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Drawing the Line for Mormons: A Closer Look at the LDS Church
Catholic Exchange ^ | October 17, 2005 | Mary Kochan

Posted on 10/17/2005 6:28:59 AM PDT by NYer

Mormons want you to believe that they are "Christians" and that their church, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints," is just another Christian denomination. Mormons themselves believe that they are Christians and that their church is the only true church. There is even a move among Mormons to shorten the name of their church to simply "The Church of Jesus Christ."


In This Article...
America's Lost Tribe
Jesus: Brother of Lucifer?
When Talking to a Mormon

America's Lost Tribe

Their founder, Joseph Smith, claimed to have been told in a vision regarding the Christian churches that God "forbade me to join with any of them" and "all their creeds were an abomination in his sight." It is hence Mormons (not Christians) who established, from the beginning of their group, an antagonistic relationship with those Christian groups already in existence. In recent years Mormons have sought to downplay this antagonism, and that testimony of Joseph Smith has received a new whitewashing in the current Newsweek cover story "The Mormon Odyssey" which relates the story like this: "God and Jesus appeared and delivered a startling message: he shouldn't join any of the churches of the world, for they had long ago fallen away from Christ's true Gospel."

In one sense clearly, Mormons are Christian. If you were going to categorize Mormons according to world-religion criteria, you would have to say they are Christians. World religions are the major belief systems found around the world that frame a tradition of enough cultural richness to support a civilization. The major world religions are Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Confucianism and Islam. Clearly Mormonism fits into the broad "Christian" category. And so would many other groups whose relationship with the wider Christian world is antagonistic: Jehovah's Witnesses, Branch Davidians, Oneness Pentecostals, etc.

It may be that in the not-too-distant future, we will have to categorize Mormonism as a separate world religion. It is the fifth-largest religious group now in the US, having just passed the Lutherans, and the LDS are experiencing rapid expansion in other countries. In many ways its development parallels that of Islam. Both religions were founded by prophets who claimed to have been visited by an angel. They borrow heavily from Judaism and Christianity, yet reject their central tenets. Both rely upon strange revisions of history. The Koran identifies Mary, the mother of Jesus, with Miriam the sister of Moses, who lived over fourteen centuries earlier. The Book of Mormon makes numerous claims regarding the peoples of the Americas (including the idea that the American Indians descended from a lost tribe of ancient Israelites) that have been refuted by history, archeology and anthropology. Both Islam and Mormonism claim that where their sacred writings contradict the Bible, the Christian and Jewish scriptures have been corrupted.

It might be argued that Mormons have the right to say that they are "Christians" and no one should deny what they say about themselves. It is possible, however, for us to respect their right to call themselves whatever they wish without feeling compelled to validate that claim ourselves. This is complicated by the fact that to many Catholics, Mormonism seems no more strange than the Baptist faith, or that of any other Protestant denomination. In part this is because Mormons themselves generally use the language and terminology common to (especially Protestant) Christians. In their initial approach to you, they will do all they can to hide or gloss over the distinctive beliefs of their church. Statements of Mormon belief sound so much like statements of the Christian faith that many Catholics and Protestants are quite willing to recognize Mormons as "Christians," not merely in the world-religion sense, but in the sense in which we Catholics recognize Protestant Christians as our "separated brethren." This is a serious error with two major consequences.

First, Christians (including Catholics) are misled into the Mormon church where they are indoctrinated in a religion which rejects the central doctrines of the Christian faith, resulting in them bringing their children up as non-Christians. Second, Christians embrace Mormons as fellow Christians instead of evangelizing them.

In order to protect Christians from this deception and to help Mormons learn the truth, we must understand how Mormon doctrine differs from the historic Christian faith that we share with Protestants. To do this, we will examine first what Mormons say, then how they define the terms they are using and how that differs from the Christian faith. Finally we provide a biblical, Christian response and suggestions for how to discuss these things with a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

The Central Question: Who is God?

What Mormons will say they believe about God:

  1. We believe in God the Father who is the Father of Jesus Christ.
  2. We worship God the Father and pray to him in Jesus's name.
  3. Jesus is our Savior.
Why the Mormon God the Father is not the Christian God the Father:
  1. "God the Father" to a Mormon is not God the Father, first Person of the Holy Trinity, Whom Christians confess. He is one of many gods.
  2. The Mormon worships God the Father because He is the god of this planet, but other planets have other gods equal to or even greater than God the Father.
  3. The Mormon "God the Father" had a father and was once a man on a planet who worshipped his own Father God. He was subsequently exalted to godhood. He has a physical, human body.
  4. It is the hope of the male Mormon to progress to the point where he too will be a god like God the Father and be ruling over his own planet.
  5. The Mormons have a saying: "What man is, God once was; what God is, man will become." This is polytheism.
Christian answer:
  1. The God of the Bible is the Creator and God of all the universe, of all worlds, not just our planet. He made the heavens and the earth; there is no other God; there never has been any other God, nor will there ever be another. (Gn 1:1; Is 43;10; 44:6, 8, 24)
  2. God the Father was never a man.
  3. You will never be God.
  4. True Christianity, like Judaism, is monotheistic. As our creed states "We believe in one God."

Jesus: Brother of Lucifer?

Why the Mormon Jesus is not the Christian Jesus:

  1. The Mormon Jesus is the spirit-brother of Lucifer (Satan). They were both born in heaven by God the Father's union with one of his many spirit wives.
  2. According to Mormon teaching, when it was time for Jesus to come down to earth, God the Father sent down one of his spirit wives from heaven to be born as a woman, Mary. Then he came down and had physical, marital relations with her in order for her to give birth to a human body inhabited by Jesus coming from heaven. This is a denial of the Virgin Birth.
Christian answer:
  1. Since God the Father does not have a physical human body, He did not impregnate Mary by a physical union (2 Chr 6:18; Jn 4:24).
  2. Jesus became incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit and was born of the Virgin Mary (Mt 1:23; Lk 2:30-35).
  3. God the Father does not have a wife or wives in heaven.
  4. Jesus is the eternally-begotten Son of God, one in being with the Father (Jn 1:1-18).
  5. He is not the older brother of Lucifer.
  6. He is the older brother, as well as Lord and God, of those born again by water and Spirit, God's adopted children (Jn 3:3-17; Rom 8:14-17, 29).
Why the Mormon doctrine of man is not the Christian doctrine of man:
  1. According to Mormonism, all human beings existed as spirit children of God and his wife in heaven before coming to earth.
  2. They grow to spirit "adulthood" serving God (even fighting in heavenly battles), and are then sent to earth to be babies of human parents.
  3. The earthly life is their opportunity to become gods themselves, like their heavenly Father, by "obeying the laws of the Gospel" just as the god of this planet once did.
Christian answer:
  1. There is no biblical support for the idea that human beings were spirit children of God in heaven before coming to earth.
  2. Jesus was unique in being a human being with a pre-human existence (Jn 1:18; 3:13, 31; 8:23, 58).
  3. Jesus took on human nature at the Incarnation. God became man — not the other way around. His human nature was glorified at His Resurrection.
  4. We will be like God in that we will have the same kind of glorified human nature which Jesus possesses, not in becoming gods and ruling planets ourselves (1 Jn 3:3; Rom 8:22, Phil 3:20-21).
  5. While heaven is the presence of God with unfettered communion, the distinction between God and creatures remains (Rv 5:13, 14).

What is Salvation?

What Mormons will say they believe about salvation:

  1. All are redeemed by the Savior's self-sacrifice, from the consequences of the fall.
  2. Immortality comes as a free gift, by the grace of God alone, without works.
  3. Jesus is our Savior.
Why Mormon salvation is not Christian salvation:
  1. According to Mormonism, everyone and everything — all of creation — has been redeemed and therefore "saved."
  2. This salvation gains, for all human beings, a physical resurrection only — not eternal life. Eternal life is not "salvation"; it is "exaltation."
  3. If you ask a Mormon if he is saved (per Evangelical parlance), he will answer yes.
  4. If you ask him if he believes you are saved, he will answer yes. This confuses Christians who do not understand that being "saved" and gaining "eternal life" are not the same thing in Mormon thinking.
  5. It is further confused by the Mormon distinction between "immortality" (salvation to physical resurrection) and "eternal life" (exaltation to godhood).
  6. The Mormons have a saying: "Salvation without exaltation is damnation."
  7. Therefore, a Mormon can, with a straight face, tell you he believes you are "saved," while he also believes you are damned.
Christian answer:
  1. We define salvation according to what we are saved from. We are saved from sin and from the wages of sin — death.
  2. To be saved from sin is to be justified and sanctified. To be saved from death is to receive eternal life (Rom 6:22, 23).
  3. Being saved, justified, sanctified and given eternal life by the grace of God are all things which are interconnected in the Scriptures. There is no biblical basis for separating them (Rom 5).
  4. Seeking exaltation is contrary to the spirit of Christ. We are rather to humble ourselves, recognize our sinfulness and call upon the Lord for mercy and forgiveness (Js 4:6-10).
Why the Mormon hope is not the Christian hope:
  1. It is the hope of the male Mormon to progress to the point where he will be a god like God the Father and be ruling over his own planet. This is "exaltation," and depends upon the Mormon "Plan of Eternal Progression."
  2. The hope of Mormon females depends upon their being married, in a temple ceremony, to a Mormon male who achieves exaltation.
  3. Mormon women married to non-Mormons ("Gentiles") can arrange for a "temple sealing" (marriage by proxy) to a Mormon male after their death. This is to assure that in eternity they are considered to have been married to and produced their children from a Mormon husband so that they and their children can be exalted.
  4. Mormon males expect to produce offspring in heaven with their mate(s), offspring who will subsequently be sent to populate their planet and achieve their own exaltation to godhood and so on and so on…
Christian answer:
  1. The God of the Bible is the Creator and God of all the universe, of all worlds, not just our planet. He made man for Himself and in His image to be in communion with God and enter into the love of the Holy Trinity.
  2. When man fell into sin and marred the image of God in his own being, the second person of the Trinity became incarnate — taking human nature to Himself.
  3. He then did what He could not do in the form of God: He died to save us from sin and death, so that we could come back into communion with God and share the love of the Holy Trinity. Our hope is to be with God, not to be God (Gn 1-3; Phil 2:5-11).

When Talking to a Mormon

Remember that the Mormon is trained to hide the difference between his beliefs and yours and to present himself as a Christian. However, his belief that he is a Christian is sincere, and his efforts to hide the distinctives of the Mormon religion are pursued in his desire to get you to accept Mormon teachings.

Do not allow glib, surface responses to go unchallenged; press the Mormon to define the Christian-sounding words he is using.

Define your own terms also. Draw the contrast for the Mormon. Calmly and clearly insist that what you and he believe about the nature of God, the identity of Jesus, the nature of man, salvation and eternal life are different. To pretend otherwise is dishonest.

Appeal to his honesty and sense of fairness. You might say, "Look, we are not going to get anywhere unless we are honest with each other. Without making any statement about which one of us is right, can't we just acknowledge that we do not worship the same God?" or "Can't we just acknowledge that we do not have the same hope for the future?" Help the Mormon to consider the logical and philosophical problems with the Plan of Eternal Progression.

If God had a Father and He had a Father and so on — then who was the first God? Mormons say it is an "infinite regression." But since there is no way to cross an infinite distance or pass an infinite amount of time, there would be no way to get to "now" and to "us" from an infinite past. Time has to have had a beginning and it did. It began with the creation "of all things seen and unseen" by God. Mormons say that God is omnipotent (almighty, all-powerful), yet they say there are many Gods. There cannot be more than one omnipotent being, so the Mormon conception of God is shrunken and distorted.

A big selling point of the Mormon hope for the future is the idea that families will be together eternally. But if Mormons become Gods of planets and then their children become Gods of other planets — how do the children and parents get together? Can a God leave his planet unattended while he goes to a celestial family reunion? This Mormon selling point would be diminished if we Christians were more vocal about our hope for the "new heavens and new earth" in which we know one another in the all the relationships of our present lives, only in glory (2 Pt 3:13; Rv 21:1).

Welcome the participation of Mormons in causes which we share for the common good: strengthening family life, fighting pornography and abortion, fostering the virtue of patriotism. We honor each Mormon as a person who desires what is genuinely good for himself, his family and his society — and when we share the truths of the Christian faith with him.



TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; Ministry/Outreach; Other Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: bible; christian; islam; ldschurch; letsallhatemormons; mormon; zaq
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About the Author: After growing up as a third-generation Jehovah's Witness, Mary Kochan worked her way backwards through the Protestant Reformation to enter the Catholic Church on Trinity Sunday, 1996. Mary has done extensive work and research on the problem of religious cults, writing and speaking to live and radio audiences and answering questions about all aspects of cultic behavior. She is married to Daniel and is a member of St. Theresa parish in Douglasville, Georgia.
1 posted on 10/17/2005 6:29:01 AM PDT by NYer
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To: american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...
After growing up as a third-generation Jehovah's Witness, Mary Kochan worked her way backwards through the Protestant Reformation to enter the Catholic Church

Marcus Grodi's round table discussion on EWTN last night, was about the Jehovah's Witnesses. Hope this author writes another piece on them.

2 posted on 10/17/2005 6:31:08 AM PDT by NYer (ôSocialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: NYer

Well, yeah but.......

They get to wear the magical underpants.

How can we compete with that?


3 posted on 10/17/2005 6:32:25 AM PDT by WhiteGuy (Vote for gridlock)
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To: NYer
Many of the GRPL got into major trouble for criticizing or disagreeing with LDS members.


If you want a Google GMail account, FReepmail me.
They're going fast!

4 posted on 10/17/2005 6:47:28 AM PDT by rdb3 (Have you ever stopped to think, but forgot to start again?)
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To: WhiteGuy
Call me sacrilegious if you must, but to me the most likely scenario is that we were seeded here on this planet by travelers from space.

They may have come back to check on and jerk w/ us several times in our past; thereby explaining a lot of what we consider "scripture" - no matter your religion.

The Mormon beliefs seem to me to be yet another explanation of that. In that respect, they'll get to be a "god" when they to can go off and seed another planet.

When you read the bible, its hard not to view the God of the old testament as a completely different personality from Jesus of the new testament. (Old God: "Kill the heathens, women and children included", "Burn me some animals". New God: "Its all about the healing")

So various guys visited; some nice, some not so nice.

Its the only scenario that makes sense.

I always think about that when I hear about ID too. A lot of what we see may well have been designed - but by whom?

Count me as agnostic.
5 posted on 10/17/2005 6:52:53 AM PDT by Pessimist
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To: Pessimist
... we were seeded here on this planet by travelers from space...

This idea takes more "faith" than a whole room full of evangelical Christians and a whole convention of evolutionary biologists combined.

6 posted on 10/17/2005 7:04:03 AM PDT by kidd
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To: NYer
Mormons want you to believe that they are "Christians" and that their church, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints," is just another Christian denomination.

Harry Turtledove, (author of alternative history fiction) has a special place in his heart for the Latter Day Saints.

In his stories, he sends in government troops every third chapter in order to quell and quash the ever ongoing Mormon insurrections. The Saints, like the Muslims, continually agitate for sovereignity and self determination. According to Turtledoves fictional narratives, the Mormons had to rebuild the Salt Lake City temple several times within the space of once book.

7 posted on 10/17/2005 7:05:39 AM PDT by i.l.e. (Tagline - this space for sale....)
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To: Pessimist

Yikes!!


8 posted on 10/17/2005 7:11:00 AM PDT by jackv
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To: kidd

"This idea takes more "faith" than a whole room full of evangelical Christians and a whole convention of evolutionary biologists combined."

Not really. The same amount at most. There's no proof for either belief.

Hey, this brings up a question I never thought about before though: Where do Christians stand on whether or not we are the only inhabited planet in the universe?


9 posted on 10/17/2005 7:12:31 AM PDT by Pessimist
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To: NYer
A woman told me her perspective on power. Power corrupts men to either become a Hitler or Hefner. The Mormon cult attraction is greater for men (given the fleshly desire for multiple sex partners) and it's a burden on wives (and the politics suffered in the Mormon family for women who don't produce). Abraham had a similar problem when he produced a son from Hagar instead of Sarah. Marriage must be one man and one woman. Anything else is chaos.

The Mormon heresy is no different than the first sin issued by a fallen angel, Satan: (Gen 3:5) "No, God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods who know what is good and what is bad."

This continual lie dominates the worst heresies throughout human history from original sin, to Arianism, to present "new age" cults that devolves human personhood into some sort of recyclable life force (as if we can lick a 9 volt battery for communion).

The temptation for the "tree of knowledge" and the mysteries of evil is that it doesn't require the Passion of martyrdom or lifelong physical labor to work for Salvation. This tempting wickedness rewards sinful behavior with multiple sex partners and frees the violent to force his hand on his neighbors when they don't submit to such domination. The spiritual temptation, as the cult schisms further from Truth, is that a soul sees all disciplined desires as a trap keeping it from fleshly happiness. Eventually, for the cult elite, anything goes. Corruption becomes complete, debauchery is rationalized, subordinates are fleeced, murder removes witnesses to crimes, and then the congregation is served cool aid.

I wouldn't be a good candidate to nurture a change from one born out of the Christian Life. God Bless those who can speak honestly with non-Christian cults and show them the Light. I think I'll have to post a copy of Mary Kochan's article at the door for wandering non-Christian salesmen rather than waste time debating (and doing a bad job of it).
10 posted on 10/17/2005 7:12:56 AM PDT by SaltyJoe (A mother's sorrowful heart and personal sacrifice redeems her lost child's soul.)
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To: Pessimist

"Where do Christians stand on whether or not we are the only inhabited planet in the universe?"

We should prepare for war against the planet Mars. Why do you think it's named after the "god" of war. /sarcasm

Personally, I think the universe is mankind's playground. The stars are just pin pricks of light for use to use as celestial navigation. I view any spiritual and intelligent creature outside the human race with great suspicion until it's determined that it's "of God". E.T. is the devil. T.I. from the abyss is the devil. The Virgin and the Eucharist is our pillars to moor our ship.


11 posted on 10/17/2005 7:17:24 AM PDT by SaltyJoe (A mother's sorrowful heart and personal sacrifice redeems her lost child's soul.)
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To: Pessimist
I tried the "scientific explanation" route as a Biochem major. I am a fallen Catholic and was like you an agnostic ... for awhile..... but as I got older and saw life/death and thought about things such as life, the universe and the shape of my daughters ear while sitting on a beach.... I became a Christian. A very lost Christian... and have tried to find my way.

It seems that the more I try to live as God's cheerful servant, the more of a sinner I realize that I am.

If you'd like a good start into the reasoned approach to Christianity may I recommend C.S. Lewis "Mere Christianity".... It's so strange to have somebody enumerate my beliefs and doubts so clearly. He has a reasoned approach and has helped me greatly.

I don't expect you to do this but it is my hope that at least somebody that is searching for God reads this and gives it a look see.

of course that's only my opinion....... and I could be wrong.

12 posted on 10/17/2005 7:18:32 AM PDT by Dick Vomer (liberals suck......... but it depends on what your definition of the word "suck" is.)
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To: Pessimist
the most likely scenario is that we were seeded here on this planet by travelers from space.

And these folks would agree with you.

George Nouhry would love to find someone, anyone with solid evidence that this planet has been 'seeded' by aliens. All speculation ... but he keeps hoping, like you. Aliens are so much more believable than a loving God.

13 posted on 10/17/2005 7:22:04 AM PDT by NYer (ôSocialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: Pessimist

There's solid proof against alien visitors (the ol' speed of light limitation bugaboo).

For those Christians who interpret Genesis literally, life on other planets may or may not present a problem, depending on how strictly the early Genesis passages are read.

For those Christians who view Genesis as a representation that God is the Creator and that humans are His greatest creation, life on other planets is a scientific curiosity but does not conflict with their beliefs whatsoever.


14 posted on 10/17/2005 7:29:57 AM PDT by kidd
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To: i.l.e.
Harry Turtledove, (author of alternative history fiction) has a special place in his heart for the Latter Day Saints.

I read his book, American Front, from the Great War series. The Mormon rebels also had a habit of allowing troops to pass them so they can plug them in the back, and fought with tenacity to the last man, woman and child. Just ordered book two of the WWI trilogy, got some catching up to do with possible history.
15 posted on 10/17/2005 7:44:17 AM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: kidd

"There's solid proof against alien visitors (the ol' speed of light limitation bugaboo)."

And pre Einstein, that wasn't even known. So are your really so sure that - say 500 hundred years from now - that knowledge won't be overturned too? Even if it isn't, what about suspended animation, etc.

Consider this: Given our rate of advancement (and assuming we don't blow ourselves up by then), at some point might we not be able to seed another planet with life? If so - and given the countless numbers of galaxies, solar systems and planets out there - might someone else not have done the same thing to us already?

Is it the Christian belief that God will step in and specifically prevent us from doing that in our future?


16 posted on 10/17/2005 7:45:25 AM PDT by Pessimist
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To: NYer

"George Nouhry would love to find someone, anyone with solid evidence that this planet has been 'seeded' by aliens. All speculation ... but he keeps hoping, like you"

On the contrary. I have no such hope. In fact I think that if anyone ever did find categorical proof, they seriously might consider keeping a lid on it. Imagine what would happen to mankind if it were faced with that realization.

Right or wrong, religion is definetely a usueful moral contstruct.

Don't get me wron. I personally have no idea whether my theory is correct or whether religion (pick one) is. Unlike me, you may believe that you "know", but I think what you're really saying is you "believe".


17 posted on 10/17/2005 7:53:41 AM PDT by Pessimist
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To: Pessimist

Nin.Hir.Sag? Enki? Is that you? ;>


18 posted on 10/17/2005 7:57:56 AM PDT by Eastbound
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To: Pessimist
And pre Einstein, that wasn't even known. So are your really so sure that - say 500 hundred years from now - that knowledge won't be overturned too? Even if it isn't, what about suspended animation, etc.

Like I said before...this idea takes a LOT of "faith".

It is the Christian belief that God has given mankind dominion over the Earth (Genesis). It is also the Christian belief that with God, anything is possible (Jesus). IOW - God could intercede, but don't count on it.

19 posted on 10/17/2005 7:58:27 AM PDT by kidd
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To: SaltyJoe
Funny you should mention that . . .


20 posted on 10/17/2005 8:07:50 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: kidd

You are essentially wrong.

You overlook that God allowed this creation, that he knew the total future details of, to proceed.


21 posted on 10/17/2005 8:10:29 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: xzins

You are correct.


22 posted on 10/17/2005 8:12:50 AM PDT by kidd
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To: Pessimist
Call me sacrilegious if you must, but to me the most likely scenario is that we were seeded here on this planet by travelers from space.

That chariot of the god's stuff is so 80s. Don't you know that we are all cosmic tourists that willed ourselves to be born here just for the adventure.

23 posted on 10/17/2005 8:34:01 AM PDT by Between the Lines (Be careful how you live your life, it may be the only gospel anyone reads.)
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To: NYer

Kindly explain why posting this sort of article is an expression of good Christian values?

Or, does dragging others down make you feel more secure?


24 posted on 10/17/2005 8:42:00 AM PDT by Doohickey (If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice...I will choose freewill.)
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To: Pessimist
The Catholic Church doesn't have any teaching, one way or the other, on other planets being inhabited with intelligent life. We neither endorse it nor rule it out.

The Catholic Church does teach, however, the existence of bodiless spiritual entities, both good ones and bad ones. Though they are not physical, they have the power to "organize" a physical appearance. I have no doubt that false scriptures (Koran, Book of Mormon, what have you) and false apparitions (some of the strange "Marian" apparitions --- not endorsed by the Church ---which produced false prophecies and disobedience) may well have involved rebellious spiritual entities who successfully deceived the credulous.

25 posted on 10/17/2005 9:07:35 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Live and Let Live)
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To: Doohickey

?????


26 posted on 10/17/2005 9:09:45 AM PDT by It's me
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To: Doohickey
Kindly explain why posting this sort of article is an expression of good Christian values?

This article provides clear information about the Mormon Church. Ecumenically, it is important to have a clear understanding of other denominations.

Or, does dragging others down make you feel more secure?

How does this article drag anyone down?

27 posted on 10/17/2005 9:16:57 AM PDT by NYer (ôSocialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: Doohickey; NYer
1 Corinthians 13: 6, "(Love) does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth."

By the authority of Christ, Himself, the Church must define what is of God and what is not. Mormons may parallel Christian values, but the fruit of the LDS Church is not in Communion with Christ's teachings or with the Covenant of the Old Testament.

"Or, does dragging others down make you feel more secure?"

Are your feelings hurt? Did you expect a reverse of reason from Christians? With words like that, chances are you'll get a better audience with Saint Michael.

Concerning the accusation of "dragging" down others, I've been pitted against religious salesmen who attempt interrupt my time to turn me against my Christian faith. The experience is far worse a drag on my life than the time I volunteer to look at a web site.

You can go toe to toe with a militant Catholic; or, you can read, not like what you see, and switch to a different article. For centuries, Christians have been tolerating unpopularity from others far worse than a rejecting democratic society--you can tolerate reasonable criticism too.
28 posted on 10/17/2005 9:18:58 AM PDT by SaltyJoe (A mother's sorrowful heart and personal sacrifice redeems her lost child's soul.)
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To: Doohickey
"Or, does dragging others down make you feel more secure?"

Interesting question. Seems that it's difficult to embark on a spiritual journey without dragging some baggage with you. And it's the baggage that aborts the journey.

'What'cha got in the bag, initiate?'
'Oh, just a couple of books on who I should condemn.'
'They are pretty heavy, lad. Heavy enough to sink your boat.'
'Hmmm. What do you suggest?'
'Are you a good swimmer?'
'The best! Olympic medals! See? I always wear them.'
'Your medals will attract the sharks.'
'I see. Can I wear my T-Shirt that says, 'My religion is better than your religion?' 'No. Your religion is not going to save you.'
'What about my Tux? Can I bring it?'
'Filthy rags!'
'How 'bout my Harley boots?'
'I'll make that one exception. Come aboard!'

29 posted on 10/17/2005 9:28:13 AM PDT by Eastbound
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To: AnAmericanMother

BRAVA!


30 posted on 10/17/2005 9:35:00 AM PDT by Maeve (Giving God what's God's leaves little for Caesar.)
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To: rdb3
I once read that when you sign up for g mail, google has a right to read the content of your e mails that you send and receive.
31 posted on 10/17/2005 9:37:44 AM PDT by Coleus ("Woe unto him that call evil good and good evil"-- Isaiah 5:20-21)
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To: WhiteGuy

They get to wear the magical underpants. >>

I heard about that, something that they have to wear a certain type of underwear. I wonder how this custom came about.


32 posted on 10/17/2005 9:38:44 AM PDT by Coleus ("Woe unto him that call evil good and good evil"-- Isaiah 5:20-21)
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To: NYer; RepubMommy
George Nouhry is a Catholic, I wonder how he can believe that aliens crated this world and implanted it with humans. Or is it that as a radio host he just goes along with his guests and ensures people call in. FYI Art Bell, worked at ITT in Nutley.
33 posted on 10/17/2005 9:41:30 AM PDT by Coleus ("Woe unto him that call evil good and good evil"-- Isaiah 5:20-21)
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To: NYer
I have a friend who joined the lds church for about a yr. and this is where I learned a bit about it.. they do believe that there are 3 separate gods, they are made of flesh, and that god the father has parents, and when you die, you can either live in "heaven" with god the father, or the son or the holy spirit, depending on how you lived your life, living with god the father would be the better of the three. Also, when you die, you live with your family, and that the more children you have the better.

but what happens if you are widowed and you remarry and have more kids and what happens if one of the spouses gets sent to hell or to heaven with god the holy spirit, while you live with god the father? It's a bit confusing. He didn't get to the point of wearing special underwear nor did he go to the special temple which is supposed to resemble heaven, where you need an ID card to get in.

I understand the BSA has a special handbook just for mormon scouts too..

34 posted on 10/17/2005 9:47:40 AM PDT by Coleus ("Woe unto him that call evil good and good evil"-- Isaiah 5:20-21)
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To: Coleus
A former manager is a high ranking Mormon and now resides in Salt Lake City. He loved to engage Christians in religious discussion. Those conversations pointed out my poor grasp of catholic catechesis. But, as the author or the above article notes, my boss carefully shielded their true beliefs from me, positing the Mormon faith as christian.

As for George Nhoury, he truly believes in aliens.

35 posted on 10/17/2005 9:58:00 AM PDT by NYer (ôSocialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: rdb3
Many of the GRPL got into major trouble for criticizing or disagreeing with LDS members.

I've lost count.

36 posted on 10/17/2005 10:18:07 AM PDT by Gamecock (Crystal meth is not a fruit of the Spirit.)
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To: Pessimist
There is no Catholic doctrine which would find anything objectionable in visiting, colonizing, or even "seeding" other planets.

I realize you asked about "Christian," rather than specifically "Catholic" teachings, but I'm answering in terms of Catholic because (1) with the Orthodox, the Catholics are the oldest historic Christian Church, and (2) unlike many Christian denominations, the Catholic Church has a body of explicit, written doctrines which are propounded on the basis of a permanent authority. They are quite definite. There's even a search engine so you can look up the most imporant doctrines at:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

T'aint like you need to get different people's opinions, or do any guessing about it.

37 posted on 10/17/2005 10:19:37 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Live and Let Live)
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To: WhiteGuy
I believe they're called "Temple garments."
38 posted on 10/17/2005 10:22:54 AM PDT by Do not dub me shapka broham ("We don't want a Supreme Court justice just like George W. Bush. We can do better.")
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To: NYer

UNfortunately many of the author's assumptions about what Mormons believe are wrong. Sorry.


39 posted on 10/17/2005 10:25:26 AM PDT by Ragtop (We are the people our parents warned us about)
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To: Coleus
FYI Art Bell, worked at ITT in Nutley.

Why doesn't that surprise me?

:))

40 posted on 10/17/2005 10:27:32 AM PDT by Do not dub me shapka broham ("We don't want a Supreme Court justice just like George W. Bush. We can do better.")
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To: Pessimist
Call me sacrilegious if you must, but to me the most likely scenario is that we were seeded here on this planet by travelers from space.

You've simply transfered the question of our origins to another planet or galaxy.

Where did the space travelers come from?

Did somebody seed them, too?

Sooner or later you have to confront the same question, don't you?

Where and how did life originate?

41 posted on 10/17/2005 10:38:58 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: NYer; It's me; marshmallow
Jehovah's Witnesses, Branch Davidians, Oneness Pentecostals, etc.

Aren't Branch Davidians just an offshoot of Seventh Day Adventists?

42 posted on 10/17/2005 10:43:59 AM PDT by Do not dub me shapka broham ("We don't want a Supreme Court justice just like George W. Bush. We can do better.")
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To: Ragtop
UNfortunately many of the author's assumptions about what Mormons believe are wrong. Sorry.

Please correct whichever of the author's assertions are incorrect, and provide a source. Thanks!

43 posted on 10/17/2005 10:59:57 AM PDT by NYer (ôSocialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: marshmallow

"You've simply transfered the question of our origins to another planet or galaxy."

Good point. While I personally favor evolution, you could argue that even if we were seeded here from another planet, that planet's population may have been created by God.

I guess the thing is, even if that is what happened, it would still mean that our existing theology was incorrect.


44 posted on 10/17/2005 11:19:50 AM PDT by Pessimist
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To: NYer

The author says that Mormons believe we are saved by the grace of God alone without works. Which is false. We belive that trhough Christ's atoning for our sins do we find salvation, but with good works as well. To repent means not to repeat the behavior. If I repeat the sin, then I need to repent again, and work hard not ot repeat the sin. The key word being work.
Also if I do not serve my fellow man as Christ taught, then I will not gain salvation by faith alone.
That is where the author is wrong. The source is me. I have been a faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints since I was eight years old.
You know, I really have no problem at all with people of other faiths or their beliefs. I believe that anything that brings one cloer to God is a good thing. I firmly belive that Mother Teresa will get to Heaven on better standing than I will simply becuase of her good works. I try very hard to have respect and understanding of other people's choices of who and how they choose to worship. I also try very hard to respect what they worship. The same goes with one's political and philosophical beliefs as well. I feel sorry for those that feel need to point out inaccuracies of other's beliefs. I am appalled that other members of my faith would engage in such practices. Discussions like these always remind me about anti-mormon protestors outside of the Temple and Conference Center in Salt Lake City. They use foul and hate filled language in the name of our Savior, and I know that depite what anyone believes, our Savior would not approve or condone such behavior.
Normally I avoid reading articles like this on this website because many who profess to be Christian have said some pretty rude, terrible and disrespectful things about my personal beliefs which I hold sacred. Perhaps this is why the monitors shut down these threads after a while.
I hate to get on a soap box, but I just had to get that off of my chest.


45 posted on 10/17/2005 11:24:36 AM PDT by Ragtop (We are the people our parents warned us about)
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To: Pessimist
Is it the Christian belief that God will step in and specifically prevent us from doing that in our future?

No... he created the heaven and the earth....why would he stop us?

Even if we found "life" on other planets, that would still not explain away God.... or his creating us in his image or Jesus Christ.... it's nice to see that at least your curiosity is piqued.

I think some of the greatest Christian writers and theologians started as agnostics or atheist, looked at the question seriously and then logically came to the conclusion that there must be a "God"... and then under more observation and thought came to Christianity.

Good luck to you on your quest. I think we're all stumbling around and I do believe that we are given all the information and free will we need to make the right choice..

46 posted on 10/17/2005 11:43:59 AM PDT by Dick Vomer (liberals suck......... but it depends on what your definition of the word "suck" is.)
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To: Ragtop

I, for one do appreciate your getting up on your 'soapbox'...you have pointed out something which I have noticed on so many of the 'religious' threads, which usually always prevents me in ever participating in them...namely, the discussion and conversation so often does not remain a 'friendly' discussion, but quickly downward spirals into a barrage of insults, name-calling, nasty remarks and the like...

Now, I will not identify myself as a Mormon, or a Catholic, or a Baptist, or a member of any organized 'church', as I dont belong to one...instead I am a person, who has gone to various different churches, has read the Bible, and most importantly, I am seeking after the truth as well as I can discern it...

It never helps when a Catholic gets on a post, and insinuates that all Protestants are 'snake handlers', because there exist small groups of protestants who use snakes in their religious services, and it never helps when Protestants call Catholics 'cannibals', because of their belief concerning communion, and it never helps when members of mainstream religions call those who belong to what may appear to be outside of mainstream, as 'cults', and it never helps when members of one church decide that members of another church are simply not Christians...and I have seen all these ideas and worse posted on what are supposed to be religious threads...

I try to read all the religious threads, for information, for enlightenment, for perhaps something that will help me better understand...when I see insults, slurs, airs of superiority, namecalling, and nasty, nasty remarks, thats a sure turnoff...How people can engage in such discourse, ,and then call themselves 'Christians', is really way beyond me...

To me, those who try to keep Christ as a role model, would not engage in such behavior...civil discussions, disageements, points of contention, yes...just being plain rude and nasty, no...But thats just me...


47 posted on 10/17/2005 11:45:08 AM PDT by andysandmikesmom
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To: andysandmikesmom

Thanks, I appreciate your comments and agree whole-heartedly with you. So long as the snake handlers practice their religion outside of my living room, they can do whatever they feel within the boundaries of the law.


48 posted on 10/17/2005 11:47:50 AM PDT by Ragtop (We are the people our parents warned us about)
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To: NYer
The author's summary of Mormonism is mostly wrong, sometimes egregiously so.

Anyone who wants to know what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints actually teaches would do better to ask a knowledgeable member of the Church. (Or go to the LDS Church web site.)

49 posted on 10/17/2005 11:56:47 AM PDT by Logophile
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To: Ragtop
UNfortunately many of the author's assumptions about what Mormons believe are wrong. Sorry.

What, if anything, specifically?

50 posted on 10/17/2005 12:18:03 PM PDT by iowamark
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