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A rising star in the new Culture of Christianity
I AM Spirit ^ | Current issue | C. Russell Brumfield

Posted on 08/10/2005 7:54:28 AM PDT by TBP

On any given Sunday, 100 million households from Australia, Europe, and across the USA will tune in to view Joel Osteen broadcasting from the 30,000-member Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas. Rated as the #1 inspirational television program by Nielson Media Research, Joel Osteen is preaching a message that certainly seems to be touching home with people all over America. In his much respected best selling book, Your Best Life Now-7 Steps to Living at Your Full Potential, Osteen outlines a seven-step process for effecting profound change in your life. He speaks in terms of the positive in everyday life. Expect God's favor, live your full potential, realize your God-given right to prosperity, including being happy, building a good marriage, and having good relationships. Accentuating the positive and eliminating the negative are really the basis of Osteen's message. His true gift is in speaking directly to the viewer, almost to the point that the viewer feels that Osteen knows him personally. He talks about everyday real-life issues, using self disclosure from his own experiences and subsequent lessons learned in order to relay a powerful message.

Osteen's story has been often told in recent years. His father was the much-loved and revered Reverend John Osteen, founder and longtime pastor of the Lakewood Church. Father John authored 45 books and was know as the "pastor's pastor," leading seminars and conferences around the country along with running a successful television ministry. Joel Osteen's first experiences were in business and media, becoming a successful producer of his father's television ministry. Upon his father's untimely death in 1999, Joel humbly stepped up to fill his father's shoes, and the rest is recent history.

The amazing phenomenon that we are witnessing with the rise of Osteen is that he has seamlessly incorporated and integrated the long-practiced prosperity principles of the century-old New Thought movement (principles derived from the teachings of Jesus and even earlier teachings) into a mainstream Christian message. A mere decade ago, most of the TV preachers and hometown pastors delivered a message that those in the flock are sinners, undeserving, dust-of-the-earth folks, who could not expect much from God other than a beautiful afterlife. The common teaching did not recognize that we are empowered with making a good life for ourselves. In fact, many would have called Osteen's teachings blasphemy. And some very vocal mainstream Christianity proponents are saying just that. The internet is littered with "outing Joel Osteen" messages, stating that he is card carrying metaphysical teacher not unlike Marianne Williamson, Deepak Chopra, Wayne Dyer and Neale Donald Walsch. They say that he speaks the same lingo as the well known self empowerment gurus of today, adding a Christian tint and point of view.

When Osteen is asked who inspires him, he is vague in his responses. When asked which books he reads, he replies that he reads many books and has no particular favorites. When interviewed about gay marriage and other liberal ideas, he has replied that he doesn't get into that. Regardless of where the basis of his message comes from, it is powerful and fulfilling to his large audience. It is quite apparent to any knowledgeable viewer who may have studied New Thought and other metaphysical writings, that Osteen is preaching what philosopher William James called "the religion og healthy-mindedness." He is delving far beyond the power of positive thinking of the Sixties and Seventies. He discusses our thoughts, feelings, emotions, and belief systems. Some metaphysical teachers are feeling cheated, for Joel Osteen is bringing mainstream Christianity down a parallel path of teachings. But what does it really matter? If mainstream Christianity can transform its ages-old "fire and brimstone" fear-based message into one of self empowerment and practical positive living , then it is all the better for humanity. The world's Christians can now feel empowered and happy without the prerequisite guilt that was so prominent in the past.

Joel Osteen is touching a chord in the human spirit in teaching empowerment, betterment, positive thinking, optimism, and gratitude toward God. The overwhelming response is evidenced by blockbuster book sales and skyrocketing television ratings. And this very same phenomenal response is commensurate with the need of the seekers that he is reaching out to.

On a more reflective note, the melding of practical spirituality and Christianity may not be good for the long-term "brand" equity of Christianity. If you can watch presentations by Deepak Chopra, Wayne Dyer, Marianne Williamson and Joel Osteen side by side and see little difference in the teachings other than terminology, what will be the outcome of the loyalty to one particular religion? All of these teachers are offering a similar message in different packaging. The real outcome of Osteen's rise is yet to be seen. The present conclusion is that he is greatly helping to uplift humanity by teaching self-empowerment, negating victim-hood, and relieving people of the propensity for guilt in striving for prosperity and abundance.

Joel Osteen is definitely a mover and a shaker of the highest nature. His charm and charisma packaged with a succinctly delivered message will only propel him to even greater heights. Expect his to be a household name around the world in the coming years. Whereas Billy Graham delivered a powerful sermon and saved millions of "sinners," Joel Osteen is sure to uplift and elevate the lives of many millions more.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Current Events; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Other Christian; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: beliefs; bestlife; bible; champion; chopra; christian; dyer; emotions; empowerment; feelings; lakewood; ministry; newthought; osteen; peale; positive; positivethinking; prosperity; television; thoughts; walsch; williamson
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Osteen heads the largest church in America. They recently took over the Compaq Center, former home of the Houston Rockets. Their slogan is "Discover the Champion Within."
1 posted on 08/10/2005 7:54:30 AM PDT by TBP
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To: TBP
On a more reflective note, the melding of practical spirituality and Christianity may not be good for the long-term "brand" equity of Christianity. If you can watch presentations by Deepak Chopra, Wayne Dyer, Marianne Williamson and Joel Osteen side by side and see little difference in the teachings other than terminology, what will be the outcome of the loyalty to one particular religion? All of these teachers are offering a similar message in different packaging. The real outcome of Osteen's rise is yet to be seen. The present conclusion is that he is greatly helping to uplift humanity by teaching self-empowerment, negating victim-hood, and relieving people of the propensity for guilt in striving for prosperity and abundance. Joel Osteen is definitely a mover and a shaker of the highest nature. His charm and charisma packaged with a succinctly delivered message will only propel him to even greater heights. Expect his to be a household name around the world in the coming years. Whereas Billy Graham delivered a powerful sermon and saved millions of "sinners," Joel Osteen is sure to uplift and elevate the lives of many millions more.

Genuine Christianity is about self-denial, not self-empowerment.

2 posted on 08/10/2005 8:04:28 AM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past

Religion is supposed to be about uplifting us. How does self-denial promote that?


3 posted on 08/10/2005 8:07:16 AM PDT by TBP
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past
Genuine Christianity is about self-denial, not self-empowerment.

And to that I would add, it is about being filled with the Holy Spirit. A self-empowered human is a speck of dust compared to the most ordinary person who is filled with the H.S.

Talk about real power!

4 posted on 08/10/2005 8:09:15 AM PDT by Dark Skies
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To: TBP

I will never understand the charismatic movement. It's really quite a cultural phenomenon.


5 posted on 08/10/2005 8:10:32 AM PDT by Sam's Army
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To: TBP

In Christianity, you win by losing and you live by dying. Click on my name and read a quote by John MacArthur. He says it better than I ever could.


6 posted on 08/10/2005 8:13:42 AM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past
From the MacArthur book, Hard To Believe:

A saint of many centuries ago got it right with this prayer:

Lord, high and holy, meek and lowly, let me learn by paradox that the way down is the way up, that to be low is to be high, that the broken heart is the healed heart, that the contrite spirit is the rejoicing spirit, that the repenting soul is the victorious soul, that to have nothing is to posses everyting, that to bear the cross is to wear the crown, that to give is to receive. Let me find thy light in my darkness, thy joy in my sorrow, thy grace in my sin, thy riches in my poverty, thy glory in my valley, thy life in my death.

7 posted on 08/10/2005 8:21:17 AM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past (The repenting soul is the victorious soul)
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To: Sam's Army

The charismatic movement is an attempt to get back to the fulness of the power of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. Some of it is a little off the track, but the intention is good. As far as Joel Osteen, I think he's blessed because he's one of very few that preaches that God is for you and not against you. If you want proof of that, just check out what people on this website post far more often than not. I thank God that I came to know Him as accepting me. Had I learned from most of those on this website, I'd think God was an unreasonable, unpleasable, hating ogre. But He's not that. He's perfect love.


8 posted on 08/10/2005 8:22:48 AM PDT by gamarob1
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To: TBP
I'm not sure that I would place Joel Osteen in the same category as Neale Donald Walsch, but I do think that his message and work has a lot more in common with humanist self-improvement gurus than Biblical Christianity. The further you go from the reality of our sin, the truth of how we Christians will be treated by the world, and the effects and consequences of sin in this world, the further we get from the grace that is at the very heart of the Gospel.

Christianity is definitely not about self-empowerment. It's about total reliance upon God and seeking to serve and advance His Kingdom in this world until Christ returns to fully consumate it. Osteen's message seems very anthropocentric.

9 posted on 08/10/2005 8:23:19 AM PDT by solafiducia (Rom8:28)
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To: TBP

I was recently taken to task by some posters here who were evidently embarrassed by Osteen representing Arminians. Your article is interesting and I think that Osteen represents a very large segment of current non-Denomination Arminian thought.

Colin.


10 posted on 08/10/2005 8:23:46 AM PDT by Colin MacTavish
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To: TBP
Religion is supposed to be about uplifting us. How does self-denial promote that?

Matthew 16: 24 & 25: If anyone desires to follow after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

It's all a part of the great mystery. We just have to believe and follow Him. I have visited Lakewood Church and have found all the TV related things going on to be very distracting to worship. The message bothers me inasmuch as the Lord is not some cosmic grandpa who is there to grant my every wish. I am here to worship him and to dedicate my life to Him and that involves sacrifice on my part.

11 posted on 08/10/2005 8:24:40 AM PDT by texgal (end no-fault divorce laws return DUE PROCESS & EQUAL PROTECTION to ALL citizens))
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past
In Christianity, you win by losing and you live by dying.

Which is, at bottom, nonsense.

"I come that you may have life and have it more abundantly."

12 posted on 08/10/2005 8:25:00 AM PDT by TBP
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To: TBP
Oh, but that's not religious enough for most of the people here. They want to make sure that you listen to them, for, after all, only they REALLY know what it means to "deny yourself".

That's what they think. Self-deluded people....

13 posted on 08/10/2005 8:26:19 AM PDT by gamarob1
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To: Dark Skies

That is the truth. The presence of Almighty God in someone is an awesome thing to behold.


14 posted on 08/10/2005 8:28:35 AM PDT by DarthVader (Islam is not something to be understood, it is something that must be utterly destroyed)
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To: TBP; The Ghost of FReepers Past
"I come that you may have life and have it more abundantly."

You are both right!

One must die to himself and be reborn of the Holy Spirit, a new creature in God. Then and only then will life be infinitely abundant...and, I might add, eternal.

15 posted on 08/10/2005 8:30:05 AM PDT by Dark Skies
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To: TBP


Not really. Having life abundantly does not imply abundant
material gains. Life especially eternal life involves giving up more than enjoying "life".


16 posted on 08/10/2005 8:30:11 AM PDT by birg
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To: texgal
The message bothers me inasmuch as the Lord is not some cosmic grandpa who is there to grant my every wish. I am here to worship him and to dedicate my life to Him and that involves sacrifice on my part.

Uh huh. Okay. And, um, just so I know, what is it exactly that the Lord is doing through your life, that is coming from your absolutely fantastic "self sacrifice"? I'd really like to know. Because, for knowing that God my Father is FOR ME and not AGAINST ME, I have had countless things done through my life, FREELY, by His grace, not because I'm so adept at "self sacrifice".

So really, fill me in, let me know about the far-reaching ABUNDANT FRUIT that Christ GUARANTEED to come through our lives, that you find in your life, solely because of your fantastic self-sacrifice....

17 posted on 08/10/2005 8:30:56 AM PDT by gamarob1
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To: gamarob1
Its just not "deep" enough for me. It just comes across as simplistic and full of "forward this email to 10 friends right now" type of platitudes.

I have no doubts the intentions are good, I'm just not set on the same frequency as they are I guess.

18 posted on 08/10/2005 8:31:34 AM PDT by Sam's Army
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To: Dark Skies

That's funny, because I got filled with the Holy Spirit before I did ANYTHING. ANYTHING. I think that's because, the Bible calls the Holy Spirit a GIFT. That means, you can't earn it with your works or "denying of self". He is granted freely to all believers.


19 posted on 08/10/2005 8:32:08 AM PDT by gamarob1 (.)
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To: birg
Having life abundantly does not imply abundant material gains.

Not entirely, but that is part of it. "It is the Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom."

20 posted on 08/10/2005 8:32:22 AM PDT by TBP
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To: texgal

Lord is not some cosmic grandpa who is there to grant my every wish--

Could not have said it better.


21 posted on 08/10/2005 8:32:35 AM PDT by birg
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To: TBP

"When interviewed about gay marriage and other liberal ideas, he replied....he doesn't get into that".......that one phrase speaks much louder than anything else in the article. What he's saying is that "I'm another blow dried, odorless pastor who refuses to take on the flagship issues of the anti-American movement such as homosexuality, abortion, humanism in the schools, etc. because I don't want to "offend anyone", especially the IRS who might yank my 501C-3 tax status from me..........in other words, just pay attention to the current message vs. what's NOT being said and by the way, is your tithing up to date?


22 posted on 08/10/2005 8:32:43 AM PDT by american spirit
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To: TBP
Religion is supposed to be about uplifting us. How does self-denial promote that?

That's a very modern concept of religion. Self denial is the original concept.

Matthew 16:24  Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Matthew 18:4  Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 23:12  And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

James 4:6  But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

James 4:10  Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

23 posted on 08/10/2005 8:33:07 AM PDT by asformeandformyhouse (I was going to respond to your post, but I thought I better wait til your meds kicked in.)
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To: TBP
Gig me, gag me.

If you had any doubts about Joel Osteen....

Dan

24 posted on 08/10/2005 8:34:34 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: TBP


If you happen to receive material prosperity, then fine but do not aim solely for that. Besides, the Kingdom you refer to may not have anything to do with life in this present form.


25 posted on 08/10/2005 8:35:28 AM PDT by birg
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To: TBP
Not entirely, but that is part of it. "It is the Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom."

Read a little further.

Luke 12:32  Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
33  Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34  For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Do you know what Kingdom Jesus was referring to?

26 posted on 08/10/2005 8:38:19 AM PDT by asformeandformyhouse (I was going to respond to your post, but I thought I better wait til your meds kicked in.)
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To: asformeandformyhouse

So, do you live out on the street? Because, didn't Jesus say to give it all away to the poor, and follow Him? Do you own anything? You'd better give it away, or you're not going to heaven, right?


27 posted on 08/10/2005 8:40:59 AM PDT by gamarob1 (.)
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To: gamarob1
The Apostle Paul can explain better than I can. From Romans, Chapter 6...

"1": What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

"2": God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

"3": Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

"4": Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

"5": For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

"6": Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

"7": For he that is dead is freed from sin.

"8": Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

"9": Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

"10": For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

"11": Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

"12": Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

"13": Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

28 posted on 08/10/2005 8:45:57 AM PDT by Dark Skies
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To: TBP
More MacArthur:

"Thy life in my death"? That's the true gospel. Jesus said it unmistakably and inescapably, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it" (Matt. 16:24-25). It's not about exalting me, it's about slaying me. It's the death of self. You win by losing, you live by dying. And that is the heart message of the gospel. That is the essence of discipleship.

29 posted on 08/10/2005 8:49:22 AM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past (The repenting soul is the victorious soul)
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To: Dark Skies

Yes. The problem I think arises in the definition of "abundantly."


30 posted on 08/10/2005 8:50:58 AM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past (The repenting soul is the victorious soul)
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past

I think you are correct. I define "abundantly" as an abundance of Love and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, not material gifts or sensual gifts or gifts of the pleasures of this world.


31 posted on 08/10/2005 8:54:11 AM PDT by Dark Skies
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To: TBP
Not entirely, but that is part of it. "It is the Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom.

Jesus also said that His Kingdom is not of this world.

32 posted on 08/10/2005 8:54:48 AM PDT by texgal (end no-fault divorce laws return DUE PROCESS & EQUAL PROTECTION to ALL citizens))
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To: Dark Skies

I have no problem with your definition. It is God-centered, not man-centered.


33 posted on 08/10/2005 8:56:29 AM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past (The repenting soul is the victorious soul)
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To: asformeandformyhouse
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

I love that one. Sort of the bottom line of this whole thread.

34 posted on 08/10/2005 8:57:26 AM PDT by Dark Skies
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To: gamarob1

-You'd better give it away, or you're not going to heaven, right?--

It may seem extreme but it is easier for you to enter the eye of a "needle" (not literally) than one who is very comfortable...


35 posted on 08/10/2005 8:58:09 AM PDT by birg
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past

Bump toyour comments?


36 posted on 08/10/2005 8:59:11 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: gamarob1
So really, fill me in, let me know about the far-reaching ABUNDANT FRUIT that Christ GUARANTEED to come through our lives, that you find in your life, solely because of your fantastic self-sacrifice....

Based upon your respnse to me and others posting here, you seem to be here to start an argument, not discuss.

37 posted on 08/10/2005 9:01:55 AM PDT by texgal (end no-fault divorce laws return DUE PROCESS & EQUAL PROTECTION to ALL citizens))
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To: TBP; The Ghost of FReepers Past
Religion is about serving God and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. (not uplifting us!)

Today's Gospel:

Gospel
Jn 12:24-26

Jesus said to his disciples:
"Amen, amen, I say to you,
unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies,
it remains just a grain of wheat;
but if it dies, it produces much fruit.
Whoever loves his life loses it,
and whoever hates his life in this world
will preserve it for eternal life.
Whoever serves me must follow me,
and where I am, there also will my servant be.
The Father will honor whoever serves me."




38 posted on 08/10/2005 9:02:00 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past
It is God-centered, not man-centered.

Yup, that's where the joy is. You can see it on this thread. The anger is coming from the proponents of "man-centered" theology.

39 posted on 08/10/2005 9:02:30 AM PDT by Dark Skies
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To: texgal

**Matthew 16: 24 & 25: If anyone desires to follow after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.**

Amen. See the Gospel from Saint John also.


40 posted on 08/10/2005 9:03:24 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: gamarob1
So, do you live out on the street? Because, didn't Jesus say to give it all away to the poor, and follow Him? Do you own anything? You'd better give it away, or you're not going to heaven, right?

Must you always attempt to goad others into an argument? Simple questions are much more conducive to a discussion than accusations and strawman arguments. You know that Jesus was talking about 'needs' rather than 'wants' in Matt 6.

Matthew 6:32  (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33  But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34  Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Paul might have thought he 'needed' the thorn in his flesh removed. But God had other plans and Paul accepted this.

2 Corinthians 12:8  For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9  And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

God's grace is sufficient.

41 posted on 08/10/2005 9:05:01 AM PDT by asformeandformyhouse (I was going to respond to your post, but I thought I better wait til your meds kicked in.)
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To: gamarob1

The ABUNDANT FRUIT that Christ GUARANTEED is much along the lines of the fruit that came through his life.
Christ would not expect you to obtain/bear fruit that was different from that of his early followers and himself.
Their fruits were not material at all..


42 posted on 08/10/2005 9:13:48 AM PDT by birg
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To: Dark Skies
You're right. It's a paradox, but that is the only path to true Christian joy. It leaves no one able to boast in anything but Christ alone.

Jer. 9:24, "but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things," declares the LORD."

Psalm 20:7 Some boast in chariots and some in horses, But we will boast in the name of the LORD, our God.

1 Corinthians 1:31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

2 Corinthians 10:17 But HE WHO BOASTS IS TO BOAST IN THE LORD.

Galatians 6:14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

43 posted on 08/10/2005 9:16:04 AM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past (The repenting soul is the victorious soul)
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To: TBP
Religion is supposed to be about uplifting us.

Where's you ever hear that?

Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?

44 posted on 08/10/2005 10:34:46 AM PDT by Lee N. Field
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past

"Genuine Christianity is about self-denial, not self-empowerment."

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. - Phillipians 4:13

If that ain't self empowerment, I don't know what is. The Word says I can do all things. G-d himself has empowered me.


45 posted on 08/10/2005 10:54:06 AM PDT by brwnsuga (Proud, Black, Conservative!)
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To: brwnsuga
Phil 4:11-12 says, "I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be conent whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want."

Then you come to, "I can do everything through Him who gives me strength."

I see nothing in there about God-given right to prosperity. Actually, your verse is a wonderful example of true Christianity. Christ becomes everything. We become nothing.

46 posted on 08/10/2005 11:25:08 AM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past (The repenting soul is the victorious soul)
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To: TBP
Religion is supposed to be about uplifting us. How does self-denial promote that?

You're correct in that religion is "supposed to be about uplifting us," because it has been that way since Cain lifted up himself to kill his righteous brother, Abel.

Later, men sought to lift themselves up in arrogance to the Lord through the building of the Tower of Babel, the epitome of religion.

We are "uplifted" when God exalts us after we realize that we cannot do anything to help ourselves or lift ourselves without Christ. Any other type of "uplifting" amounts to humanism.

Self-denial is the way of anyone who wishes to follow Christ.

47 posted on 08/10/2005 12:41:19 PM PDT by A2J (Oh, I wish I was in Dixie...)
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To: gamarob1
The charismatic movement is an attempt to get back to the fulness of the power of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer.

So, are you saying that non-charismatics do not have the "fullness of the power of the Holy Spirit?" Are non-charismatics inferior to those who view themselves as charismatics?

48 posted on 08/10/2005 12:47:39 PM PDT by A2J (Oh, I wish I was in Dixie...)
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past
Youre hitting on all cylinders today Ghost....
49 posted on 08/10/2005 1:17:53 PM PDT by wallcrawlr (http://www.bionicear.com)
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To: TBP
Which is, at bottom, nonsense.

Wow.

What about Jesus' words?

Matthew 16:25 "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Luke 17:33 " Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

John 12:25 " He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.

The "abundant life" is living with the assurance of knowing that eternal life awaits you in heaven.

Read your bible and you'll see that the life of a disciple mirrors the life of his/her master, which means if Jesus came to die in order for others to live, then we should do the same.

50 posted on 08/10/2005 1:31:41 PM PDT by A2J (Oh, I wish I was in Dixie...)
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