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The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings
Ignatius Insight ^ | November 16, 2005 | Peter J. Kreeft

Posted on 11/17/2005 8:56:40 AM PST by Petrosius

• This essay is an excerpt from Peter J. Kreeft's new book, The Philosophy of Tolkien: The Worldview Behind The Lord of the Ring.

Can any one man incarnate every truth and virtue?

Throughout the New Testament we find a shocking simplicity: Christ does not merely teach the truth, He is the truth; He does not merely show us the way, He is the way; He does not merely give us eternal life, He is that life. He does not merely teach or purchase our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption, but "God made [Him] our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption" (1 Cor 1:30). How can all these universal values and truths be really and completely present in one concrete individual person? Only if that Person is divine (thus universal) as well as human (thus particular); only by the Incarnation; only by what C. S. Lewis calls "myth become fact".

J. R. R. Tolkien, like most Catholics, saw pagan myths not as wholly mistaken (as most Protestants do), but as confused precursors of Christianity. Man's soul has three powers, and God left him prophets for all three: Jewish moralists for his will, Greek philosophers for his mind, and pagan mythmakers for his heart and imagination and feelings. Of course, the latter two are not infallible. C. S. Lewis calls pagan myths "gleams of celestial strength and beauty falling on a jungle of filth and imbecility" (Perelandra, p. 201). One of the key steps in Lewis's conversion, as recounted in his autobiography, Surprised by Joy, was his reading the chapter in Chesterton's The Everlasting Man that showed him the relationship between Christianity and pagan myths of salvation, death, and resurrection. Christianity was "myth become fact".

Tolkien's Catholic tradition tends to have a high opinion of pagans who know and follow the "natural law", for it interprets these pagans not apart from Christ, but as imperfectly knowing Him. For Christ is not just a thirty-three-year-old, six-foot-tall Jewish carpenter, but the eternal Logos, the Mind of God, "the true light that enlightens every man" (Jn 1:9). So Christ can be present even when not adequately known in paganism. This is exactly what St. Paul told the Athenians (in Acts 17:23): "What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you." Christ's presence is not limited to the presence of the explicit knowledge of Christ, or the revelation of Christ. As the Reformed tradition puts it, there is also "general revelation" as well as "special revelation".

So even though The Lord of the Rings is not an allegory of the Gospels, we can find numerous parallels to the Gospels in The Lord of the Rings, since the Person at the center of the Gospels is omnipresent in hidden ways, not only in His eternal, universal nature as Truth, Goodness, and Beauty, but even in His particular historical manifestation, His Incarnation. For instance, Frodo's journey up Mount Doom is strikingly similar to Christ's Way of the Cross. Sam is his Simon of Cyrene, but he carries the cross bearer as well as the cross.

There is no one complete, concrete, visible Christ figure in The Lord of the Rings, like Aslan in Narnia. But Christ is really, though invisibly, present in the whole of The Lord of the Rings. The Lord of the Rings is like the Eucharist. Under its appearances we find Christ, who under these (pagan, universal) figures (symbols, not allegories), is truly hidden: quae sub hisfiguris vere latitat.


He is more clearly present in Gandalf, Frodo, and Aragorn, the three Christ figures. First of all, all three undergo different forms of death and resurrection (see section 5.1 of The Philosophy of Tolkien: The Worldview Behind The Lord of the Rings).

Second, all three are saviors: through their self-sacrifice they help save all of Middle-earth from the demonic sway of Sauron. Third, they exemplify the Old Testament threefold Messianic symbolism of prophet (Gandalf), priest (Frodo), and king (Aragorn). These three "job descriptions" correspond to the three distinctively human powers of the soul, as discovered by nearly every psychologist from Plato to Freud: head, heart, and hands, or mind, emotions, and will. For this reason many great tales have three protagonists: Gandalf, Frodo, and Aragorn; Mr. Spock, Bones McCoy, and Captain Kirk; Ivan, Alyosha, and Dmitri Karamazov; St. John the philosophical mystic, St. James the practical moralist, and St. Peter the courageous leader and Rock.

A fourth hidden presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings is in the theme of divine providence (see section 2.2); for from the New Testament point of view Christ is the supreme example in history of divine providence–in fact, the single point of all other examples, of all history.

A fifth presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings is in the creative power of its language (see sections 9. 1 and 9-3). Christ is the Logos, the Word of God. He is mentioned in the Bible as early as Genesis 1:3 (cf. Jn 1:3), but as a verb, not a noun.

A sixth presence is ecclesial. Tolkien was a Catholic and called The Lord of the Rings "a Catholic book" (see section 2.4). He removed "churches" from The Lord of the Rings not only to avoid anachronism but also to show the presence, in the depths of his plot, of the universal ("catholic") Church. For the Church is not only an organization but also an organism, an invisible, "mystical" Body, a "fellowship". The word "church", from the Greek ek-klesia, means "the called out". A good description of the Fellowship of the Ring.

For the Church, too, is a "fellowship of a ring", but her ring is exactly the opposite of Sauron's. It is the Eucharist: a little wafer that is equally round, but full rather than empty; the humble extension of the Incarnation of God into man rather than the proud self-exaltation of man in order to make himself God. The Ring takes your life, your blood, like Dracula, a perfect opposite to Christ, Who comes to give His blood, to give us a blood transfusion. The two symbols are perfect opposites: the Ring of Power and the Bread of Weakness, the Lord of the Rings and the Lamb of God.

The whole of history, as revealed in the Bible, is the cosmic jihad between Christ and Antichrist, martyr and vampire, humility of God versus pride of man. Throughout the Bible there is vertical symbolism exemplifying this contrast. Paradise is made in Eden by God's self-giving descent and lost through man's self-taking, man's succumbing to the devil's temptation to become "like God". The apparent rise is really the "fall". After Paradise is lost, the City of Man tries to rise up to Heaven again by its own power, in the Tower of Babel, and falls. And when Paradise is finally regained, the New Jerusalem of the City of God descends from Heaven as a grace.

The most fundamental Christian symbol is the Cross. This also is perfectly opposite to the Ring. The Cross gives life; the Ring takes it. The Cross gives you death, not power; the Ring gives you power even over death. The Ring squeezes everything into its inner emptiness; the Cross expands in all four directions, gives itself to the emptiness, filling it with its blood, its life. The Ring is Dracula's tooth. The Cross is God's sword, held at the hilt by the hand of Heaven and plunged into the world not to take our blood but to give us His. The Cross is Christ's hypodermic; the Ring is Dracula's bite. The Cross saves other wills; the Ring dominates other wills. The Cross liberates; the Ring enslaves.

The Cross works only freely, by the vulnerability of love. Love is vulnerable to rejection, and thus apparent failure. Frodo offers Gollum free kindness, but he fails to win Gollum's trust and fails himself, at the Crack of Doom, to complete his task. But his philosophy does not fail.

He could have used the philosophy of Sauron, of the Ring. He could have used force and compelled Gollum, or even justly killed him. But no one can make another person good by controlling his will, not even God. Frodo nearly won Gollum by his kindness, but Gollum chose not to trust and lost both his body and his soul. Frodo failed.

There is no room for failure in the philosophy of Sauron. There is room for failure in the philosophy of Tolkien, for the philosophy of Tolkien is simply Christianity. And according to Christianity, the most revealing thing that ever happened in history happened at another Crack of Doom, when Christ "failed", lost, died. That was how the meek little Lamb defeated the great dragon beast (see Rev 17, especially verse 14): by His blood. Frodo did what Christ did, and it "worked" because Christ did it, because it was real, not fantasy, and it was real because the real world is a "Christian" world. Only in a Christian world can this "failure" have such power.

It is a very strange philosophy. A few pagan sages like Lao Tzu understood the principle of the power of weakness, but he did not know it would come from a literal, bloody event in history. Neither did Frodo. Like Socrates, Buddha, and Lao Tzu, Frodo did not see Christ, yet somehow believed: "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe" (Jn 20:29).



Peter Kreeft, Ph.D., is a professor of philosophy at Boston College. He is an alumnus of Calvin College (AB 1959) and Fordham University (MA 1961, Ph.D., 1965). He taught at Villanova University from 1962-1965, and has been at Boston College since 1965.

He is the author of numerous books (over forty and counting) including: C.S. Lewis for the Third Millennium, Fundamentals of the Faith, Catholic Christianity, Back to Virtue, and Three Approaches to Abortion. In addition to Socrates Meets Sartre, his most recent Ignatius Press books include You Can Understand the Bible and The God Who Loves You


TOPICS: Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: bookreview; literature; lordoftherings; lotr
Sorry for what is basically an advertisement but I thought the article was interesting.
1 posted on 11/17/2005 8:56:40 AM PST by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius

Does that make cloning...more or less what was being done when the uruk-hai were being made, satan's work?


2 posted on 11/17/2005 9:07:37 AM PST by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: Petrosius

I read that Tolkien denied he was trying to symbolize Christ in LOTR. Nevertheless, the story is so obviously filled with Catholic symbolism and morality, even if there are no direct mentions of it, his writings were so obviously influenced by Catholic teachings.


3 posted on 11/17/2005 9:12:19 AM PST by Tired of Taxes
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To: Petrosius

interesting article...thanks


4 posted on 11/17/2005 9:32:06 AM PST by silverleaf (Fasten your seat belts- it's going to be a BUMPY ride.)
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To: Petrosius
Tolkien's Catholic tradition tends to have a high opinion of pagans who know and follow the "natural law", for it interprets these pagans not apart from Christ, but as imperfectly knowing Him.

Ping for later reading.

5 posted on 11/17/2005 9:55:55 AM PST by Alex Murphy (Psalm 73)
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To: ecurbh

pingy


6 posted on 11/17/2005 9:56:38 AM PST by Lil'freeper (43519/6481)
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To: Alex Murphy
C. S. Lewis calls pagan myths "gleams of celestial strength and beauty falling on a jungle of filth and imbecility"

Pagan is as pagan does. And God is not so inscrutable as to be merely a "gleam."

"I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right." -- Isaiah 45:19

There is paganism, found in LOTR and Harry Potter, and there is faith in Christ crucified, found in Scripture. They are the antithesis of one another.

As literature, these books are fun to read. As theology, they are empty noise and vain imaginings.

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." -- 1 Corinthians 2:12-14

"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." -- Romans 5:6

Life is on God's timetable, not man's.

7 posted on 11/17/2005 11:17:08 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ('Deserves' got nothing to do with it.)
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To: Petrosius

Bttt


8 posted on 11/17/2005 11:19:59 AM PST by DoctorMichael (The Fourth-Estate is a Fifth-Column!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Don't think Tolkien wrote them to be masked theology...but the theology he believed in sneaks into it. IMHO, and being very familiar with the matrix of legendary material that Tolkien also studied and that influenced his work.

He clearly states that he chose things the way he did not to be drawing allegories. But when you see things like the creation story in the Silmarilion, it is quite clear that all of these things have influenced the professor. Including being in the time and era he was when he started playing with it.

Still a great, good rousing story where good triumps over evil, and we are glad for it.


9 posted on 11/17/2005 11:25:24 AM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: Petrosius

bump for later read


10 posted on 11/17/2005 11:55:21 AM PST by Hegemony Cricket (Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof - usually by midmorning, or so.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Hmmmm....I wonder what spiritual significant of this new LOTR character would be:

Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return of the King

11 posted on 11/17/2005 12:33:13 PM PST by HarleyD (Joh 8:36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.)
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To: HarleyD

That, sir, is an example of "total depravity".


12 posted on 11/17/2005 12:51:07 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Tired of Taxes; ecurbh; HairOfTheDog; JenB; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; RosieCotton; SuziQ

Tolkien denied that the books were allegory. His statement was (and there's a quote out they're somewhere) that "I'm a Catholic, so naturally my work will reflect my beliefs." (that's a very bad paraphrase).

Of course there's paganism and evil in LOTR. There's paganism and evil in the world. Doesn't mean we shouldn't read about them and learn from them. It's the same with the works of C.S. Lewis.

These men used the gifts God gave them to create marvelous works of literature. And, as with all of creation if we view them properly, we can see God in them, whether that was the author's intent or not.

Now, excuse me whilst I get back in line for my "Goblet of Fire" tickets...


13 posted on 11/17/2005 1:52:23 PM PST by Corin Stormhands (Yea, tho I walk thru the vally of lie'brals ~ (Nano count 32,221))
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
As literature, these books are fun to read. As theology, they are empty noise and vain imaginings.

Since neither Tolkien nor Rowling ever said they were writing Theology, your point is irrelevant.

14 posted on 11/17/2005 2:13:19 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: HarleyD

NO!! Do NOT besmirch Boromir in that way!!


15 posted on 11/17/2005 2:14:09 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: Corin Stormhands; SuziQ

I feel like we've been around this tree so many times we've worn a rut. :~D


16 posted on 11/17/2005 2:14:21 PM PST by HairOfTheDog (Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/ 1,000 knives and counting!)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

17 posted on 11/17/2005 2:21:21 PM PST by ecurbh ()()A Festivus for the rest of us!()()
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To: ecurbh

ROTFL! Oh my sides :~D


18 posted on 11/17/2005 2:22:37 PM PST by HairOfTheDog (Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/ 1,000 knives and counting!)
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To: ecurbh; HairOfTheDog

ROTFL!!


19 posted on 11/17/2005 2:25:16 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: SuziQ; HairOfTheDog

I've been waiting a long time for the right opportunity to use that graphic.


20 posted on 11/17/2005 2:26:35 PM PST by ecurbh ()()A Festivus for the rest of us!()()
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To: ecurbh

And bam... there you were to apply it, perfectly :~D

Good job honey :~D


21 posted on 11/17/2005 2:27:56 PM PST by HairOfTheDog (Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/ 1,000 knives and counting!)
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To: 2Jedismom; 300winmag; Alkhin; Alouette; ambrose; Anitius Severinus Boethius; artios; AUsome Joy; ...

Ring Ping!!

FrodoPlease support our Hobbit Hole Pocket knives for the troops project.

Anyone wishing to be added to or removed from the Ring-Ping list, please don't hesitate to let me know.

22 posted on 11/17/2005 5:20:14 PM PST by ecurbh ()()A Festivus for the rest of us!()()
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To: big'ol_freeper

pingy


23 posted on 11/17/2005 5:32:43 PM PST by Lil'freeper (43519/6481)
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To: stuartcr

> Does that make cloning...more or less what was being done when the uruk-hai were being made, satan's work?

Bingo! Creation was God's domain. Morgoth's attempts at "creation" were a terrible distortion of the God-given Elven beauty... a caricature at best.


24 posted on 11/17/2005 6:01:07 PM PST by XEHRpa
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To: Tired of Taxes

> I read that Tolkien denied he was trying to symbolize Christ in LOTR.

I don't believe he denied any symbolism. I think he denied that the work was allegory, which is a particular form of literary symbolism in which a one-to-one correspondence exists between reality and the allegorical work.


25 posted on 11/17/2005 6:02:52 PM PST by XEHRpa
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To: ecurbh

BWAAHAHAHAHA!!


26 posted on 11/17/2005 6:04:58 PM PST by RMDupree (HHD: Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: ecurbh

Been a while since we've had ring-ping. Thanks.


27 posted on 11/17/2005 6:26:24 PM PST by osagebowman ((Help us support our troops! - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/))
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To: ecurbh
Oh my goodness...that IS HILARIOUS....

THanks for the laugh.

28 posted on 11/17/2005 6:28:57 PM PST by DCBryan1
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To: DoctorMichael

Did you know that C.S. Lewis (Narnia fame) and J.R.R. Tolkien were good friends?


29 posted on 11/17/2005 6:39:35 PM PST by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: RadioAstronomer
"........Did you know that C.S. Lewis (Narnia fame) and J.R.R. Tolkien were good friends?........."

Yes!

I had first read LOTR when I was 10 in 1964; I still have the First Edition DELL paperbacks tucked away in a box in a closet. I've read it at least 15 times over the years. It wasn't until much later that I began reading Lewis and discovered how their two lives were intertwined.

While attempting to express similar Christian concepts through allegory and parable their writing styles are different. I enjoy Tolkien's naturalistic approach more; Lewis is a bit too hung up on getting the logic right such that he comes off (at least in his non-Naria philosophical essays) as a bit more obtuse and unsettling. Tolkien to me feels more like a kindly old Uncle who is more comfortable in his Faith while Lewis is more of a stern father-figure who is firey in his Evangelicism.........JMHO.

30 posted on 11/17/2005 6:59:42 PM PST by DoctorMichael (The Fourth-Estate is a Fifth-Column!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: DoctorMichael; RightWingAtheist; Physicist
I still have the First Edition DELL paperbacks tucked away in a box in a closet. I've read it at least 15 times over the years.

Me too, me too! :-) - except my were the Ballantine editions. Loved the cover art that allowed you to put the books side-by-side together into a single picture. In fact, I have a poster of that artwork rolled up in my storage area.

I've read it at least 15 times over the years. It wasn't until much later that I began reading Lewis and discovered how their two lives were intertwined.

Right with ya again. :-)

While attempting to express similar Christian concepts through allegory and parable their writing styles are different. I enjoy Tolkien's naturalistic approach more; Lewis is a bit too hung up on getting the logic right such that he comes off (at least in his non-Naria philosophical essays) as a bit more obtuse and unsettling. Tolkien to me feels more like a kindly old Uncle who is more comfortable in his Faith while Lewis is more of a stern father-figure who is firey in his Evangelicism.........JMHO.

I like your analysis. :-)

Note: The books I disliked were the The "Prelandria" Series.

31 posted on 11/17/2005 7:11:22 PM PST by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: RadioAstronomer
Oops! Sorry, I just checked my editions in the box........they are "ACE (Science Fiction Classic)" editions ($0.75 cents each) done in bold, primary colors: 'FOTR' is bright RED, 'TTT' is YELLOW & 'ROTK' is BLUE. I think they preceeded the Ballantine editions and were the first paperback editions published in the US.

"....I disliked were the The "Prelandria" Series...."

Me too.

32 posted on 11/17/2005 7:31:42 PM PST by DoctorMichael (The Fourth-Estate is a Fifth-Column!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: RadioAstronomer
Gotta run for now, as its 10:40 and I've two new songs to learn for my gig tomorrow night...........

'Bus Stop' by the HOLLIES
http://www.chordie.com/chord.pere/getsome.org/guitar/olga/main/h/hollies/bus_stop.crd

...and 'When you say Nothing at All' by Allison Krauss
http://www.chordie.com/chord.pere/www.roughstock.com/cowpie/cowpie-songs/k/krauss_alison/when_you_say_nothing_at_all.crd

.....I've got 'cheat sheets' but the chord changes go by so quickly when you're onstage performing that its not good to go up there totally cold. Besides, I'm a perfectionist and like putting on a good show! [LOL]

33 posted on 11/17/2005 7:49:25 PM PST by DoctorMichael (The Fourth-Estate is a Fifth-Column!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: HairOfTheDog; ecurbh; SuziQ; RMDupree
I feel like we've been around this tree so many times we've worn a rut. :~D

Maybe if we call it a moat and throw in some gators we'll keep the loonies out of the Shire. ;-)

34 posted on 11/17/2005 8:00:22 PM PST by Corin Stormhands (Yea, tho I walk thru the vally of lie'brals ~ (Nano count 32,221))
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To: Tired of Taxes; Knitting A Conundrum; Petrosius

This is a long running argument. Tolkein and Lewis were both members of a "fraternity" (in the purest sense) of Oxford literary types, mostly professors, who were all very specifically and overtly Christian. The group was a rarity at Oxford, which was similar to most current liberal schools in promoting atheism as the official dogma.

Their writings were intentionally meant to illustrate Christian themes but, to varying degrees, also meant to avoid speaking of Christ or Church. They wanted to illustrate the truths embodied in Christ and Christianity without making reference to either in order to draw in a wider audience and expose them to fundamental concepts first, then bring Christ in later.

There is a fairly compellig thread from about 2 years ago talking about a college course that argues the J K Rowling is attempting to carry on this tradition with the Harry Potter series.

Do a google on "the inklings" combined with other terms like Lewis, Tolkein or Christian and you'll find some interesting (though often contradictory) information. I am personally fascinated by George MacDonald (1824-1905), who was a predecessor and something of an inspiration for the Inklings group that included Lewis and Tolkein. The stories of his that I've read are very interesting.


35 posted on 11/17/2005 8:05:25 PM PST by Phsstpok (There are lies, damned lies, statistics and presentation graphics, in descending order of truth)
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To: Petrosius

Allegories or parallels in LOTR? There are others:

Superman or Jesus?

Not of this world.
Came to Earth as a baby.
Miraculous powers.
Destroying evil, and saving lives in the process.
Immortal

Santa or Jesus?

Comes from far away.
Bringing gifts.
He knows when you are sleeping, knows when you're awake.
Knows if you've been bad or good.
Immortal

The Wizard of OZ or Pilgrim's Progress?

Starting a new life as a stranger dwelling in a strange land.
A fork in the road.
The goal, a magnificent city.
A burden to bear.
Now abideth faith (brain), hope (courage), and charity or love (a heart).
Numerous trials attempt to discourage or even destroy.
Water is useful to destroy evil.
Stay the course.
The burden is lifted after the victorious journey.
Etc.

I'm sure those can be added to.

Also, a lot of folks have made money off 'parallels'. Seems it is a reliable system for making a profit.
But not always a good idea, IMO. Because, if His NAME is left out, who is getting the glory?


36 posted on 11/17/2005 8:10:59 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Petrosius

read later


37 posted on 11/17/2005 8:18:12 PM PST by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America)
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To: DoctorMichael
Tolkien to me feels more like a kindly old Uncle who is more comfortable in his Faith while Lewis is more of a stern father-figure who is firey in his Evangelicism.........JMHO.

Sounds right. Tolkien was a comfortable Catholic, but Lewis was a convert. Someone new to the faith would be likely to be more foreceful about it.

38 posted on 11/17/2005 8:51:56 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: DoctorMichael

Wow, "Bus Stop" is a blast from the past! I was a teenager when that song came out!


39 posted on 11/17/2005 8:52:57 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: RadioAstronomer; DoctorMichael
Regarding the friendship of J.R.R.T. and C.S. Lewis, this little bit from The History of Middle-Earth vol. 5: The Lost Road and Other Writings:
In February 1968 my father addressed a commentary to the authors of an article about him (The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien no. 294). In the course of this he recorded that 'one day' C. S. Lewis said to him that since 'there is too little of what we really like in stories' they would have to try to write some themselves. He went on: "We agreed that he should try 'space-travel', and I should try 'time-travel'. His result is well known. My effort, after a few promising chapters, ran dry: it was too long a way round to what I really wanted to make, a new version of the Atlantis legend. The final scene survives as The Downfall of Numenor."

J.R.R.T.'s unfinished work was titled "The Lost Road". Lewis' work, which he finished and which was published, was Out of the Silent Planet.

40 posted on 11/17/2005 9:16:39 PM PST by Bear_in_RoseBear (I ain't as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was)
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To: Corin Stormhands
Now, excuse me whilst I get back in line for my "Goblet of Fire" tickets...

Oh, no, say it ain't so, Corin Stormhands. LOL.

I only read the first Potter book, to review it before I allowed my son to read it, and I thought there were a lot of Christian elements in that story, too.

41 posted on 11/17/2005 10:03:51 PM PST by Tired of Taxes
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To: Phsstpok

I always loved Tolkien, but I'd never heard of "The Inklings". I just did a search. Thanks for the info.

I like learning more about my favorite authors, but also my oldest son will be reading LOTR this coming year, and that background will be helpful for him to know, too.


42 posted on 11/17/2005 10:15:46 PM PST by Tired of Taxes
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To: XEHRpa

We must all be doomed then, because of the recent advances in cloning.


43 posted on 11/18/2005 6:29:02 AM PST by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: RadioAstronomer
the character "Ransom" in "out of the silent planet" and "peralandra" was based on Tolkien (however, in the third book, that Hideous Strength, both the plot and the Ransom character was influenced more by Charles Williams)...

To give one example: George Sayer describes Tolkien visiting him and playing "Thomas the Tank Engine" with his children (see his essay in Tolkien a celebration ed Joseph Pearce)...and in Out of the Silent Planet, Ransom is popular with Martians because he played with their children...

On the other hand, the exuberance and booming voice of Treebeard is based on CS Lewis...

Humphrey's book The Inklings discusses that group of men...who were quite different in many ways both personally and philosophically...
44 posted on 11/18/2005 3:47:49 PM PST by LadyDoc (liberals only love politically correct poor people)
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To: stuartcr

> We must all be doomed then, because of the recent advances in cloning.

Most people have no true idea of the slippery slope we are sliding down on this one.


45 posted on 11/18/2005 8:27:42 PM PST by XEHRpa
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To: XEHRpa

Perhaps Tolkein did...but then again, it may just all be part of God's plan for us.


46 posted on 11/19/2005 6:37:47 AM PST by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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