Justification by Faith Alone: Catholics and Protestants Together?

http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/gospjust/faith_a.htm ^ | 1996 | James Akin

[Gamecock]

Maybe we should go and stay outside the Vatican and set up Camp Calvin or Camp Luther.......think we'd get any press? ;^)

Hehehe. Maybe if we riot or took shots at military aircraft.

[Campion]

Actually it was "added" to the legalisms of the jews salvation by works by Christ Himself

Except that Christ makes it clear that mere surface belief is not sufficient. Matthew 25, for example.

But why don't you define "faith"? Before you do, first remember that your definition has to account for the fact that St. Paul writes that even if he has faith to move mountains, but has not love, he is nothing ... and then that he also writes that neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love

[RnMomof7]

12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation. 13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.

Notice the emphasis

IT IS GOD THAT WORKETH IN YOU BOTH TO MAKE YOU WILL AND TO ACCOMPLISH ANY WORK .

God does not work in the unsaved.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The fruit does not give life to the tree, the tree gives life to the fruit .

[annalex]

It is correct, God's grace is the engine of all good works, as the Church teaches. None of that invalidates the need for men to freely choose to do works of love.

[RnMomof7]

Except that Christ makes it clear that mere surface belief is not sufficient. Matthew 25, for example.

Except that scripture never says that the sheep are different from the goats because they did good works does it?

It says that the sheep did good works and would receive a reward .

If a goat gives you its coat does it become a sheep? OR can the sheep give you a wool coat because it is a sheep .?

But why don't you define "faith"? Before you do, first remember that your definition has to account for the fact that St. Paul writes that even if he has faith to move mountains, but has not love, he is nothing ... and then that he also writes that neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love

Is this written to the men that are ALREADY SAVED ? See ya need to know the audience .

1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Not a word there about salvation is there? It is written to the church not the unsaved

[RnMomof7]

It is correct, God's grace is the engine of all good works, as the Church teaches. None of that invalidates the need for men to freely choose to do works of love.

Indeed our works do not produce grace in us, grace is unmerited favor .

Does one freely chose something against something God has ordained ( that is what the Bible calls our works) .

Man is saved by faith alone, coming out of that salvation is the desire to do good works that GOD has placed in your heart.

Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

Our works are the fruit of our salvation ..NOT ITS ROOTS .

Jesus asks can a bad tree bear good fruit? The answer is NO.

James rightly points out that a tree without fruit is dead. BUT the fruit is a result of the life of the tree not the cause of the life in the tree.

Jesus made clear that a man that does work in the name of Christ that HE has not ordained is of no eternal benefit. BUT Fruit that comes out of our salvation and is a work ordained for us to do ( not one we wanted to do for our own reasons) is the work that pleases God and is seen by men as a glory to our God.

We are saved by God for His glory , He ordains our good works for his glory, not our salvation or the recognition of men .

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but accordingto his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

[annalex]

If the work is done by the Grace without the cooperation of man's free will, why fear and why tremble?

[RnMomof7]

f the work is done by the Grace without the cooperation of man's free will, why fear and why tremble?

If it is a work that a man has determined he wills to do by his will, why would he have fear and trembling?

As I remember the story of Jonah, God had ordained a work for him and he sure had fear and trembling

[annalex]

We fear because we have a responsibility to work toward God and not away from Him. Since it is our choice, and we are not omniscient, we fear to err.

But if God works through us like a gardener works through a spade, then we would not have to fear anything. A tool has no reason to fear.

[InterestedQuestioner]

"Luther did not add it to scripture He simply showed men what Gods word says as opposed to what men say."

Actually, the Bible doesn't say we're saved by faith alone, it says we're not saved by faith alone. The reference here is correct, Luther did indeed add his teaching to the Bible when he translated it. He also effectively removed the part of the Bible that says we are saved not by faith alone.

To be correct, "salvation by faith alone" is what men say, saved "not by faith alone is what God's word says.

[InterestedQuestioner]

"[Justification by faith alone] is the article upon which the church stands or falls." ~ Martin Luther"

Do you agree with this statement, and if so, why? The Bible nowhere says we are saved by Faith alone, it says we are not saved by faith alone. Given that the Church existed for 15 centuries before the invention of the doctrine of "salvation by faith alone," it's simply not possible for this statement to be true.

[InterestedQuestioner]

"Indeed, Grace is inside a leaky container. It is constantly leaking out and needs to be replenished by fulfilling rituals and penance. Sound familiar? I am not talking about Catholics, but rather many Evangelicals. What are the rituals and penance? Repeated altar calls with prayers ending with the caveat "If you really meant it in your heart..." Evangelicals are left wondering did I really mean it."

I'm surprised to see this comment, and I'd be very interested in hearing more of your take on this. It seems that this would be a logical outcome of an approach to Christianity that interprets strong belief at the time of conversion as a guarantee of salvation. Given that people can and will sin after conversion, this seems to be a set up for someone wondering if they have really converted to Christ. Is this different from Reformed theology?

[InterestedQuestioner]

"God does not work in the unsaved."

Can you explain what you mean by this statement? In particular, what do you understand the term "unsaved" to mean, and what do you understand when you refer to a "saved" person?

[InterestedQuestioner]

Except that scripture never says that the sheep are different from the goats because they did good works does it?

In reference to Matthew 25, the scene of judgment where the sheep and the goats are separated into two groups: one is sent to Heaven, the other is dismissed from God to hell.

Both sides call Jesus Lord, but they are nonetheless separated into two groups. It says is that the ones who will go to heaven are those who have acted compassionately, and those who depart from God are those did not act compassionately. It specifically says that it is the lack of compassion for which God dismisses them. Notice that it nowhere says anything about mere belief, the very clearly expressed reason for separating the two groups is on the basis of whether or not they acted with compassion.

[Gamecock]

***It seems that this would be a logical outcome of an approach to Christianity that interprets strong belief at the time of conversion as a guarantee of salvation.***


The modern American religion stresses personal experience and emotion over truth. We make more out of the actual conversion that than the actual life and death of Christ. Couple that with a lack of solid exegesis and you have people who are latching onto the latest spiritual trend. Whether it's the Prayer of Jabez, or the Purpose Driven Life, Christ is not preached. That causes a lot of weak kneed Christians.

[Petrosius]

I should perhaps have noted that I posted this article because on another thread (Lutheran leader calls for an ecumenical council to address growing biblical fundamentalism) it seemed that after the normal back and forth, charges and counter-charges in this debate between Catholics and Protestants, that a possible consensus was arising. In summary there was this exchange:

gscc:

If you understand the nature of true faith from which we are saved then you understand that the transformation of your life will produce fruits or good works. A life void of the signs of the salvation experience is probably void of a true commitment to pick up your cross and follow Christ. As we experience salvation through Christ's work on the cross we will bear fruit, however there is no amount of works that will earn any degree of salvation.

Mr. Lucky:

It may be we're talking past one another by our church's different traditional concepts of "faith". Be that as it may, my entry to this discussion was to answer to the obviously false charge that the doctrine of "sola gratia" was unscriptural. Whether you subscribe to "sola gratia" or not, it is clearly a belief based upon scripture. Understand that (most) orthodox Protestants draw a distinction between a sort of merely professed faith and a saving faith.

Petrosius:

But if you need "a true commitment to pick up your cross and follow Christ," are you too not adding something to "faith alone?" If you say that faith includes this commitment then you are using faith in a manner other than the original Reformers. It would also be different than the way Catholics use the term "faith" when we are speaking of faith and works where faith is understood as an intellectual assent to God. Is it possible that we are saying the same thing with different meanings to the words?

I have repeatedly stated that Catholics do not believe that we earn our salvation by our works. Salvation is a complete gift. Rather the value of works, i.e. a life lived in righteousness, is that it completes the process of sanctification. This is a process that occurs after the act of faith. But a return to a life of sin after faith renders that faith useless.

Mr. Lucky:

The orthodox Lutheran position on Justification was stated 460 years ago in Article IV of the Augsburg Confession:

Also they teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strengths, merits or works, but are freely justified for Christ's sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake, who by His death, has made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight.

As a Lutheran, I believe nothing more about justification and nothing less.

Petrosius:

Does not this reduce faith to solely an intellectual assent to the saving action of Jesus Christ without the our commitment to live righteously? This is how Catholics understand the Protestant idea of salvation "by faith alone." This is also what I have often heard preached, quite explicitly, by some Evangelicals on the radio.

gscc:

Reducing the doctrine of 'Salvation by faith alone' to "solely an intellectual assent to the saving action of Jesus Christ without a commitment to live righteously", is equivalent to reducing your view to equalizing it with the sale of indulgences. You have to be able to come up with something better than that.

Petrosius:

This is not a charge but an attempt to understand. As I stated, I have heard this understanding preached quite explicitly by Evangelicals on the radio. This is also the Catholic understanding (misunderstanding ?) of its meaning as contained in the Augsburg Confession. If this is wrong (and here I am only speaking of the formulation of the Augsburg Confession) please show where faith, as formulated in the confession, goes beyond the belief "that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake."

Is it possible that some Protestants hold this view and others do not?

I know that there are many other areas in which we disagree but is it possible that the debate between "faith alone" and "faith and works" is based on the different usages of the term "faith"?

I know how debates on FreeRepublic can wander all over the place so I would ask everyone that on this thread we could keep to the question above.

[InterestedQuestioner]

That's an interesting observation.

[InterestedQuestioner]

The author of this article is talking about two things:

1. How we get to heaven.

2. What separates us as Christians.


On the second point, with regards to salvation, he argues that it's words and definitions which are separating us--that we mean the same thing when we talk about Salvation, but either use different words to mean the same thing, or use the same words to mean different things. He also suggests that what we need is a common formulation--an agreed way of thinking about things.

According to his thesis, it is the understanding of the word faith that divides us. I might add that speculative theology divides us as well: that is, were the Bible completely clear about something, most of us could probably agree on it. It tends to be on issues where Scripture is not explicit that we come into disagreement.

With regards to salvation, gscc talks about a faith in terms of a commitment to Christ, and elsewhere he has talked about it in terms of an obedience to Christ. Could a formula be constructed that would utilize concepts such as those to accurately reflect a true Christian understanding of what is required for salvation, in such a way as to produce genuine agreement? Could we say, for example, that we are saved by Grace alone, and that God saves those with a total commitment to follow Christ in obedience to his Will?

[RnMomof7]

But if God works through us like a gardener works through a spade, then we would not have to fear anything. A tool has no reason to fear.

We do not need to fear anything , that is the comfort of our faith .

Isa 41:10 Fear thou not; for I [am] with thee: be not dismayed; for I [am] thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

Isa 41:13 For I the LORD thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee.

Luk 1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

Pro 3:26 For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.

Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

[RnMomof7]

Actually, the Bible doesn't say we're saved by faith alone, it says we're not saved by faith alone. The reference here is correct, Luther did indeed add his teaching to the Bible when he translated it. He also effectively removed the part of the Bible that says we are saved not by faith alone.
To be correct, "salvation by faith alone" is what men say, saved "not by faith alone is what God's word says.

Mk.16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Jn.3:18, 36 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Acts 16:30-31 "Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

Rom.1:16-17 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God salvation to every one that believeth .... As it is written, The just shall live by faith."

Rom.3:20 "By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."

Rom.3:28 "A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Rom.4:2 "For if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory?"

Rom.4:13 "For the promise ... was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith."

Rom.5:1 "Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Rom.10:9 "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Gal.2:16 "A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."

Gal.3:11-12 "The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith."

Eph.2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

You can believe Sola Fide, Sola Christus or Sola Ecclesia, not both. But remember God never promised salvation by works or the church