Eastern Orthodox Ecclesiology: against false unions [my title]

orthodox Inofrmation Center ^ | 1990 | Alexander Kalimoros

[kosta50]

It is pretty obvious to me that any talk of reunion is just empty words. I have no clue what the Pope hopes to achieve; he hasn't stated the goals, the steps and the details of his call for reunion or how he sees that it even merits the effort. I have stated so at the beginning of this thread I posted, and I end it in the same spirit: Your Holiness, state your case!

[Graves]

In Rome, "Then when did the [azymes] start?" Petrosius

I would say at the same time as filioque was first recited in the Creed in Rome. This would have been in the year 1014 when the German Holy Roman Emperor, Henry II, forced the Pope of Rome to do things his way. Until then, according to historian John Meyendorff and others, the word filioque had not been included in the Creed as recited IN ROME.

Two hundred years earlier, the 8-9th century Novus Ordo man, Protodeacon Alcuin of York, redesigned the liturgy as celebrated at Aachen for Holy Roman Emperor Charlemagne and again later at the Abbey of St. Martin in Tours. It was that Novus Ordo liturgy that was shoved down the Roman throat in A.D. 1014. Today, we call it Tridentine, but the Tridentine roots are Alcuinian, not Roman and certainly not Petrine.

[gbcdoj]

It was that Novus Ordo liturgy that was shoved down the Roman throat in A.D. 1014. Today, we call it Tridentine, but the Tridentine roots are Alcuinian, not Roman and certainly not Petrine.

Please, that's absurd. The roots of the Tridentine (the Canon, etc.) are recorded in the Leonine, Gelasian, and Gregorian Sacramentaries which long predate Alcuin.

[Graves]

Roots away, me boys, roots away! "The roots of the Tridentine (the Canon, etc.) are recorded in the Leonine, Gelasian, and Gregorian Sacramentaries which long predate Alcuin." Yes indeedy. OK, so he did not invent the liturgy for Aachen out of cloth. But it was indeed Alcuin who did the dirty deed and Henry II who shoved it right down the throat of the Roman pope.

Details are all layed out for you in glorious detail by Gerald Eliard,S.J., Master Alcuin, Liturgist: A Partner of Our Piety (Chicago, Loyola University Press, 1956).

Read and weep baby!

[Petrosius]

Yes, indeed, it is so evil to change the liturgy. Any moment now the Orthodox will condemn St. John Chrysostom for the heretic he really was for changing the the liturgy of St. Basil. Yes, indeed, any day now all the Orthodox will return to the true and pure liturgy of St. Basil for all their Masses.

Oh, wait, St. Basil also changed the liturgy of St. James. Yes, we must consign St. Basil to the depths of Hell with St. John Chrysostom. Yes, only the pure and unchanged liturgy of St. James will do.

[Graves]

"Yes, only the pure and unchanged liturgy of St. James will do."
Nice try Petrosius but the only difference between the three is the wording of the canon. The original one, of course, is that of St. James. The others are slightly shorter. All three are retained. We don't persecute parishes for retaining them. Finally, unlike Alcuin of York, Orthodox never interpolated words into the Creed to make it say what they want it to say. Nor have they exchanged azymes for leavened bread, or put Protestant hymns in the liturgy as have the Novus Ordo clergy, or composed prayers for the liturgy that draw heavily on Augustine of Hippo.
Don't you get it?
There is a spirit in the West, a spirit of restlessness and dissatisfaction. Because of this, the West keeps on reinventing the wheel, even the liturgical wheel. Why? It all started with Augustine, and then the Council of Toledo, and then Alcuin and his liturgical tinkering, and then Henry II actually telling the Pope what liturgy he could employ in his very own basillica, and then the Cluniac Reform with its policy as to forced clerical celibacy, and then the new paschalion in 1582, and most recently the imposition of worst liturgy ever concocted(the disgusting Novus Ordo).
You people are sick. And you just cannot seem to stop ruining the world you live in.
Get some help.

[Petrosius]

the only difference between the three is the wording of the canon.

Such a minor thing the Canon. Why anyone should be able to write his own.

But that was not the only change. The liturgy of St. John Chrysostom today is not the same as that of his day. Let's see, we will have to eliminate the Trisagion (introduced by Proklos of Constantinople in the 5th cent., you know), the Cherubikon and the Creed (introduced by Justin II in the 6th cent.), and the Proskomide (introduced in the 9th cent. and subject to change up to the 16th cent.). Such evil little tinkerers. Who would have known?

[Agrarian]

"Such a minor thing the Canon. Why anyone should be able to write his own."

Hm. Let me get this right. A post Vat II Catholic is accusing an Orthodox Christian of thinking that one can just write one's own canon? Very interesting, given the way that eucharist prayers have been created out of whole cloth right and left in the NO world. I understand that there are 60+ eucharistic prayers to choose from in France...

A mere 4 choices on the 1970 menu in America -- although I understand that this hasn't stopped the proliferation of others.

And the one mass that isn't available anywhere on the planet in the vernacular is the eternal Mass of Trent...

[Hermann the Cherusker]

For the last time on this: The Church taught and still teaches that the Father gives existence to both the Son (by generation) and to the Spirit (by procession) simultaneously before all ages, eternally.

Where did I say differently?

I explained what procession is that is different from generation according to the Fathers.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Two hundred years earlier, the 8-9th century Novus Ordo man, Protodeacon Alcuin of York, redesigned the liturgy as celebrated at Aachen for Holy Roman Emperor Charlemagne and again later at the Abbey of St. Martin in Tours. It was that Novus Ordo liturgy that was shoved down the Roman throat in A.D. 1014. Today, we call it Tridentine, but the Tridentine roots are Alcuinian, not Roman and certainly not Petrine.

Maybe Alcuin travelled back in time to write the Gregorian, Gelasian, and Leonine Sacramentaries 200-300 years before his actual lifetime? These Papal Sacramentaries are the origin of the heart of the Ordinary and Proper of the Roman Mass codified at Trent by St. Pius V and recodified by Paul VI.

It could be that Alcuin even managed to get all the way back in time to Pope Innocent and St. Ambrose, both of whom quote the Roman Canon.

The possibilities of your suggestion of this time travel by Alcuin are really quite stunning for our liturgical history. I encourage you to further investigate this and let us know the results of your studies.

[kosta50]

Where did I say differently?

In that case, there is no need to add anything to it.

No need for cut-and-paste...please. I have been tempted so many times to do the same (and I have fallen for it on occasion), but it all leads to nothing constructive. Even that issue with Jerome -- I decided to leave it rather than mention forgeries attributed to him, or to spell out, Pope by Pope, the procession -- the builidng up -- of the Papcy into something it was not in the beginning. It would not change anyone's mind, mine the least.

The point of this post is that the Pope called for unity. I am asking what is he proposing, point by point, so that it can be studies and that the Orthodox clergy as well as laity know what is on the table.