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The devil doesn't just test people who want to be tested. |
Posted on 10/06/2005 6:54:00 AM PDT by NYer
Editor's Note: This interview discusses key details of scenes crucial to the plot of 'Emily Rose,' which may spoil the movie for you if you haven't seen it yet.
GODSPY: Fr. Lebar, did you find the movie convincing?
Fr. James Lebar: Yes, I would say so. I thought the movie was good; it presented things fairly. I didn't see anything in the movie that didn't belong there.
How do you think it compared to The Exorcist?
That was an entirely different situation. This move didn't show all the grim and gory details ... it did show the attacks by the devil, but I think this was a more cerebral movie in that it was trying to find out how the girl died, and whether the priest was guilty of negligence.
I'd like to ask you about some key points in the movie—for instance, the question of the priest's possible negligence hinged on the fact that he took Emily off her medication for "psychotic epilepsy." Was that realistic? Would an exorcist ever do that?
The devil doesn't just test people who want to be tested.
I certainly wouldn't delve into an area I didn't know anything about. I wouldn't do something like that without consulting a psychiatrist.
One of the most commented on and controversial aspects of the movie was that Emily seemed to be a pious girl who hadn't done anything to open herself up to demonic attack. No dabbling in the Occult, no playing with Ouija boards. Can demonic possession happen without some sort of consent on the part of the person, can it happen against her free will?
Oh sure. The devil doesn't just test people who want to be tested. He wants to test everybody, especially people who aren't asking to be tempted.
In what ways does possession happen?
It can happen in one of two ways. A person can open the door to evil through crime, sin, unholy practices, or hatred of God. There are people who never participate in a satanic cult who make a pact with the devil, who give themselves over to evil.
The other way is when the devil wants someone for a specific purpose, and he initiates the possession to induce fear or despair in the person, or for some other reason we don't know about. These people don't realize what's happening, and are caught up in the whole thing without warning.
Another interesting twist in the movie was that the medication was blamed for blocking Emily's free will during the ritual, which is why the exorcism didn't work. Is that accurate?
Not being a psychiatrist, I don't know; On a certain level the free will of the individual is working no matter what. And within an exorcism itself, the devil does so many different things, that because of the stress and strain it would be hard to determine what the subject was really willing...
The movies implies that the possessed person has to consent to the exorcism.
More than likely the person needing an exorcism would not agree to one. They're so wound up by the devil that he overpowers their mind. That's why we have legal guardians to make decisions when the person can't. So if the person is so wound up because of the presence of the devil another person can say this is what's needed.
When a person does their best to conform to the will of God they can put up with a lot...
What about the emphasis, during the exorcism in the movie, on finding out the demon's names. What's that about?
In Old Testament times it was always thought that if you knew the name of your adversary you had more control over them, so that it was always thought that it was important to know the names of the demons...
The climax of the movie is the scene where Emily has a vision of the Blessed Virgin Mary, who gives her the choice whether to continue her possession. She chooses to stay possessed, which eventually kills her. She martyrs herself as a witness to the reality of Satan. Is there a theological basis for this? Many have asked, "Why would God allow a pious young girl to suffer so much?"
To strengthen her spirituality. To strengthen her love of God. Look at someone like . The Nazis threw him in a concentration camp against his will, but while he was there a situation presented itself where he freely chose to plunge deeper into that horror, to suffer and die in place of someone else. That man he replaced lived to see Kolbe canonized as a saint, someone who gave good example, who was a witness to love's triumph over evil.
So we should see this as a version of the "dark night," the absence of God experienced by saints such as St. Therese, and even Mother Teresa?
Was it a bad thing that Kolbe was sent to the camp? Of course. Did it have another purpose? It certainly did. It made him a saint. What made him a saint was not going to the concentration camp—it was conforming to God's will and doing his priestly work inside the camp, in helping people as best he could. In retrospect, what he did inspired many others to go on.
You're saying that St. Maximilian can help us understand Emily Rose's situation—both were faithful believers who were subjected to evil against their wills, and both situations ended in their freely choosing to lay down their lives for God's sake?
Right.
So to ask why God would permit Emily to die this way is just part of the larger mystery of why God permits suffering in general?
Yes. God sees the greater good.
And the idea that Emily could be a saint—which is what the priest in the movie suggests—that's far-fetched?
No.
The director, , said that what helped him come to terms with the tragedy of Emily was that "God Himself endured that—if you believe in the Incarnation." Do you agree with that?
Look, if the devil is possessing a person, who then gets into the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, the devil ain't happy about it!
I guess I would say yes to that, although I might say it differently. We should also remember that when a person does their best to conform to the will of God they can put up with a lot, and it's not masochistic or self-destructive. God doesn't abandon the person who undergoes these things.
In the movie, Emily runs into a church, where she is subjected to a very physical, demonic attack. Her back arches way back, and she's in great distress. That surprised me...
I'm sure you've heard or read stories of people going into a Catholic church and having to leave because of the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, and other things as well. Let me give you an example.
Recently in another part of the country, a priest was working on a case where a woman who was being oppressed would meet him in a church. A point came when she didn't want to go into the church anymore—she'd try to go in, but she'd get agitated, as if there was a plexiglass shield at the entrance. So the next time the priest arranged for her to wait in the lobby while he signaled another priest to remove the Blessed Sacrament from the church. She didn't know this was happening. The priest then told her to try again, and she went in and sat down and they talked for an hour. That's an indication that the devil is involved because he doesn't want to be in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament.
In the movie I was surprised that she could be attacked right in front of the altar.
She went in the church for help. She didn't know that was going to happen to her.
Wouldn't she have been protected there?
Look, if the devil is possessing a person, who then gets into the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, he ain't happy about it. That would account for that reaction.
A lot would depend on whether Emily at that point was oppressed or possessed. An oppressed person can go to mass sometimes, other times can't. Because of that, very often they'll fool the exorcist, if you're only depending on that sign.
God doesn’t abandon the person who undergoes these things.
From the movie, I don't know whether Emily was a normal everyday person, whether she did something bad and got possessed, whether the devil went after her because she was good ... a lot of things follow from the answers to those questions. She knew enough to go into a church when she was attacked. The attacks before then could have been oppressions, not possessions. But at one point the devil possessed her so when she went into the church he had an adverse reaction of the worst kind.
So we shouldn't view it as "the demons are getting their way even in a church," but that they're having an adverse reaction to the Blessed Sacrament...
Yes. The devil doesn't want her there at all. He'd want to get her out of there.
What do you think about the media attention that movies like Emily Rose bring to the subject of demonic possession? Isn't there a danger that it will lead people to see demons where none exist?
One of the reasons I'm willing to do interviews like this is so that this phenomenon comes to the attention of people, Catholic and non-Catholic, and they will be informed that a: The devil exists, b: He tries to trouble people, and c: If he troubles people so much that he possesses them, they can be helped through exorcism.
The movie suggests that the reason for Emily Rose's martyrdom was to demonstrate to the world that the devil exists. You could say that, like the crucifixion, an apparent victory for Satan was turned to defeat. Does evidence of real demons lead people to believe in God?
Yes. I've heard of many cases where people who didn't have any strong belief in God, who became possessed or oppressed themselves, or knew someone who came into that condition, from that came belief in the true God.
This is not true. The bible states, "Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world." A Christian filled with the Holy Spirit cannot be also simultaneously possessed by a demon or the devil. There is not one documented case.
Did not the devil test Jesus?
The priest wasn't talking about demonic possession in the excerpt you quoted from. He was talking about temptation, which is different. Everyone is tempted by the Devil and his minions. Why do you think Our Lord gave us an example for us by being tempted by the Devil too?
Did the devil possess Jesus?
Yes, but the movie is about possession is it not? And the point is that the girl was pious.
I'm a little scared to see this movie. Have you watched it? The Exorcist terrified me, it showed Satan in ways I have no words for. Shoulda never gone, it certainly didn't help my faith, just could'nt put it in the right place in my mind I guess. I can know and do know that Satan and hell exsists, but I don't think I need to see a movie about it to keep me right in life.
Note two things about Job: (1) He was not possessed but tested - and his faith held; (2) Satan had to get PERMISSION from God to test Job, which shows that God is greater than Satan - they are not equals.
Pious and perfectly pious are not one in the same. It is that chink of in perfection that allows the evil one access.
"What harm can the devil cause to the living? There are few books on the subject and a lack of common language. I will now attempt to define the words that I will use in this book.
Ordinary activity. This is "temptation", which is the most common activity of the demons, and it is directed against all men. When Jesus allowed Satan to tempt him, he accepted our human condition. I will not talk about this common diabolical endeavor, because the purpose of this book is to highlight Satan's "extraordinary activity", which can take place only if God so allows.
This second category can take six different forms:
1. External physical pain caused by Satan. We know of this from many lives of the saints. We know that Saint Paul of the Cross, the Curé of Ars, Padre Pio, and many others were beaten, flogged, and pummeled by demons. This external form of persecution does riot affect the soul; therefore with this type there has never been the need for an exorcism, only for prayers. Here I will dwell only on the other types of actions that directly affect exorcists.
2. Demonic possession. This occurs when Satan takes full possession of the body (not the soul); he speaks and acts without the knowledge or consent of the victim, who therefore is morally blameless. It is the gravest and most spectacular form of demonic afflictions, and it attracts the attention of producers of movies such as The Exorcist. According to the Ritual for exorcisms, some of the signs of possession include: speaking in tongues, extraordinary strength, and revealing the unknown. The man of Gerasa is a clear Gospel example of possession. To fix a set "model" for demonic possession would be a serious mistake; the affliction runs the gamut of symptoms and severity. For instance, I have exercised two totally possessed persons who remained perfectly still and silent during the exorcism. I could cite many other examples and as many different symptoms.
3. Diabolical oppression. Symptoms vary from a very serious to a mild illness. There is no possession, loss of consciousness, or involuntary action and word. The Bible gives us many examples of oppression; one of them is job, He was not possessed, but he lost his children, his goods, and his health. The bent woman and the deaf and dumb man who were cured by Jesus were not subject to total possession, but there was a demonic presence that caused physical discomfort. Saint Paul was most certainly not possessed by a demon, but he had a demonic oppression that caused an evil affliction: "And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me" (2 Cor 12:7). There is no doubting the evil origin of the affliction.
While possessions are still relatively rare today, we exorcists run into a great number of people who have been struck by the devil in their health, jobs, or relationships. We must make it clear that to diagnose and heal an oppression-related illness is not any easier than to diagnose and cure a person afflicted by full possession. The degree of gravity may be different, but the difficulty of the diagnosis and the amount of time involved in healing are the same.
4. Diabolic obsession. Symptoms include sudden attacks, at times ongoing, of obsessive thoughts, sometimes even rationally absurd, but of such nature that the victim is unable to free himself Therefore the obsessed person lives in a perpetual state of prostration, desperation, and attempts at suicide. Almost always obsession influences dreams. Some people will say that this is evidence of mental illness, requiring the services of a psychiatrist or a psychologist. The same could be said of all other forms of demonic phenomena. Some symptoms, however, are so inconsistent with known illnesses that they point with certainty to their evil origins. Only an expert and well-trained eye can identify the crucial differences.
5. Diabolic infestation. Infestations affect houses, things, or animals. This book will only mention the topic. I merely want to state that I will never use this term when I refer to persons. I will always talk about possession, oppression, and obsession.
6. Diabolical subjugation, or dependence. People fall into this form of evil when they voluntarily submit to Satan. The two most common forms of dependence are the blood pact with the devil and the consecration to Satan.
How can we defend ourselves from all these evils? A strict interpretation of the Ritual confines the use of exorcisms only to instances of true possession. However, as I stated before, the current Ritual fails to address many occasions in which an exorcist diagnoses an evil influence. In all cases when there is no possession, the usual means to obtain grace should be sufficient. These means are prayer; the sacraments; almsgiving; leading a Christian life; pardoning offenses; and soliciting the aid of our Lord, Mary, the saints, and the angels. I will now say a few words about the angels. I gladly end this chapter on the devil, Christ's adversary, by speaking about the angels. They are our great allies. We owe them a great debt, and it is a mistake to mention them as rarely as we do. Every one of us has a guardian angel, most faithful of friends twenty-four hours a day, from conception to death. He unceasingly protects us, body and soul, while we, for the most part, never think about him. We also know that each nation has its particular guardian angel and, probably, every community and family, although we are not certain on the two last points. We know, however, that the angels are a multitude, and their desire to help us is much greater than Satan's desire to destroy us."
The whole article is very interesting. 
Fr. James Lebar: Yes, I would say so. I thought the movie was good; it presented things fairly.
That's high praise considering the source. I find the subject fascinating. I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing. OTOH, our society can certainly benefit from belief in the devil, because he really exists.
4. Diabolic obsession. Symptoms include sudden attacks, at times ongoing, of obsessive thoughts, sometimes even rationally absurd, but of such nature that the victim is unable to free himself
I'm convinced that I've gone through this several times, for periods of 3,4, and 5 months. In each case, an idea or ideology came over me that was absurd, but it was all-consuming, and made it very difficult for me to perform my normal duties. I believe that they were oppressions because I can remember when these things came over me like a wave of nausea. And I can remember how they lifted almost as instantaneously.
I fought them off as best I could, and I never let them prevent me from doing my duties, but I wouldn't wish the experience on anyone.
Indeed he does but, as evidenced by some of the above comments, who really believes it? As Fr. Lebar notes:
One of the reasons I'm willing to do interviews like this is so that this phenomenon comes to the attention of people, Catholic and non-Catholic, and they will be informed that
a: The devil exists,
b: He tries to trouble people, and
c: If he troubles people so much that he possesses them, they can be helped through exorcism.
Many years ago, a group of catholic HS girls gathered at a friend's house. It was a hot summer day. The house had no a/c. The girl's mother was outside, hanging laundry, as the girls took out a ouija board and began playing with it. One of the girls had a 'spirit guide' named EOT and he answered their silly questions. Suddenly, he spelled out WARNING, several times. The girls giggled. The planchet stopped moving. The girls prodded it with more questions but the planchet would not budge. Curious as to what was going on, one of the girls asked: "Is anyone there?" The planchet immediately shot to YES. "Who are you?", the girl asked. The planchet moved rapidly from one letter to another, spelling out words. The girls called the letters out while another girl repeated the letter back and wrote it down. It took a while to decipher the flow of letters, especially since the planchet was going so fast. Amazingly, if one letter was missed, the planchet returned to it.
The girl transcribing the text suddenly gasped. She had deciphered the jumble of letters. It spelled out the spirit's different names. The final phrase was "..... but my preferred call me Beelzebub".
The girls didn't believe this; it was just a silly game, right? But the planchet spun back into motion. The spirit beckoned one of the girls to meet him. He promised anything she wanted "includinged". The girl transcribing the text laughed at that word. "Just goes to show this is a game; he can't even spell", she said. But then she looked at it again .... this wasn't one word, but two. The spirit promised her anything she wanted "including Ed". The girl was totally infatuated with a young man she had met several weeks earlier and was desperately trying to track him down through friends and acquaintances. His name had not come up at all that day ... until that moment. The girls now realized this was no game; they were dabbling with evil.
Just then, the mother who had been hanging laundry walked into the house. She commented that it was cold inside and put on a sweater. As she stepped outside to hang more wash, the family cat began to walk in, arched its back, hissed and ran back outside.
The girls posed another question, to "test" the spirit. They asked: "Who is the most wicked person in this house?" and the spirit named the most innocent child. That was more than ample proof. The child was sent to fetch a Rosary. This was dropped on the planchet. With that, the planchet flew across the room and into the open fireplace.
This is a true story. I was the girl transcribing the text.
I just saw it the other night. It is not a horror movie in the sense that we see scarry stuff just for the sake of seeing horror.We see, during flashbacks in the priests trial, various things that happened to her during her possesion.
Yes, there is an exorcism scene.
This movie shows you that yes, the devil exists. The most disturbing part for me was when the demons were telling the priest their names. Very disturbing, who they were. (You have to see the movie to find out.)
It is more of a "cerebral movie" as the priest is this interview said.
I wouldn't be surprised. I think this sort of thing is most likely to happen to those who are actually striving for holiness, or towards perfection in the spiritual life like the saints, in order to confuse and discourage them. Too quickly do most people write these attacks off as "psychological" or "stress induced". A good confessor, knowledgeable about these things is the best guide, however these days it is difficult to find one.
I haven't heard that but I can't imagine a more powerful shield against the evil one than a perfect act of contrition and the Eucharist. Talk about well armed!
Oh, I agree.
Why would the devil bother with a terribly sinful, already fallen person? He already has the horrible, unrepentant sinner.
Satan needs to go after the good guys. Especially the very good ones.
Thank you for posting that. I have been intending to get his books.
And Satan targets priests and bishops more intensely than laypeople because he knows if he gets a priest or bishop, he also gets many other souls associated with that priest or bishop. With that in mind, try to include priests and bishops in your regular prayers. They really need them.
Amen. After giving me absolution, my confessor will always say, "and please pray for me". How can I refuse?
The actress was so good that they didn't use special effects. The voices and writhing and whatnot is all her.
Mine, too.
Perhaps the zeitgeist of the world right now prevents the b?Bishops from mentioning it. Or,maybe it never happened and I am looking for excuses for the derelictions of the hierarchy.
Any thoughts?
Saw the movie last weekend,never have I been so scared. It was chilling. I wouldn't advise it for those of faint heart.
Fascinating post ny'er,I believe it and glad I didn't experience it. Must have put the fear of God in you. How did the other girls fare? You seem to have been affected in a very positive way as evidenced by your untiring work for the Church and the Triune God,your eloquence and your spirituality.
I can tell you after seeing it, I was kind of looking askance at my bedroom clock while trying to go to sleep. I kept expecting to see 3:00 a.m. blinking on it.
By the way, this book might be of interest to you all. I read it in one sitting some years ago. All true.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0595132642/qid=1128623947/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-4032175-5386214?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
This I don't doubt. I've read many others who speak of ritual abuse.
I have wondered if some of them were exorcised and put back in the parishes if it was considered a successful exorcism.
This I seriously doubt. They were treated with "psychology" if anything.
Why 3:00 a.m.? I'm curious because I seem to be waking up around that time lately.
That's basic Christianity 101. Satan can do nothing that God does not permit him to do. In fact, nobody can do anything that God does not at least permit to happen. (It may be contrary to how he wills us to behave, but he permits us to misuse our will in that way.)
Nothing this priest says disputes that.
As 3:00 pm is the hour of Divine Mercy, 3:00 am is considered the satanic parody.
Just say the Divine Mercy when you awaken. If you aren't Catholic, you can find it on the web or just ask.
Yikes! Now that I think about it, it seems to have started when I decided to, or was moved to, take a few moments at 3:00 p.m. every day to meditate on the Divine Mercy.
Yeah, I agree witht that too. Since I'm such a worrier, and the devil does'nt bother me, I think anyway that is noticeable, makes me worry that he shouldn't bother. Silly, huh?
But after reading some of the posts here, I am kinda wondering about the lesser of demonic influences that may have "oppressed" me or whatever because some things in my life seem to have at times no rationality. I think more and more its best to start your day out with prayer, even short, just something like, "Lord Jesus, get me through this day, seeking your will as I go" or something like that if you have no time. Our priest asked us one Sunday, if when we hit the snooze button on the alarm and exclaim "Oh God" what do we really mean by that. It was funny and not funny at the same time.
There's a number of bishops I would put on that list.
I'm convinced that I've gone through this several times, for periods of 3,4, and 5 months.
Last year, while I was reading on all this quite a bit and actively looking for where all the exorcists are hiding, strange things started happening. Only one time, was it an overwhelming sense of rage, but more along the lines of car windows shattered for no apparent reason. Considering I was walking out the door to Confession and Adoration when I found it, and to this day I can't figure out what happened, I have little doubt that there was something else at work. I haven't done much research since as car glass ain't cheap.
This stuff is all real and if people think it isn't, they'd best be careful.
Wow!!!
I don't doubt it. Go to Amazon.com and check out the reviews of the ouija "game" that are obviously written by children. Their experiences are similar.
My wife dabbled once with a ouija board with her sister. She says that she remembers the planchet moving. When it did, they dropped the game like a hot potatoe.
I may be wrong, but my reading of the ouija board account makes me think that it isn't ny'er herself who was the girl writing the account, but that she was quoting at length the girl's story as used by Fr. Lebar.
Ny'er, is this the case?
Ping. With Halloween coming up, the occult frenzy leading up to this moves into high gear.
From post #36
"As 3:00 pm is the hour of Divine Mercy, 3:00 am is considered the satanic parody."
It's always 3 p.m. somewhere in the world. Is it any wonder why Jesus told us to pray for our enemies? Our 12 hour opposite includes anti-American nations from Iran to the godless CCP. Often times, two separate religious orders pray for each other. If nations had prayer partners in a similar fashion I can only imagine the spiritual protection against such witching hours. I'll bet there's a dramatic drop in nightly crime rates.
Same here. This morning I woke at 2:30 and started the Divine Mercy, then the Rosary. So the prayers took the time until 3:30.
"For some reason, that same alertness eludes me when the alarm goes off at 5:00 AM."
The waking is odd. I go from completely asleep to absolutely awake and up. The only time I experienced that type of alertness was when my children were babies and cried at night a long, long time ago. There seems to be a command to pray, right then..
Same here! I can go right back to a sound sleep immediately but I'm not as alert at 4:00 or 4:30 (whenever my husband leaves for work.)
"It happened again this morning - 3:04 AM, to be exact. I woke up out of a sound sleep, totally alert, and knew what I needed to do."
Maybe someone in China or Iran must have needed your prayers at that moment!
During this age, the temple of the Holy SPirit is the Christian's body. The Temple was shifted from the mount to the believer after Christ died on the Cross and the veil in the Temple was rent in two. This leads to studies of indwelling of all three Persons of the Godhead.
This leads to the doctrines that those in faith with Christ may not be indwelt by fallen spirits. Demonic influence is possible. The believer might fall away on their own volition. Nothing, though, will separate the love of God from the believer.
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