Justification by Faith Alone: Catholics and Protestants Together?

http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/gospjust/faith_a.htm ^ | 1996 | James Akin

[Quester]

Could we say, for example, that we are saved by Grace alone, and that God saves those with a total commitment to follow Christ in obedience to his Will ?

Who has such a 'total commitment' ?

Would not such one be perfectly obedient ?

Know of anyone who is ?

[annalex]

We do not need to fear anything

So, you disagree with St. Paul in Phil 2:12?

Can I ask you, next time if you have the urge to go to the concordance and pull the quotes you like with "fear" in them, also tell me why a particular quote is relevant, and why you reject the quote we are discussing?

[InterestedQuestioner]

RnMomof7

Thank you for your post, I appreciate your listing of those wonderful Scriptures which demonstrate the importance of Faith in God. However, if you look at those verses, you will notice that none of them say that we are saved by faith alone. You've listed the verses that you think say we are saved by faith alone, and they're right there in front of you. Look and see, none of them say we are saved by faith alone. As it turns out, nowhere in Bible does it say that we are saved by Faith alone.

Now you also listed a lot of wonderful Scriptures that discuss belief. Let's be very clear about those, they don't juxtapose works versus belief at all, and they definitely, definitely don't say we are saved by belief alone.

"You can believe Sola Fide, Sola Christus or Sola Ecclesia, not both. But remember God never promised salvation by works or the church"

No problem with sola Christus, but let's not oppose Christ to his Church. As for sola fide, that's a man made tradition, it was invented a millennial and a half after the time of Christ. It's unbiblical and anti-scriptural.

I suspect that the tradition "saved by faith alone" may have been taken to an extreme in this case, and that when Scripture says, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved," that you have understood that to mean that you are already saved based on a conversion experience. That doesn't follow as a logical reading of the Scripture. Have I misunderstood your position?

[RnMomof7]

Can you explain what you mean by this statement? In particular, what do you understand the term "unsaved" to mean, and what do you understand when you refer to a "saved" person?

The Bible tells us who is saved.

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

A saved man is a temple of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit works in him .

The Holy Spirit does not indwell the unsaved.

[RnMomof7]

Can I ask you, next time if you have the urge to go to the concordance and pull the quotes you like with "fear" in them, also tell me why a particular quote is relevant, and why you reject the quote we are discussing?

with fear and trembling--the very feeling enjoined on "servants," as to what ought to accompany their "obedience" ( Eph 6:5 ). So here: See that, as "servants" to God, after the example of Christ, ye be so "with the fear and trembling" which becomes servants; not slavish fear, but trembling anxiety not to fall short of the goal ( 1Cr 9:26, 27 Hbr 4:1 , "Let us fear, lest a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any should come short of it"), resulting from a sense of our human insufficiency, and from the consciousness that all depends on the power of God, "who worketh both to will and to do" ( Rom 11:20 ). "Paul, though joyous, writes seriously" [J. J. WOLF].
Jamieson, Fausett & Brown

[RnMomof7]

Thank you for your post, I appreciate your listing of those wonderful Scriptures which demonstrate the importance of Faith in God. However, if you look at those verses, you will notice that none of them say that we are saved by faith alone. You've listed the verses that you think say we are saved by faith alone, and they're right there in front of you. Look and see, none of them say we are saved by faith alone. As it turns out, nowhere in Bible does it say that we are saved by Faith alone.

So would you say that Jesus and the apostles had a HIDDEN gospel they did not teach?

[annalex]

the very feeling enjoined on "servants,"

"Servant" implies work. "Work" is the first word in the verse. St. Paul puts it in the imperative. He mentions fear, an emotion meaningless if the salvation had been already assured. Why do you twist the scripture like that? The meaning is clear, we must work out our salvation every day. The next verse, about God driving the work is not there to negate the previous verse, but to explain that grace is necessary for all good work.

[InterestedQuestioner]

"Who has such a 'total commitment' ?
Would not such one be perfectly obedient ?
Know of anyone who is ?"

Good questions, Quester. Frankly though, I don't know of anyone who has faith even the size of a mustard seed, so perfection on the part of the believer may not be the appropriate standard by which to judge our theological formulations. I think all of us have been totally committed to Christ at one point or another in our lives, and most of us are committed to Christ right now, so it seems like a good place to start. As for perfect obedience, I didn't use that term myself, I simply referred to an obedience to the Will of Christ, and that would involve turning to God for mercy and forgiveness when we sin. That would be true obedience, wouldn't it? Judas and Peter both abandon Christ, to a certain extent, and Christ is fully aware that they will do so. Yet Peter goes to Christ after his fall and is re-habilitated, whereas Judas loses all hope and destroys himself. Which one was obedient to Christ? Frankly, it's the one who loved Christ, and he is the one who repented and went to Christ.

I would be happy with a formulation that said we are saved by Grace through faith, hope and love, or we are saved by Grace through a faith that works in love, but apparently it's a deal breaker when we go beyond the formulation "we are saved by faith alone." Given 1 Corinthians 13:2 and James 2:24, this puts Christians who do not hold to that formulation at pains when it comes to the issue of reaching agreement with our fellow Christians on this point, that we may, in accordance with Christ's prayer, all be one.


For now, we'll just have to work with what we have. Do you believe in the formulation, "we are saved by faith alone"? If so, what do you understand by the word "faith" in that statement?

[RnMomof7]

"Servant" implies work. "Work" is the first word in the verse. St. Paul puts it in the imperative. He mentions fear, an emotion meaningless if the salvation had been already assured. Why do you twist the scripture like that? The meaning is clear, we must work out our salvation every day. The next verse, about God driving the work is not there to negate the previous verse, but to explain that grace is necessary for all good work.

A servant is ALREADY the property of the master .

You want to isolate that scripture for all the others and make it mean what it does not.

It does not say work to be saved

Read it

Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out YOUR OWN salvation with fear and trembling.

HE WAS TALKING TO THE SAVED . THEY WERE ALREADY SAVED,

[Salvation]

Part I -- second part coming next week.

Thanks for posting this.

[Logophile]

HE WAS TALKING TO THE SAVED . THEY WERE ALREADY SAVED,

I don't want to argue with you, but I am curious. If they were already saved, why would it be necessary for them to work out their salvation with fear and trembling?

[Salvation]

You are correct here. She is wrong.

[annalex]

It does not say work to be saved

True, it doesn't. It says that since you had been saved, work it out unless you lose it. This is what the fear implies, loss of salvation.

THEY WERE ALREADY SAVED

The sacrifice of Christ is available to all, so all have been saved if they have faith and work daily to keep it. This is the plain reading of the verse.

There are plentiful references to necessity of work infused with grace, so I am not isolating this verse. It is well corroborated in the Gospel. I showed that in my #15.

[Quester]

However, if you look at those verses, you will notice that none of them say that we are saved by faith alone. You've listed the verses that you think say we are saved by faith alone, and they're right there in front of you. Look and see, none of them say we are saved by faith alone. As it turns out, nowhere in Bible does it say that we are saved by Faith alone.

I've always felt that this passage was good for showing the relationships between grace, faith, works, and salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So then ... we are saved wholly by God's grace ... through our own faith (which, like everything else we have ... is a gift from God).

In no part (are we saved) by our own works ... which prevents anyone (other than God) from boasting.

Therefore ... as saved individuals, ... we are the products of God's work ... created in Christ Jesus ... for the purpose of performing the works which God has already decided that we should do.

Paul must have got this question a lot.

[Quester]

I would be happy with a formulation that said we are saved by Grace through faith, hope and love, or we are saved by Grace through a faith that works in love, but apparently it's a deal breaker when we go beyond the formulation "we are saved by faith alone." Given 1 Corinthians 13:2 and James 2:24, this puts Christians who do not hold to that formulation at pains when it comes to the issue of reaching agreement with our fellow Christians on this point, that we may, in accordance with Christ's prayer, all be one.

For now, we'll just have to work with what we have. Do you believe in the formulation, "we are saved by faith alone"? If so, what do you understand by the word "faith" in that statement?

See post #54.

[ScubieNuc]

12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation. 13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will. Notice the emphasis

IT IS GOD THAT WORKETH IN YOU BOTH TO MAKE YOU WILL AND TO ACCOMPLISH ANY WORK .

God does not work in the unsaved.

Excellent post!! Very well said.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Paul must have got this question a lot.

LOL. Amen.

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,

since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith." -- Romans 3:28-30

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" -- Romans 5:1

His blood shed once for all His sheep, ordained by God for His glory from before the foundation of the world.

[InterestedQuestioner]

That's are good quotes, and a good explanation of your views. Paul is speaking about the Works of the Jewish Law, however, and that's important to keep in mind. I think we're having some miscommunication, so let's see if we can work around that. To begin with, correctly speaking, we are not saved by our Faith, right? We are saved by God, correct?

Where we agree with regards to salvation is that we are saved, not that we save ourselves. That is, God saves us, we don't have the power to do it ourselves. Both this life and the next are gifts from God, freely and graciously given. (I think the passive voice in "are saved" seems to be misread in many cases as a past tense, but the appropriate reading seems to be that we are the objects of God's saving Grace.)

Where we have room for discussion is in the role of the believer in the economy of Salvation. We believe that Christ died for our salvation, and yet, none of us understand this to mean that human beings will all automatically go to Heaven, regardless of their beliefs and actions. Rather, we believe that the individual too has a responsibility in the economy of Salvation, that is, we must accept Christ's gift, we must respond to God's call, we must Choose Life. How do we do this?

The Protestant Formulation is that our response is Faith alone. There is much that suggests this is a formulation with serious drawbacks. To begin, it's not Scriptural, and in fact, it flies in the face of Scripture. Secondly, we must read it apart from the witness of Scripture which tells us that we will not be saved without mercy, without love, without forgiveness of others, and to be blunt, without works. How do you resolve this conflict? That is one of the questions that is being asked here. The author of the article asserts that "good" Protestants do so by defining faith in such a way as to include hope and love. He suggests that many Protestants, however, make an honest mistake of not defining Faith in this way, but rather see it as an intellectual assent only, and he argues that such an understanding is dangerous.

It seems like it would be a better formulation to say that we are saved by grace through faith and love, or through a faith that works in love. The appropriate response on the part of the creature to the Love and Mercy of God is not a mere belief in God, but rather Love of God, gratitude for his works, and Love of our fellow human beings, who are created in the image and likeness of God, and whom are also the objects of God's Love. Perhaps you understand these terms to be implied in the formula, "salvation by faith alone"?

From a Catholic understanding, God does not compel those who do not love Him to spend eternity in his presence. We've seen Matthew 25: 31-46, the judegement scene described by Christ as a separation of the Sheep and the Goats. Notice that God's command to those who did not show mercy to the suffering is: "Depart from Me." I understand this to mean that hell is a separation from God, and it is the choice made by those who do not love God, in this case through Love of fellow human beings. Notice that elsewhere in Scripture, Heaven is described as a place prepared for those who love the Lord, and Scripture repeatedly tells us that God is gracious to those who love Him and keep his commandments. Simple belief is not enough, rather we must Love God and our fellow man. Notice in the Judgement scene described in Matthew, that everyone calls God, "Lord," and yet it is on the basis of whether they have shown compassion to the suffering or not that they are either go to God or are dismissed from Him.

Do you understand compassion, mercy, and forgiveness to be implied in the term, "fatih alone"? If so, then we probably have little disagreement, although I might point out that such an understanding doesn't follow from the statement, "saved by faith alone", and there appear to be many who understand these things to not be part of that formulation.

"Blessed is a man who endures trials, because when he passes the test he will receive the crown of life that He has promised to those who love Him.--James 1:12

[ScubieNuc]

Actually, the Bible doesn't say we're saved by faith alone,

Why do you refuse to see the verses dealing with salvation say nothing about faith PLUS works, or the church, or something else? I see on this thread and the previous one you have NO Bible verses that say that salvation is through faith and works.

it says we're not saved by faith alone.

You have continuously brought up James 2:24, and here and the previous thread, explanations were given. Explantions like: Paul is talking to the saved, the context of the whole chapter, the word in the verse is justified (not saved as you indicate)which means to demonstrate,etc., but your response is the same "salvation through faith ALONE is not in the Bible."

The reference here is correct, Luther did indeed add his teaching to the Bible when he translated it.

This is an interesting topic. One which deserves more then a brief summary, but here it is in a nut shell...I, and most others I see here, are not basing our belief on the writtings of a mortal man named Luther, but on the teachings of Jesus in the Bible.

He also effectively removed the part of the Bible that says we are saved not by faith alone. To be correct, "salvation by faith alone" is what men say, saved "not by faith alone is what God's word says.

This discussion also deals with what is your Bible based on. The 1611 King James Bible is based on over 3000 Greek manuscripts that colaborate each other,not the writtings of Luther. From what I have been able to find out so far, the Catholic Bible is based on 3 manuscripts that are full of omissions and errors. So when you and I disagree on the meaning of a word or a verses origin, our sources are different.

[RnMomof7]

I don't want to argue with you, but I am curious. If they were already saved, why would it be necessary for them to work out their salvation with fear and trembling?>

All the letters were written to the SAVED ( believers) There were letters of doctrine and/or instruction on how to live out your Christian life.

Read the people that Paul addressed it to

Phil1:1To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and servants:

1:12 Now I desire to have you know, brothers, that the things which happened to me have turned out rather to the progress of the Good News;

It was written as an instruction on how to live to be seen by the world. Notice the opening of that passage ... it is to THE BELOVED (the saved)

2:12 So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 2:13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

He then gives examples on how to do that and WHY

2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputes, 2:15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you are seen as lights in the world, 2:16 holding up the word of life; that I may have something to boast in the day of Christ, that I didn’t run in vain nor labor in vain.

We all work out our salvation as we live it out . NO WHERE does Paul say that they are to do this to be saved, but like the letter from James it is a call to live your life so the unsaved can see your faith at work.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.