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Decision Time for Mainline Lutherans
The Christian Century ^ | August 09, 2005 | John Dart

Posted on 08/02/2005 10:54:57 AM PDT by wallcrawlr

The nation's largest Lutheran denomination will finally speak with a collective voice this month on whether to allow gay and lesbian pastors and on whether same-sex couples may receive rites of blessing. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, whose biennial Churchwide Assembly meets August 8-14 in Orlando, is one of the last mainline church bodies to act on the controversies. Few figure that the ELCA's debates will end in Orlando.

Preconvention estimates are that it is unlikely two-thirds of the 1,000 delegates—the required margin for approval—will vote to open pulpits to gay pastors, despite a proposal by ELCA leaders that "exceptions" could be created "for the sake of outreach, ministry and the commitment to continuing dialogue."

A second proposal, which needs only a bare majority to pass, says that ELCA policy should bar blessings for couples in same-sex relationships in keeping with a 1993 pastoral letter from ELCA bishops saying that no basis can be found in scripture for such rites.

However, some conservatives complain that the rest of that resolution could be viewed as permitting informal blessings. The proposal asks members to "trust pastors and congregations to discern ways to provide faithful pastoral care to same-sex couples."

The efforts by ELCA leaders to address gay issues falls short of what legions of Lutherans on the left and right say they expect of the denomination. Traditionalists are looking for policies that clamp down on sporadic, unauthorized ordinations of openly gay clergy. Progressives contend that faithful, nonheterosexual Christians are discriminated against when they are denied full and equal opportunities in the church.

The nearly 5-million-member ELCA, created in 1987 from a three-way church merger, has eluded convention showdowns over homosexuality that have occupied its mainline counterparts for years. The United Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) have repeatedly declined over decades to allow ordination of noncelibate homosexuals. Gay activists and their supporters in those churches vow not to abandon the fight.

Meanwhile, the more liberal Episcopal Church and United Church of Christ have made some bold changes. Many in those churches put today's churchgoing gays and lesbians in a different category from the people condemned in biblical texts. However, Episcopal traditionalists look to overseas Anglicans for support in resisting the changes, and UCC conservatives find succor in congregational autonomy and "renewal" movements.

The mainline convention disputes over homosexuality typically feature demonstrations or picketing and conservative threats to withhold funds or exit the church—but also, at times, cordial discussion and prayerful reconciliation.

So what's next for the ELCA?

"Lutherans are traditionally shy, but when push comes to shove they value healthy relationships above all," says the hot-selling Lutheran Handbook, a sometimes whimsical guide published by Augsburg Fortress this year. "Conflict should be viewed as an opportunity to grow, not a contest for domination," advises the handbook, which went into its fifth printing last month.

When the ELCA Task Force on Human Sexuality announced its findings in January, the panel emphasized that it took a "pastoral approach" for the sake of outreach and ongoing dialogue. But the task force was criticized for recommending that the church may "choose to refrain" from punishing congregations for calling as pastors otherwise qualified gay or lesbian candidates.

"It was not well-received," said Stanley Olson, executive director of the ELCA Division for Ministry. "It was perceived as too nebulous."

The approach was recast in April by the 37-member Church Council, which acts as a board of directors between biennial assemblies. The council proposed that instead of withholding disciplinary actions, the church "may permit exceptions to the expectations regarding sexual conduct for gay or lesbian candidates . . . in life-long, committed and faithful same-sex relationships."

The ELCA standard says pastors must be married to someone of the opposite sex or be celibate if single. Under the exception, a premium would be placed on a homosexual minister's "evidence of intent" to live in a faithful partnership.

The ELCA already makes occasional exceptions on ordinations. Normally, a seminary graduate cannot be ordained unless a congregation invites him or her to be a pastor and the minister serves at least three years in pastoral ministry. Exceptions are sometimes made for graduates who have special opportunities in missions, teaching or administration, officials say.

Barbara R. Rossing, associate professor of New Testament at the Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago, said that the "exceptions" route "was a brilliant way to go because I think it claims the middle."

In April, Rossing and faculty colleague Ralph W. Klein coauthored a short statement supporting the task force recommendations and getting 63 signatures from those they called "teaching theologians." The statement, now endorsed by more than 100 signers, said the task force recommendations "represent a much-needed and faithful compromise for this moment in the life of the church."

The Klein-Rossing statement took issue with an earlier statement signed by 17 theologians—including Carl E. Braaten, William G. Rusch, William H. Lazareth and Robert W. Jenson—who rejected the task force recommendations on ecclesiastical, pastoral and theological grounds.

The 17 said the task force "advocates a fundamental shift in policy" that would harm the church as "an effective collaborator" with the Lutheran World Federation and would sow "division and disunity at the local level."

One of the 17, Robert Benne of Roanoke College in Salem, Virginia, writing in the July issue of The Lutheran magazine, criticized the recommendation as rewritten by the Church Council.

By allowing exceptions, the proposal "bows to those who believe traditional teaching should be revised," wrote Benne. "It uses the acceptance of divorced and remarried clergy as a parallel to the acceptance of partnered gay clergy . . . a dubious analogy because divorced clergy don't argue that divorce is right and therefore keep divorcing."

Proponents of accepting gays in ministry commonly note that while the churches have found ways to allow divorce and remarriage, despite Jesus' words to the contrary, the same churches resist change on homosexuality, an issue not addressed by Jesus.

Some of the rationale used in April by the Church Council resembled arguments in a joint proposal issued in March by bishops Paul Rogness of St. Paul, Minnesota, and Steven L. Ullestad of Iowa. While there are many in the ELCA, perhaps a majority, who believe homosexual activity is always a sin, the two bishops wrote, there are Lutherans, lay and ordained, "who believe we are at a time in history where we have come to know that homosexuality is a condition, not a choice, but simply a given that is often discovered as a person grows."

To Jeff Johnson, the openly gay pastor of the University Lutheran Chapel at the University of California at Berkeley, "the trajectory of the church is clearly moving in a progressive direction."

His bishop, David G. Mullen, has chosen not to remove at least 13 openly gay, lesbian or bisexual pastors serving in the Sierra Pacific Synod, said Johnson, who cochairs Good Soil, a Lutheran gay alliance. "The current policy of the church really serves no one," Johnson said.

"The progressive wing is frustrated and unsatisfied because the policies intimidate a class of people unjustly," he said. "The conservative wing is frustrated because the policies are inconsistently followed or ignored."

The seven-day assembly in Florida "will decide whether the ELCA fragments in a serious fashion or not," said Roy A. Harrisville III of St. Paul, executive director of the conservative Solid Rock Lutherans group.

"This is our Gene Robinson moment," said Harrisville, referring to turmoil in Anglican churches created in 2003 by the Episcopal Church's approval of the election of a gay man as Episcopal bishop of New Hampshire.


TOPICS: Mainline Protestant; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: apostasy; ecusa; elca; homosexualagenda; lutheran; protestant; religiousleft
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Ill pray the Holy Spirit convicts these leaders of the ELCA.

I hope for the best and expect the worst.

1 posted on 08/02/2005 10:55:00 AM PDT by wallcrawlr
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To: wallcrawlr

.....Decision Time for Mainline Lutherans.....The 'KJV' or,...Harry Potter?


2 posted on 08/02/2005 11:00:06 AM PDT by maestro
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To: wallcrawlr; TonyRo76; Cletus.D.Yokel
Decision Time for Mainline Lutherans

The ELCA may be "mainline" liberal social-political ecumaniac Protestants, but they're not very Lutheran. They don't deserve that excellent name.

I'm speaking here, of course, of official, headquarters-and-seminaries ELCA, not necessarily of the remaining faithful Lutheran congregations and pastors.

3 posted on 08/02/2005 11:01:14 AM PDT by Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS)
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To: Charles Henrickson

understood and agree.


4 posted on 08/02/2005 11:12:25 AM PDT by wallcrawlr (http://www.bionicear.com)
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To: wallcrawlr; Hermann the Cherusker; FormerLib; MarMema; kosta50

Looks to me as if we're looking at a worldwide attack that crosses all denominational & jurisdictional boundary lines.


5 posted on 08/02/2005 11:16:35 AM PDT by Graves (Remember Esphigmenou - Orthodoxy or Death!)
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To: wallcrawlr; biblewonk
Decision Time for Mainline Lutherans

I wonder what basis they'll use for their decision. If the Bible, the decision really comes down to whether they're willing to ignore certain additional parts of it.

Since they've been ordaining female pastors for so many years, sodomite pastors shouldn't present too formidable a challenge.

6 posted on 08/02/2005 11:17:51 AM PDT by newgeezer (for further reading on this subject, see Romans 1:26-32)
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To: Graves

It certainly is.

Its my hope the ELCA stands on the cornerstone of Christ and not the shifting sands of the world.


7 posted on 08/02/2005 11:18:33 AM PDT by wallcrawlr (http://www.bionicear.com)
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To: wallcrawlr
Its my hope the ELCA stands on the cornerstone of Christ and not the shifting sands of the world.

Fat chance! Aren't they already paying for their ministers' abortions?

8 posted on 08/02/2005 11:29:33 AM PDT by madprof98
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To: newgeezer

It's almost a done deal once a denomination allows females to be pastors. Gays are the very next step.


9 posted on 08/02/2005 11:30:53 AM PDT by biblewonk (They are not gods which are made with hands. PS we need socialized medicine.)
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To: madprof98

can you help me with a source for that?...ive never heard that one.


10 posted on 08/02/2005 11:41:11 AM PDT by wallcrawlr (http://www.bionicear.com)
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To: biblewonk
"It's almost a done deal once a denomination allows females to be pastors. Gays are the very next step."

Only supra rosa. Sub rosa, it goes on all over. What they want is for their pleasures to be universally considered normal, or perfectly acceptable at the very least.
11 posted on 08/02/2005 11:42:37 AM PDT by Graves (Remember Esphigmenou - Orthodoxy or Death!)
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To: Graves; TonyRo76
Looks to me as if we're looking at a worldwide attack that crosses all denominational & jurisdictional boundary lines.

We are indeed. Lutheran Ping Tony.

12 posted on 08/02/2005 11:48:21 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: wallcrawlr
The proposal asks members to "trust pastors and congregations to discern ways to provide faithful pastoral care to same-sex couples."

All that either should have to say in such a situation is "go and sin no more."

It was clearly good enough for Jesus, the only question is whether this church follows Him or someone else.

13 posted on 08/02/2005 11:48:33 AM PDT by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: biblewonk
It's almost a done deal once a denomination allows females to be pastors. Gays are the very next step.

That certainly seems to be the pattern. I'm so very glad to only be an outside observer to the entire mess.

14 posted on 08/02/2005 11:50:00 AM PDT by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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Comment #15 Removed by Moderator

To: FormerLib

"Outside" of what? That denomination or Christianity?


16 posted on 08/02/2005 11:55:53 AM PDT by biblewonk (They are not gods which are made with hands. PS we need socialized medicine.)
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Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: FormerLib
I'm so very glad to only be an outside observer to the entire mess.

I'm interested too to know how you stay away from this garbage. The homo agenda certainly has afflicted most churches. They have had to make a decision on it.

18 posted on 08/02/2005 12:02:55 PM PDT by wallcrawlr (http://www.bionicear.com)
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To: FormerLib
I've had some interesting patristic stuff - unsigned by the way - that has crossed my desk of late, stuff that really pushes the "go and sin no more" envelope into territory that to me borders on permitting promiscuity, what St. Paul referred to in his Epistle to the Church in Rome.
Rom 1:24, 27, and 32 "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: ..And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet...Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

The patristic quotes, while possibly taken from out of context, were well referenced.

It mystified me that the material came to me unsigned, as if my reaction or acquiescence was being sought, but the compiler apparently did not want his name attached to it. I was not overly thrilled with this and so I told the sender it would be greatly improved were it to include at least a reference to the due canonical process for dealing with scandalous behavior.
19 posted on 08/02/2005 12:07:50 PM PDT by Graves (Remember Esphigmenou - Orthodoxy or Death!)
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To: Graves
Interesting. Is someone trying to push for a lassie fair attitude in regards to sexual morality?

I haven't read the early Church Fathers as extensively as I should (working on that), but I have yet to run across any thing that "borders on permitting promiscuity".
20 posted on 08/02/2005 12:12:26 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: TonyRo76; FormerLib; lightman

An Evangelical Orthodox Lutheran is in no way "mainline", thank God!! However, given that the vast majority of Christians are in the orthodox catholic tradition, he or she is very much mainstream!

As I said before, I will spend the Sundays during the CWA with my Orthodox brothers and sisters, celebrating the Transfiguration and the Dormition. But I will pray for the ELCA.


21 posted on 08/02/2005 12:17:47 PM PDT by Honorary Serb (Kosovo is Serbia! Free Srpska! Abolish ICTY!)
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To: wallcrawlr
I'm interested too to know how you stay away from this garbage. The homo agenda certainly has afflicted most churches.

It seems like those churches having the word "Bible" in their names have pretty much avoided the affliction. (This is where I'm tempted to say, "Go figure." ;)

22 posted on 08/02/2005 12:18:53 PM PDT by newgeezer (Just my opinion, of course. Your mileage may vary.)
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To: wallcrawlr

I will repeat a posting I offered yesterday on a similar thread, as We are all deeply concerned about what may happen later this week in Orlando. To that end, one of the fine orthodox clergy Voting Members from my Synod has composed some prayers for use during these eight days of distress.

I strongly urge all who are concerned to "tithe" their rhetoric (FR and otherwise) and offer no less than 10$ of it heavenward in the days ahead:

God of grace and glory whose compassion led to the cross and the grave we pray that you would keep our eyes focused on you. By the power of your Holy Spirit fill us with humility so that we would only seek your will and not our own. Fill us with hope as we remember your triumph over sin and death and as we look forward to your final victory over suffering and evil. Lord, in your mercy....hear our prayer.

Almighty and ever living God, the wisdom of the ages lays at your command. Stir up your power and come to us that we would draw on the insight of your Word for the decisions that we make. Help us to speak the truth in love and to be on our guard against the deceivers of this world. Give us the courage and energy it takes to stand up when we are called on to be servants of your Word. Lord, in your mercy....hear our prayer.

Holy God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in you we live and move and have our being. You know what we need even before we ask, help us to walk in your ways and to lead others to the truth. Bless our leaders with wisdom and give all decision makers clarity of thought. Help us to trust in you for you live and reign one God through all ages. Lord, in your mercy....hear our prayer.

Precious Savior, you hearkened the little children to come unto you. Continue to make our congregations safe havens for children that what we teach may bring strength and direction to their lives. Bless parents and educators and all those who work with children that they may not grow weary in doing what is right but may be lifted up to be examples of righteousness and holiness for the sake of your holy name. Lord, in your mercy....hear our prayer.

Patient God, we thank you for your forgiveness and the new life that you bring. Transform our lives this day. Make us more ready to forgive and to give. Encourage husbands and wives to remain faithful to their wedding vows and to live lives of commitment and service. Lord, in your mercy....hear our prayer.

Eternal God, your wisdom spans the generations and brings stability to a changing world. Keep us steadfast in your unchanging love and bind us together with your holy Word. Bless the family dear God, that as we deal with the constant demands of this world we would not succumb to competing priorities but be diligent in our calling as your children marked by your cross in Holy Baptism. Make our lights shine before others and give glory to you Father, Son and Holy Spirit, now and forever. Amen.

Rev. Sara Gausmann, Co-pastor Saint Paul Lutheran Church,York.


23 posted on 08/02/2005 12:19:34 PM PDT by lightman (The Office of the Keys should be exercised as some ministry needs to be exorcised.)
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To: TonyRo76

Thanks for the ping, Tony. My son's health has kept me from doing much at church lately, so I really appreciate being kept informed about what the ELCA is up to.

As much as Sodomy is condemned in both Old and New Testaments, I really have trouble understanding how anyone can claim to practice the faith taught in the Bible and support such activity at the same time.


24 posted on 08/02/2005 12:20:09 PM PDT by RebelBanker (To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women!)
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To: redgolum

"Interesting. Is someone trying to push for a lassie fair attitude in regards to sexual morality?"

That's how it came across to me, but with a dash of clergy being considered teflon coated, i.e. untouchable by the laity. I repeat, this was patristic material, not scholastic.

"I...have yet to run across any thing that 'borders on permitting promiscuity' ".
I was quite surprised by what I read.


25 posted on 08/02/2005 12:22:59 PM PDT by Graves (Remember Esphigmenou - Orthodoxy or Death!)
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To: RebelBanker

The situation today is no different from when Israel was told to "choose this whom you shall serve"...the sexgod Ba'al or the Lord.


26 posted on 08/02/2005 12:24:35 PM PDT by lightman (The Office of the Keys should be exercised as some ministry needs to be exorcised.)
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To: wallcrawlr; FormerLib

For whatever reason, the Orthodox churches seem to be blissfully immune to the machinations of the gaysbians and feminazis, even though there are miscreants (i.e, the "gay" group "Axios") who are trying to undermine them. Even Roman Catholics have feminazi "theologians", as well as numerous priests who call for open "gay" ordination. But not, apparently, the Orthodox. It's so refreshing to go to my Serbian Orthodox congregation and not to have to deal with this garbage at all!!!!


27 posted on 08/02/2005 12:24:53 PM PDT by Honorary Serb (Kosovo is Serbia! Free Srpska! Abolish ICTY!)
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To: newgeezer

###"Since they've been ordaining female pastors for so many years"###

Sorry to say that our Pro Life organization has had the most resistance from these "pastors"


28 posted on 08/02/2005 12:34:38 PM PDT by franky (Pray for the souls of the faithful departed.)
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To: lightman; biblewonk
To that end, one of the fine orthodox clergy ... Rev. Sara Gausmann, Co-pastor Saint Paul Lutheran Church

A church bearing St. Paul's name has a female co-pastor. Gotta love the irony.

29 posted on 08/02/2005 12:37:25 PM PDT by newgeezer (fundamentalist, regarding the Constitution AND the Holy Bible, i.e. words mean things)
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To: newgeezer

Ironic, especially since she and her co-pastor husband are among the staunchest traditionlists in the region. She and their daughter will be Voting Members in Orlando.


30 posted on 08/02/2005 12:44:47 PM PDT by lightman (The Office of the Keys should be exercised as some ministry needs to be exorcised.)
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To: Honorary Serb
###"Even Roman Catholics have feminazi "theologians", as well as numerous priests who call for open "gay" ordination."###

I think we would be hard pressed to find a practicing Catholic in communion with the Church who would fit that category. The ones I am familiar with are apostate and have been excommunicated from the Church. The media does not reveal these things but they surely play up if someone such as Frances Kissling opens her mouth. They make it read as if she is speaking for the Church while if effect she is out of the Church.

Of course there are good actors in any field so some of them might whisper in each other's ears of their desires.
31 posted on 08/02/2005 12:44:55 PM PDT by franky (Pray for the souls of the faithful departed.)
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To: lightman; biblewonk
Ironic, especially since she and her co-pastor husband are among the staunchest traditionlists in the region. She and their daughter will be Voting Members in Orlando.

Wow. Staunch traditionalists?! She and their daughter, voting members?! The irony is immeasurably thicker than I could have possibly imagined.

32 posted on 08/02/2005 12:50:31 PM PDT by newgeezer (fundamentalist, regarding the Constitution AND the Holy Bible, i.e. words mean things)
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To: lightman
We are all deeply concerned about what may happen later this week in Orlando

I'm going to throw a bunch of questions at you. It is not meant to be personal...I am just an extremely confused former ELCA member that shakes my head in disgust at what this ELCA denomination has become. If I had the chance to ask your pastors these questions I would.

What have you been doing...why are you waiting for them to "decide"? What vested interest do you have in the ELCA? Are you not concerned with Gods judgement on man? Do you actively preach against the wishy-washy leadership? How many sheep have ben lead astray by shepards that themselves dont know which direction they walk? Are you one of those God is love pastors that likes to not condemn? What is your plan when the ELCA does not do what the Bible states so clearly? Are you ready to leave the ELCA? How much of your monthly benevolance checks to the "mother office" have been spent on the homo agenda? Who can you trust thats presently in leadership of the ELCA to do the right thing?

Ok, thats enough...I had to get it out.

33 posted on 08/02/2005 12:51:07 PM PDT by wallcrawlr (http://www.bionicear.com)
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To: wallcrawlr
To Jeff Johnson, the openly gay pastor of the University Lutheran Chapel at the University of California at Berkeley, "the trajectory of the church is clearly moving in a progressive direction."

If it gets more progressive, it will be considerably smaller by members and congregations.!

34 posted on 08/02/2005 12:51:48 PM PDT by Redleg Duke (BOHICA!)
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To: maestro

Let's not drag Harry into this! It is Lutheranism or Fistingism!


35 posted on 08/02/2005 12:53:11 PM PDT by Redleg Duke (BOHICA!)
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To: newgeezer; lightman; biblewonk
Chick-pastors are entirely acceptable by me...especially when men aint man enough to step up and lead.

I would absolutely prefer to have a man lead...as the Bible states...but I will settle for whats practical and by what the pastor says and does rather than if she's wearing a skirt.

36 posted on 08/02/2005 12:54:16 PM PDT by wallcrawlr (http://www.bionicear.com)
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To: newgeezer

You would urinate on the very heads of those who would push you up and rescue you from the flood!


37 posted on 08/02/2005 12:58:00 PM PDT by Redleg Duke (BOHICA!)
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To: wallcrawlr; lightman; newgeezer
Chick-pastors are entirely acceptable by me...especially when men aint man enough to step up and lead. I would absolutely prefer to have a man lead...as the Bible states...but I will settle for whats practical and by what the pastor says and does rather than if she's wearing a skirt.

And if Saul wants to make a burnt offering to God all by himself. Well that's ok too. Who is to say Saul's worship and offering aren't OK with God? What, is Saul an lesser person or something that he can't make a burnt offering to God? /sarcasm off/

38 posted on 08/02/2005 12:59:56 PM PDT by biblewonk (They are not gods which are made with hands. PS we need socialized medicine.)
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To: Redleg Duke

Uh, would you care to elaborate on that a bit? For instance, who do you see as rescuing me, and from what flood?


39 posted on 08/02/2005 1:00:13 PM PDT by newgeezer (fundamentalist, regarding the Constitution AND the Holy Bible, i.e. words mean things)
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To: newgeezer

It is lost on you. Your antipithy for Lady Pastors is what I was referring to.


40 posted on 08/02/2005 1:05:14 PM PDT by Redleg Duke (BOHICA!)
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To: biblewonk
sarcasm accepted.

But I reconcile it like this...its better to still have people led to the Lord under a woman's tutelage rather than send them to hell.
41 posted on 08/02/2005 1:06:05 PM PDT by wallcrawlr (http://www.bionicear.com)
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Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

To: Redleg Duke
It is lost on you.

Well, stupid me.

Your antipithy for Lady Pastors is what I was referring to.

Surely you know what Paul wrote (on behalf of God, the Holy Spirit) about women's roles in the church. Thus, the irony. See?

43 posted on 08/02/2005 1:07:49 PM PDT by newgeezer (fundamentalist, regarding the Constitution AND the Holy Bible, i.e. words mean things)
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To: wallcrawlr; biblewonk
its better to still have people led to the Lord under a woman's tutelage rather than send them to hell.

Likewise, one could say it's better to still have people led to the Lord under a sodomite's tutelage rather than send them to hell.

Right?

44 posted on 08/02/2005 1:11:11 PM PDT by newgeezer (fundamentalist, regarding the Constitution AND the Holy Bible, i.e. words mean things)
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To: newgeezer; wallcrawlr

Actually, it's better to become a sodomite than send someone to hell, right!? After all we are the ones with the power to send people to hell...right. //more sarcasm//


45 posted on 08/02/2005 1:13:59 PM PDT by biblewonk (They are not gods which are made with hands. PS we need socialized medicine.)
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To: newgeezer

No.

You may see homo's and women as equals but I dont.


We disagree.


46 posted on 08/02/2005 1:14:09 PM PDT by wallcrawlr (http://www.bionicear.com)
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To: biblewonk

excuse my language:


it should read as...knowing they are going to hell and we do nothing about it.

are you that cold? or is the sarcasm just extra heavy today?


47 posted on 08/02/2005 1:15:42 PM PDT by wallcrawlr (http://www.bionicear.com)
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Comment #48 Removed by Moderator

To: wallcrawlr; newgeezer
Chick-pastors are entirely acceptable by me...especially when men aint man enough to step up and lead.

If the men in your church don't know enough to be offended by having a female pastor, run away from that church. It's completely luke warm if not altogether dead.

49 posted on 08/02/2005 1:17:21 PM PDT by biblewonk (They are not gods which are made with hands. PS we need socialized medicine.)
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To: wallcrawlr
In 1995, the ELCA Board of Pensions offered abortion benefit choices to ELCA Church Council, noting the ELCA's public position against abortion in their Social Statement on Abortion. Council chose abortion-on-demand up to 20 weeks for ELCA insureds. In 1997, the Churchwide Assembly knocked down an attempt to limit this abortion benefit. Many are unaware of this one, too.

http://www.elca.org/co/news/96/archive/briefs3.html
http://www.elca.org/socialstatements/abortion/
http://www.wfn.org/1997/08/msg00159.html
50 posted on 08/02/2005 1:18:51 PM PDT by polymuser
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