relatively recent origin.

While the Maronite Church did adopt many of the Latin Rite aspects, they recently restored administration of the Sacrament of Chrismation at the same time as Baptism. As for Holy Eucharist, knowing our Abouna, I am fairly confident that he supports it being received later, as opposed to sooner. From various discussions with the Abouna, I have understood that the Maronites have enjoyed an excellent rapport with the Romans and find no fault in applying their formulas.

44 posted on 05/12/2005 4:44:09 PM PDT by NYer ("Love without truth is blind; Truth without love is empty." - Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: SaltyJoe
Popes see things not visible to other mortal men

Perhaps, but let's not get carried away with this notion.

45 posted on 05/12/2005 4:44:18 PM PDT by sinkspur (If you want unconditional love with skin, and hair and a warm nose, get a shelter dog.)
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To: sinkspur

Interesting; thank-you. The part about giving the infants only the consecrated wine lest they spit up the Host is fascinating. As you know, we receive the Eucharist under both species, using leavened bread and from a golden spoon. The consecrated bread, having been in the wine in the chalice, is so soft that even a small infant can handle it. As a matter of curiosity, when did the Latin Church begin using unleavened bread in the Eucharist? I can see what the Pope was talking about with an unleavened Host.


46 posted on 05/12/2005 4:51:01 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
is so soft that even a small infant can handle it.

You haven't seen James when he finds a lump in his cereal ... and he's almost 1-1/2. But he loves wine!

47 posted on 05/12/2005 4:55:17 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Every day is Mother's Day when you have James the Wonder Baby!)
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To: Tax-chick
###"Now when do we have to bring her back to start classes for Confirmation?" Aaagh!"###

It is a case of blind leading the blind. I feel sorry for the kids as their parents are no more catechized than the children.

I taught CCD high schoolers, well after they made confirmation. This of course was back in the late 1950s early 1960s and there was some semblance of teaching at home and in the schools.

I also taught for 1 year a confirmation class in the mid 1970s and I received no Church material. I was left on my own but at least the Holy Spirit was with me to relay His truths to the kids. We even had a pizza party after the year was over.

What a difference in these generations.
48 posted on 05/12/2005 5:12:34 PM PDT by franky (Pray for the souls of the faithful departed.)
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To: NYer
While the Maronite Church did adopt many of the Latin Rite aspects, they recently restored administration of the Sacrament of Chrismation at the same time as Baptism. As for Holy Eucharist, knowing our Abouna, I am fairly confident that he supports it being received later, as opposed to sooner. From various discussions with the Abouna, I have understood that the Maronites have enjoyed an excellent rapport with the Romans and find no fault in applying their formulas.

As a Maronite, I was confirmed and baptized at the same time and so was everyone else in my family. This caused only a few complications later on when I attended a latin rite parochial school. I studied with the other kids as they prepared for confirmation. I even participated in the confirmation ceremony, but instead of "confirming" me, the latin rite bishop simply gave me a blessing. It all felt rather pro forma at the time and nothing special. The signifigance of confirmation really only struck me later in life when I first witnessed my oldest nephew be baptized and confirmed in the Maronite rite. It was/is a beautiful ceremony -- complete with candle processions and prayers invoking the saints and prophets and the patriarchs of old.

A priest friend (latin rite)who is now the chancellor for the arch diocese I grew up in was telling me that the Pope (JPII at the time) had a special fondness for the Maronites and was adamant that they be able to maintain their rite and not have their children baptized in the latin rite.

49 posted on 05/12/2005 5:18:29 PM PDT by GipperGal
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To: franky

I taught 9th graders (pre-confirmation) about 3 years ago. I was amazed at how little they knew. They weren't even familiar with the Gospel stories (and most of them couldn't read worth a darn, either!)

However, they were teachable. They were fascinated by the church history material I brought in, how the early Church were literally killing one another over the definitions in the Nicene Creed, and the loved they modern persecution stories from Voice of the Martyrs (especially when we sat on the floor in the dark to read about it), and they participated in prayer exercises with enthusiasm.

Today's teenagers aren't a loss by any means, but they need teachers who are passionate about the Faith and materials with some blood-and-guts and life-and-death emphasis.


50 posted on 05/12/2005 5:21:37 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Every day is Mother's Day when you have James the Wonder Baby!)
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