The Creed - latest revisions proposed by ICEL

WITL ^ | September 27, 2005 | Rocco Palmo

[NYer]

Is This What You Believe?

I came across a copy of the latest revisions proposed by ICEL -- here's where the Creed is at....

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only-begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages,
God from God, light from light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father:
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
(At the following words, up to and including and became man, all bow.)
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate
of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.

Crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried.
And rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead.
His kingdom will have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life:
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
with the Father and the Son
is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

And in one holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins,
I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Amen Amen and Amen?

[bboop]

"the fact remains that it was CREDO in Latin" -- let me ask you this, then. It IS credo, is it not? When did 'WE believe' start? Isn't it part of the Vat II shenanigans? Like holding hands at the Our Father? It smells like that ....

[Hermann the Cherusker]

should read, "And in the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, AND WHO with the Father and Son is adored and glorified, AND WHO has spoken through the prophets."

Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum, et vivificantem, qui ex Patre Filioque procedit, qui cum Patre et Filio, simul adoratur, et conglorifcatur, qui locutus est per Prophetas.

There are no "et's" before the "qui's".

[Hermann the Cherusker]

"consubstantial with the Father for omoosion to Patri really means more like "one in essence with the Father".

The Latin translation of the Greek has always been "consubstantialem Patri", not "conessentialem Patri".

[livius]

The first changes ALSO had the benefit of giving ICEL copyright-revenues

That's a very good point, and I think few people are aware of this. OCP and other printers/publishers are also making a fortune off of these things.

[Kolokotronis]

"The Latin translation of the Greek has always been "consubstantialem Patri""

I didn't say it wasn't, H.

" not "conessentialem Patri".

I didn't know "conessentialem" was a word. In any case, when I was a classics major, "substantia" meant "essence"; generally substance is "materia".

[livius]

In the original Greek, the plural form was used. However, that was not used for liturgical purposes (to my knowledge) and the singular form was used in Greek and also in Latin. The Nicene Creed was initially "designed" as a statement to be made jointly by the orthodox bishops as a sort of pledge of orthodoxy. When it entered liturgical use, it seems to have shifted to the singular, like the Apostles' Creed.

Using "We" in the modern English translation was, as you note, ideologically motivated. One of the main goals of VatII (well, at least of the "spirit of VatII") was to downplay the individual aspect of Christianity and make it a sort of corporate thing where we all hold hands in that big ol collective and dance around the dinner table with Sister Snowflake.

One of the reasons that we have so many awful problems in the Church now, btw, is the downplaying of the individual and his responsibility and his relationship with the Lord. Making it all a collective endeavor took away anybody's individual responsibility for sin, prayer, their personal spiritual lives, etc. It was all institutional. And witness the results of 4 decades of this attitude.

[Frank Sheed]

A heads up.

I read today (on the Papabile blog, I think), a comment from someone who said that Rocco's version of these translations was already passe and that those who have modified them are holding them "in pectore." He seemed to know what the issues were and I took this as genuine. One comment was that "pro multis" may not appear as it is being bandied about and may, indeed, be finalized as "for many." In other words, I am not putting too much stead in these translations. I'm sure this is being discussed even now and is being kept top secret. The result will be a more faithful rendering of the Latin. The other comment was that the English translation was the benchmark for all other languages. Apparently, the version rendered will have wide impact and the Committee knows this. I think we have a right to be hopeful.

Cheers,
F

[TexConfederate1861]

Call me when they remove the filioque.
Anathema was pronounced on ANYONE who changed the creed.

[gbcdoj]

Anathema was pronounced on ANYONE who changed the creed.

Yes, on anyone who changed the Creed composed of the Fathers at Nicaea. The Orthodox don't use the Nicene Creed either, but the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed. You're just as "anathema" as we are.

[TexConfederate1861]

Since a VALID Church Council made the change, that is a different story. Latins can't say the same.

Good Try, NO CIGAR.

[bboop]

What about — “From thence He will come to judge the quick and the dead.” Which might be the Apostle’s Creed, which I learned as a child. If I do not READ the Creed, word for word, I will say this. Oh, and ‘He descended into Hell’ too.

Brains are so hard to train.

[NYer]

Just curious - why are you posting to a thread from 2 years ago? Did it pop up on a search or has there been some recent development? Thanks