Posted on 08/01/2005 8:16:45 PM PDT by buckeyesrule
Seems to me, if the logical extension leads to an untenable conclusion, that should call into question the belief that it springs from. Wouldn't you agree?
Your choice. But, you cannot say that I haven't named a non-Reformed believer who believe that his eternal security rests with his own efforts. Whether or not you bother to verify my statement matters little to me. It is a true statement, and it lends credence to the statement that non-Reformed believers do believe that they are responsible for their eternal security.
Logical extensions are often not logical. If they were, the person making a statement, would simply go all the way to what someone else claimed was the logical extension.
Some 'logical extensions' are logical; many are not; so no, I wouldn't agree and most people familiar with logic wouldn't, either.
You have a link?
***Basically he's no Rick Warren***
So Rick Warren is infallible?
I think that is a logical conclusion, after all your salvation depends on you making a right choice with your free will, so do you believe God removes your free will from you after you are saved. Do you believe you will never be lost NO MATTER what you do?
Calvinists are consistent both salvation and preservation of the elect are 100% God
Actually Dr E was the one that brought him up not me.
Basically he's no Rick Warren.
Praise the Lord ! No ear tickling going on.
Ricks last big convert ( the murderer) is now a muslim. So that book must be LOADED with truth huh?
The fact of the matter is, Arminian theology, and it's kissing cousin, the "free will" camp ultimately MUST believe their security rests on their own efforts, because they believe it was their own efforts which gained them salvation *(their free will choice to believe on Christ).
Of course this is incorrect.
He/She who is a believer has 'obeyed" the gospel message and ... come to Jesus ... repented ... confessed ... etc.
That is what God has required in response to His offer of salvation.
From the scriptures, God ... makes a new creation ... forgives one's sin debt ... grants a new heart of flesh ... grants everlasting life ... seals the believer unto the day of redemption ... etc.
By His own Word, ... what God has done for us in salvation ... is irrevocable.
So one either believes that God will do what He has said ... or one does not.
That one believes that he/she chose to come to Christ has no bearing upon whether he/she has the faith to believe that God will do all He said that He will do.
It is not necessary that any believer has plumbed the depths of the understanding of the issue of predestination ... to know that God has irrevocably saved him/her.
One, simply, has to have placed one's complete trust in God ... even as a child would.
Jesus says that it is this childlike faith which saves ... irrevocably.Mark 10:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.We are not saved because we are wise, or learned, ... or because we understand all of the great mysteries of God's work.
14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
We are saved ... irrevocably ... because we have placed our trust and faith in He Who has promised to save us ...
So long as we believe that He will do what He has said ... our souls shall be at rest.
Of course, as always, ... one can find examples of incorrect theology among christian ... whatever persuasion they may be.
It is also worth noting that Jesus sets forth humility as that quality which designates greatness in the kingdom of heaven ...Matthew 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Ricks last big convert ( the murderer) is now a muslim. So that book must be LOADED with truth huh?
Did the murderer confess Christ ?
I had not heard that he had.
My understanding was that the potential victim had used Rick's book to get the murderer to think about what he was doing ... and that he eventually let her go.
Is there more to that story ?
While you and I may disagree on precisely how one come to be a believer, at least you rightly understand that God keeps the believer irrevocably. Jesus Himself stated that He would lose none of those whom the Father has given Him. As far as I'm concerned, that alone settle the question.
Quester: "We are saved ... irrevocably ... because WE have placed OUR trust and faith in He Who has promised to save us ...”
Somehow this subtle difference seems to be a continuing source of confusion. Don’t you see a problem with your statement?
The question becomes this: Who enabled you to place your trust in Christ? You? Or God?
The proper understanding of that question will clear up a lot of confusion.
Let's examine that statement. If a logical extension of an argument or premise is truly logical, it cannot therefore be illogical. That in itself would violate the law of non-contradiction, a foundational principle of logic.
Therefore, if taking a premise to its logical conclusion leads to an illogical or implausible (obviously faulty) conclusion, then there is every reason to believe that the beginning premise is faulty. One cannot just dimiss the conclusion and hold to the premise, and be consistent. This holds true in spiritual things as well as temporal things. There is nothing about spiritual things which suspend the rules of clear logic.
It is incorrect theology, but that doesn't mean that there are not many who incorrectly believe that they are charged with maintaining their own salvation, that their ultimate end is in their hands, not God's.
I also find it necessary to argue against this belief.
It is pervasive, I am afraid.
As I pointed out to ctd, I know of one on another forum who not only insists that this is the case, but actively teaches others, and is supposedly finishing a manuscript for a book to be published to teach this incorrect theology. He is not alone in his belief. His main problem is predestination and election. He hates those doctrines, and will stop at nothing to debunk them.
And so our work goes on ...
I came to an understanding of the fact of the irrevocableness of God's salvation through an unabashedly honest presentation of the gospel (by a faithful christian brother) ... and confirmed by my own biblical study.
It is my belief that many in christian leadership soft-pedal the teaching of the preservation of the saints ... because they can ocassionally utilize their congregants' fear of losing their salvation ... to manipulate them toward the pursuit of some personal agenda.
It is sad, but it is true. I have seen it.
Most of these christian leaders never touch upon the issue of predestination and/or election ... it simply is of no use to them.
Jesus Himself stated that He would lose none of those whom the Father has given Him. As far as I'm concerned, that alone settles the question.
Indeed ... thanks be to God that we can study the scriptures for ourselves.John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
---------------------------------------------------------
1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
”…the "free will" camp ultimately MUST believe their security rests on their own efforts…”
Quester: "We are saved ... irrevocably ... because WE have placed OUR trust and faith in He Who has promised to save us ...”
Somehow this subtle difference seems to be a continuing source of confusion. Don’t you see a problem with your statement?
I have no problem with the statement because it is consistent with the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles in the New Testament.
We have been commanded to place our trust and faith in Jesus ...Matthew 11:28 Come unto Me ...All of these evangelistic appeals are for men and women to do something ... believe, repent, confess, be reconciled, come ... etc.
Acts 3:19 - Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out..
Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Romans 10:9 That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ ...
2 Corinthians 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, ... be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
I am also helped in my understanding through my biblical belief that every good gift comes from God, ... including my faith (per Ephesians 2:8-10).
I know that I am not responsible for my salvation, for salvation is a good thing, ... and, therefore, ... it is a gift from God.
Likewise, I know that I am not responsible for my faith, for faith is a good thing, ... and, therefore, ... it is a gift from God.
Any further wrangling has only to do with when I received that gift (faith).
I choose to not quibble over such an issue.
I believe that, from a kingdom standpoint, ... there are much bigger fish to fry.
God bless ...
Quester: "We are saved ... irrevocably ... because WE have placed OUR trust and faith in He Who has promised to save us ...”
The question becomes this: Who enabled you to place your trust in Christ? You? Or God?
The proper understanding of that question will clear up a lot of confusion.
See post #915.
***And for good measure, let's use the King James Version***
We would need to look at in in the KJV to get that reading. As you probably know, the older manuscripts have aparchn (firstfruits) instead of ap archß (From the beginning) - which the Thessalonians certainly were (i.e. firstfruits of the gentiles). Now, granted, there are certainly good reasons for both readings, but in either case it would be inadvisable to build a theological argument of a disputed reading.
***They are condemned because they are sinners.***
Certainly true, (... he that believeth not is condemned already,). Imagine a person drowning in the sea. Suddenly the Coast Guard appears. They throw the person in the water a lifeline. The person grabs it and is hauled aboard.
Could this person ever rightfully claim the he or she saved themselves? Could he or she have saved themselves if the Coast Guard had not come along? Conversely, imagine if the person refused to grab the line. They were as good as dead anyway - but by refusing to grab the line they lost the one chance they had to be saved.
We can not escape the conditional clause in this passage...
"The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing,
BECAUSE...
they REFUSED to love the truth and so be saved.
THEREFORE...
God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
IN ORDER THAT...
all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
(As a side note: why would Paul even speak of the POSSIBILITY of the unelect being "saved" in the portion of the passage "they REFUSED to love the truth and so be saved."? Is it not utterly pointless to even speak of the possibility?)
***Faith is the work of the Holy Spirit.***
I totally agree. Faith is a gift.
***You are missing this most greatest assurance, PM. It is all of God.***
Thank you for this expression of concern for me. It is very sweet and I honestly appreciate the heart that it evidences.
I do have great assurance that Christ not only saved me but is carring me though this life. I ran from Him for a long time but He finally caught me. Even now He brings me back in line when I start to go astray. I am fully in agreement that salvation is all of God. I was drowning in the sea and if He had not come for me I would have surely perished.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"
*** that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.***
Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind."
Some of the Pharisees near him heard these things, and said to him, "Are we also blind?"
Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, 'We see,' your guilt remains."
BTW - earlier you were looing for a verse that would give biblical grounds for phrases such as "accpet Christ" etc. What do you thing of the following verse?
"Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house."
Specifically. "What must I DO..." answered by the Apostle with ""Believe in the Lord Jesus..."
Exactly. After four years here, I still don't know if Arminians can't see this clear distinction, or if they just don't want to admit to it.
If a person must "accept" God's offer of salvation in order to be saved, then salvation ultimately lies with the creature's agreeable choice and not with the Creator's predestining will.
Free-willism is at the heart of so much that is contrary to the Scriptural nature of God and spawns all sorts of misguided humanistic belief systems, like Transactional Analysis. Doesn't this sound familiar?
TA says the the human ego is made up of the Adult and the Child, and the key to mental health is to get us to become as much Adult as possible.
The Arminian believes this. They appear to assume that within the individual himself is both Parent and Child, and that salvation requires us to overcome our childish natures and become the Parent so that we can understand the wisdom in "accepting" God's "offer" of grace.
Whereas the Reformed believe that man is the child and God is the Parent, and that everything comes from the Father.
Most Arminians miss this point, just like most of us Calvinists missed it when we were Arminians.
I've always thought an excellent place to understand human ignorance of God and misconceptions about life itself is in the study of humanistic psychology, especially as practiced by Jung and his ilk.
The link I sent has many fascinating links at the bottom of the page. One is particular is titled:
That's what it all comes down to -- the human trinity.
Exactly. After four years here, I still don't know if Arminians can't see this clear distinction, or if they just don't want to admit to it.
If a person must "accept" God's offer of salvation in order to be saved, then salvation ultimately lies with the creature's agreeable choice and not with the Creator's predestining will.
Free-willism is at the heart of so much that is contrary to the Scriptural nature of God and spawns all sorts of misguided humanistic belief systems, like Transactional Analysis. Doesn't this sound familiar?
TRANSACTIONAL ANALYSIS
TA says the the human ego is made up of the Adult and the Child, and the key to mental health is to get us to become as much Adult as possible.
The Arminian believes this. They appear to assume that within the individual himself is both Parent and Child, and that salvation requires us to overcome our childish natures and become the Parent so that we can understand the wisdom in "accepting" God's "offer" of grace.
Whereas the Reformed believe that man is the child and God is the Parent, and that everything comes from the Father.
Most Arminians miss this point, just like most of us Calvinists missed it when we were Arminians.
I've always thought an excellent place to understand human ignorance of God and misconceptions about life itself is in the study of humanistic psychology, especially as practiced by Jung and his ilk.
The link I sent has many fascinating links at the bottom of the page. One is particular is titled:
TRANSACTIONAL ANALYSIS AND THE TRIUNE BRAIN
That's what it all comes down to -- the human trinity.
All so much human philosophy ... and without any Biblical basis.
Can you find support anywhere in the scriptures for the type of statements you make here ...If a person must "accept" God's offer of salvation in order to be saved, then salvation ultimately lies with the creature's agreeable choice and not with the Creator's predestining will.
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