Posted on 08/01/2005 8:16:45 PM PDT by buckeyesrule
It's probably easier to be a four-point pastor. But it is not sound doctrine, IMO. It's self-contradictory.
What God wills comes to pass. Period. We should be rejoicing in that fact, not challenging it.
How is that a personal attack, Doc? He says he's troubled by the view, which seems to be more prevalent among young people newly infatuated with Reformed doctrine, who insist God cannot love the reprobate. Where is he attacking anyone's character, credibility, etc?
I believe that A.W. teaches that the attribute of God is Goodness and that mercy, grace, love, long-suffering, etc. flow from Goodness but that each of the aspects of His Goodness are given as He wills and not all of His creatures receive all that flow from His Goodness, nor do the creatures, necessarily, receive what is given in the same measure.
Again, I challenge you to name ONE Calvinist who says God has no "love of any sort for the reprobate."
This disagreement has come about over semantics. But the result is to divide the Reformed. Not good.
He obviously does extend grace to everybody in the form of common grace.
I think the argument here is over word usage.
It is very clear in Scripture that contrary to our PC version of God, He HATES SINNERS.
However, he is also a God of love. It is a seeming contradiction, but it really isn't.
Now, I say God extends some measure of grace...he restrains his wrath against sinners because of mercy. I just am ancy about using the word love to describe this because the love isn't very loving to me if all God does is say "I won't let you go to hell quite yet" without doing anything to save them.
It is a measure of grace, but not love. God is love, but his full love is manifested in his saving grace.
God does not have love for the non-elect. Show me where Scripture says he does.
He has grace and mercy, but mercy and grace is not the same as full-orbed love.
It is reformed systematic theology, when teaching about the attributes of God, that Goodness is the attribute not Love.
It seems as though, MacArthur views Love as the attribute of God and that Goodness flows from Love.
Is that what you see?
It's a phony argument, and MacArthur knows it.
If "love" means the rain and sun and a satellite dish on your TV, yes, God loves the whole world. It's His creation. God rightly loves what He made, all for His glory.
See Ksen's post #233.
If "love" means saving faith in Jesus Christ, God does not love all the world, because He created some for glory and some for the fire.
Excellent post, SJ. Bump for the precision of God's word.
I sure don't believe he is a sell-out. He just has a different view. I still think MacArthur is great.
I think this is the logical effect of being a four-point Calvinist. Ultimately, it is self-contradictory.
But four outta five ain't bad. 8~)
Keeping in mind that a four-pointer is never in disagreement about the 'P', your logic would be correct.
As you know, I disagree with the 'T', so the 'U', 'L', 'I' must also fail.
I simple do not think that everything that happens is what God desires.
To quote the Pastor of the RPC we attended, "There is no one in Hell whom Jesus loved."
And FWIW, I believe if I had the time or inclination to dig around, I could find more than one such quote from some of the dear departed GRPLs.
We could start with John 3:16, but I'm sure you will tell me that that verse doesn't mean what it says.
"How often would I have gathered together thy children. This is expressive of indignation rather than of compassion"
How could God express "indignation" for something He planned and ordained? Seems He would be expressing satisfaction that, for once, people did what they were preordained to do.
I'd have to say that any direct action of God, especially the creation, would have to qualify as His active will.
Then it follows that whatever flows from the Creative act happens because God directly willed for it to happen. If He didn't then it wouldn't be part of Creation.
Jesus tells a story about a man counting the cost before he builds a tower. I think that's a good illustration of God's Creation. He didn't Create without a plan. And He didn't have only part of a plan with the blank bits to be filled in by men's choices. When God created He had a full set of blueprints to work from.
So if the above is the case, and I believe that it is, then everything that happens happens as part of God's direct planning or ordination. Of course it's easy to believe that when the good things are happening. But if we believe it then we need to be consistent and believe it about the not so good things that happen as well.
Have a blessed night Buggman.
"So if the above is the case, and I believe that it is, then everything that happens happens as part of God's direct planning or ordination."
That being the case God would not be surprised or indignant when all works out according to His plan.
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