Pope to Say Prayers in Hebrew at Synagogue

Yahoo News ^ | July 5, 2005

[NYer]

German-born Pope Benedict XVI will say prayers in Hebrew when he visits the synagogue in Cologne, Germany, that was destroyed by the Nazis, a cardinal organizing the trip said Tuesday.

Jewish representatives invited the pope to visit while he is in Germany in August for the Roman Catholic Church's World Youth Day and Benedict replied, '"I will come,"' said Cologne Cardinal Joachim Meisner.

The visit will include a prayer service in which the psalms will be "prayed," the cardinal said. "We have learned them in Hebrew."

Since his April 19 election as pope, the German-born Benedict has reached out to Jews while denouncing crimes by the Nazis. He served in the Hitler Youth organization as a teen and later deserted from the German army in the waning days of World War II.

"We (the Germans) carry our wounds up to this day, and sometimes they are still bleeding wounds," Meisner said of World War II and the Holocaust.

In that context, and that of the first German pope in 500 years, the cardinal said the visit becomes an "unequivocal symbol to our elder brothers and sisters" that the Holocaust "must never happen again."

Jewish leaders have praised Benedict for his efforts to improve relations between Catholic and Jews during the many years Benedict worked in the Vatican before becoming pope.

Benedict will visit Cologne from Aug. 18-21, a trip originally planned by the late John Paul II.

[NYer]

Pope to visit synagogue during Cologne visit in August

[NYer]

FINAL SCHEDULE for World Youth Day.

[hlmencken3]

Complete Psalms ('Tehillim') chanted in Hebrew are available on CD at:

http://www.chadishmedia.com/Tehillim.htm

[maryz]

Can you tell me more? I understand synagogue chant varies widely by region. Which is used? (I wish I could ask more intelligently, but I need a bit more knowledge to do so!)

[hlmencken3]

It's a kind of standard American-accented Ashkenazic pronunciation, intended for personal recitation.

Chadish also has CDs with the actual Hebrew prayers - Ashkenaz nusach.

http://www.virtualcantor.com/index.htm

has on-line Hebrew prayers. And there are other on-line and apps for various pronunciations around the net.

[maryz]

Thanks. I'm used to Israeli pronunciation myself and so prefer it. Do you know anything about that Suzanne Hauk Ventoura's work (trying to recreate the original chant indicated in the cantillation marks) or the Saevae group? I can't seem to find much on google that's not promotional lit.

[hlmencken3]

I know almost nothing about Suzanne Haik-Ventoura (note correct spelling).

I have always understood that Yemenite and perhaps Morroccan pronunciations are the most ancient.

[bornacatholic]

Great. This will set on edge the teeth of the extreme right. Imagine, praying with Jews....

[maryz]

That was a typing error! I have her CD right here; it's just too humid to type right. (I know, that's what they all say!)

I rather like it, though I haven't listened to it seriously yet (i.e., concentrating and following along with the text).

The Saevae sounds kind of interesting.

[Romulus]

Imagine, praying with Jews....

Nothing wrong with this, so long as it's really prayer and not a stunt for cameras. One way to prove it's NOT a stunt would be for Jews to reciprocate in kind, btw.

[sempertrad]

Nothing wrong with this, so long as it's really prayer...

...to Christ; not some messiah who has yet to come.

One way to prove it's NOT a stunt would be for...

the Pope to make it clear that we love the Jews so much that we want all of them to join us as we worship the Messiah who came for the first time 2000 years ago.

[bornacatholic]

Dunno. Maybe we should give the Pope the benefit of the doubt.

Stunt?

[k2blader]

Great. This will set on edge the teeth of the extreme right. Imagine, praying with Jews....

What do you mean by "the extreme right"?

[Ciexyz]

Kudos to Pope Benedict XVI for his outreach program to those of the Jewish faith.

[AliVeritas]

What does that mean? I smell cordite in the air.

[bornacatholic]

Extremists on the right; those whose "traditionalism" is poisoned by antisemitism

[asantane]

Hmmm... Traditionalism poisoned by antisemitism... Well, in a way the New Testament is antisemitic, at least since that accusation is thrown out quite loosely.

I am not part of the sedevacantist-traditionalist-huttongibson crowd, but in my opinion Catholics ought to turn inward and concentrate on the fullness of Catholicism instead of trying to make these gestures towards the Jewish people. The Jews won't make any in return, as it seems that Catholic-Jewish relations are all about what Catholics can do for the Jews. I've never seen a Jew give kudos to a Catholic, unless it's a case of Catholic doing something that specifically benefits the Jew. Sad but true.

Now, how about turning to Egypt instead and exploring what is the Egyptian pre-Christian heritage to Catholicism.

[murphE]

Imagine, praying with Jews....

Imagine preaching Christ crucified to them and praying for their conversion...scandalously antisemitic, so glad the Church doesn't do that anymore.

[bornacatholic]

We are a missionary church. We must turn outwards.

We, and other Christians, haven't acted towards the Jews in ways that encourage compliments, to say nothing about conversions.

Our roots are Jewish not pre-Christian Egyptian

[N. Theknow]

Oy Vey Maria!

[McGavin999]

The visit will include a prayer service in which the psalms will be "prayed," the cardinal said. "We have learned them in Hebrew."

What a beautiful gift.

[bornacatholic]

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_07121990_redemptoris-missio_en.html

[bornacatholic]

well, he was a modernist then :)

[nonsumdignus]

How has any of these ecumenical services brought Souls into the faith? What success can you point that highlight a successful approach to converting Souls to Christ? Surely, after 40 years worth of experimentation, you must have some evidence.

If anything, these stunts only serve to please the "global community" and are PR campaigns designed to atone for the sins cast by the media and press: from the nazi slurs thrown at the Church, to the Inquisition, and ultimately, the history of the faith in Europe.

The ends of these events (aside from good feelings to all, which are just that, fleeting feelings) are only to weaken the call to evangelization and conversion, since the underlying message is that being Catholic doesn't really matter after all--or better yet--you can be Jewish all you want, God ultimately does not care that you believe in Christ and sanctify your Soul through the sacraments of the Church.

And that message, my friend, is not extremist, it is both Catholic and traditional (to be redundant). If it is extremist to say that the Pope's actions in this instance undercut the uniqueness of our faith to our laypeople and to Souls outside the faith, then *you* are the one that has become extremist, not those who are remaining faithful to what has always been taught.

[hlmencken3]

Jewish law prohibits a Jew from even entering a church sanctuary, so it certainly would not be permitted to pray there.

http://www.jewishmediaresources.com/article/658/

"...INTERFAITH DIALOGUE IS POINTLESS because it can change nothing. Halachah, or Jewish law, is the province of those with a full command of the vast halachic literature. There is no more place in the halachic process for the opinions of those lacking such a grounding, be they Jew or gentile, than there is for polling synagogue members to determine halachic practice."

"...True, Catholic doctrine concerning the traditional charge of deicide against Jews has changed greatly in recent decades. (Unlike rabbis, the Pope has the power to enunciate new doctrine.) Yet here too it is doubtful that Catholic doctrine changed because of theological arguments raised by rabbis, whose area of expertise is presumably not the Christian Gospels. Rather it changed because of the Church’s guilt over its complicity in Hitler’s Final Solution and the legacy of Jew hatred based on millennia of Church teachings."

"...INTERFAITH DIALOGUE IS UNNECESSARY because its absence in no way prevents the development of pleasant, fruitful relations between people of different faiths. Religious people do in fact usually find large areas of commonality between them. Orthodox Jews, for instance, experience a much higher comfort level with evangelical Christians than do secular Jews, despite their eschewal of theological dialogue."

[annalex]

I'd draw the line at prayers in foreign houses of worship. I think, a prayer for the souls of those who perished and those who killed them should be said in a Christian church, in the most appropriate language, which for the occasion may very well be Hebrew, and with Jewish leaders invited as guests. After Assisi, any closer commingling of different faiths is not productive to anyone, even if it is technically permissible.

[Tantumergo]

"Pope Pius XI, September 6, 1983"

Gosh! I never suspected you of sede vacantism!!! ;)

[k2blader]

Hrm, why not just use the term "neo-nazis"? Those are the only folks I can think of who fit that description. Or are you implying there are Catholics who fit that description?

[Romulus]

Catholic doctrine concerning the traditional charge of deicide against Jews has changed greatly in recent decades.

No it hasn't. Since at least the Council of Trent -- 450 years -- the Church has taught that Christ's death is more imputable to believing Christians than to Jews. While true that deicide was a common popular charge, it has never been official doctrine.

Rather it changed because of the Church’s guilt over its complicity in Hitler’s Final Solution...

That is a vile libel. The Church -- both officially, under orders from the Vatican, and by individual initiative -- did more to save Jewish lives during the Second World War than all others combined.

...and the legacy of Jew hatred based on millennia of Church teachings."

Historical Jewish hatred by Christians is to be deplored -- is it even still necessary to make that ritual renunciation? But it's useless to pretend that this hatred existed in a vacuum. The sad truth is that profound hate and mistrust were mutual. Many Christians, including some priests and bishops, incited contempt and persecution against Jews (even as others, including popes, insisted that the Jews were not to be molested in their persons or posessions. It's an ugly fact of human nature that minorities almost always are subjected to persecution, not excepting in Israel today, where Christian clergymen are sometimes insulted and spat upon in the streets.) But there was also profound rabbinic disdain for Christianity, to scatological and even pornographic extremes, as codified in the Talmud. If we are going to talk of reconciliation, or at least of mutual respect, it is useless to ignore the plain fact that there was guilt on both sides. Jews expecting apologies for old abuses must be prepared to extend apologies of their own.

[NYer]

Imagine preaching Christ crucified to them and praying for their conversion...scandalously antisemitic, so glad the Church doesn't do that anymore.

If you read no other book this year, I would recommend this one. It will clarify any misunderstandings you or anyone else may entertain about our salvation heritage.

The purpose of the book is to give the Christian reader a deeper understanding of Judaism, both as a religion in itself and as a central component of Christian salvation, and to reveal to the Jewish reader the incomprehensible importance and glory which Jews and Judaism most truly have; a glory and importance which is only revealed in the light of the Catholic faith. It traces the role of Judaism and the Jewish people in God’s plan for the salvation of all mankind from Abraham through the Second Coming, as revealed by the Catholic faith and by a thoughtful examination of history, showing the infinite nobility and importance which Judaism has as God’s own religion, and the unique and central role it has in the destiny of all of creation. Repeatedly it demonstrates that rather than debasing Judaism or Jews, true Christianity ennobles them to a far greater degree than even Judaism itself does. It documents that throughout history attacks on Jews and Judaism have been rooted not in Christianity, but in the most anti-Christian of forces.

SALVATION IS FROM THE JEWS

[annalex]

MACVSOG68,

See ## 33 and 34 regarding the recent defamation of Pius XII, which we discussed a while back.

[johnb838]

the Pope to make it clear that we love the Jews so much that we want all of them to join us as we worship the Messiah who came for the first time 2000 years ago.

How can I be a Catholic if I am not first a Jew? Ignore the Communists that would split us apart and denigrate the legacy of Pope Pius XII who protected the Jews of Rome and spoke out against and did everything possible to save the Jews of Europe. Israel: With you from the first, with you to the last. Here I stand. I can do no other.

[johnb838]

The Judaites are a tiny flame now compared to the mighty bonfire that is Catholicism. We must stand with and to protect our brothers and sisters from those who would wipe them from the face of the earth.

[johnb838]

Well, they take care of our holy places which is more than I can say of that other "religious" group in the middle east.

[hlmencken3]

The quotes from #27 are not my own.

I agree that Pius XII has been unfairly criticized.

"Our fellow human beings haven't sunk so low as we feared because they had never risen so far as we had imagined."
- H. L. Mencken

Leaving out the Holocaust, there is still an almost two-thousand year history of Christian anti-Semitism.

I have always thought that the rabbis who believed the Church had changed were naieve. But this is balanced a litttle by Romulus correctly noting that 'deicide' has never been official Church opinion.

Still, after my time on FR, I now hold that the rabbis who think the Church has changed are foolish and dangerous.

[MACVSOG68]

Thanks. I recall our discussion. I do wonder as I said before what the whole story is, and what those documents might reveal. We shall likely never know.

[Graves]

Apostolic Canon LXIV.

If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated.

[annalex]

We shall likely never know

I don't mean to heap on you personally on this, but the "we'll never know" attitude goes better from an admission of ignorance, incumbent on a researcher. Instead, the author of "Hitler's Pope" began with a calumny and now his readers are left to say "we'll never know" when that author recanted silently.

[murphE]

If you read no other book this year, I would recommend this one.

And I recommend you read this article:

Judaizers in the Catholic Church: An Analysis of the Ministries of David Moss and Roy Schoeman

and this one:

The theology of Jewish Converts Roy Schoeman and David Moss

[murphE]

How very well reasoned sensible of you. Bravo.

[dangus]

There are many extremely conservative people (to the right of the voting spectrum) who believe that the Roman Catholic church is secretly run by Jews, aiming to destroy the true Christian faith; and that the Pope is the Whore of Babylon, a Jew who will wage war against true Christians.

They are politically insignificant, because they tend to be too paranoid to participate in Democracy, but they are legion.

[dangus]

"Date should be 1938, not 1983."

Oh, come on... the pope faked his death, and spent decades in exile, appointing the true bishops who form the remnant of the true Catholic faith.

See? I'm not a sedevacantist!

(/Hutton Gibson)

[bannie]

Whatever language its in...I hope it's a prayer to save us from hillary.

[k2blader]

Yikes!! Thanks for the info. That clears it up for me, I think.

[MACVSOG68]

but the "we'll never know" attitude goes better from an admission of ignorance, incumbent on a researcher.

Since the two books I mentioned to you earlier have not to my knowledge been recanted by their authors, and since the Vatican still maintains those "hidden papers" which cover in detain the war years and subsequent events pertaining to any possible aid to post war Nazi moves to South America, I can certainly take that position. You on the other hand, simply because of your allegience to the Church would not consider those things as important. You are hardly an independent source. I keep an open mind on it, and at least have considered what you have had to say.