Posted on 07/19/2005 7:07:09 AM PDT by topcat54
From Gary DeMar's multi-part response to Ed Hindson's article in the May 2005 issue of the National Liberty Journal on the topic of "The New Last Days Scoffers".
When Jesus answered His disciples' questions about "when these things" related to the temple's destruction would be and what signs would indicate His coming, He said, "this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" (Matt. 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32). "This generation," therefore, is the timing key. If we can know what the Bible means by "this generation," we can determine the timing of the events Jesus describes. Every time "this generation" is used in the Gospels, it always refers to the generation of people who were alive when Jesus spoke. "This generation" never means a future generation. Thomas Ice, an associate professor of Religion at Liberty University and the Liberty Theological Seminary, in a radio debate with me, admitted that each use of "this generation" in the Gospels, except the one used in Matthew 24:34, refers to the generation to whom Jesus was speaking. In his written debate with Kenneth L. Gentry, Ice writes: "It is true that every other use of 'this generation' in Matthew (11:16; 12:41-42, 45; 23:36) refers to Christ's contemporaries, but that is determined by observation from each of their contexts, not from the phrase itself." This means that seventeen times it means Jesus' contemporaries, and one time it means a future generation. William Lane disagrees:
"[T]his generation" clearly designates the contemporaries of Jesus (see on Chs. 8:12, 38; 9:19) and there is no consideration from the context which lends support to any other proposal. Jesus solemnly affirms that the generation contemporary with his disciples will witness the fulfillment of his prophetic word, culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem and the dismantling of the Temple.
Like he does with Acts 2:16, Ice must add words to Matthew 24:34 to get it to say what he needs it to say. For example, in Charting the End Times, Ice and LaHaye reconstruct Matthew 24:34 to read this way: "The generation that 'sees' these things will not pass away till all is fulfilled." In the LaHaye Prophecy Study Bible, of which Ed Hindson is one of the editors, the verse is given this treatment: "[T]he future generation that will live to see all the signs listed in the previous verses fulfilled in their lifetime" will not pass away until all is fulfilled. The near demonstrative "this" is removed, and from 5 to 19 words are added to make the verse refer to a future generation. And this is interpreting the Bible literally? Hindson writes the following in the Liberty Bible Commentary:
[T]he previously listed signs will continue to multiply throughout the Church Age and reach their ultimate climax at the end of the age in the generation of those who will live to see the entire matter fulfilled in their lifetime.
There is nothing in the entire context of the Olivet Discourse that says anything like this. Dr. Hindson is reading his dispensationalism into the chapter. William Sanford LaSor writes, "If 'this generation' is taken literally, all of the predictions were to take place within the life-span of those living at that time." D.A. Carson takes a similar position: "[This generation] can only with the greatest difficulty be made to mean anything other than the generation living when Jesus spoke. . . . [T]o make 'this generation' refer to . . . the generation of believers alive when eschatological events start to happen, is highly artificial." There you have it. If Matthew 24:34 is interpreted literally, it refers to the generation to whom Jesus was speaking.
Matthew 24:33 tells us as much: "even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door" (Matt. 24:33). The first use of "you" certainly refers to Jesus' first-century audience. So why wouldn't the second use of "you" refer to the same audience? Hindson comments that this verse "has caused some to speculate that these predicted events only relate to the coming destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, within the disciples' lifetime." He doesn't explain why this is not what it means except to reference commentaries by John Walvoord and R.C.H. Lenski whose explanations are convoluted and do not deal with the way "this generation" is used elsewhere in the Gospels.
You will notice that Matthew 24:34 expressly states that it's "this generation" that will not pass away until all the things listed in the previous verses take place. How significant is the use of "this" rather than the non-specific definite article "the" that is substituted by Hindson, LaHaye, and Ice? The use of "this" in the NT tells us that what's being identified is near either in time or distance. By changing "this" to "the," the entire meaning of the verse changes. Instead of a specific generation, it now reads as if it could be any generation. "This" is a near demonstrative, and as the name suggests points "to someone or something 'near,' in close proximity." Near demonstratives "appear as the singular word 'this' and its plural 'these.' The distant demonstratives, as their name suggests, appear as 'that' (singular), or 'those' (plural)." The near demonstrative "this" is used nearly 950 times in the NT, and it always refers "to something comparatively near at hand, just as ekeinos [that] refers to something comparatively farther away."
Does he condone sodomy? I don't know. Does he deny the Incarnation? I don't know.
But he is seriously off on his interpretation onf "this generation". If his interpretation were correct, then all the things (read the passages in question) Jesus told about would have come about in His time.
Does he believe in the Bible? I don't know. 
Great tag.
Is it your rigid definition of "this generation" that allows you to exclude Matt 24:30 from the "all these things" in verse 33 and 34?
No one excluded anything. We just have not jumped to unwarranted conclusions without examining the text.
If we allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, this is very reasonable.
"Even though many false witnesses came forward, they found none. But at last two false witnesses came forward and said, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days.' " And the high priest arose and said to Him, "Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?" But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, "I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!" Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, "He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy!" (Matt. 26:60-65)
Jesus said those words to the high priest and the other priests then living, not to some nondescript group hundred or thousands of years in the future.
Clouds are often used in the Bible to symbolically describe God's dwelling presence, esp. as He comes in judgment.
"He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters, Who makes the clouds His chariot, Who walks on the wings of the wind," (Psa. 104:3)
"Behold, he shall come up like clouds, And his chariots like a whirlwind. His horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are plundered!" (Jer. 4:13)
"For the day is near, Even the day of the Lord is near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles." (Eze. 30:3)
""I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed." (Dan. 7:13,14) {Note here how the Son of Man come up to the Ancient of Days in "the clouds of heaven".}
Thank you, Dr. Eckleburg. I believe that we have been in the "last days" since Jesus brought the Kingdom near. Thank you for the ping.
You can read the Bible for yourself. This is not magic. Are you denying that Heb. 1:1,2 says that Jesus appeared "in these last days"? Are you denying that John wrote about "the last hour" and said that antichrists had appeared?
What would you call the abomination of desolation in those days? Did the end come? Were the seven seals opened. Did heaven and Earth pass away? Did Judea flee into the mountains? Did a "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" come to pass before Jesus' generation ended?
Yep. It's all a matter of history. The Temple was destroyed after the "abomination" was set up. Unbelieving, apostate Israel was punished (Matt. 27:25). Believing Israel, the church, did flee from Jerusalem prior to the wrath of God being poured out by the hand of the Roman armies. Those whose eyes were opened and understood heeded Jesus words when they saw "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" (Luke 21:20,21).
What of that?
"The elect" were the believers of the 1st century who were being persecuted for the testimony of Christ (Luke 21:12). The days of persecution were shortened for their sake.
Did this [false christs] come to pass?
Yep. That was part of John's testimony that I quoted before. Just read the book of Acts. False prophets was already a problem.
The Son of Man was already there and talking to them, wasn't He?
Talking?? I don't see that in the text.
Did any of this happen during Jesus' generation?
Yep. Again, it's in the historical records.
Obviously, ...
There's that word again. "Obviously" there's some denial going on.
I am curious about your statement, "brought the Kingdom near". What do you mean by this?
Well, i've always preferred, with the Reformers, to let the text speak for itself, follow the clear meaning of the words, and where the text is not necessarily clear in one place (to the reader), to let other passages speak to the meaning of the 'unclear' passage.
In this particular case, the word translated as shortly is ejn tavcei...you can find and download the Greek font that i am using here in the event that you don't have it...
It is defined in Moulton's Analytical Greek Lexicon as:
tavco", ew", tov,...seiftness, speed, quickness, celerity; ejn tavcei, with speed, quickly, speedily; soon, shortly, Lu 18.8; Ac 25.4; hastily, immediately, Ac. 12.7 et. al.
"the time is at hand" in Rev 1:3 is the phrase oJ ga;r kairo;" ejgguv".
kairov" usually means "time" or "season" in the NT. It is the word ejgguv" that is of concern.
With respect to time, Moulton defines the word as
near, as to place, Lu 19.11 et al; close at hand, Ro 10.8; near, in respect of ready interposition, Phi 4.5; near, as to time, Mat 24.32,33, et al;
The most basic reading of the text indicates that the event(s) God speaks of is soon to happen. It is indicated by the context as well...why would God have John write immediately and send to seven churches if the events were distant future?
Is head shaking a type of grumbling?
The Word is wonderful.
Thanks.
If you go pass v18, which you did not, it states that "unless those days had been shorten..." (vs 23) "false Christs" would arise trying to mislead the elect(vs 24). I though the "Anti-Christ" already had. I'd especially call your attention to his point in Luke where it states "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies.." (Luke 21:20) which I found interesting.
To be perfectly honest, the Olivet Discourse always was a muddled mess in my mind simply because of the sequences of the verses. Topcat's author and the above post in my mind provides a reasonable and historic interpretation to the Olivet Discourse. How you are fitting Revelation 21 with the Olivet Discourse baffles me as it is the establishment of the new Heaven and Earth.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
So you are not willing to repent and apologize? I've painted myself into corners before, and worry about you. The end stages of obsessive error are really ugly.
SO!!! Wonderful - the Good News!
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away ALL tears from their eyes; and there shall be NO MORE DEATH!!! neither SORROW, nor CRYING, neither shall there be any more PAIN: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make ALL things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are TRUE and faithful.
People Get Ready!!! JESUS IS Coming Soon!!!
Getting increasingly . . . tired . . . of this sin soaked globe.
Eager to see my Lord face to face and to see Him cleanse this planet utterly.
Indeed. It's not going to make the folks happy who must make their eschatology line up with the latest edition of the Jerusalem Post, or who find it in the movies or fiction books.
By "soon" you mean, what? Tomorrow? Next Week? Next year? Within the next ten years?
The Bible clearly teaches that Christ will return to raise His people and judge with world. When you start throwing around the word "soon" indiscriminately, you demonstrate that you do not understand what the Bible says about the timing (very little) of the second coming.
Folks like Hal Lindsey and Chuck Smith used to define "soon" to mean by the end of the 1980s. Every "sign" pointed to the "obvious" fact that the rapture would happen two decades ago.
And let's not forget former generations of datesetters like William Miller who said Jesus would return in 1844.
How is your crystal ball any better than Hal's?
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." (Matt. 24:36-39)
All in His time, and all according to His perfect will.
I make no attempt to discern when or where that fateful hour will strike. How dare I attempt to elevate myself to such a height? How presumptuous of us to think that we can "predict" such things!
Less of me, more of Him always brings about comfort. Fretting over time-lines of "end-times" prophesy just raises anxiety.
Always reminds me of those people at work who stress out and work extra hard "when the boss is coming - look busy!" Me, I keep doing what I've been doing.
Yes, because the truth is the fateful hour for each of us is unknown.
Amen
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.