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Is Libertarian Capitalism compatible with Christianity?
The Angelus (Society of St. Pius X) ^ | May 2005 | Dr. Peter Chojnowski

Posted on 09/30/2005 6:45:41 PM PDT by JohnRoss

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To: JohnRoss
>This goes right over your head. Survival of the fittest, aye.

Actually.... no

It's not over my head.

It's simply a very poorly written, poorly thought-out attempt to impose a limited-acceptance, mono-dogmatic, exceptionally narrow religious doctrine on contemporary global economics.

It's sort of like expecting the final score of the 1956 World Cup Soccer quarter-finals to determine the closing price of West Texas benchmark crude oil on February 23, 2009.

Even Sophomores at Notre Dame know that excessive footnotes do not logic make.

21 posted on 10/01/2005 12:20:11 PM PDT by MindBender26 (Having my own CAR-15 in RVN meant never having to say I was sorry......)
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To: Larry Lucido
>Pareto Optimality

>Survival of the best parrot?

No, Getting the best eyeglasses or contact lenses for a non-blood relative with the legal authority to act in the place of one's mother or father.

Very much like "In loco parentas." Ie "My parents are crazy (from Spanish "loco")"
22 posted on 10/01/2005 12:24:55 PM PDT by MindBender26 (Having my own CAR-15 in RVN meant never having to say I was sorry......)
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To: bornacatholic

Socialism results in paragraph shortages. ;-)


23 posted on 10/01/2005 12:36:51 PM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: MindBender26

I tried to file a court case on behalf of a train engine. Two guesses what legal theory I used.


24 posted on 10/01/2005 12:38:38 PM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: Leapfrog

Tomorrow morning. Meet you there...


25 posted on 10/01/2005 12:38:46 PM PDT by Dead Corpse (Anyone who needs to be persuaded to be free, doesn't deserve to be. -El Neil)
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To: A. Pole

Bump


26 posted on 10/01/2005 12:41:20 PM PDT by Nowhere Man (Lutheran, Conservative, Neo-Victorian/Edwardian, Michael Savage in '08! - Any Questions?)
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To: Larry Lucido

yeah, like my post had anything to do with socialism...


27 posted on 10/01/2005 12:58:14 PM PDT by bornacatholic
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To: bornacatholic

Come on, smile. I'm sure the passage was insightful. Here, let me make it readable.

The model of an economy which both neoclassical and Austrian economics present, and the economic policies which Austrian economists usually champion, are not the obvious conclusions of economic reasoning as they would have us believe.

For economic activity always takes place within a legal, social and technological framework, and the structure of that framework to a great degree conditions and determines the shape which economic activity takes in any particular society.

There was no economic reason, for example, why the guilds of the Middle Ages, which controlled the urban economies of Europe and severely limited competition among craftsmen, need have come to an end, and the economy which resulted from the demise of the guilds was largely the creation of a changed intellectual climate, not the result of so-called economic laws.

Nor are limited liability corporations, which currently dominate our economy and which were created only in the nineteenth century due to emerging state general incorporation laws, the inevitable products of economic forces, but rather were brought into being by the free acts of legislatures. Market forces always work within a certain framework, and economic outcomes depend more on how these frameworks are structured than on the market forces alone.

Thus within broad limits human beings have the ability to structure the way in which they conduct economic activity, and the notion that there is only one way which is sanctioned by so-called economic laws is false. Human beings create their legal and social institutions and can alter them. There is no reason why these institutions cannot be designed or reformed in such a way so as to facilitate the application of Catholic social teaching.

(A concrete instance of how market forces always work within an institutional framework is the story of the Nova Scotia fishermen from the 1930s. "Their catch of fish and lobsters was handled by local dealers who in many cases kept the fishermen in a state of peonage. While Maine fishermen were getting about fifteen cents a pound for lobsters, the Nova Scotian fishermen were receiving as little as two cents a pound.

All other prices were scaled down in the same ratio. For everything they bought, however, from their scanty food purchases to nets and lines, they paid top prices, with the result that they were invariably bowed down with a load of debts. Appalling poverty, illiteracy, poor health and the worst possible housing conditions existed throughout this section." In order to better their condition, priests from St. Francis College helped the fishermen organize cooperatives.

By means of marketing cooperatives they were able to bypass the local middlemen and deal directly with wholesalers in large cities. In their first shipment of lobsters to Boston they received fifteen cents per pound net. The distribution of income before the establishment of the cooperatives was not the result of the operation of economic laws, but rather of the legal and social institutions within which these economic forces operated. These institutions were changed and a new set of institutions was created within which market forces could operate.

This is an illustration of the freedom men have to change the framework and thus change the way economic forces operate to bring about a more just distribution of income.

See Bertram B. Fowler, The Co-operative Challenge (Boston : Little, Brown, 1947) pp. 128-29.)


28 posted on 10/01/2005 1:05:33 PM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: Larry Lucido

Good post.

I have always thought that "libertarian capitalism" wasn't any kind of theory at all, but merely a history of how people will eventually behave when cultural and religious norms are eliminated.


29 posted on 10/01/2005 1:15:19 PM PDT by SeriousSassy (I know manure when I step in it!)
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To: SeriousSassy; bornacatholic

Thanks, but it's bornacatholic's cite. The author makes good observations but the observations, IMO, better support a laissez-faire prescription than his implied regulatory prescriptions. The good fathers who helped the lobster fisherman helped make the free market work by organizing the fishermen into a voluntary association with bargaining power.


30 posted on 10/01/2005 1:21:18 PM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: Conservative til I die
I say no, pure, free-market, libertarian style capitalism is not compatible with Christianity.

Ping for later reading (both the article and the responses)

31 posted on 10/01/2005 1:24:29 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Psalm 73)
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To: Conservative til I die
The Catholic Church at least, teaches that political and economic systems are nearly a means to an end. The end being God of course. Pure capitalism, which teaches that economic progress and wealth are the ultimate goods totally leaves out God. Someone who is only middle class or poor but follows god's law and lives a life of charity and service to others, and devotion to God is much better off.

As it regards day to day secular life, capitalism is better than socialism or communism, but capitalism still needs some controls put on it so that people are not turned into mere economic units (not that different from how people are viewed in communist societies) that are less important than money.


I've come to that conclusion myself, although capitalism is the better than pure socialism or communism, it isn't perfect and for the sake of society, there are need for some controls. I think pure capitalism ignores human nature as much as pure communism does. Communism stifles innovation be denying the resources to do so unless you're with the party elite. With capitalism, at least you have innovation but if you step on the toes of the "big boys," like communism, they will be down on you like a ton of bricks. I think a huge problem is that communists take their ideology like religion, but instead of worship and devoition to God, they replace God with the State. With pure capitalism, they replace God with money, i.e., some see it like a religion. If you read Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged," you see it in there. For the most part, like Michael Savage said one night where the free market can only exist in textbooks, you have so many factors out there that put their thumbs on the scale, sort of like when you try to tilt a pinball machine. Tilt it too much, the machine goes dead. So I do agree with you that pure capitalism and pure communism are two sides of the same coin where the individual is seen nothing more than just a cog.

I was listening to Glenn Beck one day and he made a point to where we are too much of a consumer society to where we need to have to now and go into debt. I think we are seeing the consumer economy taking so much that we are tossing God, responsibility and accountibilty aside.

Although I'm a Lutheran, I do admire the Catholic Church and their teachings on many things, to keep it subject related, to how the economy should be. I like to read Pope Leo XIII Rerum Novarum (sp?) on the rights and duties of both capital and labr tht he wrote about in the 1890's
32 posted on 10/01/2005 1:25:22 PM PDT by Nowhere Man (Lutheran, Conservative, Neo-Victorian/Edwardian, Michael Savage in '08! - Any Questions?)
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To: Larry Lucido

I agree. Regulatory efforts without cultural change are simply steps toward totalitarianism.


33 posted on 10/01/2005 1:27:36 PM PDT by SeriousSassy (I know manure when I step in it!)
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To: Larry Lucido

"In Hoc Transit?"

i.e. Someone pawned the subway car?


34 posted on 10/01/2005 2:18:38 PM PDT by MindBender26 (Having my own CAR-15 in RVN meant never having to say I was sorry......)
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To: SeriousSassy

>I agree. Regulatory efforts without cultural change are simply steps toward totalitarianism.

For sake of argument.....

Did not Brown v. Board of Education lead to a climate where J.C Watts and Colin Powell could achieve their full potential as Americans?


35 posted on 10/01/2005 2:22:36 PM PDT by MindBender26 (Having my own CAR-15 in RVN meant never having to say I was sorry......)
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To: MindBender26

I was thinking "in loco motive." But that would work, too.


36 posted on 10/01/2005 2:33:00 PM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: Willie Green; Wolfie; ex-snook; Jhoffa_; FITZ; arete; FreedomPoster; Red Jones; Pyro7480; ...
Only those with the most animalistic conception of man would think that the ability to buy and sell things is the pivot around which should turn an individual life, a political ideology, or the efforts of the State. That "man does not live by bread alone" is not only a religious truth, but is also a bit of wisdom testified to by universal human experience.

Bump!

37 posted on 10/01/2005 3:12:53 PM PDT by A. Pole (Confucius:A noble man strives as much to learn what is right as lesser man to discover what will pay)
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To: MindBender26

Well, no, not that I can see. Are you sure you know what Brown decided?


38 posted on 10/01/2005 3:46:05 PM PDT by SeriousSassy (I know manure when I step in it!)
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To: Larry Lucido
I selected out representational paragraphs of Mr. Storck's arguements against LF capitalism. As to you r"socialism" comment in response I still have no idea what you intended by that.

For the record Rerum Novarum the first modern encyclical re economcs, condemns socialism (I am doing this by memory) at least three times.

There is an old Christian axiom, the economy exists for man. Man does not exist for the economy.

Heinrich Pesch, S.J. is my hero, fwiw. Ethics and the national economy is Christian and rational

39 posted on 10/01/2005 7:35:12 PM PDT by bornacatholic
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To: SeriousSassy
USSC's Brown v. Board of Education was the tipping point for a movement that changed a very stupid nationally-practiced policy that said no matter how good, how just, how talented, how committed, how brave, how patriotic or simply how nice you are; if you are Black, you are committed to a second-class lifestyle in America.

Think about it. In many cases and places, de-facto segregation prevented returning Tuskegee Airmen from voting, access to decent medical care or, in many states, renting a plane so they could take the family flying on a nice Sunday afternoon.

Think about it. When some of our earliest troops in RVN rotated back to CONUS in the very early 60s, they weren't allowed to fly to their home towns on Delta Airlines.

Did Brown et al address all that? No. But it lit a fire in the belly of most Americans that was stronger than any legal decision or government action could ever be.

The book "Tipping Point" speaks to the issue of how you can use a tipping point to your advantage. There are many. Fax system have been around for almost 100 years. Why, all of a sudden did we all have to have one.

Why, all of a sudden, did little, unused Arpanet become what we communicate on today?

40 posted on 10/02/2005 4:48:53 AM PDT by MindBender26 (Having my own CAR-15 in RVN meant never having to say I was sorry......)
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