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POPE HIT THE MARK: AT ROOT OF CATHOLIC PROBLEMS IS LACK OF BIBLICAL SPIRITUALITY
SpiritDaily.com ^ | 10-05 | Spirit Daily

Posted on 10/05/2005 11:05:11 PM PDT by Salvation

POPE HIT THE MARK: AT ROOT OF CATHOLIC PROBLEMS IS LACK OF BIBLICAL SPIRITUALITY

He could not have hit it more squarely on the head. Pope Benedict XVI, toiling quietly, with little of the visibility enjoyed by his predecessor, nonetheless was giving hints that he is doing what he always has, what he is used to doing, what he did for a quarter of a century as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: working behind the scenes to hold the world's most important institution together, and he is starting where it must start, where it needs to start, where so many of the problems reside: with the Bible.

A few weeks ago, in a major pronouncement (albeit one underreported in by the Christian media), he said, "Assiduous reading of sacred Scripture accompanied by prayer makes that intimate dialogue possible in which, through reading, one hears God speaking, and through prayer, one responds with a confident opening of the heart. If this practice is promoted with efficacy, I am convinced that it will produce a new spiritual springtime in the Church" [our italics].

Above all, he was saying, we must remember Scripture.

Added the Pope, in speaking about Europe, "many Christian things occur, but there is also a great fatigue, and we are so concerned with structural questions that the zest and the joy of faith are missing."

As he prepared for Youth Day last August, Benedict XVI loudly rejected the idea of Christianity as a religion of rules and prohibitions and said he hoped to use his trip to spur "a wave of new faith" -- the type of faith that brings results, displays miracles, and springs forth from the Bible."

Let us add that the root of crisis in the Church is how little the Bible is heeded and how much worldliness has infiltrated. Too often, we compromise with society and its trends (its politics, its fashions) because we want to be "with it." We also confuse the word "religious" with "spiritual."

Religion is supposed to lead to spirituality. Frequently, it does not. It is the best way to obtain spirituality -- the narrowest gate -- but too often it leads only leads to religiosity (and a reverence for the codes of man instead of those of God). 

 Church and Word The remedy is the book it is all based on. The Church is in desperate need of biblical spirituality. Biblical spirituality is living a life modeled after those set forth as historical examples. It is feeling the grace that flows from the pages. We have plenty of theology. We have enough canon laws. What we need now is familiarity with that remarkable book and the knowing that it is of true supernatural origin.

Reading the Bible on a regular basis allows us to feel the actual move of the Holy Spirit -- to reach God through our hearts instead of through our self-important thoughts.

The Pope's words mimic those of saints like Therese the Little Flower -- who once said that "above all it's the Gospels that occupy my mind when I'm at prayer; my poor soul has so many needs, and yet this is the one thing needful. I'm always finding fresh lights there, hidden and enthralling meanings."

What happened at our seminaries? The Bible was pushed away as ancient literature (and even mythology) and Catholics have now seen the result. Show us a skeptic (one who does not believe in healing or exorcism or prophecy), and we'll show you someone who does not read Scripture.

We have become too secularized and too busy reading complex theology -- the ideas of others about the Bible, or about the ideas of previous theologians about the Bible -- instead of the Bible itself. We formulate complex ideas to impress others.

In other words, we get so wrapped up in the words of man that we forget the Word of God -- which encourages us to exercise spiritual gifts and to believe in the simple movement of Him everywhere (including in current events). When we read Scripture, we understand more about current events than if we read the newspaper.

A Church that is not prophetic, that is not Bible-based, is not a Christian one. It is the very foundation for our precious sacraments!

Call it "aridity" : there is a great spiritual vacancy in the intellectualized Western Church and from the vacancy has erupted scandal.

Unlike other written works, the Bible is alive and of endless fascination for those who come to know its actual power. It informs every day. It relates to different things at different times. It pertains to every circumstance. As Saint Therese said, it has a hidden nature that can be enthralling.

And it tells us what Christians are supposed to do: pray with a living faith, cast out demons, heal, spread the Word, love, give. During the disaster of Katrina the worldly institutions fell while the spiritual ones -- the churches, the charities -- picked up the pieces.

It is in the Bible that we find the richness of wisdom. It is in the Bible that we feel the Holy Spirit.

God will speak to you there.

Need an answer? Remarkably and often miraculously, it's in the testaments. 

[resources: the Catholic Bible]



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For more discussion.

Catholics, are you currently in a Bible Study group?

1 posted on 10/05/2005 11:05:12 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: All
We have become too secularized and too busy reading complex theology -- the ideas of others about the Bible, or about the ideas of previous theologians about the Bible -- instead of the Bible itself.
 
Bingo!!

2 posted on 10/05/2005 11:05:39 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: nickcarraway; sandyeggo; Siobhan; Lady In Blue; NYer; american colleen; Pyro7480; livius; ...
Catholic Discussion Ping!

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Catholic Discussion Ping List.

3 posted on 10/05/2005 11:07:00 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: murphE; Agrarian; GrandEagle; Rocketman
"AT ROOT OF CATHOLIC PROBLEMS IS LACK OF BIBLICAL SPIRITUALITY"

Very interesting comments from Ratzinger. Ping!

4 posted on 10/05/2005 11:23:50 PM PDT by Rytwyng
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To: Salvation
The remedy is the book it is all based on. The Church is in desperate need of biblical spirituality.

Pope Discovers Principle of Sola Scriptura!

5 posted on 10/05/2005 11:26:19 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: jo kus
Remember what I said a few months back, about how perhaps the hoped-for reunion might occur in our lifetimes?

Hmmmm......

6 posted on 10/05/2005 11:29:06 PM PDT by Rytwyng
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To: P-Marlowe
Pope Discovers Principle of Sola Scriptura!

Or perhaps Prima Scriptura, or Nulla Contra Scripturam (feel free to correct my Latin). Still, a good thing.

I knew right up front, this Ratzinger guy was cool. Now he's proving it.

7 posted on 10/05/2005 11:30:48 PM PDT by Rytwyng
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To: Rytwyng
That's a good start.

It is good news. And miles better than the FR Roman Catholic rant the day before yesterday about: "Throwing away their bibles with the catholic bishops of England" in favor of using Catechisms and Missives as in Pre-1962 pre-Vatican II Catholicism.

Now if Pope could say biblical spirituality is based upon the realization of biblical salvation aka the atonement of Christ, in his once and for all sacrifice for the sins of the world, and our confessions of our sins to Him as our high priest and scarifice --- then we'd hit the jackpot.

But this is no small step.

Now in truth a bunch of Catholics on FR hate all the Popes since vatican II and concider them betrayers of the religion. -- One of them even gave a link to the most anti-vatican II web site I have ever seen. Basicly the site called all of them anti-christs. And charged them with sins of fellowshipping with Jews, Greek Orthodox, the Dali Lama, and Muslims.

These guys openly wish for the days of he catholic church killing heretics, jews, muslims and other unbeleivers. Their words seem to testify to the authenticity of "Foxes Book of Martyrs" and they seem to openly admit that the spanish inquisition is one of the church's legacys.

And its seems to me that by refering to this man continually as Ratzinger instead of Pope Benedict some of the FR "Faithful" seem to be showing their disrespect and disdane for this man.

And It appears also that regardless of the reforms that have been made since 1962 the majority of those who I have known that are roman catholic's beleive what they want to beleve anyway. So I doubt there will be any repentance on FR for what was said the last few days belittling the word of God and elevating catechisms and the writings of thrologians above it. And I doubt that catholics going to show up in droves to bible studies to learn "spirituality" based on the word of God.

However I still give this pope high marks for saying waht he said and I appreaciate you sending me this post or else I would have missed what he said.

Lord bless you brother.
Keep seeing Him and Keep Reading his word and in due time you will hit critical mass.

8 posted on 10/06/2005 1:24:53 AM PDT by Rocketman
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To: Rocketman
...the majority of those who I have known that are roman catholic's beleive what they want to beleve anyway.

I can think of no better remedy for such arrogance than a working knowledge of the Bible.

A "Supreme Court" cut adrift from its "Constitution" is a recipe for anarchy.

This is a momentous development.

9 posted on 10/06/2005 1:43:58 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: Rytwyng
Or perhaps Prima Scriptura, or Nulla Contra Scripturam ...

Would you be kind enough to define these terms?

10 posted on 10/06/2005 1:49:35 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: papertyger
Or perhaps Prima Scriptura, or Nulla Contra Scripturam ... Would you be kind enough to define these terms?

Sure, and if anyone out there knows Latin, feel free to correct my grammar, too:

Prima Scriptura = Scripture First

Nulla Contra Scripturam = Nothing Contrary to Scripture

Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone), rules out the possiblity of retaining traditions and practices that do not appear in the Bible but are not contrary to it. (As to which those are, that's a long thorny debate.) Of course the Reformers never really meant "Sola Scriptura" in that sense, but confusion has since arisen.

11 posted on 10/06/2005 2:45:33 AM PDT by Rytwyng
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To: Salvation

Bump!


12 posted on 10/06/2005 2:47:34 AM PDT by .30Carbine (THE WORD became flesh and dwelt among us)
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To: Rocketman
These guys openly wish for the days of he catholic church killing heretics,..they seem to openly admit that the spanish inquisition is one of the church's legacys.

Yes, I've encountered this too, and was horrified. I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition....

And its seems to me that by refering to this man continually as Ratzinger instead of Pope Benedict some of the FR "Faithful" seem to be showing their disrespect and disdane for this man.

Not in my case - I like the guy. Perhaps other freepers who call him Ratzinger, do so with that motive.

13 posted on 10/06/2005 2:51:30 AM PDT by Rytwyng
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To: papertyger
That is tew trew.

And Pope Benedict in the speech said exactly that. The disease in the church is identical to the disease in the supreme court and their members going past the constitution as myths or ancient history in favor or modern psycho-babble or cathchisms writen by european lawmakers or comentaries written by the world court.

The disease in the church that was spoken a dozen or more times two days ago that the Bible is "inerrant but not literally" true is the same arguement liberal use about the constitution and the founding fathers.

One FR Catholic remaked how it was scarry that anone would beleive the bible was literal -- the same comment is made every day by liberals concerning people who literally believe the constitution.

IF the constitution was only written 230 years ago and people are so messed up and confused as to its meaning what do you think it will be like 1800 from now?

The single greatest thing that could be dome for all catholics and protestants is that all of their books about the bible all their comentaries and theologies would be burned.

Faced with the word of God alone everyone would have to seek Him for guidance instead of a cadre of dead men. And oddly enought they would discover the truth of the word of God.

I'm impressed by your remarks. -- You seem to grasp the situation well, and you even drew a comparision with it and the constitution few have been able to see any relation between what goes on in the church and the world. The church is made up of mortal men from the world, so they as strange as it may seem act and do worldly things. So as perversion comes down the pike like divorce and homosexuality it eventually shows up in the church sometimes a decade or two later, but it shows up.

Lord bless you too!

14 posted on 10/06/2005 2:55:55 AM PDT by Rocketman
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To: Salvation

Good stuff, S!

"Catholics, are you currently in a Bible Study group?"

We have a weekly Bible Study group at our Orthodox parish! :)


15 posted on 10/06/2005 4:06:14 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Salvation
"At Root of Catholic Problems is Lack of Biblical Spirituality"

Why bother???

Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible

16 posted on 10/06/2005 4:10:41 AM PDT by HarleyD ("...and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48)
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To: P-Marlowe
 

How can a Catholic that believes in Papal infallibility but not in the inerrancy of the bible choose the bible over the rules and thoughts of Men ordained of the church.

They do not believe the bible is accurate!

Read this article.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0%2C%2C13509-1811332%2C00.html

Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible

THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true.

 

The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible.

“We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision,” they say in The Gift of Scripture.

The document is timely, coming as it does amid the rise of the religious Right, in particular in the US.

Some Christians want a literal interpretation of the story of creation, as told in Genesis, taught alongside Darwin’s theory of evolution in schools, believing “intelligent design” to be an equally plausible theory of how the world began.

But the first 11 chapters of Genesis, in which two different and at times conflicting stories of creation are told, are among those that this country’s Catholic bishops insist cannot be “historical”. At most, they say, they may contain “historical traces”.

The document shows how far the Catholic Church has come since the 17th century, when Galileo was condemned as a heretic for flouting a near-universal belief in the divine inspiration of the Bible by advocating the Copernican view of the solar system. Only a century ago, Pope Pius X condemned Modernist Catholic scholars who adapted historical-critical methods of analysing ancient literature to the Bible.

In the document, the bishops acknowledge their debt to biblical scholars. They say the Bible must be approached in the knowledge that it is “God’s word expressed in human language” and that proper acknowledgement should be given both to the word of God and its human dimensions.

They say the Church must offer the gospel in ways “appropriate to changing times, intelligible and attractive to our contemporaries”.

The Bible is true in passages relating to human salvation, they say, but continue: “We should not expect total accuracy from the Bible in other, secular matters.”

They go on to condemn fundamentalism for its “intransigent intolerance” and to warn of “significant dangers” involved in a fundamentalist approach.

“Such an approach is dangerous, for example, when people of one nation or group see in the Bible a mandate for their own superiority, and even consider themselves permitted by the Bible to use violence against others.”

Of the notorious anti-Jewish curse in Matthew 27:25, “His blood be on us and on our children”, a passage used to justify centuries of anti-Semitism, the bishops say these and other words must never be used again as a pretext to treat Jewish people with contempt. Describing this passage as an example of dramatic exaggeration, the bishops say they have had “tragic consequences” in encouraging hatred and persecution. “The attitudes and language of first-century quarrels between Jews and Jewish Christians should never again be emulated in relations between Jews and Christians.”

As examples of passages not to be taken literally, the bishops cite the early chapters of Genesis, comparing them with early creation legends from other cultures, especially from the ancient East. The bishops say it is clear that the primary purpose of these chapters was to provide religious teaching and that they could not be described as historical writing.

Similarly, they refute the apocalyptic prophecies of Revelation, the last book of the Christian Bible, in which the writer describes the work of the risen Jesus, the death of the Beast and the wedding feast of Christ the Lamb.

The bishops say: “Such symbolic language must be respected for what it is, and is not to be interpreted literally. We should not expect to discover in this book details about the end of the world, about how many will be saved and about when the end will come.”

In their foreword to the teaching document, the two most senior Catholics of the land, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor, Archbishop of Westminster, and Cardinal Keith O’Brien, Archbishop of St Andrew’s and Edinburgh, explain its context.

They say people today are searching for what is worthwhile, what has real value, what can be trusted and what is really true.

The new teaching has been issued as part of the 40th anniversary celebrations of Dei Verbum, the Second Vatican Council document explaining the place of Scripture in revelation. In the past 40 years, Catholics have learnt more than ever before to cherish the Bible. “We have rediscovered the Bible as a precious treasure, both ancient and ever new.”

A Christian charity is sending a film about the Christmas story to every primary school in Britain after hearing of a young boy who asked his teacher why Mary and Joseph had named their baby after a swear word. The Breakout Trust raised £200,000 to make the 30-minute animated film, It’s a Boy. Steve Legg, head of the charity, said: “There are over 12 million children in the UK and only 756,000 of them go to church regularly.

That leaves a staggering number who are probably not receiving basic Christian teaching.”

BELIEVE IT OR NOT

UNTRUE

Genesis ii, 21-22

So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept he took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; and the rib which the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man

Genesis iii, 16

God said to the woman [after she was beguiled by the serpent]: “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

Matthew xxvii, 25

The words of the crowd: “His blood be on us and on our children.”

Revelation xix,20

And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with brimstone.”

TRUE

Exodus iii, 14

God reveals himself to Moses as: “I am who I am.”

Leviticus xxvi,12

“I will be your God, and you shall be my people.”

Exodus xx,1-17

The Ten Commandments

Matthew v,7

The Sermon on the Mount

Mark viii,29

Peter declares Jesus to be the Christ

Luke i

The Virgin Birth

John xx,28

Proof of bodily resurrection

JOIN THE DEBATE
www.timesonline.co.uk/debate

 

 

17 posted on 10/06/2005 4:37:32 AM PDT by Rhadaghast (Yeshua haMashiach hu Adonai Tsidkenu)
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To: HarleyD
Didn't see your post, the article or a similar one is posted below. I do agree though. When ever the church says the bible is irrellevent again it will be back to Cannon Law. "If Cannon Law was good enough for St. Peter then it is good enough for me!"
18 posted on 10/06/2005 4:40:31 AM PDT by Rhadaghast (Yeshua haMashiach hu Adonai Tsidkenu)
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To: Salvation
Catholics, are you currently in a Bible Study group?

Nope. For me, the 'study' part of that phrase has some unfortunate connotations. As in people telling me Matthew 'put words' in Jesus' mouth because of his intended audience. Jesus didn't actually say that, you see.

But I read it every day alone and in groups and I believe God speaks directly to us in the words of Scripture. Just like the Church teaches us.

I would prefer a nice Lectio Divina group. But, as the Pope points out, those are few and far between.

I think we have some comments here based on the assumption that Pope Benedict is propounding some 'new' teaching.

I think what he is saying is our problem is that some do not adhere to what the Church has always taught. And some have no idea what the Church actually teaches.

19 posted on 10/06/2005 4:50:48 AM PDT by siunevada
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To: Salvation

The good news is that most towns have more than a single Catholic parish. If your's does not stress the Bible, then you can likely find one that does!


20 posted on 10/06/2005 4:51:07 AM PDT by pissant
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To: Rytwyng; Rocketman
I've encountered this too, and was horrified. I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition....

OK First, I am not the Spanish Inquisition so be assured I won't make you sit in the comfy chair! Second, I am not a sedevacantist (those who think the Popes since Vatican II are invalid). Indeed, I am very much a supporter of our current Pope's election and, though I have problems with the decisions and actions of certain bishops, priests, and Cardinals; I am a faithful daughter of the Roman Catholic Church.

That being said, the Spanish Inquisition is a much maligned occurance of history. Thanks to current research carried out by serious historians, some of whom are not Catholic, and computer technology the thousands upon thousands of detailed documents of each case handled by the various arms of the Spanish Inquisition over hundreds of years have been compiled and analyzed. It was definately not the heinous institution claimed by 16th century propagandists. The vast majority of the cases, over 80% were handled by lay lawyers and the few hundred people who were actually executed over its almost 500 year history pale in comparison to what happened in its Northern European counterparts.

21 posted on 10/06/2005 4:56:13 AM PDT by Diva
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To: Diva

bump


22 posted on 10/06/2005 5:02:29 AM PDT by Tribune7
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To: Rytwyng
Remember what I said a few months back, about how perhaps the hoped-for reunion might occur in our lifetimes?

Perhaps the Spirit feels now is a good time for Christianity to begin to come together. I think we will have to if we want to retain religous freedom of worship in America.

Brother in Christ

23 posted on 10/06/2005 5:03:08 AM PDT by jo kus
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To: Salvation
Catholics, are you currently in a Bible Study group?

It would be nice to settle on one translation. I prefer the older translations. Most bible studies use the new ones and I think that some translators took some liberties. It would be nice to know Greek and Hebrew and read it in the original to know for sure.

24 posted on 10/06/2005 5:04:41 AM PDT by Desdemona (Music Librarian and provider of cucumber sandwiches, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary. Hats required.)
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To: Salvation
We have become too secularized and too busy reading complex theology -- the ideas of others about the Bible, or about the ideas of previous theologians about the Bible -- instead of the Bible itself. Bingo!!

In many ways, this very statement has caused much anger to Catholics when it came from other Christians.

25 posted on 10/06/2005 5:06:53 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Salvation
Catholics who pray the Liturgy of the Hours, the prayer of the Church, get a big dose of the Bible everyday!
26 posted on 10/06/2005 5:12:00 AM PDT by k omalley (Caro Enim Mea, Vere est Cibus, et Sanguis Meus, Vere est Potus)
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To: jo kus; Rytwyng
A few years ago, my Lutheran Pastor and my then girlfriend now wife's priest said that they expected reunion soon.

Only that it will happen in the catacombs, and by necessity.
27 posted on 10/06/2005 5:12:06 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: HarleyD

I think the article over-reacts to the Church's view that not all parts of Scripture are to be read ONLY literally, especially the first 11 Chapters of Genesis, call Pre-History. We first take the Scriptures literally, but we realize that it is possible that our interpretations should be taken in a more spiritual sense to get the most out of Scripture.

The story of Jonah, for example, CAN be taken as a parable or a story. It may or may not be literally true. However, the truth that God meant to say THROUGH the story is inerrant. What is that truth? Certainly, that Gentiles can be saved, and can be far more repentant than the chosen people (whether you interpret that as Jews of the OT or Christians of the NT).

Brother in Christ


28 posted on 10/06/2005 5:12:45 AM PDT by jo kus
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To: Desdemona

I like the NASB for study (almost to literal in its translation) and the new ESV for private reading (reminds of the RSV I grew up with and had to memorize so much of!).

The D-R is also good for reading, as it is in all those old English forms of speech.


29 posted on 10/06/2005 5:13:53 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Kolokotronis

"We have a weekly Bible Study group at our Orthodox parish! :)"


Do you know if it is for information and knowledge, for spirituality primarily, or a combination of both? I have seen versions of all three. Do they focus on a book, or a theme? I was considering leading one, but I don't know which would be better (of the two above questions), plus I am busy already...

Brother in Christ


30 posted on 10/06/2005 5:16:23 AM PDT by jo kus
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To: P-Marlowe; Rytwyng; Salvation
Pope Discovers Principle of Sola Scriptura!

I'm with Rytwyng. Not 'Sola', but 'Prima'. We also have Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium.

"No 'Sola' mia"...

31 posted on 10/06/2005 5:18:58 AM PDT by COBOL2Java (Many Democrats are not weak Americans. But nearly all weak Americans are Democrats.)
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To: Rhadaghast; NYer; Salvation

I wouldn't confuse the Bishops of England, Scotland and Wales for the Church as a whole. Sadly, the Catholic Church in England is very much of the mind as the Anglican Church in England. The Catholic Church as a whole appoints Status Quo Bishops in England and then ignores them, just a few tidbits for thoughts.

I agree with Benedict. The Bible is central. Scripture is one of the two pillars upon which The Church is built. The Modernist attack on Scripture in the last sixty years as eroded that pillar in the eyes of many, causing it to crumble. When it crumbles, the other pillar of Tradition collapses as well, since it cannot stand without the other. In essence, the Modernists attacked the Bible knowing it would bring down the Church in a sense. Only a return to a proper understanding for scripture, a proper reverence for it can remedy the previous attack.

It is not that Catholics don't look to the Bible (though many do not), but the attacks of the last sixty years were so successful in many places, that many do not properly respect the Bible. They hear too often that the Miracle of the Loaves and the Fishes is about sharing or that Jesus didn't raise Lazarus from the dead, merely showed everyone the joy of the soul going to God, or something like that. Attacking the mystery and the miracle of the Bible has undermined the Church as a whole, the logical next step was the attack on the Tradition of the Church, the Magisterium. And the end result, the Catholic Church in America or England.


32 posted on 10/06/2005 5:21:00 AM PDT by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: Rytwyng; P-Marlowe

Don't get your hopes up folks. The Catholic Church is not going to become Protestant. A call for more biblical literacy is not equal to the Pope validating Protestantism's sola scriptura error.


33 posted on 10/06/2005 5:23:12 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: jo kus

The difference between literal history and history. Literal history being the history witnessed by the author, versus the Creation which was witnessed by God and the angels. Genesis of Creation was the act of God and his actions made it be, but not necessarily EXACTLY as described in Genesis. Versus, the History of Abraham, Moses, Joshua, the Judges, etc, which is literal history witnessed by humanity and the people of Israel.


34 posted on 10/06/2005 5:24:34 AM PDT by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: papertyger
...the majority of those who I have known that are roman catholic's beleive what they want to beleve anyway.
I can think of no better remedy for such arrogance than a working knowledge of the Bible.

I can tell you that nothing outside of imposing the equivalent of Sharia law is going to make Catholics believe uniformly about doctrine. Think of it as a bell curve. You're always going to have 5% who are totally out in left field, 5% totally out in right field, and maybe 50% that believe correctly, with the rest holding beliefs in varying degrees.

This is just human nature.
35 posted on 10/06/2005 5:26:16 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: HarleyD
Why bother??? Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible

Are you here to fart all over the thread?
36 posted on 10/06/2005 5:27:34 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: Salvation

From a Methodist, we have another smart pope in this world.


37 posted on 10/06/2005 5:28:10 AM PDT by bmwcyle (We broke Pink's Code and found a terrorist message)
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To: StAthanasiustheGreat
I wouldn't confuse the Bishops of England, Scotland and Wales for the Church as a whole.

Why not? If Protestant polemicists can extrapolate the words of a 17 year old they met at a garage sale years ago to represent the beliefs (said in an actual FR post this week) of the entire 1 billion+ Catholic Church, using the bishops is no sweat.

I won't play that game though, bringing up Jimmy Swaggart or Pat Robertson and his diamond mines or Bishop Gene Robinson.
38 posted on 10/06/2005 5:32:20 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: HarleyD
Harley,I,m surprised at you.
What,s your purpose here?
Just because one Cardinal made that statement does not mean it,s shared by the whole Catholic faith.
Anyone can surely find fault with statements made by individuals of all denominations.

The problem with people that bash the Catholic Church is that they have accepted propaganda as fact.

This is always a dangerous thing,especially for the Christian mind.

Your brother in Christ.
39 posted on 10/06/2005 5:33:05 AM PDT by pro610 (faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains.Praise Jesus Christ!)
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To: Salvation

I just started a 24 week time line based Catholic Bible Study last night. Usually I would go to a Pentecostal Bible study but I have now found a new bible study home. It was great to be able to fellowship with other Catholics who believe in the Sacraments, and pray the Rosary. I enjoyed my old bible study but it would make me upset when people would tell me that I wasn't saved and my baptism was invalid.


40 posted on 10/06/2005 5:45:53 AM PDT by todd1
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To: Rocketman

The Catechism is a great tool to use while Studying the Bible.


41 posted on 10/06/2005 5:47:28 AM PDT by todd1
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To: pro610
At what point will the Magistarium change the tradition of the church if Scripture contradicts it? Will it ever admit it was completely in error?

Do you know you can still buy indulgences? What part of scripture is that from? If the pope speak excathedre and it is not supported by scripture what then?

The tradition of man is warned against in scripture. That includes the teachings of "A" "The" church.

I want to hope that this pope is leading people to be lead of the Holy Spirit, but you must understand his meaning of these words. Holy Spirit in the RCC cannot contradict the RCC. Therefore B16 cannot be referring to the third person of the God head, B16 out ranks Him.
42 posted on 10/06/2005 5:50:11 AM PDT by Rhadaghast (Yeshua haMashiach hu Adonai Tsidkenu)
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To: StAthanasiustheGreat
The difference between literal history and history

I believe the Church uses the term "pre-history" when refering to the first 11 Chapters of Genesis. Probably based on much of what you said - although some of the writers didn't actually witness what they wrote about. (Like Luke or Moses) I have read a good case for Genesis being small sections of writings from the actual "Patriarchs" preceding Abram that were later compiled into one book, Genesis. Who can say. The point is that God desires a particular message to be brought out in the Scriptures, and it is up to the Church to teach it formally, as well as the individual to practice some sort of Scriptural spirituality to take meaning from these writings in his own walk with Christ. (which presumes one not take a meaning that is the opposite of the Church) I don't see the point of arguing about whether Jonah was a real historical account or not. Perhaps for Protestants who deny the existence of a teaching Church, it is a problem and they thus defend its literalness against all evidence. But for a Catholic, we can read Scripture spiritually as well as literally. We realize that God can speak through various literary genres, to include parables or legendary stories.

Regards

43 posted on 10/06/2005 5:51:21 AM PDT by jo kus
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To: Salvation

I just started a 24 week time line based Catholic Bible Study last night. Usually I would go to a Pentecostal Bible study but I have now found a new bible study home. It was great to be able to fellowship with other Catholics who believe in the Sacraments, and pray the Rosary. I enjoyed my old bible study but it would make me upset when people would tell me that I wasn't saved and my baptism was invalid.


44 posted on 10/06/2005 5:55:17 AM PDT by todd1
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To: Rhadaghast
At what point will the Magistarium change the tradition of the church if Scripture contradicts it? Will it ever admit it was completely in error?

The Tradition of the Church and the Scripture come from the same source, God. Thus, they CANNOT contradict. If they appear to in your eyes, it is because you are misinterpreting something. I don't know what you have in mind here, but I have argued every conceivable Protestant argument, and have not found any case with merit yet.

Do you know you can still buy indulgences? What part of scripture is that from?

Without detailing your misunderstanding of indulgences, the Church has the authority to bind and loosen in Matthew's Gospel, Chapter 16 and 18. The Church has ALWAYS understood those verses as the ability to make such decisions for the sake of the entire Church. The concept of indulgences are Scriptural, as Martin Luther himself wrote before he left the Church.

The tradition of man is warned against in scripture

You are confusing terms. "Tradition of men", as Christ puts it, means something that keeps men from God. It is NOT a Tradition that is made up by man! Christ specifically refers to Korban, the practice of avoiding one's duty to their parents - a practice that kept a person from God so that he could keep access to his money. A tradition like the rosary, for example, does NOT keep a person from God, but focuses one's attention on Christ - this can hardly be considered a "tradition of men" in the sense Christ meant. A good example of "tradition of men" is Sola Fide. It is an invention of men (and not found in Scripture) that tends to deny the utility of love. This keeps man from God, since God is love.

B16 cannot be referring to the third person of the God head, B16 out ranks Him.

Utterly ridiculous. Which Pope EVER said he outranked God? Or even insinuated it? Please, brother.

Regards

45 posted on 10/06/2005 6:05:25 AM PDT by jo kus
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To: P-Marlowe; JohnRoss
Pope Discovers Principle of Sola Scriptura!

I was going to say that, but you beat me to it!

Don't tell the guy who posted the The Vanity of Their Minds: Sola Scriptura thread!

46 posted on 10/06/2005 6:08:41 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Psalm 73)
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To: Rhadaghast

It needs to be emphasized. Thanks for posting.


47 posted on 10/06/2005 6:28:42 AM PDT by HarleyD ("...and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48)
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To: Salvation

I'm Catholic and part of a women's Bible Study.

I love it!


48 posted on 10/06/2005 6:29:26 AM PDT by diamond6 (Everyone who is for abortion has already been born. Ronald Reagan)
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To: jo kus

"Do you know if it is for information and knowledge, for spirituality primarily, or a combination of both? I have seen versions of all three. Do they focus on a book, or a theme?"

I think the focus always has to be on the advancement of spirituality but clearly gaining knowledge is an important component of any Bible Study. Usually, whether it is a period with a specific book or a specific theme, the writings and reflections of the Fathers or of a recognized, holy and perhaps modern spiritual father are read in conjunction with the Bible lest there be any question about whether or not what is being taught is based in the Holy Tradition of The Church or merely the speculations of the church of Fr. K, for example.


49 posted on 10/06/2005 6:53:38 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Alex Murphy

Hehehe


You beat me to it.....


50 posted on 10/06/2005 7:00:32 AM PDT by Gamecock (Crystal meth is not a fruit of the Spirit.)
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