Posted on 05/23/2005 9:09:48 AM PDT by NYer
"We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat."
"Take, and eat, every one of you, for THIS IS MY BODY, which will be given up for you"
"Christ our Passover is sacrificed, THEREFORE LET US KEEP THE FEAST"
The truth is staring you in the face, but you will have none of it.
As long as it's not an RC "priest" offering Jesus to the Father, because I will have none of that, it sounds like the Lord's supper to me.
To people who don't understand that the one sacrifice for our sins by Our Lord can be represented over and over again at every Mass, I always try to explain that God exists outside of time, therefore the laws of time and space don't necessary apply to the Sacrifice on the cross.
Think of it this way: if the definition of time is; a measurement of the interval between events, then before there were any events, before the universe existed, there was no time. Only God existed. That's what I mean when I say that God exists outside of time. Like you said, Jesus always exists in the present. To paraphrase what Our Lord said in responding to the accusations of the Pharisees (although I can't remember where he said it) "before Abraham existed, I Am"
Yes, Yes, I know that when the Word became flesh, God the Son entered into the fullness of time. But since God the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, and therefore exists outside of time and always exists in the present, even though He is one person, shouldn't his sacrifice also be continually made present when it is presented in the Mass even though it is only one Sacrifice?
In still trying to figure this out, so please feel free to let me know where this is wrong, illogical, or just plain heretical :)
It sounds like the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to me.
By the way, the word "priest" comes from the Greek presbyter or elder, so unless you've blacked out big parts of 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus, you have "elders" = "priests" in your Bible, too.
This is what a lot of us try to understand ourselves, it helps to explain the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to another person.
One last post (been away from the computer for awhile) from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
V. THE SACRAMENTAL SACRIFICE THANKSGIVING, MEMORIAL, PRESENCE
1356 If from the beginning Christians have celebrated the Eucharist and in a form whose substance has not changed despite the great diversity of times and liturgies, it is because we know ourselves to be bound by the command the Lord gave on the eve of his Passion: "Do this in remembrance of me."[181]
1357 We carry out this command of the Lord by celebrating the memorial of his sacrifice. In so doing, we offer to the Father what he has himself given us: the gifts of his creation, bread and wine which, by the power of the Holy Spirit and by the words of Christ, have become the body and blood of Christ. Christ is thus really and mysteriously made present.
1358 We must therefore consider the Eucharist as: - thanksgiving and praise to the Father;
- the sacrificial memorial of Christ and his Body;
- the presence of Christ by the power of his word and of his Spirit.
Thanksgiving and praise to the Father
1359 The Eucharist, the sacrament of our salvation accomplished by Christ on the cross, is also a sacrifice of praise in thanksgiving for the work of creation. In the Eucharistic sacrifice the whole of creation loved by God is presented to the Father through the death and the Resurrection of Christ. Through Christ the Church can offer the sacrifice of praise in thanksgiving for all that God has made good, beautiful, and just in creation and in humanity.
1360 The Eucharist is a sacrifice of thanksgiving to the Father, a blessing by which the Church expresses her gratitude to God for all his benefits, for all that he has accomplished through creation, redemption, and sanctification. Eucharist means first of all "thanksgiving."
1361 The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of praise by which the Church sings the glory of God in the name of all creation. This sacrifice of praise is possible only through Christ: he unites the faithful to his person, to his praise, and to his intercession, so that the sacrifice of praise to the Father is offered through Christ and with him, to be accepted in him.
The sacrificial memorial of Christ and of his Body, the Church
1362 The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the making present and the sacramental offering of his unique sacrifice, in the liturgy of the Church which is his Body. In all the Eucharistic Prayers we find after the words of institution a prayer called the anamnesis or memorial.
1363 In the sense of Sacred Scripture the memorial is not merely the recollection of past events but the proclamation of the mighty works wrought by God for men.[182] In the liturgical celebration of these events, they become in a certain way present and real. This is how Israel understands its liberation from Egypt: every time Passover is celebrated, the Exodus events are made present to the memory of believers so that they may conform their lives to them.
1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ's Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present.[183] "As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which 'Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed' is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out."[184]
1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: "This is my body which is given for you" and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."[185] In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."[186]
1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:
[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.[187]
1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner."[188]
1368 The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire. She unites herself to his intercession with the Father for all men. In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ and with his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ's sacrifice present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of Christians to be united with his offering.
In the catacombs the Church is often represented as a woman in prayer, arms outstretched in the praying position. Like Christ who stretched out his arms on the cross, through him, with him, and in him, she offers herself and intercedes for all men.
1369 The whole Church is united with the offering and intercession of Christ. Since he has the ministry of Peter in the Church, the Pope is associated with every celebration of the Eucharist, wherein he is named as the sign and servant of the unity of the universal Church. The bishop of the place is always responsible for the Eucharist, even when a priest presides; the bishop's name is mentioned to signify his presidency over the particular Church, in the midst of his presbyterium and with the assistance of deacons. The community intercedes also for all ministers who, for it and with it, offer the Eucharistic sacrifice:
Let only that Eucharist be regarded as legitimate, which is celebrated under [the presidency of] the bishop or him to whom he has entrusted it.[189]
Through the ministry of priests the spiritual sacrifice of the faithful is completed in union with the sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests' hands in the name of the whole Church in an unbloody and sacramental manner until the Lord himself comes.[190]
1370 To the offering of Christ are united not only the members still here on earth, but also those already in the glory of heaven. In communion with and commemorating the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, the Church offers the Eucharistic sacrifice. In the Eucharist the Church is as it were at the foot of the cross with Mary, united with the offering and intercession of Christ.
1371 The Eucharistic sacrifice is also offered for the faithful departed who "have died in Christ but are not yet wholly purified,"[191] so that they may be able to enter into the light and peace of Christ:
Put this body anywhere! Don't trouble yourselves about it! I simply ask you to remember me at the Lord's altar wherever you are.[192]
Then, we pray [in the anaphora] for the holy fathers and bishops who have fallen asleep, and in general for all who have fallen asleep before us, in the belief that it is a great benefit to the souls on whose behalf the supplication is offered, while the holy and tremendous Victim is present.... By offering to God our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, if they have sinned, we . . . offer Christ sacrificed for the sins of all, and so render favorable, for them and for us, the God who loves man.[193]
1372 St. Augustine admirably summed up this doctrine that moves us to an ever more complete participation in our Redeemer's sacrifice which we celebrate in the Eucharist:
This wholly redeemed city, the assembly and society of the saints, is offered to God as a universal sacrifice by the high priest who in the form of a slave went so far as to offer himself for us in his Passion, to make us the Body of so great a head.... Such is the sacrifice of Christians: "we who are many are one Body in Christ" The Church continues to reproduce this sacrifice in the sacrament of the altar so well-known to believers wherein it is evident to them that in what she offers she herself is offered.[194]
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/euch1.html
Priests and elders are two totally different things.
A mass without a sacrifice is not a mass. With the advent of the Novus Ordo, where the sacrifice, by definition of a sacrament, is at least doubtful, it is our responsibility to go and teach those that attend the NO mass. Print out the definition of a sacrament and the changes in the words of consecration. Go to your NO parishes and hand out at least 100 to the laity-leave them on cars, in the church, hand them out , it is our responsbility to educate, those that attend dont know any better. We need to bring back morality and faith to our catholic bretheren and exit from the horrors of Vatican II and all that it has brought us
That's probably true and it's just fine and dandy, the bible never called for a mass nor for a sacrifice from Christians.
And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you. - Luke 22: 19-20
Yes, remembrance, not an sacrifice unless you count the offering of your time to do it.
"the bible never called for a mass nor for a sacrifice from Christians."
Biblewonk, for a guy who has read the Bible so much, how could you write that, esp. the second part?
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living SACRIFICE, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service." (Rom 12:1)
"Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. Yea, and if I be offered upon the SACRIFICE and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all. For the same cause also do ye joy, and rejoice with me. (Phil 2:16-18)
"For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity. Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things [which were sent] from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a SACRIFICE acceptable, wellpleasing to God. (Phil 4:16-18)
And finally...
"Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. By him therefore let us offer the SACRIFICE OF PRAISE TO GOD CONTINUALLY, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name. But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such SACRIFICES God is well pleased. (Hebrews 13:13-16)
And to continue, what do you think about the next verse?
"For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD [is] polluted; and the fruit thereof, [even] his meat, [is] contemptible. (Mal 1:11-12).
I wonder what PERFECT SACRIFICE will be offered by the GENTILES from sunrise to sunset, in opposition to the Jewish TABLE OF THE LORD? The Table of the MEAT, (Flesh) is no longer contemptible. The FRUIT is no longer polluted. WHY? Hmmm. Sounds like the Catholic Mass?!
Regards
"the bible never called for a mass nor for a sacrifice from Christians."
Biblewonk, for a guy who has read the Bible so much, how could you write that, esp. the second part?
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living SACRIFICE, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service." (Rom 12:1)
"Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. Yea, and if I be offered upon the SACRIFICE and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all. For the same cause also do ye joy, and rejoice with me. (Phil 2:16-18)
"For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity. Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things [which were sent] from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a SACRIFICE acceptable, wellpleasing to God. (Phil 4:16-18)
And finally...
"Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. By him therefore let us offer the SACRIFICE OF PRAISE TO GOD CONTINUALLY, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name. But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such SACRIFICES God is well pleased. (Hebrews 13:13-16)
And to continue, what do you think about the next verse?
"For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD [is] polluted; and the fruit thereof, [even] his meat, [is] contemptible. (Mal 1:11-12).
I wonder what PERFECT SACRIFICE will be offered by the GENTILES from sunrise to sunset, in opposition to the Jewish TABLE OF THE LORD? The Table of the MEAT, (Flesh) is no longer contemptible. The FRUIT is no longer polluted. WHY? Hmmm. Sounds like the Catholic Mass?!
Regards
I obviously wasn't talking about that kind of sacrifice. Please don't play concordance games. The bible doesn't call for a Christian priesthood to make sacrifices, of Christ's body, to God.
You said "...I obviously wasn't talking about that kind of sacrifice. Please don't play concordance games"
I am sorry, but it wasn't obvious by your statement. My quotation of the pertinent verses refutes your statement. If one says that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient and we do not need to do anything, then what is the purpose of ANY sacrifice besides Christ's?? Isn't that the attitude you take by saying that Christianity has no sacrifices?
And what about Malachi 1:11-12?
You said "...The bible doesn't call for a Christian priesthood"
"But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light" (1 Pet 2:9)
Like the Jews of the OT, we, too, are a priestly people. What do priests do? They offer prayers for themselves and for others. They also offer sacrifices to God. And just like the Jews, we also have a ministrial priesthood - Christ told His disciples ONLY to "do this in memory of Me", not every Christian. My last post and this one seems to disagree with your concept that Christianity does not have a priesthood that makes sacrifices to God.
Regards
This lecture has been very helpful to me in my path to conversion. Also, Eating Christ, by Fr. Al Kimel, a fellow Anglo-Catholic who has decided to convert to Catholicism.Divine worship implies that we ourselves become beings of the word, that we conform ourselves to the creative Intellect. But once more, it is clear that we cannot do this of ourselves, and thus everything seems to end again in futility – until the day when the Word comes, the true, the Son, when He becomes flesh and draws us to Himself in the exodus of the Cross. This true sacrifice, which transforms us all into sacrifice, that is to say unites us to God, makes of us beings conformed to God, is indeed fixed and founded on an historical event, but is not situated as a thing in the past behind us, on the contrary, it becomes contemporary and accessible to us in the community of the believing and praying Church, in its sacrament: that is what is meant by the "sacrifice of the Mass.”
The error of Luther lay, I am convinced, in a false idea of historicity, in a poor understanding of unicity. The sacrifice of Christ is not situated behind us as something past. It touches all times and is present to us. The Eucharist is not merely the distribution of what comes from the past, but rather the presence of the Paschal Mystery of Christ, Who transcends and unites all times. If the Roman Canon cites Abel, Abraham, Melchisedech, including them among those who celebrate the Eucharist, it is in the conviction that in them also, the great offerers, Christ was passing though time, or perhaps better, that in their search they were advancing toward a meeting with Christ. The theology of the Fathers such as we find it in the canon, did not deny the futility and insufficiency of the pre-christian sacrifices; the canon includes, however, with the figures of Abel and Melchisedech, the "holy pagans" themselves in the mystery of Christ. What is happening is that everything that went before is seen in its insufficiency as a shadow, but also that Christ is drawing all things to Himself, that there is, even in the pagan world, a preparation for the Gospel, that even imperfect elements can lead to Christ, however much they may stand in need of purification.
Well it seemed like it was in the context of what had been said before. Christ's sacrifice is sufficient and we do not need a robed priest in a Catholic Priesthood to claim to be of the order of Melchisedek(sp) and to make an offering of Christ at each mass. This is pretty clearly what a standard protestant would complain about. But yes you can find the word sacrifice in the bible, even in the new testiment. That is not the point.
And what about Malachi 1:11-12?
You said "...The bible doesn't call for a Christian priesthood"
"But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light" (1 Pet 2:9)
Yes Christianity does not call for Catholic Priests and all the more not since by being born again we become Priests. That makes each Christian an intercessor who has direct access to God, hence the additional complaint about your interposing Mary between me and God. Being born again makes me a priest, but the RC invention of another priesthood demotes both me and Jesus.
Like the Jews of the OT, we, too, are a priestly people. What do priests do? They offer prayers for themselves and for others. They also offer sacrifices to God. And just like the Jews, we also have a ministrial priesthood - Christ told His disciples ONLY to "do this in memory of Me", not every Christian. My last post and this one seems to disagree with your concept that Christianity does not have a priesthood that makes sacrifices to God.
Yes everything that comprises a priest is what each saint, each Christian is. Again, you demote each Christian and the work of the Lord by adding another layer between me and God in your Catholic Priesthood.
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