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Holy Days of Obligation -Attendance at Mass of the Feast of the BVM no longer required
Diocese of RVC ^ | 1997 | Diocese of RVC

Posted on 08/14/2005 9:31:12 AM PDT by BulldogCatholic

The Chancellor's Office --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation

(taken from the Pastoral Manual, 1997 edition, Diocese of Rockville Centre)

Sunday is the day on which the paschal mystery is celebrated in light of the apostolic tradition and is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church. Also to be observed are the day of the Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Epiphany, the Ascension and the Most Holy Body and Blood of Christ, Holy Mary Mother of God and her Immaculate Conception and Assumption, Saint Joseph, the Apostles Saints Peter and Paul, and finally, All Saints (canon 1246, §1).

United States: Holydays of Obligation

1. Christmas (December 25) 2. Ascension (Thursday of the Sixth Week of Easter) 3. Mary Mother of God (January 1) 4. Immaculate Conception (December 8) 5. Assumption (August 15) 6. All Saints (November 1)

Special Norm for the United States

1. When a holyday of obligation falls on a Monday or a Saturday, the obligation to participate in the Eucharist is abrogated. The three holydays affected are:

a) January 1, Mary Mother of God b) August 15, Assumption c) November 1, All Saints

2. Note that these days remain “holydays,” solemnities. Even though there is no obligation to participate in the Eucharist, ritual Masses (e.g., Funeral Masses) may not be celebrated. The texts and readings are from the liturgy of the solemnity.

3. Holydays not affected:

a) Ascension Thursday b) Immaculate Conception (national feastday in the USA) c) Christmas


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I was astonished to find out that the Diocese of RVC as well as in other Dioceses of NewYork have done away with all holy days that falls on a Monday or a Saturday. Is that not something that parishoners should demand back? Not to go to church on the Assumption of the BVM as well as All Saints day and the Circumcision?

Is this what Vatican II has brought to the church?

1 posted on 08/14/2005 9:31:13 AM PDT by BulldogCatholic
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To: BulldogCatholic

Vatican II took place in 1997?


2 posted on 08/14/2005 9:55:00 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Liberals: Too stupid to realize Dick Cheney is the real Dark Lord.)
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To: BulldogCatholic; Salvation; Siobhan; Tax-chick; RKBA Democrat
I was astonished to find out that the Diocese of RVC as well as in other Dioceses of NewYork have done away with all holy days that fall on a Monday or a Saturday.

This is a question that I posed on a different thread. Since then, I have done some research and found the following:

"By the French revolution the ecclesiastical calendar had been radically abolished, and at the reorganization of the French Church, in 1806, only four feasts were retained: Christmas, the Ascension, the Assumption, and All Saints; the other feasts were transferred to Sunday. This reduction was valid also in Belgium and in Germany on the left bank of the Rhine. For the Catholics in England Pius VI (19 March, 1777) established the following lists of feasts: Easter and Pentecost two days each, Christmas, New Year's Day, Epiphany, Ascension, Corpus Christi, Annunciation, Assumption, Sts. Peter and Paul, St. George, and All Saints. After the restoration of the hierarchy (1850), the Annunciation, St. George, and the Monday after Easter and Pentecost were abolished. Scotland keeps also the feast of St. Andrew, Ireland the feasts of St. Patrick and the Annunciation. In the United States, the number of feasts was not everywhere the same; the Council of Baltimore wanted only four feasts, but the decree was not approved by Rome; the third Plenary Council of Baltimore (1884), by a general law, retained six feasts: Christmas, New Year's Day, Ascension, Assumption, the Immaculate Conception, and All Saints. Sts. Peter and Paul and Corpus Christi were transferred to the next following Sunday. In the city of Rome the following feasts are of double precept (i.e. hearing Mass, and rest from work): Christmas, New Year's Day, Epiphany, Purification, St. Joseph, Annunciation, Ascension, St. Philip Neri (26 May), Corpus Christi, Nativity of the B.V.M., All Saints, Conception of the B.V.M., St. John the Evangelist. The civil law in Italy acknowledges: Epiphany, Ascension, Sts. Peter and Paul, Assumption, Nativity, Conception, Christmas, and the patronal feasts."

Ecclesiastical Feasts

At one time (approx. 1150AD), there were 41 feast days on the calendar! Much more at the above link.

Is this what Vatican II has brought to the church?

No need to blame VCII for everything with which you disagree. The Maronite Church retains the Feast of the Assumption on its proper day, which we will celebrate tomorrow. I'm guessing this is true of other Eastern Churches. Does anyone know?

3 posted on 08/14/2005 10:22:53 AM PDT by NYer ("Each person is meant to exist. Each person is God's own idea." - Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: BulldogCatholic
Not to go to church on the Assumption of the BVM

You know, you can still go to Church, even if you aren't obligated to do so...

4 posted on 08/14/2005 11:14:07 AM PDT by gbcdoj (Let us ask the Lord with tears, that according to his will so he would shew his mercy to us Jud 8:17)
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To: BulldogCatholic
Our priest told us it was not a Holy Day of Obligation, but he did STRONGLY recommend we attend.

Trust me our pews will be packed.

5 posted on 08/14/2005 11:19:11 AM PDT by mware (Trollhunter of Note)
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To: NYer

Dear NYer,

"The Maronite Church retains the Feast of the Assumption on its proper day, which we will celebrate tomorrow."

Tomorrow, August 15, is still a holyday, the Solemnity of the Assumption of Mary, in the Roman Church. It's just that in the United States, it isn't obligatory.


sitetest


6 posted on 08/14/2005 11:31:03 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: gbcdoj
You know, you can still go to Church, even if you aren't obligated to do so...

Heaven forbid! However, I was kinda disappointed when I went to mass on Ascension Day and that feast wasn't being celebrated.

7 posted on 08/14/2005 12:14:35 PM PDT by sojourner
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To: BulldogCatholic

I really think this is a disgrace. Florida also drops holy days that occur on Mondays or Saturdays, and has run Ascension Thursday into the preceding Sunday.

This is a real abuse and I hope BXVI puts a stop to it. It's a local option, and isn't done in most countries.

If the Church wants to be respected, it should keep its holidays and insist that it be allowed to celebrate them. Muslims are always getting special prayer rooms and special treatment in public places, and Catholics used to get things such as (don't laugh - it's important) suspension of alternate-side-of-the-street parking in the entire city on holy days of obligation. If we are going to adapt ourselves to the public calendar, we shouldn't be surprised to find ourselves completely disappearing as a public presence.


8 posted on 08/14/2005 12:28:01 PM PDT by livius
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To: NYer

I'd like to see the Holy Days of Obligation observed on their actual dates. I'd also like to see civil holidays observed on their appropriate dates, and Standard Time year round :-).


9 posted on 08/14/2005 12:49:24 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Liberals: Too stupid to realize Dick Cheney is the real Dark Lord.)
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To: Tax-chick

Ohhh Lets not try and be sarcastic and be charitable

All God fearing Catholics know when Vatican II took place (sort of like not knowing when Pearl Harbor or 9/11 happened)

God bless you to


10 posted on 08/14/2005 1:28:49 PM PDT by BulldogCatholic
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To: livius; BulldogCatholic; Tax-chick
Catholics used to get things such as (don't laugh - it's important) suspension of alternate-side-of-the-street parking in the entire city on holy days of obligation.

I'm old enough to remember when it was necessary for the local police to assign a cop to direct traffic after each Mass on Sundays. And, yes, I do recall the suspension of alternate side of the street parking on Holy Days.

The tendency is to point the finger at VCII, holding it responsible for ALL the ills when, it is has already been established, that the "I'm Okay, You're Okay" generation surfaced at precisely the same time that VCII ended. The feminists (I was never a member of their group) rose up demanding equal treatment. This was followed by the homosexuals who wanted the same.

A dear friend, native-born Italian, witnessing this upsurge in movements at the time, cautioned that this had occured before. He then pointed to the collapse of ancient civilizations such as Greece and Rome, citing the same circumstances as precursors to what we would witness in our lifetime. I think I laughed when he made this statement. I'm not laughing now.

It is so easy to fault VCII for these disappointments but if any of you have read through ALL the documents from VCII, there is NO indication in any of them that these changes should take place. On the contrary, Latin is touted as the preferred liturgical language and Gregorian Chant for sacred music. It's an easy trap in which to fall, and Satan cleverly guides us there. I have every confidence that B-16 will lead the charge to restore reverence to the NO liturgy and enforce the elimination of abuses. He certainly read enough letters from catholics when he served as Defender of the Faith, to recognize just how out of control these abuses became.

In the meantime, the onus is upon us to ask our Lord for His guidance. He tells us as much .... "ask and you shall receive". I asked and He led me to my current parish. And when I arrived, He let me know in no uncertain terms, that this is where He wanted me to be.

11 posted on 08/14/2005 1:59:31 PM PDT by NYer ("Each person is meant to exist. Each person is God's own idea." - Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer

NY'er

As someone who respects your opinions, what then if it is not the documents do we blame these atrocities on? Do we have inept corrupt Cardinals, Bishops, and even Popes to the point that no one has the guts to put their foot down and say "stop"! "Basta" Enough!????


12 posted on 08/14/2005 3:16:44 PM PDT by BulldogCatholic
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To: sojourner
Heaven forbid! However, I was kinda disappointed when I went to mass on Ascension Day and that feast wasn't being celebrated.

This traditional Lutheran still can't figure out how celebrating Ascension on the Seventh Sunday of Easter is still forty days. Forty three equals forty? This new math amazes me.

13 posted on 08/14/2005 3:50:21 PM PDT by lightman (The Office of the Keys should be exercised as some ministry needs to be exorcised.)
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To: BulldogCatholic

I apologize. People don't always get my sense of humor, such as it is.


14 posted on 08/14/2005 4:01:39 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Liberals: Too stupid to realize Dick Cheney is the real Dark Lord.)
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To: BulldogCatholic; AnAmericanMother; RKBA Democrat; Frank Sheed; Tax-chick; livius
Do we have inept corrupt Cardinals, Bishops, and even Popes to the point that no one has the guts to put their foot down and say "stop"! "Basta" Enough!????

As someone pointed out on another thread, Christ raises up saints when we most need them. Look to Church history for the patterns. At the time of St. Francis, church hierarchy were producing illegitimate children and selling penances. Everything old is new again.

Not ALL cardinals, bishops and priests are corrupt. My own parish priest serves up orthodox homilies each Sunday and the reaction is to walk away. Today's magnificent homily was delivered to 12 parishioners who showed up for Mass. It grieves me no end that those who need and want to hear this priest speak the "truth" are nowhere to be found. Those who are privileged to have him as a pastor, a veritable shepherd, reconcile his preaching to being "old world" ... i.e. "old fashioned". They pay him no heed.

The Maronites benefited from VCII. Consequently, in their case, they're now better off than before and still they prefer to attend the watered down liturgies served up at the "ultra liberal" RC churches. Why? Because, they're 'more palatable'. They don't encroach on the conscience. (One of our parishioners approached Father asking if he could incorporate some of thoe more "up beat" hymns sung at the local RC Churches. He educated her in the history of the Church, explaining that "we don't come to church to be entertained" but to worship our Lord.) Father doesn't care if 2 or 200 show up, he firmly believes that he will be held accountable in the eyes of God for what he preaches and never wavers in teaching solid catholic doctrine.

He not only attends to his Maronite parish but also assists the RC diocese of Albany in whatever capacity they need him. He has taken on the EEM's at the local hospital where he serves as chaplain and castigated the nun in charge of the chaplaincy program. Recently, at my suggestion, he met with a local K of C which has been without a chaplain for several years (I'm told that without a chaplain, a council is literally dead). I had hoped that they could mutually benefit from the relationship. During the meeting, Father told them outright that he not only believes in the K of C, is a 3rd degree knight but would also serve as their Chaplain. The two old gentlemen looked at him as if he had just landed form another planet. Not one to shirk responsibilites, much less a promise, he has now been 'officially' installed as their Chaplain, by Bishop Howard Hubbard of the RC Diocese of Albany (recall that Father is first a Maronite then a Latin priest). He has worked with them over the past few months to clean up the area surrounding their Council home. When none of the knights knew their financial status, he encouraged them to pull out the books and look them over. In the process they discovered that they were totally broke. They reluctantly decided to seel their Council Hall and Father offered them the use of his church for their meetings + his assistance in rebuilding their council.

When a local group of area catholics could not find a priest to celebrate Mass at 3am on the vigil of the feasts of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, as a last resort, they called my pastor. Out of devotion to the Blessed Mother, he could not refuse. He never told them that the night on which the vigil began, he would be driving 8+ hours RT to Kennedy Airport to pick up his mother and brother who were arrivining from Lebanon to visit with him. They didn't arrive back here until close to midnight. For fear of falling asleep, Father remained awake until 2:30am at which time he drove over to the church to celebrate the Maronite Divine Liturgy for those area catholics still devoted to celebrating this feast. Word spread amongst the devout catholics that the Mass would be a Maronite Divine Liturgy. It was the largest turnout they have had in many years.

You tell me, then, why even the most devout catholics, knowing there was such a priest in their midst would shy away from the parish where he celebrates Mass. Hubbard is the product of VCII's ultra liberal, left wing promoters. He has served in that capacity for nearly 28 years and still has 8 more to go. The parking lot at my (now former) RC parish is packed to capacity each Sunday and that church is being 'wreckovated' to accomodate the large crowds. There is NO crucifix in that church, contemporary music rules and the pastor often eliminates certain words from the Creed to make it more 'inclusive'. Meanwhile, our pastor is struggling to raise money to renovate an old Methodist/Episcopal church he acquired for a good price, to house his Maronite community. He has even offered to celebrate the Latin Mass on Sundays for those catholics in the local community whose parishes have been shut down by Bishop Hubbard. (That would be 5 parishes now closed!)

This situation extends well beyond VCII and directly into the secular society in which we live. Sad to say, but we live in a world where sinners no longer believe in sin and shun any priest who suggests they confess their errors. They prefer to believe the psychologists, psychotherapists and psychoanalysts who assure them that they are okay. For those of us called to a more profound faith based on a personal relationship with our Lord, we must place our total faith and confidence in Him who was betrayed by one of His own disciples.

As I said in the previous post, if you approach our Lord with a sincere heart and ask Him for guidance and direction, He will not fail you. You must begin with yourself and then pray for the others. Pray for the cardinals, bishops and priests who have been misled. Like us, they are human and subject to the same weaknesses. We live in evil times; an age where Satan is actively at work. His primary target will always be the Catholic Church for she is the one founded by God's only Son. The temptation to castigate the errant prelates comes from Satan himself. Look within yourself to recognize the reality of this situation; then begin to pray for these prelates (it took me a year to reach that point). Our Lady of Fatima reminds us that Christ's priests need our prayers in order to remain pure.

The holy priests are there but Satan has shielded the ears of many catholics to their voices. Pray for them! They are the enemies of Satan and need your prayers as much as those who have fallen victim to his wiles.

15 posted on 08/14/2005 4:28:52 PM PDT by NYer ("Each person is meant to exist. Each person is God's own idea." - Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer
This situation extends well beyond VCII and directly into the secular society in which we live.

This is a very important point. In the context of the "relocation" of the Holy Days, I think it may be the key point. In today's American society, nothing is valued that is not paid employment. As volunteers (Scout leaders, Sunday School teachers, nursery workers, etc.) we experience a lack of consideration that people would never think of perpetrating at their place of employment.

Would a person fail to inform his boss that he's not going to be able to attend a meeting? Of course not. Will he fail to inform his family that he's not going to arrive home in time for supper, or bedtime? You betcha!

People just don't see attending Mass on a Holy Day of Obligation as an "obligation," because they don't risk a financial penalty by skipping it ... and that is NOT the fault of Vatican 2, at least in my opinion.

(But I did think the "Constitution on the Church in the Modern World" had some goofball stuff in it!)

16 posted on 08/14/2005 4:47:38 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Liberals: Too stupid to realize Dick Cheney is the real Dark Lord.)
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To: Tax-chick; BulldogCatholic; AnAmericanMother
In today's American society, nothing is valued that is not paid employment.

Keyword = "today". Some of us remember a time in American society when stores, malls, business and many restaurants were closed on Sunday out of respect for its celebration as a holy day.

Money (greed) is the driving force of today's economy. It is so prevalent that we have come to accept and no longer question the necessity to 'open for business' on Sunday. If anything, it takes a certain perspecuity for workers to organize and arrange their weekends so as not to shop on Sunday. Hey .. I did it for many years and occasionally will drop into a store to pick up something I forgot on Saturday. It is a lost discipline to view Sunday as one of rest. Who better than you to use the weekend as a time to accomplish what cannot be done during the week.

As you point out, there is no longer any respect for the workload of other 'volunteers'. Last weekend, Father asked all the able bodied to assist with cleaning the church. Since joining this parish, I have taken those words to heart. What a humbling experience to clean the House of God! But that is my view! As has been the case each time this request went out, 3 of us showed up. Some of the other parishioners point to us to suggest that we don't have a "life" like them with so much responsibility. The words "pesonal sacrifice" never enter their mind. That's okay! I 'feel' called to do this and do it out of love, appreciation and commitment. Last Saturday, I was literally on my knees before the Tabernacle, spray can of Pledge in one hand and dustcloth in the other. It was a moment of conversation between me and my Lord! I expect no gratitude from the parish for this; if anything, I find it embarassing.

There have been many years when I was so involved in the secular life of entertaining family and guests, attending my daughter's Soccer games, swimming matches, or driving her to tennis camp, that I cannot fault those who do not show up. My attitudes have changed with the response to prayer. So now I pray for the others.

17 posted on 08/14/2005 5:17:46 PM PDT by NYer ("Each person is meant to exist. Each person is God's own idea." - Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer

Your priest sounds like an absolute treasure. Would he like to come to the Diocese of Charlotte? (:-))

Things have changed for worse all over, not just in the Catholic Church. I take my kids to Holy Day Masses, and it's not unusual for me to hear gripes and get dirty looks from people who are upset that seven children under 14 don't sit like statues the entire time. Not usually from the elderly, who often had their own large families, but from baby-boomers or my own generation. (I swear, some day I'm going to have a Total Hysterical Spasm when somebody says, "Don't you know what causes that?")

We go to the church cleanup and yardwork days, too, unless all the kids of working age are at camp.

I'm only 39, so maybe I'm just being a romantic, but it seems to me that it's a new thing for the workplace to be the center of life. Didn't people once have their lives - religious celebrations, entertaining, political activism - in the home, church, and community, and go to their workplace to earn a living?


18 posted on 08/14/2005 5:40:58 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Liberals: Too stupid to realize Dick Cheney is the real Dark Lord.)
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To: NYer
I do recall the suspension of alternate side of the street parking on Holy Days.

He then pointed to the collapse of ancient civilizations such as Greece and Rome, citing the same circumstances

Parking is key, it seems.

19 posted on 08/14/2005 5:48:00 PM PDT by humblegunner (If you're gonna die, die with your boots on.)
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To: BulldogCatholic

I think a lot of people were surprised. Guess we have to write to our Bishops and tell them what we think.

Hopefully you won't be berated as the messenger like I was.


20 posted on 08/14/2005 5:53:36 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: gbcdoj; donbosco74

**You know, you can still go to Church, even if you aren't obligated to do so...**

And I am sure many will. I know I will.


21 posted on 08/14/2005 5:55:04 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Tax-chick

**I'd also like to see civil holidays observed on their appropriate dates,**

Me too!


22 posted on 08/14/2005 5:55:50 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Tax-chick

God
Family
Country
Work
Other things

Somehow that order that I learned has gotten skewed, hasn't it.


23 posted on 08/14/2005 5:59:01 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: lightman
This traditional Lutheran still can't figure out how celebrating Ascension on the Seventh Sunday of Easter is still forty days. Forty three equals forty? This new math amazes me.

???

'fraid I don't follow you.

We in the RCC celebrated the 13th Sunday after Pentacost. Where to you reckon 7th Sunday?

Perhaps the Eastern observation?

24 posted on 08/14/2005 6:11:14 PM PDT by kstewskis ("I don't know what I know, but I know that it's big..." Jerry Fletcher)
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To: Salvation

I think the list now runs:

Work
Other things
Sleep


25 posted on 08/14/2005 6:12:10 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Liberals: Too stupid to realize Dick Cheney is the real Dark Lord.)
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To: Salvation

I am, admittedly, generalizing. Of course there are many exceptions to this (cranky) analysis :-).


26 posted on 08/14/2005 6:13:24 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Liberals: Too stupid to realize Dick Cheney is the real Dark Lord.)
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To: Tax-chick

As a non-Catholic could someone please explain to me why the rules of the Catholic keep changing. As far as I know the church is susposed to be based on the teachings of the Bible and the Bible has not changed in 2000 years.


27 posted on 08/14/2005 6:28:21 PM PDT by tenn2005 (Birth is mearly an event; it is the path walked that becomes one's life.)
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To: tenn2005

There's a difference between non-doctrinal traditions, like holy days of obligation, and doctrinal traditions, like the Trinity. The first is important, but not as important as the second.


28 posted on 08/14/2005 7:00:41 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - Tolkien)
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To: Tax-chick
I take my kids to Holy Day Masses, and it's not unusual for me to hear gripes and get dirty looks from people who are upset that seven children under 14 don't sit like statues the entire time.

Father would love having all of you at Mass! He calls the parents with small children, reminding them of the need to bring the kids to church so they can get to know their God, throughout the year, not just on Holy Days. He is very patient with the smallest children who love to dash up the aisles during Mass. Alas the parents are embarrased and stop coming.

Didn't people once have their lives - religious celebrations, entertaining, political activism - in the home, church, and community, and go to their workplace to earn a living?

Absolutely! That was back in the days of the Blue Laws - nothing could be sold on Sunday. It was truly a day of rest!

At the risk of sounding like some conspiratorial twit, TV had a profound effect on life. Advertising promotions prompted the demand for extended shopping hours. As electronics began to proliferate, so did the demand for faster and better means of communication. Now we "buy and sell" 24/7 365 days a year. (Believe it or not, there was a time not that long ago when supermarkets and shops closed on Christmas and Easter).

29 posted on 08/15/2005 3:24:28 AM PDT by NYer ("Each person is meant to exist. Each person is God's own idea." - Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: tenn2005

The Church has always ackowledged that many rules of observance are man-made laws, just as the laws of the United States are, and are just as subject to change. Faith and morals do not change, but rules of practice may.


30 posted on 08/15/2005 4:04:23 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Liberals: Too stupid to realize Dick Cheney is the real Dark Lord.)
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To: NYer

Our pastor is very welcoming to children; it's others in the congregation that can be exclusive.

I used to take my kids to daily Mass back in Oklahoma ... back when I only had 3 or 4 kids, and they had daily Mass at 5:00 p.m. (after school and naps, before supper :-). The old people were always nice. Once my Tom walked right up to the altar during the Eucharistic prayer and said, "Father! Look at my new brown shoes! Do you like me?" and Father said, "Of course I like you, Tom. Great shoes. Now go back and sit down!"


31 posted on 08/15/2005 4:09:31 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Liberals: Too stupid to realize Dick Cheney is the real Dark Lord.)
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To: Tax-chick

That warms my heart. God bless your Tom for ever and always! And God bless that warm-hearted priest.


32 posted on 08/15/2005 4:22:33 AM PDT by Siobhan ("Whenever you come to save Rome, make all the noise you want." -- Pius XII)
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To: Siobhan

Tom's 8 now, and plans to be Pope, unless he's martyred first ... he says he's going to be a missionary to Iraq! He's always been very intense.


33 posted on 08/15/2005 4:28:53 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Liberals: Too stupid to realize Dick Cheney is the real Dark Lord.)
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To: NYer

This is one of the reasons I really dislike the "changing" of holy days to the nearest Sunday or some other day that fits the schedule of the secular world.

If we lose the concept that the life of the Church is special and its calendar - with feasts and fasts and special events that have nothing to do with commercial interests - is unimportant, we've handed a big victory to the secularists.

I think the tendency in the modern Church to drop all mention of the Saints and their feast days is also a big mistake. Once upon a time, even in this country, people used to know their name's day (feast of the saint for whom they were named). Now, of course, people don't even seem to be required to give their kids saints' names - I mean, when is the feast day for "St. Ashlee"?

VatII somehow got it all backwards. While this is not in the official documents, the "reforms" that came out of the Council in practice certainly eliminated this sense of the sacred and the reality of the invisible world. Time to bring it back, and restoring certain aspects of practice - REAL holy days of obligation, a requirement to pick the name of a saint for your child, the inclusion of the feasts of the saints in the weekly bulletin, etc. - might help.

BTW, somebody from another diocese here in Florida told me that her grandchildren were the only ones to pick saints' names at their Confirmation! The priest told them to pick the name of somebody they liked. Some kids picked the names of friends or family members or even movie stars.


34 posted on 08/15/2005 4:29:13 AM PDT by livius
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To: Tax-chick

My dear, I am going to pray for your Tom every day. I don't say that lightly. I mean that with my whole heart.


35 posted on 08/15/2005 5:12:28 AM PDT by Siobhan ("Whenever you come to save Rome, make all the noise you want." -- Pius XII)
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To: Siobhan

Thank you so much, Siobhan! His picture is on my profile page, the boy in the red shirt.


36 posted on 08/15/2005 5:23:18 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Liberals: Too stupid to realize Dick Cheney is the real Dark Lord.)
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To: tenn2005

Because of "aggiornamento", Vatican II and a slew of Modernists who are bent on her destruction.

No other faith has changed as much these past 40 years, Our defense used to be our faith, traditions, and our unity, Vatican II and the liberals have done away with that in the name of ecumenism and lay participation (as they feared the Protestants hence the reason our New Mass mimics the mass of Luther in so many ways).

The 4 marks of the church are gone, as well as the sacraments as they have been changed as well. Baptism no longer has anything to do with original sin but is a "welcoming of one" into the christian community. Priestly ordinations were changed in 1968 as were the very words used to consecrate our Lords body and make it "the Lords Supper" instead of "the sacrifice of the Mass"

This is why many who know of these changes, done overnight and really, with no offense to those who are Protestant, dont want to be Protestant and the Novus Ordo is trying to make us be (hence the reason why they joined the WCC which was started by the Protestants and the change of the mass in 1970 done overnight) and those that want to still be Catholic attend the Traditional Mass and WILL go to mass today as it IS a Holy day in the Traditional societies.

We can only pray for our fallen away Novus Ordo brethered that they realize that they are being led down a slippery slope that even to outsiders such as the Orthodox and Protestants and even Jewish friends of mine they cant quite understand what has happened to the New Church of the Novus Ordo


37 posted on 08/15/2005 5:48:05 AM PDT by BulldogCatholic
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To: BulldogCatholic
We can only pray for our fallen away Novus Ordo

Are we going to start this up again? I am sure people appreciate prayer, made in good faith.

If you hold that the Novus Ordo is an invalid or harmful mass, then you have fallen into error, and perhaps schism. The same holds true for those who hold the Tridentine Mass is no longer valid. The comment about Luther, and about the Church removing the four marks are equally untrue, and hints to your actual purpose; which seems to be trolling.

The Bishops in the dioceses set up the calendar. They have done so for centuries. They have adjusted dates to celebrate feasts based on many reasons, not all of them religious.

I don't care for a dispensation of HDOs on Monday and Saturday. It causes one unintended consequence, a Parish will not plan extra masses for the Monday or Saturday HDO, and that makes it hard for those whop do observe.

If you realize that Bishops have adjusted dates of HDOs well before Vatican II, then the OP seems to be trolling.
38 posted on 08/15/2005 8:17:06 AM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: Dominick

Trolling>? For what? Novus Ordo supporters who are embarrased that their Bishops and the Pope no longer require and or allow you to:

Fast 3 hours before mass

Kneel to receive the sacred species

Allow all kinds of liturgical dancing and music

Allow communion in the hand from a "minister"

Worship "eachother" instead of God

Partake in the "Lords Supper" and not "The Sacrifice of the Mass"

Dress however you please (shorts, flip flops, immodest midriffs showing, etc)

Hold hands, clap, sing whatever during the "Pater Noster"

Altar girls

Now because a holy day falls before or after a Sunday, as long as you attend Mass on the sunday that "counts"!

Retranslated the bible "The NAB" to make it "politically correct"

Allow 60,000 annulments a year!

Hate anything pre-Vatican II

The question I always pose to those who throw the accusation around about the NO mass being valid or invalid is a simple analogy, and I note you have placed much emphasis on the Bishops, and it is as follows:

If the Pope or for that matter tomorrow told you that he (she? soon to be?) told you to that Buddah had much to offer and as at Fatima where JPII allowed the Hindus to worship, your diocese as well as most other dioceses except for maybe 10% of the church's (which will still allow your Novus Ordo Mass but with "modifications") and you were to start incorporating some of the ways hindus, etc worship into your liturgy (and the Bishop can do what they want as we all know)...what would you do?

That is the same question that many Traditional Catholics were faced with after Vatican II and in the past 40 years. We have been told that we must worship like Protestants, only we are still going to call ourselves Catholics. No-you may have been able to sell that "obedience" line to the cafeteria catholics and the Kerry supporters who are Catholics (some 50% of catholics voted for the Pro abortion Kerry as well as Clinton). But it does not work on those that are real "Catholics" as handed down from the Apostles.


39 posted on 08/15/2005 10:07:04 AM PDT by BulldogCatholic
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To: BulldogCatholic
Ya know what all those things are not to this point. Like I said before in my post above, the shifting of HDOs has been done well before Vatican II.

Please take your SSPX pamphlets and take them to some non-Catholic aficionados of that sort of thing.

Cutting and pasting your argument from another thread is exactly a violation of the TOS here...
40 posted on 08/15/2005 11:15:43 AM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: Dominick

Sorry Dominick about the cut and paste but you essentially were accusing me of being something that is nothing to be ashamed of on both threads and I am not the best typist in the world as my misspellings on the borard point this out.

Dont forget Our Lord and Apostles were put down and crucified, as well as all early christian martyrs and saints, for not being "popular" and ridiculed for being "blashpemers" by the Pharisies and then the Romans (do you think JPII would have really been the rock star pope if he actually was DEFENDING Catholicism.

So if that means that being a Traditionalist and standing up for what is right, then so be it. Remember, if we are wrong now then YOU were wrong THEN


41 posted on 08/15/2005 2:59:38 PM PDT by BulldogCatholic
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To: Tax-chick

----I'm only 39, so maybe I'm just being a romantic, but it seems to me that it's a new thing for the workplace to be the center of life. Didn't people once have their lives - religious celebrations, entertaining, political activism - in the home, church, and community, and go to their workplace to earn a living?---

Mrs. Tax,

I'll give you $1,000 if you can show me one tombstone anywhere that is inscribed with "I wish I had spent more time at the office" or "Loving Father, Husband, Grandfather and Total Workaholic."

There is your job and there is your life; wise people like you never confuse the two.

Francis A.


42 posted on 08/15/2005 5:08:28 PM PDT by Frank Sheed ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." ~GK Chesterton.)
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To: NYer

I went to Mass today, Bishop or no Bishop.

F


43 posted on 08/15/2005 5:10:14 PM PDT by Frank Sheed ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." ~GK Chesterton.)
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To: Frank Sheed; Tax-chick; BulldogCatholic; Dominick; Siobhan; Salvation; sandyeggo
I went to Mass today, Bishop or no Bishop.

You no doubt brought a smile to our Blessed Mother's face! God bless you for that!

Divine Liturgy was at 7pm. There were 12 of us in attendance. No matter, Francis' two children served as acolytes (in full cassock and surplice) and our organist was there as well. Father picked up one of the seasoned parishioners who can no longer drive and brought her to church.

Two of the parishioners who showed up were confused because they have a religious calendar on their wall that does not indicate today as a Holy Day of Obligation. Both are older and recalled that it used to be when they were younger, so they "took the chance". Father welcomed them graciously, so pleased that they had come. He spoke with his mother earlier today and she described the churches in Lebanon as packed to overflowing. It's a MAJOR Holy Day in the East.

In his homily, Father noted that these feast days were intentionally placed in the liturgical calendar to coincide with specific aspects of harvest. August 15, throughout most of the northern hemisphere, is the beginning of grape harvest. In the East, they connect Mary to the grape harvest with the title 'Mother of the Harvest' (or something like that), always drawing us back to her role in the Divine plan of Redemption.

He also spoke of the great honor given her by God to bear Him in human form. And the respect due her for accepting. (Father's choice of words was much better than mine). One thing he said that grabbed my heart was that Jesus would not allow His mother's death to be like that of other mortals. Out of great love and respect, He came to bring her home to her place at his side in Heaven. She is the only woman ever assumed to heaven and because of that special bond of love between her and her Son, she is much more than a saint. She is our intercessor and we should bring our problems to her to lay before her Son.

What a beautiful Mass! What a wonderful priest! How I wish I could fill these pews for him with catholics who want to hear the homilies he delivers. I'll have to bring this to Mary :-) and ask her to intercede. If our Lord could lead me here, surely He can and will lead others.

Happy Feast of the Assumption to you all!

44 posted on 08/15/2005 6:21:23 PM PDT by NYer ("Each person is meant to exist. Each person is God's own idea." - Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: Frank Sheed

I went to Mass, too. James hit me in the eye with a Matchbox car - "Peace be with you, sir; am I bleeding near my right eye?" He found a calculator in my purse and decided it was a cell phone, so behind the readings and the homily you could hear, "Hi! Okay ... whatever. Bye!" Pat hollered, "Father, Josie's going to give me a toaster!" Father Hawker looked stuned. Bill, who was serving, tried to pretend he didn't know us. Tom had hysterics, hyperventilated, and turned aubergine. Father sat down and cracked up. Fortunately, the service was almost over by then!

I'm sure the Blessed Virgin - I imagine her as something like FReeper Alouette - has seen it all before ...


45 posted on 08/15/2005 6:23:28 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Officially around the bend.)
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To: Frank Sheed
There is your job and there is your life

Well, that's what I thought. I'm puzzled every year, at Christmas and Easter, especially, when there's so much in the news about whether or not businesses are going to have Christmas parties, or whether customers will be wished "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays" or just "Be careful out there!" And all that stuff. I thought religious celebrations belonged in the home and in the church, not in offices and government agencies.

46 posted on 08/15/2005 6:27:26 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Officially around the bend.)
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To: Tax-chick

--stuned--

Oh no! Pat stuned him with your beeber?! The rascal. Bet Josie put him up to it!

F


47 posted on 08/15/2005 6:49:56 PM PDT by Frank Sheed ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." ~GK Chesterton.)
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To: Tax-chick

--I thought religious celebrations belonged in the home and in the church, not in offices and government agencies.--

I love the shocked expressions on the faces of salepeople when I wish them a "Merry Christmas!" with a look of total good cheer. Some actually look back as if I had cursed at them out loud! Others smile as their PC defense-survival mask melts away.

F


48 posted on 08/15/2005 6:53:44 PM PDT by Frank Sheed ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." ~GK Chesterton.)
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To: NYer
Mass was no issue here, plenty of people, where we used the regular Church. Often a side chapel is used for Daily Mass.

I am pleased that most everyone here saw through the ham-fisted attempt at blaming Vatican II for moving the HDO from today to Sunday. Bishops have used the normal power they have issue dispensations of this type, as they had issued for centuries. I cite Bishops who issued local dispensations for Lent, for the purpose of celebrating the Feast of St. Patrick.
49 posted on 08/15/2005 6:57:10 PM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: BulldogCatholic
their Bishops and the Pope no longer require and or allow you to:
Fast 3 hours before mass

Catholics aren't allowed to fast three hours before Mass? Really?

By the way, are you aware that the reduction of the fast to three hours was an innovation of Pope Pius XII? It was. Before then, Catholics were all obligated to fast from midnight. Perhaps you should modify your polemics some, because presenting the three hour fast as a "tradition" is laughable.

Kneel to receive the sacred species

I receive Holy Communion kneeling. This practice is certainly allowed by the Pope: "Therefore, it is not licit to deny Holy Communion to any of Christ’s faithful solely on the grounds, for example, that the person wishes to receive the Eucharist kneeling or standing." (Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum, §91).

50 posted on 08/15/2005 7:01:30 PM PDT by gbcdoj (Let us ask the Lord with tears, that according to his will so he would shew his mercy to us Jud 8:17)
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