Peter’s Primacy

Catholic Exchange ^ | May 13, 2005 | Fr. William Saunders

[NYer]

Fr. Saunders is pastor of Our Lady of Hope Parish in Potomac Falls and a professor of catechetics and theology at Notre Dame Graduate School in Alexandria. If you enjoy reading Fr. Saunders' work, his new book entitled Straight Answers (400 pages) is available at the Pauline Book and Media Center of Arlington, Virginia (703/549-3806).

[NYer]

Ping!

[CouncilofTrent]

I think this thread is going to be hijacked by Protestants. But that's my opinion.

[mike182d]

It amazes me how some people existing 2000 years after the death and resurrection of Christ feel that their opinion on what really happened is somehow more accurate than the opinion of those who lived and lead the Church through the first couple centuries. I mean, how can you legitimately argue against the Church Fathers?

Very excellent post, NYer.

[Knitting A Conundrum]

You are probably right, but it is an excellent article.

For me as a convert, that succession from the apostles was a determining factor in why I became Catholic.

But then, for some, it is a stumbling block.

[okokie]

I mean, how can you legitimately argue against the Church Fathers?

They argue against the church fathers because of PRIDE...

[murphE]

It amazes me how some people existing 2000 years after the death and resurrection of Christ feel that their opinion on what really happened is somehow more accurate than the opinion of those who lived and lead the Church through the first couple centuries. I mean, how can you legitimately argue against the Church Fathers?

What Fathers of the Church? You mean those cavemen with their archaic thinking? Pul-lease! Don't you know we are so much more enlightened now, so much more evolved! [sarcasm]

[FatherofFive]

"I mean, how can you legitimately argue against the Church Fathers?"

One other passage I like to use is from from John 21:21-24 “Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you. And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

There was one other time in the Bible that God breathed on man - when God breathed life into Adam. This was something very special. Christ was creating his priesthood, and clearly giving this priesthood special gifts. These gifts could not have been intended to die with the Apostles, unless Christ was planning a very quick return.

[SaltyJoe]

Ever since Jesus first met Simon son of John, the two have been joking around with each other.

"You are 'Rock,' and on this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

It's well established that Jesus surfs. Long before Polynesian islanders were stepping on boards in front of a breaking wave, Jesus had walked on water. Jesus also dubbed the first surfing newbie with a surfer name: "Rock". It's a name that describes Simon's surfing style and floating characteristics.

How am I so sure of Jesus' unique sense of humor? Maybe because it takes a mariner to understand how funny it is to be so tired that a simple suggestion for brilliant improvement sounds hilarious.

Picture some fishermen doing back breaking work all night with nothing to show for it. While they're exhausted, some land lubber wants a seafood snack. The idea that casting nets "on the other side" to me comes off as hilarious.

I've been exhausted with barely anything to show for it. I might complain about my being tired to someone I hope would be empathetic to my bruised ego. Instead of their letting me indulge in self-pity, they return a wise crack to make me laugh at myself. It's real blue collar humor.

Equivalent: Isn't it obvious that you didn't catch any fish because you were fishing on the wrong side?

What lends more humor to the story is Simon's willingness to entertain Jesus. He was probably thinking, "Oh, I like this guy. He knows how to bust my ribs and get away with it." And without a second thought, he orders the others to cast their nets...on the other side of the boat.

Miracles are funny. Sometimes they are meant for us to laugh out loud at ourselves especially when we are worried and exhausted.

[wagglebee]

If this thread were hijacked by traditional Protestants (Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc.) it could turn into a very interesting and informative exchange of ideas. However, having spent the last three days arguing with anti-Catholic BIGOTS about Mary (The Mother of the Son: The Case for Marian Devotion), I have an idea that that is what will be here. I for one have "lost the stomach" for arguing with people who have no true understanding of what they even believe, much less a real understanding of what Catholicism is.

[Knitting A Conundrum]

That's why it's useful to ignore people who are trying to hijack the topic in a thread. Don't even start a conversation with them, and go on to the next person who has something reasonable to say.

[dangus]

Let's not forget, either, Peter was reconciled to Jesus. Jesus, "The Good Shepherd," told Peter to "shepherd my sheep." Yes, in Greek, the word used is the same root as "shepherd."

Or that every list of the disciples begins with "Peter, Primus." This can be translated as "Peter first," chronologically, but Peter was NOT first chronologically. Every depiction of the call of the first disciples includes others being called before Peter. No, Peter was the Primate of the early church.

Also, Peter is referred to in the gospels nearly twice as often as all other apostles combined. Luke-Acts goes for twenty chapters mentionning none of the eleven other than with Peter. In several instances, other disciples are depcted even asking Jesus questions through Peter.

[syriacus]

If the early leaders of the Church, Christ's contemporaries, didn't believe Christ established the Papacy, why would they have selected successors to Peter?

[wagglebee]

Unfortunately, I posted something early on in the other thread and the ignorant ones started posting to me. Unwisely, I chose to defend Catholic tradition rather than ignore them.

[NYer]

If the early leaders of the Church, Christ's contemporaries, didn't believe Christ established the Papacy, why would they have selected successors to Peter?

Is this a rhetorical question? They did believe and picked successors .. all the way up to the present.

[Knitting A Conundrum]

A lot of people use these things not as learning experiences, but as a way to justify their viewpoints. Their minds are made up, they are just re-enforcing the same old arguments, pulling out the same proof verses and arguments they were raised with, running them over in their heads like a mantra. That's why I don't argue. I will answer legit questions, but once past that point, I just tune it out.

[tlRCta]

"Unwisely, I chose to defend Catholic tradition rather than ignore them."

I thought you (and the others) did well on the other thread. It is--if I am not mistaken--one of the Spiritual Works of Mercy to instruct others (please correct me if I am wrong).

[NYer]

That's why it's useful to ignore people who are trying to hijack the topic in a thread.

Well not so quick there. Out of fairness, one should always offer a response to an honest question. If that individual ignores the rationale or circumnavigates it, then it's a different situation.

[NYer]

In several instances, other disciples are depcted even asking Jesus questions through Peter.

A precursor to saintly intercession ... ;-D

[Kolokotronis]

Aw, come on WB, you gave as good as you got on that thread. Frankly, we Orthodox were rather proud of the reasoned restraint with which the overwhelming number of our Latin cousins, yourself included, dealt with the heterodox there! :)

Truth be told, there really isn't any point in going far into a discussion with "proof texters". They simply do not believe or live the same Faith that Rome and Orthodoxy do. Even their idea of "sinlessness" is different from ours and that goes a long way to understanding why they have such a problem with the Most Holy Theotokos. Certainly there are great differences between Orthodoxy and the Holy Roman Church, but they are nothing compared to the gulf between Reformed Protestantism and its spin offs and The Church. Don't let it bother you.