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The Creed - latest revisions proposed by ICEL
WITL ^ | September 27, 2005 | Rocco Palmo

Posted on 09/27/2005 9:39:02 AM PDT by NYer

Is This What You Believe?

I came across a copy of the latest revisions proposed by ICEL -- here's where the Creed is at....
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only-begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages,
God from God, light from light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father:
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
(At the following words, up to and including and became man, all bow.)
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate
of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.

Crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried.
And rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead.
His kingdom will have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life:
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
with the Father and the Son
is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

And in one holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins,
I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Amen Amen and Amen?


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; Orthodox Christian; Prayer; Worship
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For purposes of comparison, from New Advent

* * * * *

THE OLD ROMAN CREED
AS QUOTED BY TERTULLIAN (c. 200)

De Virg. Vel., 1 Adv. Prax., 2 De Praecept., 13 and 26
(1) Believing in one God Almighty, maker of the world, (1) We believe one only God, (1) I believe in one God, maker of the world,
(2) and His Son, Jesus Christ, (2) and the son of God Jesus Christ, (2) the Word, called His Son, Jesus Christ,
(3) born of the Virgin Mary, (3) born of the Virgin, (3) by the Spirit and power of God the Father made flesh in Mary's womb, and born of her
(4) crucified under Pontius Pilate, (4) Him suffered died, and buried, (4) fastened to a cross.
(5) on the third day brought to life from the dead, (5) brought back to life, (5) He rose the third day,
(6) received in heaven, (6) taken again into heaven, (6) was caught up into heaven,
(7) sitting now at the right hand of the Father, (7) sits at the right hand of the Father, (7) set at the right hand of the Father,
(8) will come to judge the living and the dead (8) will come to judge the living and the dead (8) will come with glory to take the good into life eternal, and condemn the wicked to perpetual fire,
(9) who has sent from the Father the Holy Ghost. (9) sent the vicarious power of His Holy Spirit,
(10) to govern believers (In this passage articles 9 and 10 precede 8)
(12) through resurrection of the flesh. (12) restoration of the flesh.

1 posted on 09/27/2005 9:39:02 AM PDT by NYer
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To: american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...
Extensive history of The Nicene Creed at this link:

Apostles' Creed

2 posted on 09/27/2005 9:41:10 AM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer

c. 200? That's about 125 years BEFORE the Nicene Creed was written.


3 posted on 09/27/2005 9:49:30 AM PDT by dangus
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To: NYer

I have some grammatical issues. Whether the words exist in the Latin or not, there are some grammatically necessary additions. For instance, "And in the Holy Spirit... who proceeds from the Father and the Son, and with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets"

should read,

"And in the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, AND WHO with the Father and Son is adored and glorified, AND WHO has spoken through the prophets."


4 posted on 09/27/2005 9:53:28 AM PDT by dangus
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To: NYer

I'm trying to understand why the changes were needed?!??!?!?!

18 months since I 1st started attending Mass in my life and I have yet to get the Creed memorized--now they go and change it?


5 posted on 09/27/2005 9:53:47 AM PDT by TheStickman
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To: dangus

OK... I've re-evaluated it. Maybe not absolutely grammatically necessary, but much easier to read.


6 posted on 09/27/2005 9:54:45 AM PDT by dangus
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To: TheStickman

Next thing you know, they'll be making you memorize extra rosary decades. ;^)


7 posted on 09/27/2005 9:55:22 AM PDT by dangus
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To: TheStickman
I'm trying to understand why the changes were needed?!??!?!?!

Since these "new changes" make the creed almost exactly the same as the English translation in my 1962 missal, I'm trying to understand why they ever instituted to the form you memorized.

8 posted on 09/27/2005 10:00:55 AM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: murphE

The changes from the 1962 Missal were simply to put the ICEL stamp on the Creed and get the use of "we" in there (yes, I know the difference between the Nicene and other Creeds, but the fact remains that it was CREDO in Latin). The ultimate objective of the ICEL was probably that of making significant changes to the text; I recall reading its next objective was going to be a "gender neutral" version, although I don't know how true this was.

ICEL "translations" of anything were noted for being agenda-heavy paraphrases. They were much more "creative" than any other of the European language translations, for example. And the ICEL only got reined in very recently.


9 posted on 09/27/2005 10:08:56 AM PDT by livius
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To: NYer; murphE
Minority report for the old English version:

I believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, And of all things visible and invisible: And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God; Begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of very God; Begotten, not made; Being of one substance with the Father; By whom all things were made: Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, And was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, And was made man: And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried: And the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures: And ascended into heaven, And sitteth on the right hand of the Father: And he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, The Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; Who spake by the Prophets: And I believe one Catholic and Apostolic Church: I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins: And I look for the Resurrection of the dead: And the Life of the world to come.

Amen.

10 posted on 09/27/2005 10:12:01 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: TheStickman

Calm down ... they are trying to restore it. The Creed is a personal statement - "I believe", not "We believe", right. This is good news.


11 posted on 09/27/2005 10:26:16 AM PDT by NYer
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To: TheStickman
I'm trying to understand why the changes were needed?!??!?!?!

The whole Mass is in the process of being retranslated, because the current English translation (which, with minor alterations, dates back to 1970, meaning that I've been using it for 34 years) is, well, awful.

If you want to get an idea of how awful, subscribe to The Wanderer and read the column "What Does the Prayer Really Say" by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf, where he analyzes and rigorously translates the actual Latin text -- and then compares it to the icky official translation.

18 months since I 1st started attending Mass in my life and I have yet to get the Creed memorized--now they go and change it?

The Nicene Creed (really the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed) was originally written in Greek. I don't know the Greek, but I do know the Latin, and I can tell you that this English translation is a much more careful rendering of what the Latin text actually says than is the current official English version.

12 posted on 09/27/2005 10:44:55 AM PDT by Campion (Truth is not determined by a majority vote -- Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: AnAmericanMother

That is the version the LCMS uses, and I always say it that way.

My wife and my Catholic mother in law always look at me funny when I do.


13 posted on 09/27/2005 11:01:31 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: TheStickman
18 months since I 1st started attending Mass in my life and I have yet to get the Creed memorized--now they go and change it?

You know that cross you're supposed to carry every day? No one mentioned the irritating splinters, did they?

Personally, I like this phrase from the Catechism: 170 We do not believe in formulas, but in those realities they express...

14 posted on 09/27/2005 11:03:49 AM PDT by siunevada
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To: NYer
For us men and for our salvation

I'm so glad they kept "for us men" and did not kowtow to the feminist inclusive language crowd. The Latin original is clearly gender-neutral anyway, in a way that can't be perfectly rendered into non-ugly English. Dropping "men" means "homines" is left untranslated, while translating it "humans" or "human beings" sounds ugly and clinical ("Who for us hominids?" :-0)

15 posted on 09/27/2005 11:18:02 AM PDT by Campion (Truth is not determined by a majority vote -- Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: Campion; TheStickman; All
If you want to get an idea of how awful, subscribe to The Wanderer and read the column "What Does the Prayer Really Say" by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf, where he analyzes and rigorously translates the actual Latin text -- and then compares it to the icky official translation.

Excellent column!!!

Or you can visit his web forum, What Does The Prayer Really Say

16 posted on 09/27/2005 12:17:51 PM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer

This is very similar to the translation I heard when travelling in England earlier this year. (Yes, I was assisting at Mass in a Roman Catholic Church.) The only real difference is the use of "visible and invisible" in this translation vs. "seen and unseen" in current use in England.


17 posted on 09/27/2005 12:21:33 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: NYer

The 3 columns you've added are irrelevant. They are the predecessors of the Apostles' Creed (the Old Roman Symbol) and have nothing to do with the Nicene-Constantinopolitan creed that the ICEL translation renders into English. These three columns only confuse matters.


18 posted on 09/27/2005 1:04:30 PM PDT by Dionysiusdecordealcis
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To: dangus

YOu are right that the relative pronoun "who" should be there in the second and third clauses. But you don't need the "and" in those two cases. It's certainly not present in the Latin but the "who" is present in the Latin and makes for better syntax in English.


19 posted on 09/27/2005 1:05:38 PM PDT by Dionysiusdecordealcis
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To: Campion

Bump for later.


20 posted on 09/27/2005 2:07:48 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: livius

Heavy handed clericalism, and like that of Archbishop Cranmer, with a theological agenda at variance with tradition.


21 posted on 09/27/2005 2:32:35 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: NYer
This appears much closer to the version the Byzantine Rite uses for English.

I like it much better since many of the words and phrases are better translations.

"Visible and invisible" as opposed to "seen and unseen".
"Consubstantial" as opposed to "one in being".
"Incarnate of the Virgin Mary" as opposed to "born".
"Adored and glorified" as opposed to "worshiped and glorified".
"the Only-begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages," is much better than it's current counterpart.

And, of coarse, use of the first person singular as opposed to plural.

Good news in indicating that the past horrible translations of ICEL are not only coming to an end, but are being reversed. The heterodox cannot be happy about that...

22 posted on 09/27/2005 2:53:47 PM PDT by TotusTuus
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To: NYer

What is ICEL?

And don't you have a better source than somebody's blog?


23 posted on 09/27/2005 3:03:15 PM PDT by iowamark
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To: NYer

Much better. Against the Latin "Credo", "we believe" grated. Credo means "I believe" not we.

And some of the other language makes more sense.


24 posted on 09/27/2005 3:03:25 PM PDT by Desdemona (Music Librarian and provider of cucumber sandwiches, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary. Hats required.)
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To: TheStickman
18 months since I 1st started attending Mass in my life and I have yet to get the Creed memorized--now they go and change it?

Don't worry. There are people who have been attending Mass for decades who don't have it memorized. And when the ICEL is approved, we'll all be in the same boat.

25 posted on 09/27/2005 3:06:12 PM PDT by Desdemona (Music Librarian and provider of cucumber sandwiches, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary. Hats required.)
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To: iowamark
What is ICEL?

International Commission of English in the Liturgy

26 posted on 09/27/2005 3:09:36 PM PDT by conservonator (Pray for those suffering)
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To: NYer

Wow, NYer, thanks for this thread. I do prefer more traditional translations. That said, it's also nice to have a poetic ear and definitely NO politically correct "inclusive" language. I prefer Holy Spirit to Holy Ghost, I also prefer Worshipped to Adored.


27 posted on 09/27/2005 3:10:00 PM PDT by TradicalRC (Benedicamus Domino.)
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To: Campion

"The Nicene Creed (really the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed) was originally written in Greek. I don't know the Greek, but I do know the Latin, and I can tell you that this English translation is a much more careful rendering of what the Latin text actually says than is the current official English version."

Its closer to the Greek too...except for the filioque innovation which, of course is not in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed at all.


28 posted on 09/27/2005 3:43:01 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Campion

"The Nicene Creed (really the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed) was originally written in Greek. I don't know the Greek, but I do know the Latin, and I can tell you that this English translation is a much more careful rendering of what the Latin text actually says than is the current official English version."

Its closer to the Greek too...except for the filioque innovation which, of course is not in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed at all. In a couple of other areas its a bit off too, for example, "consubstantial with the Father for omoosion to Patri really means more like "one in essence with the Father". Similarly, "one baptism for the forgiveness of sins" is probably fine, but the Greek word "afeseen" might be better translated "remission", but that's probably more a matter of taste. Otherwise, this is a good trnslation.


29 posted on 09/27/2005 3:51:36 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Campion

When "pro multis" is again translated "for the many" and when the priest finally says "Mysterium Fidei!--The Mystery of Faith!" without having US responding "Christ has died, etc.", the end is near.

Frank


30 posted on 09/27/2005 4:31:46 PM PDT by Frank Sheed ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." ~GK Chesterton.)
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To: NYer

I should point out the original Greek is plural, wheras the Latin of the Roman rite in the creed is singular. The Mozarabic translation of the creed says Credimus(plural) rather than the singular (credo).

Also, if you ask me, the filioque has to go.


31 posted on 09/27/2005 4:49:01 PM PDT by JohnRoss
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To: JohnRoss

"I should point out the original Greek is plural, wheras the Latin of the Roman rite in the creed is singular. The Mozarabic translation of the creed says Credimus(plural) rather than the singular (credo)."

The original proclamation of the Creed had as its opening word "Pistevomen", We Believe, and referred to the Holy Fathers who were doing the proclaiming. In Eastern Rite Liturgies, it has always been, so far as I know, "Pistevo", I Believe.


32 posted on 09/27/2005 5:58:55 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: JohnRoss; sandyeggo
The Mozarabic translation of the creed says Credimus(plural) rather than the singular (credo).

Thank you for this piece of history!!! Only this evening I mentioned these proposed changes to my Maronite pastor. He has a degree in Biblical Linguistics and said the same thing. The first christians were formed into communities and the original texts used the word "we" because "we are a community of faith; hence we believe".

33 posted on 09/27/2005 6:57:44 PM PDT by NYer
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To: TotusTuus
And, of coarse, use of the first person singular as opposed to plural.

See posts 31, 32, and 33.

34 posted on 09/27/2005 7:00:00 PM PDT by NYer
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To: TotusTuus

Let us not forget that the Son is certainly NOT "one in being with the Father."

And let us remember that the "acclamation" Christ has died, etc. is NOT an acclamation at all and is NOT found in the Latin Missal. It was an American experiment after the council that the US bishops asked nicely to keep. Sounds silly, too, in my opinion.


35 posted on 09/27/2005 7:38:16 PM PDT by sanormal
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To: JohnRoss
Also, if you ask me, the filioque has to go.

I'm going to go "old school" on you. ;-) (From the "Roman" Catechism, the Catechism of the Council of Trent)

"Who Proceedeth from the Father and the Son"

With regard to the words immediately succeeding: who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, the faithful are to be taught that the Holy Ghost proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son, as from one principle. This truth is proposed for our belief by the Creed of the Church, from which no Christian may depart, and is confirmed by the authority of the Sacred Scriptures and of Councils.

Christ the Lord, speaking of the Holy Ghost, says: He shall glorify me, because he shall receive of mine. We also find that the Holy Ghost is sometimes called in Scripture the Spirit of Christ, sometimes, the Spirit of the Father; that He is one time said to be sent by the Father, another time, by the Son, -- all of which clearly signifies that He proceeds alike from the Father and the Son. He, says St. Paul, who has not the Spirit of Christ belongs not to him. In his Epistle to the Galatians he also calls the Holy Ghost the Spirit of Christ: God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father. In the Gospel of St. Matthew, He is called the Spirit of the Father: It is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.

Our Lord said, at His Last Supper: When the Paraclete cometh whom I will send you, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me. On another occasion, that the Holy Ghost will be sent by the Father, He declares in these words: whom the Father will send in my name. Understanding these words to denote the procession of the Holy Ghost, we come to the inevitable conclusion that He proceeds from both Father and Son.

The above are the truths that should be taught with regard to the Person of the Holy Ghost.

36 posted on 09/27/2005 7:42:44 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (Blessed Pius IX, pray for us!)
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Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: Kolokotronis
In a couple of other areas its a bit off too, for example, "consubstantial with the Father for omoosion to Patri really means more like "one in essence with the Father".

This is a slavish translation of the Latin, which is "consubstantialem Patri". "Consubstantialem" comes from "substantia," essence or substance; "consubstantialem Patri" means, of course, "of one essence (or like essence) with the Father".

39 posted on 09/27/2005 8:45:28 PM PDT by Campion (Truth is not determined by a majority vote -- Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: livius

The first changes ALSO had the benefit of giving ICEL copyright-revenues--a LOT of revenues.


40 posted on 09/28/2005 4:55:10 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: livius

"the fact remains that it was CREDO in Latin" -- let me ask you this, then. It IS credo, is it not? When did 'WE believe' start? Isn't it part of the Vat II shenanigans? Like holding hands at the Our Father? It smells like that ....


41 posted on 09/28/2005 6:24:57 AM PDT by bboop (Facts are your friend.)
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To: dangus
should read, "And in the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, AND WHO with the Father and Son is adored and glorified, AND WHO has spoken through the prophets."

Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum, et vivificantem, qui ex Patre Filioque procedit, qui cum Patre et Filio, simul adoratur, et conglorifcatur, qui locutus est per Prophetas.

There are no "et's" before the "qui's".

42 posted on 09/28/2005 9:45:00 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Kolokotronis
"consubstantial with the Father for omoosion to Patri really means more like "one in essence with the Father".

The Latin translation of the Greek has always been "consubstantialem Patri", not "conessentialem Patri".

43 posted on 09/28/2005 9:52:36 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: ninenot
The first changes ALSO had the benefit of giving ICEL copyright-revenues

That's a very good point, and I think few people are aware of this. OCP and other printers/publishers are also making a fortune off of these things.

44 posted on 09/28/2005 10:23:04 AM PDT by livius
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To: Hermann the Cherusker

"The Latin translation of the Greek has always been "consubstantialem Patri""

I didn't say it wasn't, H.

" not "conessentialem Patri".

I didn't know "conessentialem" was a word. In any case, when I was a classics major, "substantia" meant "essence"; generally substance is "materia".


45 posted on 09/28/2005 10:24:07 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: bboop

In the original Greek, the plural form was used. However, that was not used for liturgical purposes (to my knowledge) and the singular form was used in Greek and also in Latin. The Nicene Creed was initially "designed" as a statement to be made jointly by the orthodox bishops as a sort of pledge of orthodoxy. When it entered liturgical use, it seems to have shifted to the singular, like the Apostles' Creed.

Using "We" in the modern English translation was, as you note, ideologically motivated. One of the main goals of VatII (well, at least of the "spirit of VatII") was to downplay the individual aspect of Christianity and make it a sort of corporate thing where we all hold hands in that big ol collective and dance around the dinner table with Sister Snowflake.

One of the reasons that we have so many awful problems in the Church now, btw, is the downplaying of the individual and his responsibility and his relationship with the Lord. Making it all a collective endeavor took away anybody's individual responsibility for sin, prayer, their personal spiritual lives, etc. It was all institutional. And witness the results of 4 decades of this attitude.


46 posted on 09/28/2005 10:30:45 AM PDT by livius
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To: Campion

A heads up.

I read today (on the Papabile blog, I think), a comment from someone who said that Rocco's version of these translations was already passe and that those who have modified them are holding them "in pectore." He seemed to know what the issues were and I took this as genuine. One comment was that "pro multis" may not appear as it is being bandied about and may, indeed, be finalized as "for many." In other words, I am not putting too much stead in these translations. I'm sure this is being discussed even now and is being kept top secret. The result will be a more faithful rendering of the Latin. The other comment was that the English translation was the benchmark for all other languages. Apparently, the version rendered will have wide impact and the Committee knows this. I think we have a right to be hopeful.

Cheers,
F


47 posted on 09/28/2005 6:49:20 PM PDT by Frank Sheed ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." ~GK Chesterton.)
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To: NYer

Call me when they remove the filioque.
Anathema was pronounced on ANYONE who changed the creed.


48 posted on 09/28/2005 6:54:50 PM PDT by TexConfederate1861
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To: TexConfederate1861
Anathema was pronounced on ANYONE who changed the creed.

Yes, on anyone who changed the Creed composed of the Fathers at Nicaea. The Orthodox don't use the Nicene Creed either, but the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed. You're just as "anathema" as we are.

49 posted on 09/29/2005 1:27:07 PM PDT by gbcdoj (Let us ask the Lord with tears, that according to his will so he would shew his mercy to us Jud 8:17)
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To: gbcdoj

Since a VALID Church Council made the change, that is a different story. Latins can't say the same.

Good Try, NO CIGAR.


50 posted on 09/29/2005 2:31:19 PM PDT by TexConfederate1861
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