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Letting the Bible Speak for Itself—The Literal Meaning of “This Generation”
American Vision ^ | June 17, 2005 | Gary DeMar

Posted on 07/19/2005 7:07:09 AM PDT by topcat54

From Gary DeMar's multi-part response to Ed Hindson's article in the May 2005 issue of the National Liberty Journal on the topic of "The New Last Days Scoffers".

When Jesus answered His disciples' questions about "when these things" related to the temple's destruction would be and what signs would indicate His coming, He said, "this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" (Matt. 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32). "This generation," therefore, is the timing key. If we can know what the Bible means by "this generation," we can determine the timing of the events Jesus describes. Every time "this generation" is used in the Gospels, it always refers to the generation of people who were alive when Jesus spoke. "This generation" never means a future generation. Thomas Ice, an associate professor of Religion at Liberty University and the Liberty Theological Seminary, in a radio debate with me, admitted that each use of "this generation" in the Gospels, except the one used in Matthew 24:34, refers to the generation to whom Jesus was speaking. In his written debate with Kenneth L. Gentry, Ice writes: "It is true that every other use of 'this generation' in Matthew (11:16; 12:41-42, 45; 23:36) refers to Christ's contemporaries, but that is determined by observation from each of their contexts, not from the phrase itself." This means that seventeen times it means Jesus' contemporaries, and one time it means a future generation. William Lane disagrees:

"[T]his generation" clearly designates the contemporaries of Jesus (see on Chs. 8:12, 38; 9:19) and there is no consideration from the context which lends support to any other proposal. Jesus solemnly affirms that the generation contemporary with his disciples will witness the fulfillment of his prophetic word, culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem and the dismantling of the Temple.

Like he does with Acts 2:16, Ice must add words to Matthew 24:34 to get it to say what he needs it to say. For example, in Charting the End Times, Ice and LaHaye reconstruct Matthew 24:34 to read this way: "The generation that 'sees' these things will not pass away till all is fulfilled." In the LaHaye Prophecy Study Bible, of which Ed Hindson is one of the editors, the verse is given this treatment: "[T]he future generation that will live to see all the signs listed in the previous verses fulfilled in their lifetime" will not pass away until all is fulfilled. The near demonstrative "this" is removed, and from 5 to 19 words are added to make the verse refer to a future generation. And this is interpreting the Bible literally? Hindson writes the following in the Liberty Bible Commentary:

[T]he previously listed signs will continue to multiply throughout the Church Age and reach their ultimate climax at the end of the age in the generation of those who will live to see the entire matter fulfilled in their lifetime.

There is nothing in the entire context of the Olivet Discourse that says anything like this. Dr. Hindson is reading his dispensationalism into the chapter. William Sanford LaSor writes, "If 'this generation' is taken literally, all of the predictions were to take place within the life-span of those living at that time." D.A. Carson takes a similar position: "[This generation] can only with the greatest difficulty be made to mean anything other than the generation living when Jesus spoke. . . . [T]o make 'this generation' refer to . . . the generation of believers alive when eschatological events start to happen, is highly artificial." There you have it. If Matthew 24:34 is interpreted literally, it refers to the generation to whom Jesus was speaking.

Matthew 24:33 tells us as much: "even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door" (Matt. 24:33). The first use of "you" certainly refers to Jesus' first-century audience. So why wouldn't the second use of "you" refer to the same audience? Hindson comments that this verse "has caused some to speculate that these predicted events only relate to the coming destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, within the disciples' lifetime." He doesn't explain why this is not what it means except to reference commentaries by John Walvoord and R.C.H. Lenski  whose explanations are convoluted and do not deal with the way "this generation" is used elsewhere in the Gospels.

You will notice that Matthew 24:34 expressly states that it's "this generation" that will not pass away until all the things listed in the previous verses take place. How significant is the use of "this" rather than the non-specific definite article "the" that is substituted by Hindson, LaHaye, and Ice? The use of "this" in the NT tells us that what's being identified is near either in time or distance. By changing "this" to "the," the entire meaning of the verse changes. Instead of a specific generation, it now reads as if it could be any generation. "This" is a near demonstrative, and as the name suggests points "to someone or something 'near,' in close proximity." Near demonstratives "appear as the singular word 'this' and its plural 'these.' The distant demonstratives, as their name suggests, appear as 'that' (singular), or 'those' (plural)." The near demonstrative "this" is used nearly 950 times in the NT, and it always refers "to something comparatively near at hand, just as ekeinos [that] refers to something comparatively farther away."


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: dispensationalism; eschatology; preterism
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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Other articles in this series:

Hiding the Truth at Liberty
Meet the Real Last Days Scoffers
When All Else Fails, Use the “A” Word—Anti-Semitism!
The Dark Side of Dispensational Theology— The Future Jewish Holocaust
Making the Bible Say Its Opposite—Taking a Closer Look at the Time Texts
Letting the Bible Speak for Itself—The Literal Meaning of “This Generation”

1 posted on 07/19/2005 7:07:10 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...

GRPL Ping

If anyone wishes to be placed on a Reformed Eschatology ping list, please drop me a note.


2 posted on 07/19/2005 7:12:02 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54
I believe Philip K Dick picked up on this several decades ago. He believed that we were still living in the first century and that Nixon was (literally) Nero. He thought that Christ would return while the generation of the hippies (which is the generation of the original Apostles) were still alive. Time had stopped, you see, and we were all victims of a great cosmic fraud.

Of course, Dick was somewhat unbalanced. And a Gnostic.

3 posted on 07/19/2005 7:13:39 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy
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To: topcat54

What? You mean men such as LaHaye and Lindsey are just trying to sell books? I'm floored! /sarcasm


4 posted on 07/19/2005 7:32:59 AM PDT by asformeandformyhouse (Former Embryo - Former Fetus - Recovering Sinner)
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To: topcat54

Thank you for the ping - this is sure to make some on this forum grumble.


5 posted on 07/19/2005 7:46:19 AM PDT by ItsOurTimeNow ("Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good." Rom 12v9)
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To: topcat54

Thessalonians - Chapter 2

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

***

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

***

1 Thessalonians - Chapter 5

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.

1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.


6 posted on 07/19/2005 7:50:18 AM PDT by Esther Ruth
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To: topcat54

Please place me on the Reformed Eschatology ping list if I'm not already there. You've certainly have made me a "believer".


7 posted on 07/19/2005 7:54:00 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: topcat54

topcat,
Please include my name on the Reformed Eschatology ping list. Many times I have looked for and enjoyed reading your posts. I appreciate your scholarship and the patience you have exhibited.


8 posted on 07/19/2005 8:08:13 AM PDT by suzyjaruki (From everlasting Thou art God, To endless years the same.)
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To: topcat54
Please place me on the Reformed Eschatology Ping List!

Thanks, NBF

9 posted on 07/19/2005 8:17:40 AM PDT by nobdysfool (Faith in Christ is the evidence of God's choosing, not the cause of it.)
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To: topcat54
I think it's pretty obvious that "this generation" in the context of Jesus telling His disciples about the future catastrophes preceding His coming refers to the generation that sees the beginnings of those catastrophes.

It's also pretty obvious that someone is seeking to vitiate the concept of the "end times". Why? For the same reason someone is trying to eliminate the concept that Jesus was a real person, homosexuality is wrong, and a host of other departures from the plain words and meaning of the Scriptures.

10 posted on 07/19/2005 8:26:51 AM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: William Terrell

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat024.html#top

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Revelation - Chapter 21

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a NEW earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were PASSED AWAY; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.





11 posted on 07/19/2005 9:05:12 AM PDT by Esther Ruth
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To: William Terrell
I think it's pretty obvious that "this generation" in the context of Jesus telling His disciples about the future catastrophes preceding His coming refers to the generation that sees the beginnings of those catastrophes.

It is not so obvious. What is "obvious" to you could merely be a hung up on a presupposition about how you interpret the things found in Matt. 24, etc.

What is obvious is that such a definition of "this generation" does not fit with how Jesus used it everywhere else in the gospels.

It's also pretty obvious that someone is seeking to vitiate the concept of the "end times".

Hardly. It's simply an attempt to be honest with the text, and to not jump to unwarranted conclusions about how things ought to be.

BTW, "end times" is not a phrase found in the Bible. The Bible speaks of things like the "last days" and make it plain that the days of Jesus and the apostles were included in the time of the "last days".

"God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;" (Heb. 1:1,2)

"Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour." (1 John 2:18)

"But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams." (Acts 2:14-17)

12 posted on 07/19/2005 9:29:24 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54

Well said.


13 posted on 07/19/2005 9:31:14 AM PDT by jkl1122
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To: topcat54

Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Is it your rigid definition of "this generation" that allows you to exclude Matt 24:30 from the "all these things" in verse 33 and 34?


14 posted on 07/19/2005 10:10:26 AM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: topcat54; William Terrell; suzyjaruki; nobdysfool
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Revelation 1:1 KJV

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Revelations 1:3 KJV

i wonder what one would see as the PLAIN MEANING of those texts, that is to say WITHOUT redefining the seven churches as seven different church types...and just where is the warrent for that type of redefinition in the text?

15 posted on 07/19/2005 10:24:00 AM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper)
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To: topcat54; xzins; bluepistolero

Thanks for the great links, Topcat.

Pinging a couple other seekers to the good news.


16 posted on 07/19/2005 10:28:57 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: William Terrell
It's also pretty obvious that someone is seeking to vitiate the concept of the "end times". Why? For the same reason someone is trying to eliminate the concept that Jesus was a real person, homosexuality is wrong, and a host of other departures from the plain words and meaning of the Scriptures.

You have just accused a fruitful and faithful servant of God of condoning sodomy, denying the Incarnation, and disbelieving the Bible. Simply because he disagrees with your elaborate multi-colored imaginary map to the future.

When the weak point of a theological system is threatened, all the strengths thereof rush to its defense -- and assume that the doubter does not share those same root convictions.

A wise man caught in the act of bearing false witness against his brother repents before God and apologizes to the sinned-against brother.

17 posted on 07/19/2005 10:34:36 AM PDT by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
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To: topcat54
So, you're saying that before the generation of Jesus passed away the last days came? What would you call the abomination of desolation in those days? Did the end come? Were the seven seals opened. Did heaven and Earth pass away? Did Judea flee into the mountains? Did a "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" come to pass before Jesus' generation ended?

Attention to this verse: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

What of that?

This verse: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Did this come to pass?

Also this: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The Son of Man was already there and talking to them, wasn't He?

How about this: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

And this:And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Did any of this happen during Jesus' generation?

Obviously, "this generation" means the generation that sees the beginning of these things.

18 posted on 07/19/2005 10:35:51 AM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: topcat54

Yep, nothin' but good times ahead. Golden age.


19 posted on 07/19/2005 10:36:28 AM PDT by Lexinom (http://www.abort73.com)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
What, I wonder, is the term "shortly" and "time is at hand" means to God in terms of the material sequential passing one moment after another?

Can you point to all the events that Jesus told His disciples about coming to pass in the generation fo Jesus? Read the passages, then show me in history where those passages happened.

If they did not happen as He said, then He is either a liar, false prophet or speaking of a time in the future. Which is it?

20 posted on 07/19/2005 10:41:44 AM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: TomSmedley
You have just accused a fruitful and faithful servant of God of condoning sodomy, denying the Incarnation, and disbelieving the Bible.

Does he condone sodomy? I don't know. Does he deny the Incarnation? I don't know.

But he is seriously off on his interpretation onf "this generation". If his interpretation were correct, then all the things (read the passages in question) Jesus told about would have come about in His time.

Does he believe in the Bible? I don't know.

21 posted on 07/19/2005 10:48:14 AM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: TomSmedley

Great tag.


22 posted on 07/19/2005 10:53:00 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: Seven_0
Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Is it your rigid definition of "this generation" that allows you to exclude Matt 24:30 from the "all these things" in verse 33 and 34?

No one excluded anything. We just have not jumped to unwarranted conclusions without examining the text.

If we allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, this is very reasonable.

"Even though many false witnesses came forward, they found none. But at last two false witnesses came forward and said, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days.' " And the high priest arose and said to Him, "Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?" But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, "I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!" Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, "He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy!" (Matt. 26:60-65)

Jesus said those words to the high priest and the other priests then living, not to some nondescript group hundred or thousands of years in the future.

Clouds are often used in the Bible to symbolically describe God's dwelling presence, esp. as He comes in judgment.

"He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters, Who makes the clouds His chariot, Who walks on the wings of the wind," (Psa. 104:3)

"Behold, he shall come up like clouds, And his chariots like a whirlwind. His horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are plundered!" (Jer. 4:13)

"For the day is near, Even the day of the Lord is near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles." (Eze. 30:3)

""I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed." (Dan. 7:13,14) {Note here how the Son of Man come up to the Ancient of Days in "the clouds of heaven".}

23 posted on 07/19/2005 11:00:15 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; topcat54

Thank you, Dr. Eckleburg. I believe that we have been in the "last days" since Jesus brought the Kingdom near. Thank you for the ping.


24 posted on 07/19/2005 11:00:16 AM PDT by bluepistolero
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To: William Terrell
So, you're saying that before the generation of Jesus passed away the last days came?

You can read the Bible for yourself. This is not magic. Are you denying that Heb. 1:1,2 says that Jesus appeared "in these last days"? Are you denying that John wrote about "the last hour" and said that antichrists had appeared?

What would you call the abomination of desolation in those days? Did the end come? Were the seven seals opened. Did heaven and Earth pass away? Did Judea flee into the mountains? Did a "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" come to pass before Jesus' generation ended?

Yep. It's all a matter of history. The Temple was destroyed after the "abomination" was set up. Unbelieving, apostate Israel was punished (Matt. 27:25). Believing Israel, the church, did flee from Jerusalem prior to the wrath of God being poured out by the hand of the Roman armies. Those whose eyes were opened and understood heeded Jesus words when they saw "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" (Luke 21:20,21).

What of that?

"The elect" were the believers of the 1st century who were being persecuted for the testimony of Christ (Luke 21:12). The days of persecution were shortened for their sake.

Did this [false christs] come to pass?

Yep. That was part of John's testimony that I quoted before. Just read the book of Acts. False prophets was already a problem.

The Son of Man was already there and talking to them, wasn't He?

Talking?? I don't see that in the text.

Did any of this happen during Jesus' generation?

Yep. Again, it's in the historical records.

Obviously, ...

There's that word again. "Obviously" there's some denial going on.

25 posted on 07/19/2005 11:16:59 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: bluepistolero

I am curious about your statement, "brought the Kingdom near". What do you mean by this?


26 posted on 07/19/2005 11:19:56 AM PDT by jkl1122
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To: William Terrell; topcat54; suzyjaruki; nobdysfool
What, I wonder, is the term "shortly" and "time is at hand" means to God in terms of the material sequential passing one moment after another?

Well, i've always preferred, with the Reformers, to let the text speak for itself, follow the clear meaning of the words, and where the text is not necessarily clear in one place (to the reader), to let other passages speak to the meaning of the 'unclear' passage.

In this particular case, the word translated as shortly is ejn tavcei...you can find and download the Greek font that i am using here in the event that you don't have it...

It is defined in Moulton's Analytical Greek Lexicon as:
tavco", ew", tov,...seiftness, speed, quickness, celerity; ejn tavcei, with speed, quickly, speedily; soon, shortly, Lu 18.8; Ac 25.4; hastily, immediately, Ac. 12.7 et. al.

"the time is at hand" in Rev 1:3 is the phrase oJ ga;r kairo;" ejgguv".

kairov" usually means "time" or "season" in the NT. It is the word ejgguv" that is of concern.

With respect to time, Moulton defines the word as

near, as to place, Lu 19.11 et al; close at hand, Ro 10.8; near, in respect of ready interposition, Phi 4.5; near, as to time, Mat 24.32,33, et al;

The most basic reading of the text indicates that the event(s) God speaks of is soon to happen. It is indicated by the context as well...why would God have John write immediately and send to seven churches if the events were distant future?

27 posted on 07/19/2005 11:37:39 AM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper)
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To: ItsOurTimeNow

Is head shaking a type of grumbling?


28 posted on 07/19/2005 11:41:25 AM PDT by Quix (GOD'S LOVE IS INCREDIBLE . . . BUT MUST BE RECEIVED TO . . .)
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To: Esther Ruth

The Word is wonderful.

Thanks.


29 posted on 07/19/2005 11:42:10 AM PDT by Quix (GOD'S LOVE IS INCREDIBLE . . . BUT MUST BE RECEIVED TO . . .)
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To: Esther Ruth; William Terrell; topcat54
Here is an interesting view on the Olivet Discourse.

Abonination of Desolation

If you go pass v18, which you did not, it states that "unless those days had been shorten..." (vs 23) "false Christs" would arise trying to mislead the elect(vs 24). I though the "Anti-Christ" already had. I'd especially call your attention to his point in Luke where it states "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies.." (Luke 21:20) which I found interesting.

To be perfectly honest, the Olivet Discourse always was a muddled mess in my mind simply because of the sequences of the verses. Topcat's author and the above post in my mind provides a reasonable and historic interpretation to the Olivet Discourse. How you are fitting Revelation 21 with the Olivet Discourse baffles me as it is the establishment of the new Heaven and Earth.

30 posted on 07/19/2005 11:43:17 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: topcat54
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

31 posted on 07/19/2005 11:50:18 AM PDT by Quester (When in doubt ... trust God!)
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Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

To: William Terrell

So you are not willing to repent and apologize? I've painted myself into corners before, and worry about you. The end stages of obsessive error are really ugly.


33 posted on 07/19/2005 11:55:07 AM PDT by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
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To: Quix

SO!!! Wonderful - the Good News!

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away ALL tears from their eyes; and there shall be NO MORE DEATH!!! neither SORROW, nor CRYING, neither shall there be any more PAIN: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make ALL things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are TRUE and faithful.

People Get Ready!!! JESUS IS Coming Soon!!!


34 posted on 07/19/2005 12:03:16 PM PDT by Esther Ruth (Every Knee shall bow, Every Tongue Confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!!!!)
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To: Esther Ruth

Getting increasingly . . . tired . . . of this sin soaked globe.

Eager to see my Lord face to face and to see Him cleanse this planet utterly.


35 posted on 07/19/2005 12:07:39 PM PDT by Quix (GOD'S LOVE IS INCREDIBLE . . . BUT MUST BE RECEIVED TO . . .)
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To: ItsOurTimeNow

Indeed. It's not going to make the folks happy who must make their eschatology line up with the latest edition of the Jerusalem Post, or who find it in the movies or fiction books.


36 posted on 07/19/2005 12:14:53 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: Esther Ruth
People Get Ready!!! JESUS IS Coming Soon!!!

By "soon" you mean, what? Tomorrow? Next Week? Next year? Within the next ten years?

The Bible clearly teaches that Christ will return to raise His people and judge with world. When you start throwing around the word "soon" indiscriminately, you demonstrate that you do not understand what the Bible says about the timing (very little) of the second coming.

Folks like Hal Lindsey and Chuck Smith used to define "soon" to mean by the end of the 1980s. Every "sign" pointed to the "obvious" fact that the rapture would happen two decades ago.

And let's not forget former generations of datesetters like William Miller who said Jesus would return in 1844.

How is your crystal ball any better than Hal's?

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." (Matt. 24:36-39)

37 posted on 07/19/2005 12:34:53 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54

All in His time, and all according to His perfect will.

I make no attempt to discern when or where that fateful hour will strike. How dare I attempt to elevate myself to such a height? How presumptuous of us to think that we can "predict" such things!

Less of me, more of Him always brings about comfort. Fretting over time-lines of "end-times" prophesy just raises anxiety.

Always reminds me of those people at work who stress out and work extra hard "when the boss is coming - look busy!" Me, I keep doing what I've been doing.


38 posted on 07/19/2005 12:50:42 PM PDT by ItsOurTimeNow ("Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good." Rom 12v9)
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To: ItsOurTimeNow
I keep doing what I've been doing

Yes, because the truth is the fateful hour for each of us is unknown.

39 posted on 07/19/2005 12:56:01 PM PDT by suzyjaruki (From everlasting Thou art God, To endless years the same.)
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To: suzyjaruki

Amen


40 posted on 07/19/2005 1:01:53 PM PDT by ItsOurTimeNow ("Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good." Rom 12v9)
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To: ItsOurTimeNow
How presumptuous of us to think that we can "predict" such things!

But you also have the "dreams and visions" crowd who allegedly gets their information from secret revelations that God is supposedly giving to a select few in these "end times". In many ways they are worse off than the traditionalist date setters because they are relying on "voices" in their head.

There's really no good way to respond to their silliness other than to point out 1) their "prophecies" are so non-specific that they amount to nothing, or 2) point out the many failed predictions of the past, some from the same "dreams and visions" crowd.

41 posted on 07/19/2005 1:05:35 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54

Zechariah 12:3: And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

***

ALL the PEOPLE of the earth will be gathered together against it (Jerusalem)! They are going to come up against Israel, God's Chosen, The Apple of His Eye and try to take something that DOES NOT BELONG TO THEM any way they can. They will then attempt - attempt to reign in a NEW ONE WORLD Government, a New Leader to rule over all the Earth and they will ATTEMPT (but fail) to bring Peace to the World. Those who do this to Israel and God's Chosen, Israel, those who curse them, will themselves be Cursed by God.

Yes we are very close!!


42 posted on 07/19/2005 1:08:05 PM PDT by Esther Ruth (Every Knee shall bow, Every Tongue Confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!!!!)
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To: topcat54

Acts 2:17-18: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:


43 posted on 07/19/2005 1:11:38 PM PDT by Esther Ruth (Every Knee shall bow, Every Tongue Confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!!!!)
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To: Esther Ruth; topcat54
Acts 2:17-18: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy

This is Peter quoting a prophecy in Joel 2, which Peter himself said was being fulfilled there at Pentecost. This has nothing to do with today.
44 posted on 07/19/2005 1:15:44 PM PDT by jkl1122
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To: ItsOurTimeNow; topcat54
Fretting over time-lines of "end-times" prophesy just raises anxiety.

Exactly what temporal powers labor to accomplish.

45 posted on 07/19/2005 1:22:15 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: jkl1122

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

==> Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; BLOOD, and FIRE, and vapour of smoke:

==> Act 2:20 The SUN shall be turned into DARKENESS, and the MOON into BLOOD, before that GREAT and notable day of the Lord come:

***

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;


46 posted on 07/19/2005 1:24:34 PM PDT by Esther Ruth (Every Knee shall bow, Every Tongue Confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!!!!)
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To: Esther Ruth

I will stick with what Peter said, since he was inspired by the Holy Spirit. The prophecy that he was quoting was from Joel 2, and it was being fulfilled at that time.


47 posted on 07/19/2005 1:28:09 PM PDT by jkl1122
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To: Esther Ruth
Evidently you need to read the New Testament to get God's complete perspective on thie things of which you wish to write:

"Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar-- for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband." Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free." (Gal. 4:-21-31)

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel." (Heb. 12:22-24)

God delights in His heavenly Jerusalem, the Church. We are the apple of His eye.

Jerusalem below represents what is fleshly and in bondage.

"For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh," (Phil. 3:3)

"Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, 'The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,'" (1 Peter 2:7)

Zechariah 12:3: And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Funny how people never quote the next verse: In that day," says the Lord, "I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, ..."

Horses and riders? One could see where this was fulfilled long ago in the days of Messiah's first appearance when horses and riders were prominent.

48 posted on 07/19/2005 1:30:13 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past; ohioWfan; Tribune7; Tolkien; GrandEagle; Right in Wisconsin; Dataman; ..
Discussion of "time". No its not boring, its actually interesting.


Revelation 4:11
See my profile for info

49 posted on 07/19/2005 1:33:55 PM PDT by wallcrawlr (http://www.bionicear.com)
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To: jkl1122

Did this happen at Pentecost?

==> Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; BLOOD, and FIRE, and vapour of smoke:

==> Act 2:20 The SUN shall be turned into DARKENESS, and the MOON into BLOOD, before that GREAT and notable day of the Lord come:


50 posted on 07/19/2005 1:35:02 PM PDT by Esther Ruth (Every Knee shall bow, Every Tongue Confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!!!!)
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