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Tridentine Mass "Not a Priority," Says Cardinal Arinze (Vatican Synod)
Zenit News Agency ^ | October 13, 2005

Posted on 10/14/2005 7:01:46 AM PDT by NYer

VATICAN CITY, OCT. 13, 2005 (Zenit.org).- No one at the Synod of Bishops on the Eucharist has addressed the issue of the "Tridentine rite" Mass that the Latin Church used before the Second Vatican Council.

The prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments, Cardinal Francis Arinze, mentioned this at a press conference today when he evaluated the first phase of the synodal assembly.

"No synodal father has mentioned this point," said Cardinal Arinze, the co-president of the assembly. The so-called Tridentine rite was approved by Pope St. Pius V.

"If there are groups that desire the Tridentine Mass, this is already provided for," he said. "Bishops may allow it for groups."

"It is not a priority for the synod, as no one has spoken about it," the cardinal concluded. "The problem we have discussed is that many people don't go to Mass, and those that come don't understand -- they go to Communion but not to confession, as if they were immaculate."


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
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1 posted on 10/14/2005 7:01:54 AM PDT by NYer
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To: american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...


2 posted on 10/14/2005 7:02:42 AM PDT by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: NYer

Boy if only they could convey that last line to the regular church goer (as far as the notion that if you take communion without confession your essentially acting as though you are without sin).


3 posted on 10/14/2005 7:09:11 AM PDT by x5452
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To: NYer
"If there are groups that desire the Tridentine Mass, this is already provided for," he said. "Bishops may allow it for groups."

The key word there is "may." Perhaps the reason they aren't discussing it is because they know Pope Benedict XVI is going to issue a universal indult (pure speculation on my part).

4 posted on 10/14/2005 7:09:48 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (Blessed Pius IX, pray for us!)
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To: NYer
I don't understand traditionalists' obsession with the Tridentine Mass. Certainly the Novus Ordo Mass has been very poorly implemented by ill-doctrinated liturgists, but in its purest form the Mass is quite beautiful and perfectly legit.

Even the Tridentine Mass was a radical "change" from the celebration of the first Christians. If we follow their line of thought, the only acceptable form of worship would be in Greek or Aramaic and we should abandon the Latin rite entirely for the Maronite.
5 posted on 10/14/2005 7:10:54 AM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: NYer

When will they or will they ever realize that the reaspn many Catholics do not attend Mass is because it is not a Catholic Mass!! It is more of a rendition of the Lutheran/Protestant sunday Church meeting, with the communion.

Bring back the the Lation Tridentine Mass and the the strength of the Cathechism of the Council of Trent. Without these Historical Trademarks of the Catholic Church, there is no Catholic Church, just a facsimily.


6 posted on 10/14/2005 7:12:10 AM PDT by 26lemoncharlie ('Cuntas haereses tu sola interemisti in universo mundo!')
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To: mike182d
Something can be valid (e.g., "legit"), yet inferior at the same time.

Even the best examples of the Missa Normativa are still lacking something when compared to the "Mass of all Ages."

And I say this as someone who has only assisted at the Tradtional Latin Mass a handful of times. It's just too obvious to miss.

I think the best thing for the Church to do with the liberty is to go back to 1965 and start over with the reform, doing it incrementally and organically this time.

7 posted on 10/14/2005 7:21:43 AM PDT by B Knotts
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To: 26lemoncharlie
The reason that people do not attend Mass is that they themselves are not cognizant that they are Catholic. Being poorly catechized, many have no clue if they committed a moral Sin, and worse even if they did are being bombarded with rationalizations that this is no impediment to their own Salvation and well being. Why do you neeed confession if you don't Sin?

The Cardinal got it right, everyone thinks they are immaculate. Without prejudging a deceased person, this morning someone was talking about Jimi Hendrix, sitting in heaven smiling down at us appreciating the album, "Are You Experienced". I hope the poor guy had a flash deathbed conversion, but it is not likely.

If Jimi doesn't need the Church or the Mass, or any discernible sacrament to be sitting in Heaven, and this is what people believe, then we have a bigger problem than the form of the Rite of Mass.
8 posted on 10/14/2005 7:22:16 AM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: B Knotts
Something can be valid (e.g., "legit"), yet inferior at the same time.

What makes the Novus Ordo Mass inferior?

If the Novus Ordo Mass is celebrated as explicitely prescribed in the rubrics and Sancrosanctum Concilium, and not watered-down or "secularized" by liturgists, there is nothing "inferior" about it.
9 posted on 10/14/2005 7:23:58 AM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: 26lemoncharlie
It is more of a rendition of the Lutheran/Protestant sunday Church meeting, with the communion.

When the Novus Ordo Mass is celebrated strickly according to how Sancrosanctum Concilium and the GIRM dictate, it is nothing like a Protestant service.

Ignorant liturgists asking for "exceptions" left and right have done that.
10 posted on 10/14/2005 7:25:42 AM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: NYer
"[The Tridentine Mass] is not a priority... "The problem we have discussed is that many people don't go to Mass, and those that come don't understand

Unintentional irony alert.

11 posted on 10/14/2005 7:28:21 AM PDT by Romulus (Quomodo sedet sola civitas plena populo.)
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To: mike182d
What makes the Novus Ordo Mass inferior?

The New Mass: Inalienable Right or Inferior Rite?

12 posted on 10/14/2005 7:34:28 AM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: NYer
Way back when, the notion of sin was different. I grew up believing that if I ate meat on Friday I had committed a mortal sin and would go to hell if I died in that state of mortal sin.
Confession was necessary for mortal sins, not venial sins. Perhaps mortal and venial sins weren't clarified well. I'm not accusing, just thinking.

Today the word from the pulpit is that confession is essential for "egregous" sins. What is "egregous" sin? It's pretty bad stuff in my book.

At the same time we are exhorted to go to confession at least once a year because it's a good thing for us.

Perhaps I am reading this all wrong but it seems to me as if the concept of sin and confession have changed, that is, gotten more realistic. Ancient Christians didn't go to confession but once in a lifetime perhaps. It wasn't a weekly or even a yearly sacrament. Confession has changed over the millenium.

At the same time, the concept of receiving the Eucharist has been emphasized more. It also wasn't a DAILY sacrament for most Christians as it is today.

The world has changed. We Catholics DO have access to frequent confession and daily Mass and communion. I can readily understand why the Church has altered its sacraments.
Changes are never done quickly or without profound thought. I THINK that the Church tries to think things through.

13 posted on 10/14/2005 7:36:27 AM PDT by starfish923 (It's never right to do wrong. Socrates)
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To: mike182d
we should abandon the Latin rite entirely for the Maronite.

:-)

Not surprisingly, following a similar train of thought, many American Maronites prefer the soft homiletics and quick liturgy at the NO Mass over the more orthodox reminders of their sins and the 1 1/2 hour Divine Liturgy in the Maronite parishes. There is no pleasing everyone.

14 posted on 10/14/2005 7:42:10 AM PDT by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: NYer

Many of the Catholics I have met, can be bested by an 8th-grade Baptist kid who always went to Sunday School, in terms of Bible knowledge.


15 posted on 10/14/2005 7:44:25 AM PDT by ikka
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To: mike182d

Strictly speaking, the Mass according to Sacrosanctum Concilium would be that of the 1965 Missale Romanum. The Novus Ordo is a fabrication drawn up 4-5 years after the close of the Council.

You are correct that Novus Ordo needs to be celebrated as prescribed in the GIRM. The problem, however, lies in the fact that the GIRM allows for too many variations. This is an issue that the Pope Benedict is well aware of and probably plans to address.

In the meantime, the Tridentine Mass at the very least offers the faithful a stable liturgy, something which is sorely lacking in the Novus Ordo, both due to the provisions in the GIRM and in spite of them.


16 posted on 10/14/2005 7:46:33 AM PDT by jrny (Oremus pro Pontifice nostro Benedicto Decimo Sexto.)
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To: mike182d

Mike - Vatican II did not call for a new rite of mass to be created. Paul IV was a weak pope and allowed the bishops with their own agendas to push him into allowing a watered down protestant mass. I know this because I spent time as a lutheran and came back. The Lutheran service(ELCA) is very close to the Paul IV mass. Even the eucharistic prayers are close.
I now attend the indult in Norristown and go to the one in New JErsey from time to time. Believe me, the traditioanl latin mass is better in terms of reverence and theology.


17 posted on 10/14/2005 7:49:33 AM PDT by badabing98
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To: murphE
The New Mass: Inalienable Right or Inferior Rite?

The article is not very persuasive because his entire attack on the Novus Ordo Mass is a straw-man argument and by his own submission concerning the very nature of the Sacred Liturgy leads to conclusion that I don't think any Catholic can believe.

For example:
1. Latin is the official language of the Novus Ordo Mass and only certain parts are to be replaced with the vernacular but only by exception and not the rule.
2. Gregorian Chant and Sacred Polyphany has pride of place in the Novus Ordo Mass and is preferred over all other forms of sacred polyphany.
3. The Tabernacle should always be front and center - in fact one of the topics of discussion at the Synod was to enforce this mandate.
4. Altar rails weren't never meant to be removed.
5. The priest is meant to face East - ad orientem.
6. The current English translations are admittedly hideous and a newer, more accurate and less politically-based, translation is in the works that is truer to the Latin text.
7. Receiving in the hand is by exception only. The practice of receiving on the tongue is still the desired method and even intinction.

8. No one is to be in the Sanctuary except ordained ministers and altar servers when needed.

His attack on the Novus Ordo Mass is an attack on a straw-man - a Novus Ordo Mass destroyed by liberal liturgists and not true to its form. Furthermore, I could argue that the ancient worship in Greek or Aramaic is even more holy than the "vulgar" Latin that the Church accepted in the 4th Century as the language of the Church. By his own reasoning, the Tridentine Mass should be rejected too.

Lastly, the Novus Ordo Mass was created by a Church Council and accepted by a vast majority of Bishops present at the Council. Jesus Christ says of the Church that "the gates of the netherworld will not prevail against it." With the celebration of the holy sacrifice of the Mass as the heart of the entire Catholic/Christian faith and the source of its very life, the "gates of the netherworld" have prevailed against His Church if the whole of a Church Council, infallible in that moment as successors to the Apostles, was able to tarnish, even slightly, the most Sacred act in the whole of the universe.

To criticize the Novus Ordo Mass is to say that Christ lied and that the Church failed to protect what was most Sacred - which was its primary function. You can criticize its abused implementation but you cannot criticize the Novus Ordo Mass without criticizing the whole of the Church and the promise of Jesus Christ.
18 posted on 10/14/2005 7:59:22 AM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: B Knotts
I think the best thing for the Church to do with the liberty is to go back to 1965 and start over with the reform, doing it incrementally and organically this time.

If you have been following the Synod postings, it is evident that the Normative liturgy is drawing in people and many converts, throughout Africa, India and Asia. They are also experiencing a wealth of vocations. Perhaps we need some of their priests to share their joy with us here in the west.

19 posted on 10/14/2005 8:03:23 AM PDT by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: mike182d
4. Altar rails weren't never meant to be removed.

4. Altar rails weren't never meant to be removed.

*sigh* ...its gonna' be a long day.
20 posted on 10/14/2005 8:03:30 AM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: mike182d

Yeah, what he said.

Very well written. Nice critique.

I think we may also include that not every change that is a problem in the Mass is a official change. Just yesterday we had a fellow tell my daughter's CCD class in front of me that kneeling is going out the door, and officially, nobody in europe kneels. I leaned to another friend who also attends Indults and asked, "What GIRM did he read?"


21 posted on 10/14/2005 8:04:18 AM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: mike182d

The article is a comparison of the original Latin text of the Novus Ordo translated into English vs. the text of the TLM translated into English. It is done to show the difference in the prayers of both masses. There is no straw man.


22 posted on 10/14/2005 8:17:11 AM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: ikka
Many of the Catholics I have met, can be bested by an 8th-grade Baptist kid who always went to Sunday School, in terms of Bible knowledge.

True. Fortunately, God does not judge us on our Bible knowledge, but on how we implement His Commandment of Love.

Regards

23 posted on 10/14/2005 8:17:49 AM PDT by jo kus
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To: murphE
Novus Ordo translated into English

That is the straw-man. The ICEL is currently having to develop another translation because of all the errors.

I mean, seriously...how do you get "We believe" out of the Latin Credo. I only took a semester of Latin and even I can tell the difference.
24 posted on 10/14/2005 8:19:53 AM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: mike182d
His attack on the Novus Ordo Mass is an attack on a straw-man

Did you read his whole article?

To criticize the Novus Ordo Mass is to say that Christ lied and that the Church failed to protect what was most Sacred

This of course is a false statement. Pope Benedict XVI himself has criticized the Novus Ordo.

25 posted on 10/14/2005 8:20:21 AM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: mike182d
That is the straw-man. The ICEL is currently having to develop another translation because of all the errors.

He's not using the ICEL translations - you didn't read the article. He deals with the ICEL translations in a different article though.

26 posted on 10/14/2005 8:21:51 AM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: murphE
This of course is a false statement. Pope Benedict XVI himself has criticized the Novus Ordo.

He criticized abuses, not the Mass itself. There's a big difference.
27 posted on 10/14/2005 8:21:52 AM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: murphE

So, you are admitting that the Church, entrusted with the protection of the Sacred as promised by Jesus Christ, messed-up the most Sacred event in the whole of the cosmos?


28 posted on 10/14/2005 8:23:46 AM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: NYer

BTTT!


29 posted on 10/14/2005 8:24:26 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: mike182d
The normative Novus Ordo Mass all but a fiction that is rarely, if ever, seen in a parish. Indeed, in most places if a priest were to attempt to celebrate is as you have laid out he would be immediately bounced. If the bishops wish those who are attached to the Traditional Mass to stop demanding it and accept the Novus Ordo then they, the bishops, should also respect the Novus Ordo AS WRITTEN and both allow and encourage it to be celebrated as a continuation of tradition in the manner that you have outlined. Otherwise, the Traditional Mass movement is being no more disobedient to the wishes of the Church than the bishops themselves.
30 posted on 10/14/2005 8:25:00 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: mike182d
He criticized abuses, not the Mass itself.

Not so, there are threads on this forum that quote his criticisms. Here is one:

To His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI : An Open Letter from Traditional Catholics

but you probably won't read it either, oh well.

31 posted on 10/14/2005 8:25:26 AM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: NYer

**"The problem we have discussed is that many people don't go to Mass, and those that come don't understand -- they go to Communion but not to confession, as if they were immaculate."**

Fantastic quote!


32 posted on 10/14/2005 8:25:33 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: murphE
It is clear, therefore, that this particular rite of the Roman Liturgy is the birth-right of all Roman Catholic priests and faithful..

The Greek/Maronite rite is historically the official birth-rite of all Roman Catholic priests and faithful. The Tridentine Rite is an "innovation" of the 16th Century.
33 posted on 10/14/2005 8:26:59 AM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: mike182d
The Tridentine Rite is an "innovation" of the 16th Century.

Not quite. The Canon itself goes back to at least Pope St. Gregory the Great, perhaps even before that. The other elements were added gradually over the centuries. What Pope St. Pius V did was "standardize" the rite used in the Holy See, and apply it to the rest of the Latin church. Certain other rites, such as the Ambrosian and Mozarbic, are still around.

34 posted on 10/14/2005 8:30:47 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (Blessed Pius IX, pray for us!)
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To: NYer
You have been doing an outstanding job of finding news stories about the Synod. Thank you!

China rejects Pope's invitation for bishops to attend Synod
Trautman on the Synod
Vatican publishes list of special experts and auditors for next Synod
Synod of Bishops to review liturgical issues, emphasize Sunday Mass
CONFIRMED: CHINESE BISHOPS CANNOT ATTEND SYNOD

Bishops meet at Vatican for synod; Communion to Catholic politicians on agenda
Papal Homily at Opening of Synod - "Lord: Help Us to Be Converted!"
Briefing on Synod of Bishops (to the media)
A primer on the October Synod of Bishops in Rome
Top Cardinal Plays Down Priest Shortage (Divorcees to receive communion?)

The First Synod after the Conclave Gets Underway. The Pope Is Being Tested
Ordination of married men is raised at Vatican synod
Bishop Urges Talk of Polticians at Vatican
Abandon Eucharistic doctrine, dissidents urge Synod
Vatican clamps down on information at synod

Bishops Discussing Communion in the Hand - Also Concerned About How the Mass Is Celebrated
Synod Reflects on a Key Ecumenical Question
SYNODUS EPISCOPORUM BULLETIN (Summary of Synod Working Groups - First Session - Oct.5
Archbishop Jan Lenga of Kazakhstan: Restore Tabernacle, Stop Communion in the Hand
"No to General Absolution," Except Rarely, Says Cardinal Re

SYNOD - Report #5: Environment, social justice emerge as eucharistic themes
No ban on gays expected in Vatican document; will advise 'prudential judgement'
Communion in hand versus on tongue gets attention at synod (strange commentary from bishops)
Synod - 07Oct - Married vs Celibate Priests
Synod - 06Oct - The Trinitarian, Marian, and Ecclesiological dimension of the Eucharist

Pope Addresses Synod Unexpectedly
Some bishops say church must reconsider role for married priests
Deja vu: First week of (Vatican) synod follows patterns from past
7 Key Topics Discussed So Far at (Vatican) Synod - Spokesman Assesses 1st Week of Assembly
Eucharistic adoration is key, but also has drawbacks, bishops say

SYNOD OF BISHOPS - 10OCT05 - Intercommunion (with Orthodox Church among topics)
SYNOD OF BISHOPS - 10OCT05 - Participation of the Laity (with music)
Unfit for Priestly Service
Vatican Synod of Bishops - 11OCT05 - Presentations by Anglican and Lutheran Representatives
Vatican Synod of Bishops - 11OCT05 - Presentations by Orthodox Representatives

Bishops to deal with liturgy, lay ministry, death penalty in November
Cardinal Pell: Ending Celibacy Rule Would Be a Blunder
Tridentine Mass "Not a Priority," Says Cardinal Arinze (Vatican Synod)

35 posted on 10/14/2005 8:33:50 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: mike182d
So, you are admitting that the Church, entrusted with the protection of the Sacred as promised by Jesus Christ, messed-up the most Sacred event in the whole of the cosmos?

You accuse me of putting forth a straw man? Next you'll ask me if I admit that I have stopped beating my husband.

Is it possible to have a rational discussion?

36 posted on 10/14/2005 8:35:46 AM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: murphE
First of all, that letter was from Tradionalists BXVI. Beyond mere conjecture on their part, I did not see an actual quote of Pope Benedict's. Give me a quote from Pope Benedict stating that the Novus Ordo Mass itself is flawed, not its improper implementations.

Bottom line is this:
This is from the First Vatican Council, "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church"

"For in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been preserved unblemished, and sacred doctrine been held in honor."

This is you and every anti-Novus Ordo advocate:

"The Apostolic See has not preserved the Catholic religion unblemished."

There's no other way around it. You cannot throw out the Novus Ordo without throwing out the whole of Apostolic authority within the Catholic Church, thereby making you no different than an Anglican. Yes, the Tridentine Rite should be able to be celebrated just like the Maronite Rite, but not at the expense of removing the Novus Ordo. The theological implications of such an action shake the foundation of Catholicism itself.
37 posted on 10/14/2005 8:39:38 AM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: mike182d
"Tradionalists notBXVI"

*slaps forehead* oi vei!
38 posted on 10/14/2005 8:41:07 AM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: Pyro7480
Not quite.

I know. That's why "innovation" was in quotes ;-)
39 posted on 10/14/2005 8:43:42 AM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: mike182d
Is it possible to have a rational discussion? I guess not.

I did not see an actual quote of Pope Benedict's.

You didn't look hard enough.

40 posted on 10/14/2005 8:44:28 AM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: ikka; Dominick; mike182d; Salvation; Convert from ECUSA
Many of the Catholics I have met, can be bested by an 8th-grade Baptist kid who always went to Sunday School, in terms of Bible knowledge.

This is not surprising. Before the printing press, Christians (who were all Catholic), learned Scripture through the Mass. It came as a great surprise to Scott Hahn when he attended a Catholic Mass for the first time.

* * * * *

"There I stood, a man incognito, a Protestant minister in plainclothers, slipping into the back of a Catholic chapel in Milwaukee to witness my first Mass. Curiosity had driven me there, and I still didn't feel sure that it was healthy curiosity. Studying the writings of the earliest Christians, I'd found countless references to "the liturgy," "the Eucharist," "the sacrifice." For those first Christians, the Bible - the book I loved above all - was incomprehensible apart from the event that today's Catholics called "the Mass."

"I wanted to understand the early Christians; yet I'd had no experience of liturgy. So I persuaded myself to go and see, as a sort of academic exercise, but vowing all along that I would neither kneel nor take part in idolatry."

I took my seat in the shadows, in a pew at the very back of that basement chapel. Before me were a goodly number of worshipers, men and women of all ages. Their genuflections impressed me, as did their apparent concentration in prayer. Then a bell rang, and they all stood as the priest emerged from a door beside the altar.

Unsure of myself, I remained seated. For years, as an evangelical Calvinist, I'd been trained to believe that the Mass was the ultimate sacrilege a human could commit. The Mass, I had been taught, was a ritual that purported to "resacrifice Jesus Christ." So I would remain an observer. I would stay seated, with my Bible open beside me.

As the Mass moved on, however, something hit me. My Bible wasn't just beside me. It was before me - in the words of the Mass! One line was from Isaiah, another from Psalms, another from Paul. The experience was overwhelming. I wanted to stop everything and shout, "Hey, can I explain what's happening from Scripture? This is great!" Still, I maintained my observer status. I remained on the sidelines until I heard the priest pronounce the words of consecration: "This is My body . . . This is the cup of My blood."

Then I felt all my doubt drain away. As I saw the priest raise that white host, I felt a prayer surge from my heart in a whisper: "My Lord and my God. That's really you!"

I was what you might call a basket case from that point. I couldn't imagine a greater excitement than what those words had worked upon me. Yet the experience was intensified just a moment later, when I heard the congregation recite: "Lamb of God . . . Lamb of God . . . Lamb of God," and the priest respond, "This is the Lamb of God . . ." as he raised the host. In less than a minute, the phrase "Lamb of God" had rung out four times. From long years of studying the Bible, I immediately knew where I was. I was in the Book of Revelation, where Jesus is called the Lamb no less than twenty-eight times in twenty-two chapters. I was at the marriage feast that John describes at the end of that very last book of the Bible. I was before the throne of heaven, where Jesus is hailed forever as the Lamb. I wasn't ready for this, though - I was at Mass!

* * * * *

Throughout the year, Catholics hear Scripture through the Daily and Weekly Mass readings. In the span of 3 years, they have "heard and read" the entire Bible! Most Catholics do not feel a need to quote the Bible. And that is why, when confronted by a Baptist or Evangelical, they are easily persuaded to believe they are scripturally lacking. ( How I led Catholics Out of the Church )

I just wish the Baptists, Evangelicals and those from other protestant denominations, had a better appreciation of how much Scripture Catholics don't realize they actually know.

41 posted on 10/14/2005 8:50:58 AM PDT by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: mike182d
Even the Tridentine Mass was a radical "change" from the celebration of the first Christians.

If it had been imposed three years after the Ascension it would be, however it was merely the formalization of the liturgies that had evolved organically over time. The idea that primitive = pure is a modernist fallacy i.e. Rousseau's "noble savage".

The Tridentine liturgy was a mature form of worship and the Novus Ordo was a radical departure from it, imposed on Catholics over a very short period of time.

I'm sorry that you do not understand this.

42 posted on 10/14/2005 8:54:32 AM PDT by TradicalRC (Benedicamus Domino.)
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To: murphE
"You didn't look hard enough."

I've spent 15 minutes reading and sifting through that gratiutously wordy letter and cannot find anything. There is nothing Benedict XVI said that advocates of the Norvus Ordo Mass, such as myself, wouldn't say about the current state of the Liturgy.

Yes, the Liturgy has fallen...but not because its a Norvus Ordo mass.

Yes, the Tridentine Rite should not be surpressed...but not by the removal of the Novus Ordo Mass.

You seem to be putting words in Benedict's mouth. Please provide me a quote from Benedict where he actually blames the Novus Ordo Mass itself and not the horrendous abuses.
43 posted on 10/14/2005 8:56:45 AM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: NYer
Before I say what I'm about to let me set out my position. I have issues with both rites of Mass; Novus Ordo and Tridentine. Just my .02, not authoritative and a purely personal take.

I have a question. Why are the readings in the Tridentine Mass read a) in Latin and b) facing away fom the people?

Now I have a fair idea of the theological reasons for the orientation of the altar why the priest faces the altar and away from the people during the Offerertory, Canon and consecration of the Tidentine Rite, and it makes plenty sense. However, the readings puzzle me.

Surely the readings are the Word of God and are addressed to the people. That being the case, they should be read facing the people and in a language which they can understand, yes? If I open my Bible and read the Gospels, I do so in my own language. I don't read them in Latin. Surely the same should apply at Mass and moreover, they should be proclaimed towards those to whom they are directed.

This is one of my main problems with the Tridentine Rite. Only one Epistle, in Latin and "mumblemumblemumble"....back wall of Church.

In my opinion, the way the readings were/are treated at Tridentine Masses had a lot to do with the widespread Catholic indifference and almost illiteracy with regard to the Scriptures and the common cliche among Protestants and even many Catholics that we don't bother ourselves with that "Scripture stuff."

So......when the appropriate Vatican Curia calls me........y'all are going to be getting a hybrid Mass, with Novus Ordo Liturgy of the Word including two readings plus a Gospel and Traditional Eucharistic Liturgy, with altar rails and Latin and stuff......

That is all. Carry on.

44 posted on 10/14/2005 8:57:04 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: mike182d
When the Novus Ordo Mass is celebrated strickly according to how Sancrosanctum Concilium and the GIRM dictate, it is nothing like a Protestant service.

Lovely, when THAT happens, let me know. I am familiar with Sacrosanctum Concilium and have been to several Novus Ordo Masses at several different parishes. I have yet to find ONE that honors the articles that reference latin and Gregorian chant being retained in the Mass.

45 posted on 10/14/2005 8:59:23 AM PDT by TradicalRC (Benedicamus Domino.)
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To: TradicalRC
The Tridentine liturgy was a mature form of worship and the Novus Ordo was a radical departure from it, imposed on Catholics over a very short period of time.

Explain to me how the Novus Ordo Mass is a "radical" departure? There is nothing contrary to 2000 years of Catholic teaching present in the Novus Ordo Mass. If you're supposing there is heresy, then you're saying that "the gates of the netherworld" have prevailed against the Church.

I'm sorry you don't understand that.
46 posted on 10/14/2005 8:59:25 AM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: TradicalRC
I have yet to find ONE that honors the articles that reference latin and Gregorian chant being retained in the Mass.

It is difficult, I agree. But you cannot blame the Novus Ordo Mass for the Vatican's inability to strictly enforce it.
47 posted on 10/14/2005 9:00:51 AM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: ikka
Many of the Catholics I have met, can be bested by an 8th-grade Baptist kid who always went to Sunday School, in terms of Bible knowledge.

Yeah, but they have an abridged edition.;-)

48 posted on 10/14/2005 9:02:17 AM PDT by TradicalRC (Benedicamus Domino.)
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To: marshmallow
So......when the appropriate Vatican Curia calls me........y'all are going to be getting a hybrid Mass, with Novus Ordo Liturgy of the Word including two readings plus a Gospel and Traditional Eucharistic Liturgy, with altar rails and Latin and stuff......

I could live with that. And that, by the way, is all that Vatican II called for.

I have seen some interest in the Missal of 1965 as the true reform Mass of Vatican II. I think that this, with the new Lectionary, should be explored by those in authority in the Church.

49 posted on 10/14/2005 9:02:46 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: marshmallow
This is one of my main problems with the Tridentine Rite. Only one Epistle, in Latin and "mumblemumblemumble"....back wall of Church.

Because, marshmallow, people preferred it when others would not be able to understand anything that was going on so opted to say rosaries during the entire Liturgy. :-)

It begs the question: Sure, more people were there in attendence, but were they really there in the celebration of the Mass?
50 posted on 10/14/2005 9:03:24 AM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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