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What We Have Lost
In The Spirit of Chartres ^ | In The Spirit of Chartres

Posted on 06/03/2005 9:22:21 PM PDT by GOPmember

What We have Lost
...and the Road to Restoration
A critical look at the changes in the Catholic Church

This video gives you an intimate, up-close look at the destructive and wide-spread changes that have taken place in the two-thousand-year-old Catholic Church since the close of the Second Vatican Council in 1965.

Much of what you see will surprise you, maybe even shock you, and -- unfortunately -- will sadden you. "What We Have Lost" not ony exposes the external damage that has been done to the Universal Church, but goes deep behind the scenes to reveal the hidden changes; how and when they were made; and who made them.

This video asks the hard questions: Is the Church still Catholic? Has She lost the true faith? Does the clergy still truly "believe?" Can we count on today's Church to lead us to salvation? The answers found in "What We Have Lost" may bring you to anger -- or to tears. But after you see it, you will never look at the "modern" Church in the same way again.

And "What We Have Lost" is about hope. Hope in Jesus Christ and His one true Church on earth. Plus it's about the restoration of the traditional Latin Mass and the "Faith of our Fathers;" and it documents the groundswell of traditionalism within the Church, and how you can be a part of it...on the "Road to Restoration."


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic
KEYWORDS: apologetics; catholic; catholicism; liturgicalabuses; liturgy; novusordo; traditional; tridentine
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To watch video, right click and save as here

This video is nearly 700MB, so broadband is a must (and a download manager program is recommended).

A little over the top at times? Yes.

Anti-Vatican II and even faint sedevacantist overtones? Some.

Nonetheless, it illustrates well the most extreme fruits of liberalism that have proliferated in the Church over the past 40-some-odd years.

Additional reviews/summaries of the video may be found here and here.

1 posted on 06/03/2005 9:22:22 PM PDT by GOPmember
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To: GOPmember
One of your links connects one with Traditio, a site run by a fake priest.

Subject: Re: ("Fr. M. E.) Morrison

Body: Hello:

M.E. Morrison was "ordained" in California in a Protestant church (Ebenezer Lutheran Chirch) by Thaddeus Alioto, a married man claiming to be a bishop (because he had been "consecrated" a bishop by Wallace David de Ortega Maxey).

De Ortega Maxey had been "consecrated" numerous times by various North American Old Catholic bishops (whom even the Old Catholic Churches in Europe deny have valid orders). De Ortega Maxey also *claimed* to have been consecrated by Antoine Aneed.

Aneed's story is that he was consecrated a bishop by a RC Eastern Rite bishop in Syria and sent to America. Both the Vatican and the Syrian Patriarchate involved denounced the story as a fabrication.

If you have any doubts over the veracity of my statements as to where Morrison got "ordained," just ask his fellow "independent" priest, Merril Adamson. He was "ordained" in the same ceremony. I've a written statement from him confirming the fact.

This is important not because of anything Morrison states on the internet, but because he dresses up his statements as coming from a RC priest.

Even the devil can quote Scripture.

Anyone e-mailing to Morrison's list a request for the facts of his claimed ordination will be dropped.

It never ceases to amaze me how sedevacantists can be so cock-sure JP II is a fraud, yet swallow hook, line and sinker any number of bogus clerics; just because the frauds sing the music sedes like to hear.

It takes more than "right" preaching to make a priest.

Regards, Terry Boyle

[Mr. Boyle's website is at http://www.tboyle.net/ ]

* It is an Infallible Catholic Dogma the Church cannot fail.

Vatican I

Chapter 2. On the permanence of the primacy of blessed Peter in the Roman pontiffs

That which our lord Jesus Christ, the prince of shepherds and great shepherd of the sheep, established in the blessed apostle Peter, for the continual salvation and permanent benefit of the church, must of necessity remain for ever, by Christ's authority, in the church which, founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time [45] . For no one can be in doubt, indeed it was known in every age that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, the pillar of faith and the foundation of the catholic church, received the keys of the kingdom from our lord Jesus Christ, the saviour and redeemer of the human race, and that to this day and for ever he lives and presides and exercises judgment in his successors the bishops of the holy Roman see, which he founded and consecrated with his blood [46] .

Therefore whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole church. So what the truth has ordained stands firm, and blessed Peter perseveres in the rock-like strength he was granted, and does not abandon that guidance of the church which he once received [47]

Pray for the Peace of Christ; trust in Him and His promises. Don't be led astray by those seeking to sow doubt and fear.

2 posted on 06/04/2005 4:02:27 AM PDT by bornacatholic
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To: GOPmember
In obedience to the decrees of Urban VIII, of holy memory, I protest that I do not intend to attribute any other than human opinion to any theory as to the ultimate cause of the fall of the Vatican institution from Catholic teaching, including my own. Such theories can only be regarded as such until confirmed by the Holy Roman Catholic Church and by the Holy Apostolic See, when better times return and Modernism ceases to hold sway with those leaders who regard themselves as "Catholic." I profess myself to be an obedient son, to the reliable Popes from Peter to Pius XII, and yet to come, and therefore I submit whatever I have written in this book to their judgment.

This is from the other link you provided. This gentleman, who wrote an online book about the Resurrection of the Roman Catholic Church (sic) apparently thinks the Popes since Pius XII (who died in 1958) are unreliable.

How are these links, which attack the Church and the Living Magisterium established by Jesus and promised by Him never to fail, useful to Christians?

3 posted on 06/04/2005 4:14:56 AM PDT by bornacatholic
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To: GOPmember
Anti-Vatican II and even faint sedevacantist overtones? Some.

Too bad because it is unnecessary. Traditionalists like that, I fear, do more harm than good.

4 posted on 06/04/2005 6:11:29 AM PDT by TradicalRC (I'd rather live in a Christian theocracy than a secular democracy.)
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To: GOPmember

It's just the same articles, over and over again. To answer some of your questions: Yes, the Church is still indeed Catholic, and yes, most priests still believe in the Church's teachings, and no, the disgruntled Trads are not the arbiters of what is and isn't Catholic.


5 posted on 06/04/2005 6:22:48 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: GOPmember; Canticle_of_Deborah; Gerard.P; vox_freedom; donbosco74; te lucis; sempertrad; AAABEST; ..

ping


6 posted on 06/04/2005 6:40:13 AM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: TradicalRC

**Traditionalists like that, I fear, do more harm than good.**

So ture.


7 posted on 06/04/2005 6:47:50 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Conservative til I die
There is certainly nothing wrong with attempting to correct the wrongs that have occurred since Vatican II and no reason to be defensive about all of the ills that we face as Roman Catholics. The picture below of a Catholic from Boston in 2003 says it all. It depicts someone protesting the scandalous priest abuse crisis. It could also depict those who wish to bring traditional values, doctrine, and dogma back to the Faith.

For me, I have real hope and do pray that our new Pope Benedict XVI will bring about stability and direct a resurgance in the True Faith. But it should be recognized that ignoring problems without acknowledging or addressing them, is the very reason we are in the situation we are in today.


8 posted on 06/04/2005 7:26:15 AM PDT by vox_freedom (Fear no evil)
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To: TradicalRC

Time eventually proves everything. So far it has not been too kind to Vatican II.


9 posted on 06/04/2005 8:12:44 AM PDT by metfan
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To: vox_freedom

I agree there is nothing wrong with correcting the abuses of the post-Vatican II era. But the traditionalists simply gripe from their armchair about Latin Mass and priests with their backs to the congregation. A) That is not the cure-all for what ails the Church and B) It's a pipe-dream to think we can turn the clock back 200 years as if nothing happened.


10 posted on 06/04/2005 8:14:24 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: Conservative til I die

Oh stop! You are simply not telling the truth about traditionalists.

Quit the fiction writing and deal with what traditionalists are actually fighting and you may learn something.

If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.


"The job of Progressives is to go on making mistakes, the job of Conservatives is to prevent those mistakes from being corrected." G.K. Chesterton.


11 posted on 06/04/2005 10:22:23 AM PDT by Gerard.P (The lips of liberals drip with honey while their hands drip with blood--Bishop Williamson)
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To: Conservative til I die
...about Latin Mass and priests with their backs to the congregation

The priest is facing the Tabernacle and our Lord. The fact that his back is to the congregation is, of course, secondary. The focus of attention is not the interaction between the priest and his parishoners. But, I'd imagine that this has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere on this forum.

The analogy isn't perfect, but an argument can be made that lamenting that the celebrant's back is to the congregation during the Mass is akin to complaining that a general's back is to his troops when he leads them into battle.


But the traditionalists simply gripe from their armchair about Latin Mass and priests with their backs to the congregation.

Traditionalists also attend Mass, participate in their parishes, raise families, teach their children, expose others to the Mass and tradition known to generation after generation long past. What would you propose should instead be done?


It's a pipe-dream to think we can turn the clock back 200 years as if nothing happened.

200 years? And, why is this a pipe dream?
12 posted on 06/04/2005 10:47:13 AM PDT by GOPmember
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To: bornacatholic
One of your links connects one with Traditio, a site run by a fake priest.

This is from the other link you provided. This gentleman, who wrote an online book about the Resurrection of the Roman Catholic Church (sic) apparently thinks the Popes since Pius XII (who died in 1958) are unreliable.


Be that as it may, I included these links simply as short, additional explanations of the film. And, I stated that this was the purpose of the links. I did not provide the links to sing the praises of their authors.


How are these links, which attack the Church and the Living Magisterium established by Jesus and promised by Him never to fail, useful to Christians?

Please see above. I had to go digging to find the statement you quoted in the book penned by this man. So, you must have had to do the same. I did not link to the statement you quoted. I did link, however, to a summary of the movie for the purposes outlined above.

Furthermore, I prefaced my links with statements that the movie goes to extremes at times to make its points, and I noted that it has both Anti-VII and sedevacantist overtones. I would think that the fact that I mentioned these aspects at the outset would make it clear that I find them regrettable and unecessary.

I can’t wait to see the flaming begin once someone actually watches the movie.
13 posted on 06/04/2005 10:59:24 AM PDT by GOPmember
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To: GOPmember
Since the link to the film appears to be currently either down or overloaded, Here's another.

I think the codec needed to view the film is Divx MPEG4, though I'm not 100% on that.
14 posted on 06/04/2005 11:13:15 AM PDT by GOPmember
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To: GOPmember
But the traditionalists simply gripe from their armchair about Latin Mass and priests with their backs to the congregation. Traditionalists also attend Mass, participate in their parishes, raise families, teach their children, expose others to the Mass and tradition known to generation after generation long past. What would you propose should instead be done?

So do Novus Ordo Catholics. Traditionalists don't have a monopoly on this. Also, I am not complaining about a priest having his back to the congregation and yes, I am aware of why the priest used to celebrate Mass this way. I am just fine with it. I am merely pointing out that saying the Mass in Latin and having the priest face the Tabernacle are not some magic cure-all to the Church's problems.
15 posted on 06/04/2005 11:20:53 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: Gerard.P
Oh stop! You are simply not telling the truth about traditionalists. Quit the fiction writing and deal with what traditionalists are actually fighting and you may learn something.

I don't understand why you're so defensive. Relax.

If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

Grow up and come back to reality. Like I said, Trads do not have a monopoly to "the solution". Just because you don't like how some of us NO Catholics go about solving things doesn't make us the enemy. It just makes you look silly.
16 posted on 06/04/2005 11:22:57 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: GOPmember

if the think the capitol "C" Catholic church has been around for two thousand years, you're dreamin.


17 posted on 06/04/2005 11:23:41 AM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: GOPmember
It's a pipe-dream to think we can turn the clock back 200 years as if nothing happened.

GOPmember "200 years? And, why is this a pipe dream?"

Because the Body of Christ, the Church, His Spouse, moves forward in time, inexorably, towards the culmination of time; the Judgement.

Those who seek to turn back the clock, to return to a time of imagined purity, are always left behind, widows and widowers of a dead culture. Once, the Liturgy was Greek. Then a Pope changed the Liturgy into the vernacular Latin. Now, we have a vernacular Mass. This is not a Blessing?

Trent itself identified far worse abuses occuring in the old Liturgy.

DECREE CONCERNING THE THINGS TO BE OBSERVED, AND TO BE AVOIDED, IN THE CELEBRATION OF MASS.

What great care is to be taken, that the sacred and holy sacrifice of the mass be celebrated with all religious service and veneration, each one may easily imagine, who considers, that, in holy writ, he is called accursed, who doth the work of God negligently; and if we must needs confess, that no other work can be performed by the faithful so holy and divine as this tremendous mystery itself, wherein that life-giving victim, by which we were reconciled to the Father, is daily immolated on the altar by priests, it is also sufficiently clear, that all industry and diligence is to be applied to this end, that it be performed with the greatest possible inward cleanness and purity of heart, and outward show of devotion and piety. Whereas, therefore, either through the wickedness of the times, or through the carelessness and Corruption of men, many things seem already to have crept in, which are alien from the dignity of so great a sacrifice; to the end that the honour and cult due thereunto may, for the glory of God and the edification of the faithful people, be restored; the holy Synod decrees, that the ordinary bishops of places shall take diligent care, and be bound to prohibit and abolish all those things which either covetousness, which is a serving of idols, or irreverence, which can hardly be separated from impiety; or superstition, which is a false imitation of true piety, may have introduced. And that many things may be comprised in a few words: first, as relates to covetousness:--they shall wholly prohibit all manner of conditions and bargains for recompenses, and whatsoever is given for the celebration of new masses; as also those importunate and illiberal demands, rather than requests, for alms, and other things of the like sort, which are but little removed from a simonical taint, or at all events, from filthy lucre.

In the next place, that irreverence may be avoided, each, in his own diocese, shall forbid that any wandering or unknown priest be allowed to celebrate mass. Furthermore, they shall not allow any one who is publicly and notoriously stained with crime, either to minister at the holy altar, or to assist at the sacred services; nor shall they suffer the holy sacrifice to be celebrated, either by any Seculars or Regulars whatsoever, in the houses; or, at all, out of the church, and those oratories which are dedicated solely to divine worship, and which are to be designated and visited by the said Ordinaries; and not then, unless those who are present shall have first shown, by their decently composed outward appearance, that they are there not in body only, but also in mind and devout affection of heart. They shall also banish from churches all those kinds of music, in which, whether by the organ, or in the singing, there is mixed up any thing lascivious or impure; as also all secular actions; vain and therefore profane conversations, all walking about, noise, and clamour, that so the house of God may be seen to be, and may be called, truly a house of prayer.

Lastly, that no room may be left for superstition; they shall by ordinance, and under given penalties, provide, that priests do not celebrate at other than due hours; nor employ other rites, or other ceremonies and prayers, in the celebration of masses, besides those which have been approved of by the Church, and have been received by a frequent and praiseworthy usage. They shall wholly banish from the Church the observance of a fixed number of certain masses and of candles, as being the invention of superstitious worship, rather than of true religion; and they shall instruct the people, what is, and whence especially is derived, the fruit so precious and heavenly of this most holy sacrifice. They shall also admonish their people to repair frequently to their own parish churches, at least on the Lord's days and the greater festivals. All, therefore, that has been briefly enumerated, is in such wise propounded to all Ordinaries of places, as that, by the power given them by this sacred and holy Synod, and even as delegates of the Apostolic See, they may prohibit, ordain, reform, and establish, not only the things aforesaid, but also whatsoever else shall seem to them to have relation hereunto; and may compel the faithful people inviolably to observe them, by ecclesiastical censures and other penalties, which at their pleasure they may appoint; any privileges, exemptions, appeals, and customs whatsoever, to the contrary notwithstanding.

end of quote

Trent notes the "mass of all time" was rife with filthy lucre, superstition, commmotion, folks jabbering during Mass, wordly music, folks not going to mass, vagus clergy clebrating here and there without permission from the Bishop who had Jurisdiction. Nothing new under the sun. The Living Magisterium has authority (always has) to take decisions about traditions - it can preserve them, it can change them, it can abandon them, and you, if you are an authentic Christian, you will obey the Living Magisterium you profess in the Creed to believe in.

18 posted on 06/04/2005 11:24:28 AM PDT by bornacatholic (It must be tough being a traditionalist what with all the correcting of HM Church it demands)
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To: GOPmember
Be that as it may, I included these links simply as short, additional explanations of the film.

How about a review written by one in Union with the Pope?

19 posted on 06/04/2005 11:30:10 AM PDT by bornacatholic (It must be tough being a traditionalist what with all the correcting of HM Church it demands)
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To: GOPmember
No need to look. I just found a review by one, formerly sspx'er, now in Union with the Pope.

What We Have Lost" Is What We Must Recover Our Faith In Christ's Mystical Body.

By Peter Vere

"The Word of God who brought into existence men's souls and bodies, became man in Judea -- our Savior Jesus Christ. Perfectly righteous and filled with divine wisdom, He lovingly taught us what the God of all is like, and what is the end of virtue, befitting the souls of men with a view to social order and dignity. By His own suffering He put a stop to sins in their very beginning. He taught us to relieve sorrow, to be generous, to promote charity, to put away vainglory, to abstain from taking revenge, to despise death -- not when inflicted for wrongdoing, but in patient endurance of the wrongdoing of others. He taught us to obey the law laid down by Himself, to honor the king, to worship the immortal God, and Him only, to believe our souls to be immortal, to look forward to judgement after death, to expect the reward of the toils of virtue to be given by God after the resurrection of those who have lived good lives. All this He taught us plainly." [Appolonius the Apologist, quoted from Butler's Lives of the Saints, revised by Thurston and Attwater (Westminster, MD, 1956), vol. II, p. 120.]

Not too long ago, my attention was drawn to an area of a Traditionalist web-page claiming to list essential works every Traditionalist should read in order to preserve their Catholic faith during the modern crisis within the Church. Of the thirty or so works listed, I was surprised to find fewer than five printed before the Second Vatican Council -- and within these five works, fewer still were written by Saints or Roman Pontiffs. Assuming the good intentions of the webmaster, I was nevertheless saddened that so much space was devoted to controversy, and so little devoted to pursuing the Christian piety of the Saints and the teaching of the Magesterium. And thus I find myself reflecting upon the following question, namely what is this Tradition I seek to preserve and pass down to my children as a Catholic? Is it a Tradition of integrist paranoia which sifts numerous Masonic conspiracies and modernist cabals like the sands of the sea, or is it a Tradition of a united redemptive vision cntered around Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist and founded upon the solidity of the rock of St. Peter?

With the recent controversy within Traditionalist circles over the video "What We Have Lost," I find myself wondering whether as a movement we have bothered to pause and reflect upon this very question. While we may compare the Tridentine liturgy to the Novus Ordo and cite various liturgical traditions which have been lost in the post-conciliar liturgical reform, there is nevertheless a sense that the Traditionalist movement has lost something of its own in periodically sacrificing popular piety for polemic. At the root of this malaise infecting the movement is the irony of having become so painfully focused upon Judas Iscariot's betrayal, that they have lost sight of He whom Judas betrayed -- Jesus Christ. Since the pontificate of Pope Pius XII, what we have lost as Traditional Catholics, is our trust in the Blessed Mother and St. John the Apostle comforting our Lord at the foot of the cross. Even more than the liturgy, what we have lost as Traditional Catholics is a sense of popular piety and devotion towards the Mystical Body of Christ which now finds itself crucified by cultural Judas Iscariots.

As a Traditional Catholic, I am not called to place my faith in Judas Iscariot's ability to conspire, betray and destroy the Church. Rather, Christ calls us through the Gospels to place our faith in His ability to preserve the Church against those who, inspired by the gates of hell, conspire to destroy her. For although the Mystical Body of Christ may at times appear to be undergoing a crucifixion, we have faith that these moments of darkness will soon pass and, like Our Lord's physical body, His Mystical Body will resurrect itself by the power of the Holy Ghost. It is this faith in Christ's promise to preserves the Church which the Traditionalist Movement has lost, and it is this hope firmly rooted in popular piety which we must recover. For as Pope Pius XII reminds us, "the [Church's] greatest glory and exaltation are born only of sufferings, and hence...we should rejoice we partake of the sufferings of Christ, that when His glory shall be revealed we may also be glad with exceeding joy." [Mystici Corporis, par. 2]

It is in suffering alongside our Blessed Mother at the foot of the cross that we partake in the joy of her Divine Son's resurrection, uncovering "the riches hidden in a Church, which Christ hath purchased with His own blood, and whose members glory in a thorn-crowned Head." [Mystici Corporis, par. 2] For the blood which flows from the head of Christ is redemptive, bringing about the salvation of our soul. And while Church Militant may seem more like Church Suffering at the moment, in each and every thorn which pierces the Master's head we find a foretaste of Church Triumphant. Therefore, as Traditional Catholics we must persevere against the despairing call of integrism which, horrified at the sight of a crucified Church, calls us to abandon Christ's Mystical Body. Furthermore, we must not sever our ties St. Peter and his successors, for in severing our ties with the visible head of Christ's Mystical Body we sever our ties with the very thorn-crowned Head which brings about the glory of salvation. While the Holy Father may sometimes appear asleep on the throne of St. Peter, as Traditional Catholics we joyfully submit to him, faithful to Our Lord's bold reminder in Sacred Scripture that "Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren." [St. Luke 22: 31-32]

In quoting the Douay-Rheims translation which distinguishes between the plural "you" and the singular "thou," we note as Catholic Traditionalists that Satan has demanded of our Lord that he should sift all the apostles ("you" -- plural) as wheat, and by extension all the Christian faithful, but Our Lord has prayed for Simon Peter ("thou" -- singular) that SIMON PETER's faith may fail not -- promising Simon Peter that he will overcome any moments of temporary weakness and confirm the rest of the Church in the Catholic faith. What is even more notable in this passage is that Our Lord addresses the chief apostle not by his papal name "Peter," but by his birth name "Simon." Thus as Catholic Traditionalists we remain faithful to Our Lord's promise that He will preserve not only the faith of the office of St. Peter, but the faith of Simon the office holder.

Nevertheless, like in Christ's time when those Pharisees who sought tradition simply for tradition's sake ridiculed our crucified Lord, crying out "He saved others, now let him save himself," the present day apostles of integrism will accuse those of us who remain faithful to the ecclesiological Tradition of the Church of "selling out the Traditionalist movement" in remaining faithful to the Christ's promise to Simon-Peter. Yet in uniting ourselves as traditional Catholics to the crucified Christ firmly rooted in the rock of St. Peter's lawful successor, our "motive is altogether divine: not only the will of the Eternal Father and the earnest wish of our Savior, but the interior inspiration and impulse of the Holy Ghost in our minds and hearts." [Mystici Corporis, par. 75] Similarly, if upholding this promise of Our Lord means as Traditional Catholics we must share a Church with those who conspire against her, or else those who are weaker in faith and morals; we will gladly do so, inspired by the following reminder of Pope Pius XII that "Christ did not wish to exclude sinners from His Church; hence if some members of the Church are spiritually ill, that is no reason why we should lessen our love for the Church, but rather a reason why should increase our devotion to her members." [Mystici Corporis, par. 72]

This passage, so carefully crafted by His Holiness, express the inspired teachings of the Holy Ghost to which we cling as Traditional Catholics. They are part of the authentic Tradition preached by our Lord in the Gospels when He calls upon us to pray for our persecutors, so that they may be blinded by the light of Christ; for just as every Saul of Tarsus is a potential St. Paul, so too is every modernist seduced by worldly philosophies a potential St. Thomas Beckett inspired by Christ's passion. For it is in patiently undergoing crucifixion with Christ's Mystical Body and devoting ourselves as Catholic Traditionalists to the spiritual welfare of the modern-day prostitutes, tax-collectors and persecutors in our midst that the Church is showered with "heavenly gifts and extraordinary graces through which, with inexhaustible fecundity, she generates hosts of martyrs, virgins and confessors." [Mystici Corporis, art. 72]

What we have lost as Traditionalists, we must recover -- our faith in Holy Mother Church and our trust in Christ's promise to preserve His Mystical Body against the gates of hell. What we have lost in our battle to preserve Tradition is Charity towards God and neighbor -- the principle theological virtue according to the Angelic Doctor St. Thomas Aquinas -- and this we must recover if we are lead the restoration of the Church, for Our Lord teaches us in the Gospels that to love one's God and to love one's neighbor are the two commandments upon which the rest of our Catholic Tradition is founded. What we have lost in becoming embittered by the present worldly ideologues persecuting the Church is an earnest desire to see our enemies converted, and this we must recover if we wish to adhere to redemptive Tradition of Christ Crucified re-enacted in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. What we have lost as Traditionalists in isolating ourselves into catacombic ghettos is a sense of communion with the rest of Holy Mother Church, and we must recover our Traditional ecclesiological filial loyalty to Rome if we are to be the spiritual leaven which causes the Church rise out its present malaise.

As one of the first Traditional Catholic cyber-media barons to establish an Internet fiefdom through an email discussion list, a cyber-novel and a webpage, it requires little effort on my part to produce a polemical electronic rant celebrating the most egregious excesses of liturgical abuse within the Novus Ordo. Often I have found myself pointing the finger at the Novus Ordo, begging the question "what have we lost?" And yet if Christ were walking amongst us today, I am not certain I could account for all the talents which Christ has entrusted to Traditional Catholics -- either as an individuals within the movement, or to the movement as a whole. However, it is not the talents of those persecuting the Church or abusing the liturgy for which Christ will call us to account on Judgement Day, but rather He will demand from us an account of those talents with which He blessed us as Traditional Catholics in communion with Pope John Paul II and his lawful successors.

Therefore, let those flirting with integrism pose of the Novus Ordo the rhetorical question "what have we lost?" in which we can only discern an effort to justify a schismatic mentality -- for those who are without the Rock of St. Peter will always be the first to cast sins upon the Church; as Traditional Catholics in communion with the See of St. Peter, our first duty in looking towards the Sacred Tradition passed down by our forefathers is to ask this question of ourselves, and only then may we ask "what can we as Traditional Catholics recover for the Church Christ founded on St. Peter?" And let us pose these questions and carry out their response in a spirit of Christian Charity towards our neighbors, our ecclesiastical superiors, and our persecutors -- always remembering that "if at times there appears in the Church something that points to the weakness of our human nature, put it down not to the juridical constitution, but rather to that regrettable inclination to evil found in everyone, which its divine Founder permits even at times in the most exalted members of His Mystical Body, for the purpose of testing the virtue of flocks and Shepherds, and that all may increase the merit of their Christian faith." [Mystici Corporis, art. 72]

For to recover a sense of Christian Charity towards others cannot but strengthen the Traditionalist cause within the Church. It is a sad commentary upon the movement that we too often dismiss Charity as a syrupy post-conciliar innovation perpetuated solely by charismatics and social justice activists within the Church. And yet the call to Christian Charity is firmly rooted in our Catholic Tradition, for as Pope Pius XII reminds us, "Charity, then, more than any other virtue binds us closely to Christ. On fire with this flame from heaven how many children of the Church have rejoiced to suffer insults for Him, and to face and overcome the hardest trials, though it cost their lives and the shedding of their blood." If we are truly what we claim to be -- Catholics who uphold and practice the Traditional teachings of the Church -- we must heed this call from the Magisterial Tradition of the Church to show charity to those who persecute us, whether it be our neighbor, our ecclesiastical superior, or a Saul of Tarsus seeking to destroy the Church. Again, the salvation of souls is too precious a cause for the Traditionalist Movement to become embittered by persecution, polemic, betrayal and past wrongs.

What we have lost is what we must recover -- the supernatural virtue of Charity. If one surveys the great expanse of the Church's history, one notes that even in the best of times Our Lord calls each individual to save his soul through Christ. In the most troubled of times, however, Our Lord calls us not only to save our own soul through Christ, but that of our neighbor as well. As Traditional Catholics it is imperative that we heed the teachings of our saints like Francis of Assisi who is alleged to have commanded his followers to "go into the world and preach the Gospel of Christ, using words only when necessary." As Catholic Traditionalists, our Lord has not called us to save the Church -- neither privately as individuals nor corporately as a movement within the Church -- for only Christ is capable of such an awesome feat; rather, Our Lord has called us each and every Catholic Traditionalist to be a saint, to exercise heroic virtue in conforming our lives to the Sacred Deposit of Holy Tradition safeguarded in the Petrine Primacy, and to be an example which leads others to salvation in Christ.

What we have lost in the Traditional Catholic Movement is the call to personal sanctity in our daily lives. What we must recover as Catholic Traditionalists, if we are to be effective in fostering Tradition among the rest of the Church while converting those outside the Church, is the zeal of saints for the salvation of souls and joyful conformity to the Will of Christ. In the end, what we must recover as Catholic Traditionalists is the desire to be great saints. And while such a feat may seem incredible, impossible, presumptuous and a host of other adjectives which serve simply as excuses in order to justify our fallen nature and weakness of will; to become a saint is not only possible in Christ, but probable if as Catholic Traditionalists we show but a mustard seed of faith in the redemptive sacrifice of His crucifixion as well as an iota of joyful submission to the salvific juggernaut of His Mystical Body the Church.

(copyright 2000, Peter John Vere)

20 posted on 06/04/2005 11:39:15 AM PDT by bornacatholic (It must be tough being a traditionalist what with all the correcting of HM Church it demands)
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To: bornacatholic
Based on the Conciliar passages you've quoted, I get the impression that you're agruing in favor of the Tridentine Mass rather than against it.


...many things seem already to have crept in, which are alien from the dignity of so great a sacrifice...

Indeed.


In the next place, that irreverence may be avoided, each, in his own diocese, shall forbid that any wandering or unknown priest be allowed to celebrate mass.

That's fine. Too bad it doesn't apply to my FSSP priest, who is in full union with Rome.


They shall also banish from churches all those kinds of music, in which, whether by the organ, or in the singing, there is mixed up any thing lascivious or impure; as also all secular actions; vain and therefore profane conversations, all walking about, noise, and clamour, that so the house of God may be seen to be, and may be called, truly a house of prayer.

Indeed, again.


...nor employ other rites, or other ceremonies and prayers, in the celebration of masses, besides those which have been approved of by the Church, and have been received by a frequent and praiseworthy usage.

Two words: Ecclesia Dei
21 posted on 06/04/2005 11:42:11 AM PDT by GOPmember
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To: bornacatholic

Pete Vere is no traditionalist. And I have yet to see or hear him or read of him that he has formally denounced his Satanism.

The nonsense he wrote in "Surprised by Truth 3" shows just how ridiculous his line of thinking is.


22 posted on 06/04/2005 11:54:04 AM PDT by Gerard.P (The lips of liberals drip with honey while their hands drip with blood--Bishop Williamson)
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To: Conservative til I die

What I'm complaining about are ignorant neos who like to make false statements about traditionalists.


23 posted on 06/04/2005 11:55:11 AM PDT by Gerard.P (The lips of liberals drip with honey while their hands drip with blood--Bishop Williamson)
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To: GOPmember
I went to the "In the Spirit of Chartres" Committee web page and clicked on the restoration conferences. I looked at the speakers and their topics. More endless rehashing of the Since-the-death-of-Pius XII-everything-has-gone-to-hell thesis.

Those folks appear joyful in their misery. It is almost as if they dig for negative news as a way to justify their dissension, destruction and disunifying ways.

I want no part of those folks, their publications, productions, tapes, audiences etc. I am a happy Christian in Union with the Holy Father and these folks of the ISOCC outfit, if they were men of integrity, would cease proclaiming the Creed because they clearly do not believe in the ONE spoken in the Creed because that ONENESS in the Creed is UNITY, the Unity of Worship, Doctrine and Authority and they, clearly reject that.

BTW, all the ancient Catechisms teach that about the Creed and these folks reject it so of what value are their personal opinions vs. the Living Magisterium about which ....

Jesus: " He who hears you, hears me"

24 posted on 06/04/2005 11:59:23 AM PDT by bornacatholic (It must be tough being a traditionalist what with all the correcting of HM Church it demands)
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To: GOPmember
Based on the Conciliar passages you've quoted, I get the impression that you're agruing in favor of the Tridentine Mass rather than against it.

You missed my point. I'll repeat it. There is no purity in the past to which we can return. As the Council of Trent noted, even the "mass of all time" was rife with abuses, simonical taint, superstition, commotion, worldy music etc etc.

I am happy you have access to the FSSP. I used to go to the Indult my ownself.

So, does the FSSP promote or sell this video? If not, why not? If you don't know, will you please ask your FSSP priest his opinion of the video and tell us his response?

For the record, I am in favor of anything the Living Magisterium permits,promotes etc, incluidng the Indult. I prefer the Pauline Rite myself.

25 posted on 06/04/2005 12:06:59 PM PDT by bornacatholic (It must be tough being a traditionalist what with all the correcting of HM Church it demands)
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To: Gerard.P
Pete Vere is no traditionalist. And I have yet to see or hear him or read of him that he has formally denounced his Satanism.

Which lay-trad-pope has authority to declare one a trad or a pretend trad?

Mr. Vere is a convert to the Faith and he is a Canon Lawyer.

His journey from Atheism to Satanism to Catholicsm is a witness to the Glory and Mercy and Grace of our Lord and Saviour.

26 posted on 06/04/2005 12:14:07 PM PDT by bornacatholic (It must be tough being a traditionalist what with all the correcting of HM Church it demands)
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To: bornacatholic

The same authority that lets you go on your cockamamey rants about who is and who is not obedient to the "Living Magisterium".

It's so plainly obvious you toss around words and phrases that you have no idea of what they mean.

Vere is a liar and a calumniator. I've brought to his attention on numerous occasions and he did his level best to slither out of it. When his behavior was overt, I asked him point blank if he was sure he ever left the occult. Of course he didn't answer.


27 posted on 06/04/2005 12:18:08 PM PDT by Gerard.P (The lips of liberals drip with honey while their hands drip with blood--Bishop Williamson)
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To: Gerard.P







Pete Vere's Author Bio

Pete Vere grew up as in Northern Ontario, where he attended French Catholic schools. He is a revert from the SSPX schism, one of the youngest canon lawyers in North America, and a doctoral candidate with the Faculty of Canon Law at Saint Paul University. As a Catholic writer, canonist and apologist, Pete's work has appeared in numerous Catholic publications, including Surprised by Truth 3. He is the co-author of Surprised by Canon Law: 150 Questions Catholic Ask About Canon Law and More Catholic Than the Pope. Additionally, he is currently developing a canon law course for Catholic Distance University. Pete is married to his college sweetheart Sonya, and they have two children (but are hoping God will send them more!) When not engaging in canon law or apologetics, Pete and Sonya volunteer with the International Order of Alhambra -- a Catholic fraternal organization dedicated to assisting the mentally and developmentally challenged. Sonya loves it because it allows her to spend some quality time with Pete away from the computer, and Pete loves it because he gets to wear a nifty white fez and still be a Catholic in good standing!


28 posted on 06/04/2005 12:21:02 PM PDT by bornacatholic (It must be tough being a traditionalist what with all the correcting of HM Church it demands)
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To: Conservative til I die
But the traditionalists simply gripe from their armchair about Latin Mass and priests with their backs to the congregation. A) That is not the cure-all for what ails the Church

No. It is merely one of many effectual results that stem from the causality of an uprising of traditionalism among Catholics. Which will in fact go a long way to restoring the Church towards purity and beauty.

B) It's a pipe-dream to think we can turn the clock back 200 years as if nothing happened.

Please. Thge traditional Latin Mass was around in my lifetime. Surprise, I'm less than two hundred years old! The atavistic impulse is a perrenial part of human nature and asserts itself from time to time. It is "progressivers" like yourself that view history as a straight line where the present always contains the highest point reached by humanity; that is the primary delusion of liberalism.

29 posted on 06/04/2005 12:31:44 PM PDT by TradicalRC (I'd rather live in a Christian theocracy than a secular democracy.)
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To: bornacatholic
I don't doubt that abuses existed in the past. The selling of indulgences immediately comes to mind. But, I find it ironic that nearly all of the abuses your quotes describe run rampant in so many Novus Ordo parishes, yet are completely absent in the Tridentine.

Am I arguing that the past is better only because it is old? No.

I am arguing that there is a reverency, beauty, and consistency inherent to the Tridentene Mass that shaprly contrasts with the hand holding, hugging, applause, irreverent music (complete with drums and guitars), and the "never know what to expect this week" elements that I grew up with in (and which subsequently drove me away from) the N.O. Mass.

So, does the FSSP promote or sell this video? If not, why not? If you don't know, will you please ask your FSSP priest his opinion of the video and tell us his response?

I'm not aware that the FSSP promotes this video. I'll ask father about it the next time I get a chance. I suspect that you are waiting for me no reply "no" (which I believe is probably the answer), which you'll likey then use to further your attempts at discounting this film which you've admitted you will never watch.

Please don't get me wrong. I understand your desire to not promote fringe groups and ideas that are in conflict with Rome. But, I'm not sure that the vast majority of information in this movie is so out of line. If I'm wrong, I'd be interested in hearing the arguments against it. But, you've rejected it outright without even seeing it.

30 posted on 06/04/2005 12:38:35 PM PDT by GOPmember
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To: GOPmember

Thanks. I was wondering why it wasn't working, I thought it was me.


31 posted on 06/04/2005 2:25:55 PM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: GOPmember

In my opinion and I'll go no futher...this video IS A MUST SEE to those who have been stumbling around not understanding what has happened to the Once Universally same Roman Catholic Church!!! All priests ,Bishops, Cardinals ect. and Latity NEED to see this one!
Our Lady of La Salette,in 1864 warned that "ROME would lose the Faith and also the world...and sooo it started with the Changes of the Holy Mass to a mere mess! reverevnce and modesty went out the window and modernism and lack of realization of SIN came in ...guess who was really responsible for it all!!! WATCH AND SpREAD This Video! AMEN!


32 posted on 06/04/2005 4:07:40 PM PDT by Rosary (Pray the Rosary daily and wear the brown scapular)
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To: Rosary

I have seen this video and it does not exagerate. It is odd that those who claim such loyalty to the pope tolerate these sacrileges. Those who are labeled schismatics have the most profound respect for the Host and the mass.

Think about Abel and Cain. Abel offered the unspottd lamb while Cain offered far less. Who pleased God more?


33 posted on 06/04/2005 5:20:31 PM PDT by metfan
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To: GOPmember

bumpus ad summum


34 posted on 06/04/2005 8:32:27 PM PDT by Dajjal
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To: GOPmember
This video asks the hard questions: Is the Church still Catholic? Has She lost the true faith? ... Can we count on today's Church to lead us to salvation?

What business does any Catholic have asking such questions?

Q. What, then, is the Church at the present time?
  A. The entire body of pastors and people, bound together by the same divine truths, laws, and means of grace, under one head, the Pope of Rome.
Q. Who are the true successors of the Apostles?
  A. Only the Bishops of the Roman Catholic Church.
Q. Why?
  A. Because they alone are rightly consecrated and in communion with the Pope, the Head of the Church.
Q. Is not the Catholic Church the household of which Jesus Christ is the Master?
  A. She is.
Q. Will Satan be able to take possession of this household in spite of its Divine Master?
  A. No one can say so without blasphemy.
Q. Is not the Catholic Church the Body of Jesus Christ?
  A. The Church, says St. Paul, is the Body of Christ.
Q. What follows from this?
  A. That Christ is inseparably united with His Church.
Q. What, then, would it be for one to say that the Church could be destroyed?
  A. It would be to say that Christ or God can be overcome, which would be the height of madness and blasphemy. (Fr. Michael Müller, Familiar explanation of Christian doctrine, pp. 44-5, 65-6)

35 posted on 06/04/2005 9:07:18 PM PDT by gbcdoj (Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.)
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To: bornacatholic; GOPmember; TradicalRC; murphE

"Because the Body of Christ, the Church, His Spouse, moves forward in time, inexorably, towards the culmination of time; the Judgement.

Those who seek to turn back the clock, to return to a time of imagined purity, are always left behind, widows and widowers of a dead culture."

I assume then that you would also condemn any attempts to turn the clock back by 1500 years?

And yet this was exactly the stated motivation of the post-conciliar reformers who gave us the "Pauline rite" which you say you prefer. Why is the attempt to turn the clock back by 1500 years meritorious, whereas the desire of Traditionalists to simply have the Mass in use a mere 40 years ago is so worthy of all your venom, bile and condemnation?

Your hatred of the Traditional Mass is both illogical and hypocritical when you try to set it in the context of "turning the clock back". I suppose you are also more Catholic than the Pope who has gone on record several times saying that the result of the post-conciliar attempts to turn the clock back has been a "banal on the spot product" which was "fabricated by committee"?

It would seem that the Pope's view of the new liturgy has much more in common with that of the SSPX than it does with yours!


36 posted on 06/05/2005 5:41:53 AM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: gbcdoj

In less than 150 words, what is the True Faith, as defined by the CC? In other words, what is required for salvation? Thank you.


37 posted on 06/05/2005 6:35:39 AM PDT by phatus maximus (John 3:16...it's not just words on a sign held in the end zone anymore...)
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To: bornacatholic

Your first paragraph is historically incorrect. The Tridentine Mass was codified AFTER the Council of Trent. In reference to the worldy music you mention, the problem was in the melodies that were employed at the time for liturgical use. Many of these were secular songs with liturgical texts set to them. Also, it seems, from reading some history of Palestrina's time, that there was a problem with the music being so polyphonic and elaborate, that words tended to be obscured by the music.

But on to the point of the "traveling" FSSP priest. I think a couple of weeks ago you kept posting the canon from the Council of Trent regarding priests celebrating outside their dioceses, etc... Does that mean the the FSSP is ipso facto censured?


38 posted on 06/05/2005 7:35:57 AM PDT by CouncilofTrent (Quo Primum...)
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To: Tantumergo
Your hatred of the Traditional Mass is both illogical and hypocritical when you try to set it in the context of "turning the clock back".

One might go so far as to say diabolical.

39 posted on 06/05/2005 8:16:33 AM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: Tantumergo
I assume then that you would also condemn any attempts to turn the clock back by 1500 years?

And yet this was exactly the stated motivation of the post-conciliar reformers who gave us the "Pauline rite" which you say you prefer. Why is the attempt to turn the clock back by 1500 years meritorious, whereas the desire of Traditionalists to simply have the Mass in use a mere 40 years ago is so worthy of all your venom, bile and condemnation?

Excellent point.

40 posted on 06/05/2005 9:21:22 AM PDT by TradicalRC (I'd rather live in a Christian theocracy than a secular democracy.)
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To: phatus maximus
In less than 150 words, what is the True Faith, as defined by the CC? In other words, what is required for salvation? Thank you.
O my God, who are infallible Truth and can neither deceive nor be deceived, I firmly believe all that you have revealed and propose to my belief through your holy Church, because you have revealed it. I believe that you are one in nature and three in Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I believe that you are the Creator of all things and that you reward the just for all eternity in heaven and punish the wicked for all eternity in hell. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God made man, that he suffered and died for my sins and rose from the dead in glory, and that it is only in him through the Holy Spirit that eternal life is given to men. I believe in fine all that your holy Church believes. I thank you for having called me to the true faith, and I protest that with the help of your grace I will live and die in this holy faith.

From the Handbook of Indulgences.

41 posted on 06/05/2005 12:44:34 PM PDT by gbcdoj (Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.)
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To: Tantumergo

I was going to respond, too, but after reading yours, I realized you said it all for me. Thanks.


42 posted on 06/05/2005 10:27:42 PM PDT by donbosco74
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To: phatus maximus

You ask a good question, and the reply (post #41 by gbcdoj) is a good answer.

It seems to me that what you ask could also use the additional teaching of the Church regarding one's death, that one must accept his final moments of trial as just punishment for his sins. Protestants have great difficulty with this doctrine, since it involves the spirit of penance. One's last moments of life are so important because that is the time that the devil goes all out to deceive him into some kind of mortal sin, such as despair. That is why living your whole life with the resolution to not hate pain but rather to embrace it as a means for purifying one's soul, is an invaluable habit to have at hand when it comes to dying well. Now don't misunderstand me by thinking that going around finding ways to torture yourself is expected of Catholics. We have to be reasonable, especially in this modern age.

This is not an easy topic to cover in a few words, so I'll go rather than bore you.


43 posted on 06/05/2005 10:52:25 PM PDT by donbosco74
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To: Tantumergo
And yet this was exactly the stated motivation of the post-conciliar reformers who gave us the "Pauline rite" which you say you prefer. Why is the attempt to turn the clock back by 1500 years meritorious, whereas the desire of Traditionalists to simply have the Mass in use a mere 40 years ago is so worthy of all your venom, bile and condemnation?

My post had to do with the erroneous idea that restoring the old liturgy would be a panacea. I cited Trent to remind those tempted to embrace the idea I just noted that no Liturgy is a panacea.

Your hatred of the Traditional Mass is both illogical and hypocritical when you try to set it in the context of "turning the clock back". I suppose you are also more Catholic than the Pope who has gone on record several times saying that the result of the post-conciliar attempts to turn the clock back has been a "banal on the spot product" which was "fabricated by committee"?

I have no hatred of the old Liturgy. I was raised in the old Liturgy and I loved it. I still do. I love every Liturgy our Holy Mother Church has approved for use. As I say, I was raised in the old Liturgy. I have attended the Divine Liturgy of the Maronites. I have attended the Divine Liturgy of the Ruthians. I now, exclusively, attend the Pauline Rite. In my mind, all Liturgues/Services/Masses/Divine Liturgies etc are, in their essence, the action of Jesus offering Himself (a Priest and victim) to God on our behalf and so I consider that we have always had only one Mass, one Liturgy since the Last Supper; different Rites, yes; different Liturgies in which the Mass is anchored, yes. But only one Mass.

So, there is no way I would harbor hatred for any Mass. While it is true I prefer the Pauline Rite, if I were to attent the Indult I would feel perfectly at home and know the responses by heart. But I consider Mass in the vernacular to be a great blessing and right for our time.

One reason I stopped assisting at the Indult was my wife pointed out to me the rather haughty and self-righteous attitude which permeated the sermons of the Priest who offered the Indult. I really didn't want to face the matter but she was right. I began to listen more closely and it was clear he considered "us" more faithful and orthodox Catholics than "they" who accepted the Pauline Rite. Of course, I don't think that way and I found the atmosphere among the "theys" to be more Christian. I still have long-lasting friendships with those who exclusively attend the Indult and they are, to a man, men of character and charity and compassion. But clearly the Priest had an issue and that particular Indult tended to inculcate a Fortress "us" (traditionalist) Church vs a "them" (those like me who accepted Vatican Two and all the supposedly unorthodox approaces to Christians of other faiths) probably unorthodox attitude.

My current Pastor is brilliant, orthodox, inspiring and has converted literally hundreds of Christians and, at last count, 7 Jews.

As to my "venom, bile, and condemnation", I simply reject that characterization out of hand. There is no doubt I fulfill my Confirmational Duty to defend the Faith against those who, daily, attack it because it does not match their personal preferences, prejudices, and programs. I don't see the church returning to the 16th Century but I don't respond in that way because I reject or hate the Old Roman Missal. You conflate and confuse the issues into "hatred" I am afraid. And that is not up to your usually very high standards

I harbor no anomosity towards you. Just the opposite. I consider you to be right at the top of the Christians in here when it comes to knowledge of the Faith, intellect etc etc and I have learned a lot from you. And I pray, daily (it is part of my Rosary Intention) for the schism to be healed and I love and support the Indult. (I continue to send money to the FSSP. I have for years. I have met and spoken at length with Fr. Devillers). However,I do not expect the schism to be healed. That would take a miracle; thus the prayer.

It would seem that the Pope's view of the new liturgy has much more in common with that of the SSPX than it does with yours!

Certainly Pope Benedict is our sweet Jesus on earth (as St. Catherine of Sienna said about a Pope back in the day) and I consider us blessed to have him as Pope. When it comes to abuses in the Pauline Rite he and I are in perfect harmony. When it comes to the Pauline Rite and the New Missal, he and I are in perfct harmony.

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger: The Feast of Faith: Approaches to a Theology of the Liturgy

Those who cling to the "Tridentine Missal" have a faulty view of the historical facts. Yet at the same time, the way in which the renewed Missal was presented is open to much criticism. We must say to the "Tridentines" that the Church’s liturgy is alive, like the Church herself, and is thus always involved in a process of maturing which exhibits greater and lesser changes. Four hundred years is far too young an age for the Catholic liturgy - because in fact it reaches right back to Christ and the apostles and has come down to us from that time in a single, constant process. The Missal can no more be mummified than the Church herself.

"Yet, with all its advantages, the new Missal was published as if it were a book put together by professors, not a phase in a continual grown process. Such a thing has never happened before. It is absolutely contrary to the laws of liturgical growth, and it has resulted in the nonsensical notion that Trent and Pius V had "produced" a Missal four hundred years ago. The Catholic liturgy was thus reduced to the level of a mere product of modern times. This loss of perspective is really disturbing.

"Although very few of those who express their uneasiness have a clear picture of these interrelated factors, there is an instinctive grasp of the fact that liturgy cannot be the result of Church regulations, let alone professional erudition, but, to be true to itself, must be the fruit of the Church’s life and vitality.

"Lest there be any misunderstanding, let me add that as far as its contents is concerned (apart from a few criticisms), I am very grateful for the new Missal, for the way it has enriched the treasury of prayers and prefaces, for the new eucharistic prayers and the increased number of texts for use on weekdays, etc., quite apart from the availability of the vernacular. But I do regard it as unfortunate that we have been presented with the idea of a new book rather with that of continuity within a single liturgical history.

end of quote<>

I have been alive since before Pope Pius XII died and I love all of the Popes (including Pius) we have had since him. I think we have been extraordinarily blessed with these amazing Popes. While I have witnessed other major denominations change doctrine and become radacalized and politicized I have seen our Holy Fathers guide us safely through troubled waters admist vast and enormous and radical changes. Thanks be to God we have a sweet Jesus on Earth like Pope Benedict, the man I prayed would suceed John Paul the Great. "In my view, a new edition will need to make it quite clear that the so-called Missal of Paul VI is nothing other than a renewed form of the same Missal to which Pius X, Urban VIII, Pius V and their predecessors have contributed, right from the Church’s earliest history. It is of the very essence of the Church that she should be aware of her unbroken continuity throughout the history of faith, expressed in an ever-present unity of prayer. [Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger: The Feast of Faith: Approaches to a Theology of the Liturgy Ignatius Press, San Francisco, Ca, pgs. 86-87 (c. 1986)]

44 posted on 06/06/2005 4:19:33 AM PDT by bornacatholic (It must be tough being a traditionalist what with all the correcting of HM Church it demands)
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To: GOPmember; TradicalRC; murphE

Oops, forgot to ping you to post #44


45 posted on 06/06/2005 4:20:44 AM PDT by bornacatholic (It must be tough being a traditionalist what with all the correcting of HM Church it demands)
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To: CouncilofTrent; ninenot
My post was historically correct. The "mass of all time" the "traditionalists" constantly remind us is immermorial.

The FFSP priests are not vagus clergy

There have always been problems with Liturgical Music as our resident expert, Ninenot, reminds us.

46 posted on 06/06/2005 4:24:53 AM PDT by bornacatholic (It must be tough being a traditionalist what with all the correcting of HM Church it demands)
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To: bornacatholic
"In my view, a new edition will need to make it quite clear that the so-called Missal of Paul VI is nothing other than a renewed form of the same Missal to which Pius X, Urban VIII, Pius V and their predecessors have contributed, right from the Church’s earliest history. It is of the very essence of the Church that she should be aware of her unbroken continuity throughout the history of faith, expressed in an ever-present unity of prayer. [Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger: The Feast of Faith: Approaches to a Theology of the Liturgy Ignatius Press, San Francisco, Ca, pgs. 86-87 (c. 1986)]

* Ut oh, another job of poor editing by me

47 posted on 06/06/2005 4:30:54 AM PDT by bornacatholic (It must be tough being a traditionalist what with all the correcting of HM Church it demands)
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To: bornacatholic
It is ndeed tough being a traditionalist, with the price of a gallon of gas. I want no part in a liturgy put together by six Protestants and a Masonic priest, (Bugnini). So even though they removed everything offensive to Protestants, they succeeded in making it offensive to many Catholics.
48 posted on 06/06/2005 8:53:56 AM PDT by metfan
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To: metfan
It is ndeed tough being a traditionalist, with the price of a gallon of gas.

LOL I can imagine. Were it even possible to do so, a trip back to the 16th Century would take an awful lot of gas.

I want no part in a liturgy put together by six Protestants and a Masonic priest, (Bugnini). So even though they removed everything offensive to Protestants, they succeeded in making it offensive to many Catholics.

"THE MASS IS THE SAME"

Address of Pope Paul VI to a General Audience, November 19, 1969

Our Dear Sons and Daughters:

1. We wish to draw your attention to an event about to occur in the Latin Catholic Church: the introduction of the liturgy of the new rite of the Mass. It will become obligatory in Italian dioceses from the First Sunday of Advent, which this year falls on November 30. The Mass will be celebrated in a rather different manner from that in which we have been accustomed to celebrate it in the last four centuries, from the reign of St. Pius V, after the Council of Trent, down to the present.

2. This change has something astonishing about it, something extraordinary. This is because the Mass is regarded as the traditional and untouchable expression of our religious worship and the authenticity of our faith. We ask ourselves, how could such a change be made? What effect will it have on those who attend Holy Mass? Answers will be given to these questions, and to others like them, arising from this innovation. You will hear the answers in all the Churches. They will be amply repeated there and in all religious publications, in all schools where Christian doctrine is taught. We exhort you to pay attention to them. In that way you will be able to get a clearer and deeper idea of the stupendous and mysterious notion of the Mass.

3. But in this brief and simple discourse We will try only to relieve your minds of the first, spontaneous difficulties which this change arouses. We will do so in relation to the first three questions which immediately occur to mind because of it.

4. How could such a change be made? Answer: It is due to the will expressed by the Ecumenical Council held not long ago. The Council decreed: "The rite of the Mass is to be revised in such a way that the intrinsic nature and purpose of its several parts, as also the connection between them, can be more clearly manifested, and that devout and active participation by the faithful can be more easily accomplished.

5. "For this purpose the rites are to be simplified, while due care is taken to preserve their substance. Elements which, with the passage of time, came to be duplicated, or were added with but little advantage, are now to be discarded. Where opportunity allows or necessity demands, other elements which have suffered injury through accidents of history are now to be restored to the earlier norm of the Holy Fathers" (Sacrosanctum Concilium #50).

6. The reform which is about to be brought into being is therefore a response to an authoritative mandate from the Church. It is an act of obedience. It is an act of coherence of the Church with herself. It is a step forward for her authentic tradition. It is a demonstration of fidelity and vitality, to which we all must give prompt assent.

7. It is not an arbitrary act. It is not a transitory or optional experiment. It is not some dilettante's improvisation. It is a law. It has been thought out by authoritative experts of sacred Liturgy; it has been discussed and meditated upon for a long time. We shall do well to accept it with joyful interest and put it into practice punctually, unanimously and carefully.

8. This reform puts an end to uncertainties, to discussions, to arbitrary abuses. It calls us back to that uniformity of rites and feeling proper to the Catholic Church, the heir and continuation of that first Christian community, which was all "one single heart and a single soul" (Acts 4:32). The choral character of the Church's prayer is one of the strengths of her unity and her catholicity. The change about to be made must not break up that choral character or disturb it. It ought to confirm it and make it resound with a new spirit, the spirit of her youth.

9. The second question is: What exactly are the changes?

10. You will see for yourselves that they consist of many new directions for celebrating the rites. Especially at the beginning, these will call for a certain amount of attention and care. Personal devotion and community sense will make it easy and pleasant to observe these new rules. But keep this clearly in mind: Nothing has been changed of the substance of our traditional Mass. Perhaps some may allow themselves to be carried away by the impression made by some particular ceremony or additional rubric, and thus think that they conceal some alteration or diminution of truths which were acquired by the Catholic faith for ever, and are sanctioned by it. They might come to believe that the equation between the law of prayer, lex orandi and the law of faith, lex credendi, is compromised as a result.

11. It is not so. Absolutely not. Above all, because the rite and the relative rubric are not in themselves a dogmatic definition. Their theological qualification may vary in different degrees according to the liturgical context to which they refer. They are gestures and terms relating to a religious action--experienced and living--of an indescribable mystery of divine presence, not always expressed in a universal way. Only theological criticism can analyze this action and express it in logically satisfying doctrinal formulas. The Mass of the new rite is and remains the same Mass we have always had. If anything, its sameness has been brought out more clearly in some respects.

12. The unity of the Lord's Supper, of the Sacrifice on the cross of the re-presentation and the renewal of both in the Mass, is inviolably affirmed and celebrated in the new rite just as they were in the old. The Mass is and remains the memorial of Christ's Last Supper. At that Supper the Lord changed the bread and wine into His Body and His Blood, and instituted the Sacrifice of the New Testament. He willed that the Sacrifice should be identically renewed by the power of His Priesthood, conferred on the Apostles. Only the manner of offering is different, namely, an unbloody and sacramental manner; and it is offered in perennial memory of Himself, until His final return (cf. De la Taille, Mysterium Fidei, Elucd. IX).

13. In the new rite you will find the relationship between the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist, strictly so called, brought out more clearly, as if the latter were the practical response to the former (cf. Bonyer). You will find how much the assembly of the faithful is called upon to participate in the celebration of the Eucharistic sacrifice, and how in the Mass they are and fully feel themselves "the Church." You will also see other marvelous features of our Mass. But do not think that these things are aimed at altering its genuine and traditional essence.

14. Rather try to see how the Church desires to give greater efficacy to her liturgical message through this new and more expansive liturgical language; how she wishes to bring home the message to each of her faithful, and to the whole body of the People of God, in a more direct and pastoral way.

15. In like manner We reply to the third question: What will be the results of this innovation? The results expected, or rather desired, are that the faithful will participate in the liturgical mystery with more understanding, in a more practical, a more enjoyable and a more sanctifying way. That is, they will hear the Word of God, which lives and echoes down the centuries and in our individual souls; and they will likewise share in the mystical reality of Christ's sacramental and propitiatory sacrifice.

16. So do not let us talk about "the new Mass." Let us rather speak of the "new epoch" in the Church's life.

With Our Apostolic Benediction.

end of quote

It appears you consider the Divinely Established Authority unworthy of your obdeience. C'est la vie. What does the Pope know anyhow? Who died, resurrected and made him the one with supreme authority anyhow?

And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven

49 posted on 06/06/2005 10:11:49 AM PDT by bornacatholic (It must be tough being a traditionalist what with all the correcting of HM Church it demands)
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To: Gerard.P
Pete Vere is no traditionalist. And I have yet to see or hear him or read of him that he has formally denounced his Satanism.

Are you saying he attends a NO Mass? Then he formally renounces Satan every Easter, at the renewal of baptismal vows.

50 posted on 06/06/2005 10:22:01 AM PDT by Romulus (Der Inn fließt in den Tiber.)
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