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5 Myths about 7 Books (the Deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament)
Catholic Educators ^ | Mark Shea

Posted on 11/13/2005 12:46:30 PM PST by NYer

People don't talk much about the deuterocanon these days. The folks who do are mostly Christians, and they usually fall into two general groupings: Catholics — who usually don't know their Bibles very well and, therefore, don't know much about the deuterocanonical books, and Protestants — who may know their Bibles a bit better, though their Bibles don't have the deuterocanonical books in them anyway, so they don't know anything about them either. With the stage thus set for informed ecumenical dialogue, it's no wonder most people think the deuterocanon is some sort of particle weapon recently perfected by the Pentagon.

The deuterocanon (ie. "second canon") is a set of seven books — Sirach, Tobit, Wisdom, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, and Baruch, as well as longer versions of Daniel and Esther — that are found in the Old Testament canon used by Catholics, but are not in the Old Testament canon used by Protestants, who typically refer to them by the mildly pejorative term "apocrypha." This group of books is called "deuterocanonical" not (as some imagine) because they are a "second rate" or inferior canon, but because their status as being part of the canon of Scripture was settled later in time than certain books that always and everywhere were regarded as Scripture, such as Genesis, Isaiah, and Psalms.

Why are Protestant Bibles missing these books? Protestants offer various explanations to explain why they reject the deuterocanonical books as Scripture. I call these explanations "myths" because they are either incorrect or simply inadequate reasons for rejecting these books of Scripture. Let's explore the five most common of these myths and see how to respond to them.

Myth 1

The deuterocanonical books are not found in the Hebrew Bible. They were added by the Catholic Church at the Council of Trent after Luther rejected it.

The background to this theory goes like this: Jesus and the Apostles, being Jews, used the same Bible Jews use today. However, after they passed from the scene, muddled hierarchs started adding books to the Bible either out of ignorance or because such books helped back up various wacky Catholic traditions that were added to the gospel. In the 16th century, when the Reformation came along, the first Protestants, finally able to read their Bibles without ecclesial propaganda from Rome, noticed that the Jewish and Catholic Old Testaments differed, recognized this medieval addition for what it was and scraped it off the Word of God like so many barnacles off a diamond. Rome, ever ornery, reacted by officially adding the deuterocanonical books at the Council of Trent (15645-1564) and started telling Catholics "they had always been there."

This is a fine theory. The problem is that its basis in history is gossamer thin. As we'll see in a moment, accepting this myth leads to some remarkable dilemmas a little further on.

The problems with this theory are first, it relies on the incorrect notion that the modern Jewish Bible is identical to the Bible used by Jesus and the Apostles. This is false. In fact, the Old Testament was still very much in flux in the time of Christ and there was no fixed canon of Scripture in the apostolic period. Some people will tell you that there must have been since, they say, Jesus held people accountable to obey the Scriptures. But this is also untrue. For in fact, Jesus held people accountable to obey their conscience and therefore, to obey Scripture insofar as they were able to grasp what constituted "Scripture."

Consider the Sadducees. They only regarded the first five books of the Old Testament as inspired and canonical. The rest of the Old Testament was regarded by them in much the same way the deuterocanon is regarded by Protestant Christians today: nice, but not the inspired Word of God. This was precisely why the Sadducees argued with Jesus against the reality of the resurrection in Matthew 22:23-33: they couldn't see it in the five books of Moses and they did not regard the later books of Scripture which spoke of it explicitly (such as Isaiah and 2 Maccabees) to be inspired and canonical. Does Jesus say to them "You do greatly err, not knowing Isaiah and 2 Maccabees"? Does He bind them to acknowledge these books as canonical? No. He doesn't try to drag the Sadducees kicking and screaming into an expanded Old Testament. He simply holds the Sadducees accountable to take seriously the portion of Scripture they do acknowledge: that is, He argues for the resurrection based on the five books of the Law. But of course, this doesn't mean Jesus commits Himself to the Sadducees' whittled-down canon.

When addressing the Pharisees, another Jewish faction of the time, Jesus does the same thing. These Jews seem to have held to a canon resembling the modern Jewish canon, one far larger than that of the Sadducees but not as large as other Jewish collections of Scripture. That's why Christ and the Apostles didn't hesitate to argue with them from the books they acknowledged as Scripture. But as with the Sadducees, this doesn't imply that Christ or the Apostles limited the canon of Scripture only to what the Pharisees acknowledged.

When the Lord and His Apostles addressed Greek-speaking Diaspora Jews, they made use of an even bigger collection of Scripture — the Septuagint, a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek — which many Jews (the vast majority, in fact) regarded as inspired Scripture. In fact, we find that the New Testament is filled with references to the Septuagint (and its particular translation of various Old Testament passages) as Scripture. It's a strange irony that one of the favorite passages used in anti-Catholic polemics over the years is Mark 7:6-8. In this passage Christ condemns "teaching as doctrines human traditions." This verse has formed the basis for countless complaints against the Catholic Church for supposedly "adding" to Scripture man-made traditions, such as the "merely human works" of the deuterocanononical books. But few realize that in Mark 7:6-8 the Lord was quoting the version of Isaiah that is found only in the Septuagint version of the Old Testament.

But there's the rub: The Septuagint version of Scripture, from which Christ quoted, includes the Deuterocanonical books, books that were supposedly "added" by Rome in the 16th century. And this is by no means the only citation of the Septuagint in the New Testament. In fact, fully two thirds of the Old Testament passages that are quoted in the New Testament are from the Septuagint. So why aren't the deuterocanonical books in today's Jewish Bible, anyway? Because the Jews who formulated the modern Jewish canon were a) not interested in apostolic teaching and, b) driven by a very different set of concerns from those motivating the apostolic community.

In fact, it wasn't until the very end of the apostolic age that the Jews, seeking a new focal point for their religious practice in the wake of the destruction of the Temple, zeroed in with white hot intensity on Scripture and fixed their canon at the rabbinical gathering, known as the "Council of Javneh" (sometimes called "Jamnia"), about A.D. 90. Prior to this point in time there had never been any formal effort among the Jews to "define the canon" of Scripture. In fact, Scripture nowhere indicates that the Jews even had a conscious idea that the canon should be closed at some point.

The canon arrived at by the rabbis at Javneh was essentially the mid-sized canon of the Palestinian Pharisees, not the shorter one used by the Sadducees, who had been practically annihilated during the Jewish war with Rome. Nor was this new canon consistent with the Greek Septuagint version, which the rabbis regarded rather xenophobically as "too Gentile-tainted." Remember, these Palestinian rabbis were not in much of a mood for multiculturalism after the catastrophe they had suffered at the hands of Rome. Their people had been slaughtered by foreign invaders, the Temple defiled and destroyed, and the Jewish religion in Palestine was in shambles. So for these rabbis, the Greek Septuagint went by the board and the mid-sized Pharisaic canon was adopted. Eventually this version was adopted by the vast majority of Jews — though not all. Even today Ethiopian Jews still use the Septuagint version, not the shorter Palestinian canon settled upon by the rabbis at Javneh. In other words, the Old Testament canon recognized by Ethiopian Jews is identical to the Catholic Old Testament, including the seven deuterocanonical books (cf. Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 6, p. 1147).

But remember that by the time the Jewish council of Javneh rolled around, the Catholic Church had been in existence and using the Septuagint Scriptures in its teaching, preaching, and worship for nearly 60 years, just as the Apostles themselves had done. So the Church hardly felt the obligation to conform to the wishes of the rabbis in excluding the deuterocanonical books any more than they felt obliged to follow the rabbis in rejecting the New Testament writings. The fact is that after the birth of the Church on the day of Pentecost, the rabbis no longer had authority from God to settle such issues. That authority, including the authority to define the canon of Scripture, had been given to Christ's Church.

Thus, Church and synagogue went their separate ways, not in the Middle Ages or the 16th century, but in the 1st century. The Septuagint, complete with the deuterocanononical books, was first embraced, not by the Council of Trent, but by Jesus of Nazareth and his Apostles.

Myth 2

Christ and the Apostles frequently quoted Old Testament Scripture as their authority, but they never quoted from the deuterocanonical books, nor did they even mention them. Clearly, if these books were part of Scripture, the Lord would have cited them.

This myth rests on two fallacies. The first is the "Quotation Equals Canonicity" myth. It assumes that if a book is quoted or alluded to by the Apostles or Christ, it is ipso facto shown to be part of the Old Testament. Conversely, if a given book is not quoted, it must not be canonical.

This argument fails for two reasons. First, numerous non-canonical books are quoted in the New Testament. These include the Book of Enoch and the Assumption of Moses (quoted by St. Jude), the Ascension of Isaiah (alluded to in Hebrews 11:37), and the writings of the pagan poets Epimenides, Aratus, and Menander (quoted by St. Paul in Acts, 1 Corinthians, and Titus). If quotation equals canonicity, then why aren't these writings in the canon of the Old Testament?

Second, if quotation equals canonicity, then there are numerous books of the protocanonical Old Testament which would have to be excluded. This would include the Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations and Nahum. Not one of these Old Testament books is ever quoted or alluded to by Christ or the Apostles in the New Testament.

The other fallacy behind Myth #2 is that, far from being ignored in the New Testament (like Ecclesiastes, Esther, and 1 Chronicles) the deuterocanonical books are indeed quoted and alluded to in the New Testament. For instance, Wisdom 2:12-20, reads in part, "For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him."

This passage was clearly in the minds of the Synoptic Gospel writers in their accounts of the Crucifixion: "He saved others; he cannot save himself. So he is the king of Israel! Let him come down from the cross now, and we will believe in him. He trusted in God; let Him deliver him now if he wants him. For he said, ÔI am the Son of God'" (cf. Matthew 27:42-43).

Similarly, St. Paul alludes clearly to Wisdom chapters 12 and 13 in Romans 1:19-25. Hebrews 11:35 refers unmistakably to 2 Maccabees 7. And more than once, Christ Himself drew on the text of Sirach 27:6, which reads: "The fruit of a tree shows the care it has had; so too does a man's speech disclose the bent of his mind." Notice too that the Lord and His Apostles observed the Jewish feast of Hanukkah (cf. John 10:22-36). But the divine establishment of this key feast day is recorded only in the deuterocanonical books of 1 and 2 Maccabees. It is nowhere discussed in any other book of the Old Testament. In light of this, consider the importance of Christ's words on the occasion of this feast: "Is it not written in your Law, ÔI have said you are gods'? If he called them Ôgods,' to whom the word of God came — and the Scripture cannot be broken — what about the One Whom the Father set apart as His very own and sent into the world?" Jesus, standing near the Temple during the feast of Hanukkah, speaks of His being "set apart," just as Judas Maccabeus "set apart" (ie. consecrated) the Temple in 1 Maccabees 4:36-59 and 2 Maccabees 10:1-8. In other words, our Lord made a connection that was unmistakable to His Jewish hearers by treating the Feast of Hanukkah and the account of it in the books of the Maccabees as an image or type of His own consecration by the Father. That is, He treats the Feast of Hanukkah from the so-called "apocryphal" books of 1 and 2 Maccabees exactly as He treats accounts of the manna (John 6:32-33; Exodus 16:4), the Bronze Serpent (John 3:14; Numbers 21:4-9), and Jacob's Ladder (John 1:51; Genesis 28:12) — as inspired, prophetic, scriptural images of Himself. We see this pattern throughout the New Testament. There is no distinction made by Christ or the Apostles between the deuterocanonical books and the rest of the Old Testament.

Myth 3

The deuterocanonical books contain historical, geographical, and moral errors, so they can't be inspired Scripture.

This myth might be raised when it becomes clear that the allegation that the deuterocanonical books were "added" by the Catholic Church is fallacious. This myth is built on another attempt to distinguish between the deuterocanonical books and "true Scripture." Let's examine it.

First, from a certain perspective, there are "errors" in the deuterocanonical books. The book of Judith, for example, gets several points of history and geography wrong. Similarly Judith, that glorious daughter of Israel, lies her head off (well, actually, it's wicked King Holofernes' head that comes off). And the Angel Raphael appears under a false name to Tobit. How can Catholics explain that such "divinely inspired" books would endorse lying and get their facts wrong? The same way we deal with other incidents in Scripture where similar incidents of lying or "errors" happen.

Let's take the problem of alleged "factual errors" first. The Church teaches that to have an authentic understanding of Scripture we must have in mind what the author was actually trying to assert, the way he was trying to assert it, and what is incidental to that assertion.

For example, when Jesus begins the parable of the Prodigal Son saying, "There was once a man with two sons," He is not shown to be a bad historian when it is proven that the man with two sons He describes didn't actually exist. So too, when the prophet Nathan tells King David the story of the "rich man" who stole a "poor man's" ewe lamb and slaughtered it, Nathan is not a liar if he cannot produce the carcass or identify the two men in his story. In strict fact, there was no ewe lamb, no theft, and no rich and poor men. These details were used in a metaphor to rebuke King David for his adultery with Bathsheba. We know what Nathan was trying to say and the way he was trying to say it. Likewise, when the Gospels say the women came to the tomb at sunrise, there is no scientific error here. This is not the assertion of the Ptolemiac theory that the sun revolves around the earth. These and other examples which could be given are not "errors" because they're not truth claims about astronomy or historical events.

Similarly, both Judith and Tobit have a number of historical and geographical errors, not because they're presenting bad history and erroneous geography, but because they're first-rate pious stories that don't pretend to be remotely interested with teaching history or geography, any more than the Resurrection narratives in the Gospels are interested in astronomy. Indeed, the author of Tobit goes out of his way to make clear that his hero is fictional. He makes Tobit the uncle of Ahiqar, a figure in ancient Semitic folklore like "Jack the Giant Killer" or "Aladdin." Just as one wouldn't wave a medieval history textbook around and complain about a tale that begins "once upon a time when King Arthur ruled the land," so Catholics are not reading Tobit and Judith to get a history lesson.

Very well then, but what of the moral and theological "errors"? Judith lies. Raphael gives a false name. So they do. In the case of Judith lying to King Holofernes in order to save her people, we must recall that she was acting in light of Jewish understanding as it had developed until that time. This meant that she saw her deception as acceptable, even laudable, because she was eliminating a deadly foe of her people. By deceiving Holofernes as to her intentions and by asking the Lord to bless this tactic, she was not doing something alien to Jewish Scripture or Old Testament morality. Another biblical example of this type of lying is when the Hebrew midwives lied to Pharaoh about the birth of Moses. They lied and were justified in lying because Pharaoh did not have a right to the truth — if they told the truth, he would have killed Moses. If the book of Judith is to be excluded from the canon on this basis, so must Exodus.

With respect to Raphael, it's much more dubious that the author intended, or that his audience understood him to mean, "Angels lie. So should you." On the contrary, Tobit is a classic example of an "entertaining angels unaware" story (cf. Heb. 13:2). We know who Raphael is all along. When Tobit cried out to God for help, God immediately answered him by sending Raphael. But, as is often the case, God's deliverance was not noticed at first. Raphael introduced himself as "Azariah," which means "Yahweh helps," and then rattles off a string of supposed mutual relations, all with names meaning things like "Yahweh is merciful," "Yahweh gives," and "Yahweh hears." By this device, the author is saying (with a nudge and a wink), "Psst, audience. Get it?" And we, of course, do get it, particularly if we're reading the story in the original Hebrew. Indeed, by using the name "Yahweh helps," Raphael isn't so much "lying" about his real name as he is revealing the deepest truth about who God is and why God sent him to Tobit. It's that truth and not any fluff about history or geography or the fun using an alias that the author of Tobit aims to tell.

Myth 4

The deuterocanonical books themselves deny that they are inspired Scripture.

Correction: Two of the deuterocanonical books seem to disclaim inspiration, and even that is a dicey proposition. The two in question are Sirach and 2 Maccabees. Sirach opens with a brief preface by the author's grandson saying, in part, that he is translating grandpa's book, that he thinks the book important and that, "You therefore are now invited to read it in a spirit of attentive good will, with indulgence for any apparent failure on our part, despite earnest efforts, in the interpretation of particular passages." Likewise, the editor of 2 Maccabees opens with comments about how tough it was to compose the book and closes with a sort of shrug saying, "I will bring my own story to an end here too. If it is well written and to the point, that is what I wanted; if it is poorly done and mediocre, that is the best I could do."

That, and that alone, is the basis for the myth that the deuterocanon (all seven books and not just these two) "denies that it is inspired Scripture." Several things can be said in response to this argument.

First, is it reasonable to think that these typically oriental expressions of humility really constitute anything besides a sort of gesture of politeness and the customary downplaying of one's own talents, something common among ancient writers in Middle Eastern cultures? No. For example, one may as well say that St. Paul's declaration of himself as "one born abnormally" or as being the "chief of sinners" (he mentions this in the present, not past tense) necessarily makes his writings worthless.

Second, speaking of St. Paul, we are confronted by even stronger and explicit examples of disclaimers regarding inspired status of his writings, yet no Protestant would feel compelled to exclude these Pauline writings from the New Testament canon. Consider his statement in 1 Corinthians 1:16 that he can't remember whom he baptized. Using the "It oughtta sound more like the Holy Spirit talking" criterion of biblical inspiration Protestants apply to the deuterocanonical books, St. Paul would fail the test here. Given this amazing criterion, are we to believe the Holy Spirit "forgot" whom St. Paul baptized, or did He inspire St. Paul to forget (1 Cor. 1:15)?

1 Corinthians 7:40 provides an ambiguous statement that could, according to the principles of this myth, be understood to mean that St. Paul wasn't sure that his teaching was inspired or not. Elsewhere St. Paul makes it clear that certain teachings he's passing along are "not I, but the Lord" speaking (1 Cor. 7:10), whereas in other cases, "I, not the Lord" am speaking (cf. 1 Cor. 7:12). This is a vastly more direct "disclaimer of inspiration" than the oblique deuterocanonical passages cited above, yet nobody argues that St. Paul's writings should be excluded from Scripture, as some say the whole of the deuterocanon should be excluded from the Old Testament, simply on the strength of these modest passages from Sirach and 2 Maccabees.

Why not? Because in St. Paul's case people recognize that a writer can be writing under inspiration even when he doesn't realize it and doesn't claim it, and that inspiration is not such a flat-footed affair as "direct dictation" by the Holy Spirit to the author. Indeed, we even recognize that the Spirit can inspire the writers to make true statements about themselves, such as when St. Paul tells the Corinthians he couldn't remember whom he had baptized.

To tweak the old proverb, "What's sauce for the apostolic goose is sauce for the deuterocanonical gander." The writers of the deuterocanonical books can tell the truth about themselves — that they think writing is tough, translating is hard, and that they are not sure they've done a terrific job — without such admissions calling into question the inspired status of what they wrote. This myth proves nothing other than the Catholic doctrine that the books of Sacred Scripture really were composed by human beings who remained fully human and free, even as they wrote under the direct inspiration of God.

Myth 5

The early Church Fathers, such as St. Athanasius and St. Jerome (who translated the official Bible of the Catholic Church), rejected the deuterocanonical books as Scripture, and the Catholic Church added these books to the canon at the Council of Trent.

First, no Church Father is infallible. That charism is reserved uniquely to the pope, in an extraordinary sense and, in an ordinary sense, corporately to all the lawful bishops of the Catholic Church who are in full communion with the pope and are teaching definitively in an ecumenical council. Second, our understanding of doctrine develops. This means that doctrines which may not have been clearly defined sometimes get defined. A classic example of this is the doctrine of the Trinity, which wasn't defined until A.D. 325 at the Council of Nicaea, nearly 300 years after Christ's earthly ministry. In the intervening time, we can find a few Fathers writing before Nicaea who, in good faith, expressed theories about the nature of the Godhead that were rendered inadequate after Nicaea's definition. This doesn't make them heretics. It just means that Michael Jordan misses layups once in awhile. Likewise, the canon of Scripture, though it more or less assumed its present shape — which included the deuterocanonical books — by about A.D. 380, nonetheless wasn't dogmatically defined by the Church for another thousand years. In that thousand years, it was quite on the cards for believers to have some flexibility in how they regarded the canon. And this applies to the handful of Church Fathers and theologians who expressed reservations about the deuterocanon. Their private opinions about the deuterocanon were just that: private opinions.

And finally, this myth begins to disintegrate when you point out that the overwhelming majority of Church Fathers and other early Christian writers regarded the deuterocanonical books as having exactly the same inspired, scriptural status as the other Old Testament books. Just a few examples of this acceptance can be found in the Didache, The Epistle of Barnabas, the Council of Rome, the Council of Hippo, the Third Council of Carthage, the African Code, the Apostolic Constitutions, and the writings of Pope St. Clement I (Epistle to the Corinthians), St. Polycarp of Smyrna, St. Irenaeus of Lyons, St. Hippolytus, St. Cyprian of Carthage, , Pope St. Damasus I, the , St. Augustine, and Pope St. Innocent I.

But last and most interesting of all in this stellar lineup is a certain Father already mentioned: St. Jerome. In his later years St. Jerome did indeed accept the Deuter-ocanonical books of the Bible. In fact, he wound up strenuously defending their status as inspired Scripture, writing, "What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susanna, the Son of the Three Children, and the story of Bel and the Dragon, which are not found in the Hebrew volume (ie. canon), proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. For I wasn't relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they [the Jews] are wont to make against us" (Against Rufinus 11:33 [A.D. 402]). In earlier correspondence with Pope Damasus, Jerome did not call the deuterocanonical books unscriptural, he simply said that Jews he knew did not regard them as canonical. But for himself, he acknowledged the authority of the Church in defining the canon. When Pope Damasus and the Councils of Carthage and Hippo included the deuterocanon in Scripture, that was good enough for St. Jerome. He "followed the judgment of the churches."

Martin Luther, however, did not. And this brings us to the "remarkable dilemmas" I referred to at the start of this article of trusting the Protestant Reformers' private opinions about the deuterocanon. The fact is, if we follow Luther in throwing out the deuterocanonical books despite the overwhelming evidence from history showing that we shouldn't (ie. the unbroken tradition of the Church and the teachings of councils and popes), we get much more than we bargained for.

For Luther also threw out a goodly chunk of the New Testament. Of James, for example, he said, "I do not regard it as the writing of an Apostle," because he believed it "is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works" (Preface to James' Epistle). Likewise, in other writings he underscores this rejection of James from the New Testament, calling it "an epistle full of straw . . . for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it" (Preface to the New Testament).

But the Epistle of James wasn't the only casualty on Luther's hit list. He also axed from the canon Hebrews, Jude, and Revelation, consigning them to a quasi-canonical status. It was only by an accident of history that these books were not expelled by Protestantism from the New Testament as Sirach, Tobit, 1 and 2 Maccabees and the rest were expelled from the Old. In the same way, it is largely the ignorance of this sad history that drives many to reject the deuterocanonical books.

Unless, of course, we reject the myths and come to an awareness of what the canon of Scripture, including the deuterocanonical books, is really based on. The only basis we have for determining the canon of the Scripture is the authority of the Church Christ established, through whom the Scriptures came. As St. Jerome said, it is upon the basis of "the judgment of the churches" and no other that the canon of Scripture is known, since the Scriptures are simply the written portion of the Church's apostolic tradition. And the judgment of the churches is rendered throughout history as it was rendered in Acts 15 by means of a council of bishops in union with St. Peter. The books we have in our Bibles were accepted according to whether they did or did not measure up to standards based entirely on Sacred Tradition and the divinely delegated authority of the Body of Christ in council and in union with Peter.

The fact of the matter is that neither the Council of Trent nor the Council of Florence added a thing to the Old Testament canon. Rather, they simply accepted and formally ratified the ancient practice of the Apostles and early Christians by dogmatically defining a collection of Old Testament Scripture (including the deuterocanon) that had been there since before the time of Christ, used by our Lord and his apostles, inherited and assumed by the Fathers, formulated and reiterated by various councils and popes for centuries and read in the liturgy and prayer for 1500 years.

When certain people decided to snip some of this canon out in order to suit their theological opinions, the Church moved to prevent it by defining (both at Florence and Trent) that this very same canon was, in fact, the canon of the Church's Old Testament and always had been.

Far from adding the books to the authentic canon of Scripture, the Catholic Church simply did its best to keep people from subtracting books that belong there. That's no myth. That's history.


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KEYWORDS: catholiceducators; deuterocanon; deuterocanonical; markshea; oldtestament
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Mark Shea is Senior Content Editor for Catholic Exchange. You may visit his website at www.mark-shea.com
1 posted on 11/13/2005 12:46:32 PM PST by NYer
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To: american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...
Let's close out this weekend with yet one more lesson in Catholicism 101.

On Friday, we learned that Catholics are "born again" through Baptism (still some dissenting views out there, but we proved it regardless of what others choose to believe).

Yesterday, we 'discovered' that the key to recognizing where the Bible came from is to sneak a peek at the Table of Contents. Whose Bible Is It, Anyway? . BTW, that discussion thread is still active.

Today being a 'day of rest', you have an opportunity to gain some insight into the Deuterocanonical Books of the Old Testament. These appear in the Cathoic Bibles but not those of the Protestants. So what's up with that?

Hope you enjoyed this series of threads and have gained a better understanding of your catholic faith, as a result. That's doubly true for those who reside in those diocese where catechesis has been turned down to a simmer.

2 posted on 11/13/2005 12:53:48 PM PST by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: NYer

I surely do like Mark Shea. This was really nicely done, and he's a great guy to boot.


3 posted on 11/13/2005 1:17:56 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: NYer

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html

Above URL is to the DIDACHE, it is one of the oldest Christian writing.
It was not included in the Bible because it says "If a prophet asks for money, he is a false prophet".


4 posted on 11/13/2005 1:22:00 PM PST by HuntsvilleTxVeteran (I shot an error into the air. It's still going everywhere. R. A. HEINLEIN)
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To: NYer

bookmark for later reading


5 posted on 11/13/2005 1:33:33 PM PST by Puddleglum (Thank God the Boston blowhard lost)
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To: NYer

Good article. But it is as old as the world. I recall I read it some two years ago on CatholicExchange. But nevertheless it is a very good post. It shatters the myth that Catholics somehow "improved" the Bible.


6 posted on 11/13/2005 1:36:53 PM PST by REactor (O kurde, co jest grane?)
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To: HuntsvilleTxVeteran
Thanks for the post and the link!

It was not included in the Bible because it says "If a prophet asks for money, he is a false prophet".

Actually it says more than that. The Third Part of the Didache speaks first of teachers or doctors (didaskaloi) in general. These are to be received if they teach the above doctrine (Parts 1 and 2); and if they add the justice and knowledge of the Lord they are to be received as the Lord. Every Apostle is to be received as the Lord, and he may stay one day or two, but if he stay three, he is a false prophet. On leaving he shall take nothing with him but bread. If he ask for money, he is a false prophet. Similarly with the order of prophets: to judge them when they speak in the spirit is the unpardonable sin; but they must be known by their morals. If they seek gain, they are to be rejected.

DIDACHE .

That is not the reason for not including these books in the Canon. In his "Epistola Festalis" (A.D. 367) the illustrious Bishop of Alexandria ranks all of Origen's New Testament Antilegomena, which are identical with the deuteros, boldly inside the Canon, without noticing any of the scruples about them. Thenceforward they were formally and firmly fixed in the Alexandrian Canon. And it is significant of the general trend of ecclesiastical authority that not only were works which formerly enjoyed high standing at broad-minded Alexandria--the Apocalypse of Peter and the Acts of Paul--involved by Athanasius with the apocrypha, but even some that Origen had regarded as inspired--Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Didache--were shut out under the same title.

7 posted on 11/13/2005 1:52:45 PM PST by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: NYer

Check out this site:

http://www.ntcanon.org/authorities.shtml

It lists various early writings, including early canon lists, with quotations that they used.

It is interesting to see early writers like Ignatius of Antioch quoting from a number of texts like Matthew.


8 posted on 11/13/2005 2:00:14 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: NYer

CERC now CatholicEducation.org is an excellent resource.


9 posted on 11/13/2005 2:24:48 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Knitting A Conundrum
Check out this site

Thanks for the post and the link!! Way cool!!!. You are a tremendous source of wisdom in the forum. Bless you.

10 posted on 11/13/2005 2:39:34 PM PST by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: REactor
I recall I read it some two years ago on CatholicExchange.

An oldie but goodie :-) Some articles never go out of fashion.

BTW, I maintain a "catholic ping list". Please freepmail me if you would like to be added to it. Lots of informative, news stories of interest to catholics, along with these occasional forrays into apologetics.

Thanks for the ping!

11 posted on 11/13/2005 2:45:16 PM PST by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: Knitting A Conundrum; NYer; PetroniusMaximus

"It is interesting to see early writers like Ignatius of Antioch quoting from a number of texts like Matthew."

Not just to Matthew, but also Mark, John, Paul and Timothy, all me he either knew or knew within a degree of familiarity, in his Epistle to the Philippians alone. It is a shame that more Protestants don't know the Fathers. If they did, they'd have to begin to wonder if maybe they've been misinterpreting things all along and that Holy Tradition is both real and reliable.


12 posted on 11/13/2005 3:20:12 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; Knitting A Conundrum; PetroniusMaximus
It is a shame that more Protestants don't know the Fathers. If they did, they'd have to begin to wonder if maybe they've been misinterpreting things all along and that Holy Tradition is both real and reliable.

Monday evenings at 8pm on EWTN (available via cable or satellite dish network), Marcus Grodi (a convert) hosts a live, call in program. Each week, he invites a convert on to the show to tell his or her story and answer any questions emailed or phoned in. 9 times out of 10, it is the writings of the early church fathers that eventually convict these individuals that the Catholic Church is the original church. Some of these stories are absolutely extraordinary.

If you have never watched The Journey Home, regardless of your beliefs, I strongly encourage you to tune in, watch and listen to these remarkable stories of great faith, all of which began with an individual's search into the early history of the church.

13 posted on 11/13/2005 5:08:34 PM PST by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: NYer

This is the article that shoved me into the Tiber. I should finish my swim this Easter. :)

Mark Shea is a gem.


14 posted on 11/13/2005 5:19:34 PM PST by LibertyGirl77
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To: NYer

" 9 times out of 10, it is the writings of the early church fathers that eventually convict these individuals that the Catholic Church is the original church. Some of these stories are absolutely extraordinary."

With our Protestant converts, except for the Episcopalians, its virtually 100% the reading of the Fathers which leads them to Orthodoxy.


15 posted on 11/13/2005 5:23:27 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis

There is something about finding out the myths you were taught about the early church ain't necessarily so.


I realized that at 18 or 20, reading saints' lives, but it took me a long time to get my act together anyway. Still, I made it.


16 posted on 11/13/2005 5:34:42 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: NYer; Kolokotronis; Knitting A Conundrum

"It is a shame that more Protestants don't know the Fathers."

I'll admit that it is a blind spot on the part of most Protestant/Evangelicals that they don't know the Fathers. (Though we are faily knowlegable about OUR fathers.)

And though Tradition is an incredible resource (the blood, sweat and toil of milenia of sincere Christian life and thought), I doubt we could ever accept it as being on par with the Holy Scriptures - bring that the Scriptures are the very breath of God adn Christians, sincere and saintly as they may be, are still fallible humans.


17 posted on 11/13/2005 8:37:58 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Tradition, of course, tells us what is Scripture and what is not.


18 posted on 11/13/2005 8:44:47 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS

"Tradition, of course, tells us what is Scripture and what is not."

Do you ever get the feeling that these discussions resemble a dog chasing it's tail?

:)


19 posted on 11/13/2005 8:57:02 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Tradition necessarily comes before Scripture, except in a religion that claims to come from Scripture. Moses is said to have written the first five books and Mohammed to have dictated the Koran. No one ever said that Jesus wrote any of the New Testament.


20 posted on 11/13/2005 9:01:13 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
And though Tradition is an incredible resource (the blood, sweat and toil of milenia of sincere Christian life and thought), I doubt we could ever accept it as being on par with the Holy Scriptures - bring that the Scriptures are the very breath of God adn Christians, sincere and saintly as they may be, are still fallible humans.

And so I guess that those early Christians who decided the canon of the Scriptures (with or without the Deuterocanonical books) were also fallible humans.

21 posted on 11/13/2005 9:38:46 PM PST by Petrosius
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To: HuntsvilleTxVeteran

"If a prophet asks for money, he is a false prophet".

Hey! That's my favorite part!


22 posted on 11/13/2005 9:39:10 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Petrosius

"And so I guess that those early Christians who decided the canon of the Scriptures (with or without the Deuterocanonical books) were also fallible humans."

Yup. Just like John the Baptist was fallible - yet he was still allowed to point out the Christ.


23 posted on 11/13/2005 9:41:45 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Then how can we trust their judgment on the what should be included within the canon of Scriptures?


24 posted on 11/13/2005 9:55:34 PM PST by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius

"Then how can we trust their judgment on the what should be included within the canon of Scriptures?"

How could the disciple trust the witness of John the Baptist?

(Luke 7:35)


25 posted on 11/14/2005 12:13:20 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: LibertyGirl77

Welcome..

and enjoy the living water.


26 posted on 11/14/2005 12:24:29 AM PST by D-fendr
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To: NYer
It is important that God's people understand why the Apocryphal books (also called the Deuterocanonical Books) are rejected from the canon of inspired Scripture.

http://www.biblebelievers.net/BibleVersions/kjcapocr.htm

”Though some of the Apocryphal books do have historical value, giving information regarding the inter-testament "quiet years" prior to the coming of Christ, there is no justification for giving these a place in the Holy Scripture. Their proper place is on the same level as (if not lower than) the writings of the historian Josephesus or of some other uninspired writer of that period.”

27 posted on 11/14/2005 12:34:53 AM PST by ~Matahari (“earnestly contend for the faith once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3))
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To: PetroniusMaximus

I trust the fathers of the Church more than the renaissance and later founders, mostly because they were much closer to the source. Therefore their witness, and how they interpreted the teachings have higher value to me than someone in the 1500s, 1800s, or 1900s...This is why I am where I am.


28 posted on 11/14/2005 4:10:33 AM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: ~Matahari
It is important that God's people understand why the Apocryphal books (also called the Deuterocanonical Books) are rejected from the canon of inspired Scripture. Regards
29 posted on 11/14/2005 4:11:10 AM PST by jo kus
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To: PetroniusMaximus
How could the disciple trust the witness of John the Baptist?

John the Baptist was just renewing the message of the Old Covenant by calling the people to repent of their sins and return to the Covenant. With the person of Jesus Christ we have something new. His message that he was the Christ and the Son of God was validated by the Resurrection. The witness of the Apostles to the Resurrection was the testimony about about a factual event. The selection of the canon of the Scripture on the other hand is a question of judgment and authority. As a Catholic I believe that the visible Church has been given the charism of Infallibility. It is with this that I can have confidence in her judgment regarding the selection of Scripture. If we are to reject this and say that the early Church was made up of only fallible men then their selection of the canon must also be fallible. If so, then how can we have confidence that what we call the Word of God truly is? Thus the authority of the Bible itself becomes subject to private judgment.

30 posted on 11/14/2005 8:11:49 AM PST by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius

It's not really their judgment. The councils and popes involved in determining the canon of Scripture were acting as the human agents for the Holy Spirit. The canon is guaranteed in the same type of way Scripture itself was written: through the human agency of men wielding a pen, inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit.

We are an incarnational Church, embodied spirits surrounded by matter. Just as Jesus used the physical realm to impart His revelation via physical objects (Himself, as a living human body; mud; spittle; water, wine, the wood of the cross, etc.), so, too, He continued the process to some degree after His ascension. Human beings were left in charge as the visible heads of the Church. But revelation and its guarantees of authenticity were still directly "of God" via the Holy Spirit. Men did not merely make things up as they went along. Sometimes they had direct revelation, as in Acts 10; sometimes they had to feel their way along, as in Acts 15, but the Spirit guided them in either case, mere material creatures though they were.

The Spirit used human beings, empowered by the laying on of hands as per Christ, through inspiration and infallibility, as the physical agents of truth. The canon was determined by the lowly material human beings attending certain councils and ratifying them, and they determined it NOT by themselves, but with the guidance of God. The Bible did not fall to earth from heaven ready-made (in Hebrew, Greek or the KJV), but had to be written, compiled, vetted, canonized and interpreted as Scripture by human agents of the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church knows where the Bible truly came from. It's her own book. Those who are so familiar with the Fathers that they can rummage through the entire 37-volume set looking for rare and obscure exceptions to the Sensus Catholicus of the early Church, seem to be acting disingenuously when they plead that they cannot understand how the Church got the Bible. They only compound things when they additionally claim that the deuterocanonicals deserve to be removed from the canon when they cannot cite any reason, without acknowledging the authority of incarnate, human members of the Church acting as representatives of Christ, why there is a canon of Scripture at all.


31 posted on 11/14/2005 9:09:43 AM PST by magisterium
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To: Knitting A Conundrum

"I trust the fathers of the Church more than the renaissance and later founders, mostly because they were much closer to the source"

I trust the early fathers also. But it's a false analogy to compare/contrast early fathers to reformation leaders. The comparison is reformation leaders focusing on the Bible to contemporary Catholic leadership focusing on Tradition.

When you read Paul and the Apostles you are reading the original source of all Tradition. It is uneffected by even the fainted possibility of doctrinal drift.


32 posted on 11/14/2005 9:36:17 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Petrosius

" John the Baptist was just renewing the message of the Old Covenant "

What I am saying is that John was granted the privelege to recognize the Messiah by the presence of the Holy Spirit.

It is similar to those in the early Church who were allowed to recognize the presence of the Holy Spirit in certain books.




"The selection of the canon of the Scripture on the other hand is a question of judgment and authority. "

The early fathers did not convey to the canonical works any authority that they did not already posess.



"If we are to reject this and say that the early Church was made up of only fallible men then their selection of the canon must also be fallible."

Was John the Baptist infallable?


33 posted on 11/14/2005 9:42:43 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus
It is similar to those in the early Church who were allowed to recognize the presence of the Holy Spirit in certain books.

Was the early Church also able to recognize the presence of the Holy Spirit in certain Church teachings and practices? When did the Church loose this ability?

34 posted on 11/14/2005 9:50:02 AM PST by Petrosius
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To: PetroniusMaximus
When you read Paul and the Apostles you are reading the original source of all Tradition. It is uneffected by even the fainted possibility of doctrinal drift.

The problem for your claim of "doctrinal drift," PM, is that there is far more doctrinal drift evident among the churches that claim to follow sola scriptura than there is among those who claim to follow scripture plus tradition.

We've been separated from the Armenians and the Copts since the council of Chalcedon (AD 451), yet we are in closer doctrinal agreement with them than the Missouri Synod Lutherans are with the Southern Baptists -- not to mention that we are in closer agreement with the Armenians and Copts than we are with the Southern Baptists.

We don't claim that the writings of the Fathers are on par with Scripture. Scripture is inspired. Even the most authoritative patristic documents (e.g., the dogmatic decrees of the ecumenical councils) aren't inspired, only infallible. ("Inspiration" is the positive protection that guarantees that a document says exactly what God wishes it to say; "infallibility" is a much weaker negative protection that guarantees that a document will not say what God cannot permit it say.)

But if you use tradition to bind your understanding of Scripture to "what is believed everywhere, at all times, by everyone" (St. Vincent of Lerins) -- that is, you make sure that you're understanding the Bible in a way that is compatible with the way the Church has understood it in the past -- you are actually insuring yourself against doctrinal drift.

Ironically, part of what Luther did was to rediscover authentic Catholic tradition that had become obscured, not in the official teaching of the Church, but in the popular piety of the Catholics of his day. Unfortunately, he didn't stop there. If he had, we might today call him St. Martin of Wittenberg, Priest and Doctor.

35 posted on 11/14/2005 10:14:02 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Knitting A Conundrum

Excellent site! The only one like it I've seen was the earlychristianwritings.com site, but this one seems a little more user friendly. Thanks for posting it!


36 posted on 11/14/2005 11:04:33 AM PST by jcb8199
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To: NYer

Father Larry Richards discusses the Mass in an audio program available from the Mary Foundation, and the Conversion of Scott Hahn is a good listen, too...


37 posted on 11/14/2005 11:10:12 AM PST by jcb8199
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Tell that to Benny Hinn or John Hagee or other scam-artists...the guys who seem to forget the part of the NT that says it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven...


38 posted on 11/14/2005 11:11:47 AM PST by jcb8199
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To: ~Matahari

You must have missed the part of the article that pointed out that there are several references in the NT to the Deuterocanonicals (Jesus and the Apostles quoting the Deuterocanon, for instance)...


39 posted on 11/14/2005 11:12:55 AM PST by jcb8199
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To: NYer
Justin Martyr convinced me, and I'm a Catholic! In his Apology (the First), when he describes (nearly 1900 years ago) the way that they practiced their worship, and it is virtually identical to the Catholic Mass on Sunday, I was floored:

CHAPTER LXV -- ADMINISTRATION OF THE SACRAMENTS.

But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to genoito [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.

CHAPTER LXVI -- OF THE EUCHARIST.

And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRISTIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.


Compare those passages to worship on Sunday at a Catholic Mass and you'll be amazed--prayer, readings, homily, greeting, Eucharist, prayer, leave (and Communion is taken to those who were not able to be present). And this was 1,850 years ago that he wrote it...
40 posted on 11/14/2005 11:21:59 AM PST by jcb8199
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To: Campion
Ironically, part of what Luther did was to rediscover authentic Catholic tradition that had become obscured, not in the official teaching of the Church, but in the popular piety of the Catholics of his day. Unfortunately, he didn't stop there. If he had, we might today call him St. Martin of Wittenberg, Priest and Doctor.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. We could play those games too.

If Pope Leo X and Cardinal Cajetan hadn't excommunicated Luther, but recognized his 95 theses raised some valid objections, there wouldn't have been a Lutheran schism.

It's water under the bridge. What matters today is what you recongized - that Luther rediscovered what had been obscured, as you rightly observed, by the popular piety of the Catholic church.

41 posted on 11/14/2005 11:25:38 AM PST by jude24 ("Thy law is written on the hearts of men, which iniquity itself effaces not." - St. Augustine)
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To: jude24

Interestingly, Leo only demanded that Luther retract 41 of the 95...


42 posted on 11/14/2005 11:32:23 AM PST by jcb8199
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To: jcb8199

Which ones did he accept, or at least not reject?


43 posted on 11/14/2005 11:34:16 AM PST by jude24 ("Thy law is written on the hearts of men, which iniquity itself effaces not." - St. Augustine)
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To: jcb8199; Campion

I remain convinced that too much of the Reformation was a series of entrenchments and overreactions due to strawmen that the other side allegedly believed - the pendulum hypothesis. There were very real differences, to be sure, but I honestly believe much of the Reformation was due to prideful failures to communicate.


44 posted on 11/14/2005 11:36:21 AM PST by jude24 ("Thy law is written on the hearts of men, which iniquity itself effaces not." - St. Augustine)
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To: jcb8199
Compare those passages to worship on Sunday at a Catholic Mass and you'll be amazed--prayer, readings, homily, greeting, Eucharist, prayer, leave (and Communion is taken to those who were not able to be present). And this was 1,850 years ago that he wrote it...

You must be delusional. Everybody knows the Catholic Church invented all that stuff (/sarcasm).

How about Dr. Scott Hahn's first experience attending a Catholic Mass .......

"There I stood, a man incognito, a Protestant minister in plainclothes, slipping into the back of a Catholic chapel in Milwaukee to witness my first Mass. Curiosity had driven me there, and I still didn't feel sure that it was healthy curiosity. Studying the writings of the earliest Christians, I'd found countless references to "the liturgy," "the Eucharist," "the sacrifice." For those first Christians, the Bible - the book I loved above all - was incomprehensible apart from the event that today's Catholics called "the Mass."

"I wanted to understand the early Christians; yet I'd had no experience of liturgy. So I persuaded myself to go and see, as a sort of academic exercise, but vowing all along that I would neither kneel nor take part in idolatry."

I took my seat in the shadows, in a pew at the very back of that basement chapel. Before me were a goodly number of worshipers, men and women of all ages. Their genuflections impressed me, as did their apparent concentration in prayer. Then a bell rang, and they all stood as the priest emerged from a door beside the altar.

Unsure of myself, I remained seated. For years, as an evangelical Calvinist, I'd been trained to believe that the Mass was the ultimate sacrilege a human could commit. The Mass, I had been taught, was a ritual that purported to "resacrifice Jesus Christ." So I would remain an observer. I would stay seated, with my Bible open beside me.

As the Mass moved on, however, something hit me. My Bible wasn't just beside me. It was before me - in the words of the Mass! One line was from Isaiah, another from Psalms, another from Paul. The experience was overwhelming. I wanted to stop everything and shout, "Hey, can I explain what's happening from Scripture? This is great!" Still, I maintained my observer status. I remained on the sidelines until I heard the priest pronounce the words of consecration: "This is My body . . . This is the cup of My blood."

Then I felt all my doubt drain away. As I saw the priest raise that white host, I felt a prayer surge from my heart in a whisper: "My Lord and my God. That's really you!"

I was what you might call a basket case from that point. I couldn't imagine a greater excitement than what those words had worked upon me. Yet the experience was intensified just a moment later, when I heard the congregation recite: "Lamb of God . . . Lamb of God . . . Lamb of God," and the priest respond, "This is the Lamb of God . . ." as he raised the host. In less than a minute, the phrase "Lamb of God" had rung out four times. From long years of studying the Bible, I immediately knew where I was. I was in the Book of Revelation, where Jesus is called the Lamb no less than twenty-eight times in twenty-two chapters. I was at the marriage feast that John describes at the end of that very last book of the Bible. I was before the throne of heaven, where Jesus is hailed forever as the Lamb. I wasn't ready for this, though - I was at Mass!

45 posted on 11/14/2005 12:03:09 PM PST by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: jcb8199
Your Freeper bio reads: I am also 100% in favor of a Crusade against Islam.

Perhaps “Crusades” are in your genes.

I suggest you read what is beyond doubt one of the great Christian classics….. Foxe's Book of Martyrs by Foxe, John (1516-1587) written around the time that the Roman Catholic faith added the errant apocrypha to their Bible in 1546.

http://www.myhomepage.net/~jhdearmore/foxeindex.htm

46 posted on 11/14/2005 1:00:11 PM PST by ~Matahari (“earnestly contend for the faith once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3))
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To: jcb8199; NYer

Sounds just like the service at my church...


47 posted on 11/14/2005 1:57:23 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: NYer

"9 times out of 10, it is the writings of the early church fathers that eventually convict these individuals that the Catholic Church is the original church."

You know, it goes the other way to. This is not meant to be inflamitory, but I have met a lot of ex catholics in my life. I am always very interested to hear their stories as to why they left the Catholic church.

90% of the time they say it is because they started to read the Bible and they began to see things in it that were in opposition to what they had learned in the Catholic church. They would go to their priest for answers but found none.


48 posted on 11/14/2005 2:06:50 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: ~Matahari
... written around the time that the Roman Catholic faith added the errant apocrypha to their Bible in 1546.

How many time do we have to go over this? There is plenty of documentary evidence that the Deuterocanonical books were universally used in Christian worship as Holy Scripture from the time of the Apostles and that they were officially confirmed as such by Pope Innocent I at the beginning of the 5th century. The periodic questions that were raised about them were private opinions that never effected their use in worship or their official recognition by the Church.

49 posted on 11/14/2005 2:08:40 PM PST by Petrosius
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To: NYer

BEhold the lamb of God,
Behold him to takes away the sins of the world.

O Lord,
at that moment,
we are taken back,
standing in the dust,
touched with the smell of blood,
and fear,
and grief,
and pain,
and looking up,
both to you in the white host,
broken in the priest's hands,
to you on the cross of calvary,
to you, at that last supper,
holding the bread that was you,
that would feed your followers
and all the followers who followed them.

Behold,
him who is Love Incarnate,
him, who to whom every knee will bow,
him, who was wounded for our transgressions,
him, who brings us back,
a re-presentation of that moment in time,
where he who was master,
bled for we who are slave,
on a slave's cross,
in a slave's death
so that we might live.

Blessed are we,
because he called us,
the undeserving,
the lost,
the ungrateful,
the cruel,
the lusting,
the sin-sick,
all called to be healed,

Lord, I will never be worthy to receive you under the roof of my soul,
but only say the word,
the word that heals,
the word that lifts me out of the dust of my deserved death,
and my soul,
so stained, aching and lost,
shall truly be healed.

Amen.


50 posted on 11/14/2005 2:14:13 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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