Posted on 11/17/2005 4:35:36 PM PST by COBOL2Java
For a couple of weeks now, you have discussed Purgatory. Do we know what happens in Purgatory? I was at the Franciscan Monastery and in the catacomb area they have a chapel for the poor souls in Purgatory which shows them in fire. Is this true of Purgatory? — A reader in Washington
What does this purification entail? Like Hell, there is the pain of loss and the pain of sense: however, the severity of these pains between Hell and Purgatory is vastly different. The pain of loss for those in Purgatory is the temporary deprivation of the Beatific Vision. Each of us longs to be with God, see Him, and be enwrapped in His love. The Apostolic Constitution Benedictus Deus (1336) promulgated by Pope Benedict XII, defined that the souls of the just "...see the divine essence with an intuitive vision and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature by way of object of vision; rather, the divine essence immediately manifests itself to them, plainly, clearly, and openly, and in this vision they enjoy the divine essence." Therefore, the souls in Purgatory long for this vision. That longing and deprivation is what torments their soul.
The pain of sense involves some sensible suffering. While not defined, traditionally this pain of sense has involved some purifying fire, which causes torment. In the Book of the Prophet Zechariah, the Lord spoke, "I will bring the one third through fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and I will test them as gold is tested" (13:9); the School of Rabbi Shammai interpreted this passage as a purification of the soul through God's mercy and goodness, preparing it for eternal life. A similar passage is found in the Book of Wisdom (3:1-9): "The souls of the just are in the hand of God, and no torment shall touch them. ...Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of Himself. As gold in the furnace, He proved them, and as sacrificial offerings He took them to Himself."
Think of this image of "fire tried" gold or silver. When these precious metals are mined from the earth, other minerals or rocks accompany them. By fire, these impurities are separated, and the pure gold or silver remains. In the same sense, a soul containing the impurities of venial sin or hurts caused by sin will first be purified, i.e. "fire tried." Perhaps a more modern version would be the idea of radiation therapy "burning" out the cancer cells; while such therapy is very painful, one has the hope of returning to good health.
In a more positive light, St. Francis de Sales wrote of the sufferings of Purgatory, but as they are mitigated by the consolations which accompany them: "We may draw from the thought of Purgatory more consolation than apprehension. The greater part of those who dread Purgatory so much think more of their own interests than of the interests of God’s glory; this proceeds from the fact that they think only of the sufferings without considering the peace and happiness which are there enjoyed by the holy souls. It is true that the torments are so great that the most acute sufferings of this life bear no comparison to them; but the interior satisfaction which is there enjoyed is such that no prosperity nor contentment upon earth can equal it. The souls are in a continual union with God." (Espirit de St. Francois de Sales, IX, p. 16, quoted in Purgatory by Rev. F. X. Shouppe, S.J.)
Similarly, in Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II related God's "living flame of Love" spoken of by St. John of the Cross with the doctrine of Purgatory: "The 'living flame of love,' of which St. John speaks, is above all a purifying fire. The mystical nights described by this great Doctor of the Church on the basis of his own experience corresponds, in a certain sense, to Purgatory. God makes man pass through such an interior purgatory of his sensual and spiritual nature in order to bring him into union with Himself. Here we do not find ourselves before a mere tribunal. We present ourselves before the power of love itself. Before all else, it is Love that judges. God, who is Love, judges through love. It is love that demands purification, before man can be made ready for that union with God which is his ultimate vocation and destiny."
Therefore, once again, we are left with a very positive image of Purgatory. Nevertheless, the old pictures of the suffering souls in the fires of Purgatory should motivate us now to regularly examine our conscience, go to confession, and do penance. We need the graces that come forth through prayer and especially the Holy Eucharist. We must strive for holiness now and keep a strong and close union to the Lord. Such an attitude and such practices will be the best preparation for when we leave this world and have to account for our lives before our Lord.
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What Is Purgatory Like?
Warm?
Purgatory is not found in the Bible. References to suffering refer to this earth, and trial by fire occurs at the final judgment. Trusting in Christ's shed blood for salvation provides eternal life from the moment you believe. For those who live and walk with Christ, "to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord." We can do nothing to work for our salvation; Christ has paid it all. We need only trust in his blood to cover our sins and repent.
There are two consequences to sin: the guilt and the offense against God. Not only does one have to make a sincere act of contrition to God for the guilt. An obligation to repair the offense against God is also incurred. Why do you think Our Lord told the parable about wicked servant (Matthew 18)? Also, why does Our Lord say, "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. (Matthew 12: 32)"?
Maybe not the explicit word; neither is Bible, Trinity or Incarnation, but the teaching that Purgatory exists is most definitely in Scripture.
So what exactly did the Crucifixion itself accomplish, if not the substitutionary (re)payment of these two things done on our behalf?
> I think it's like Houston.
Really? I thought purgitory [sic] was a home for wayward bulimics. [No flames please...]
Since purgatory is not mentioned even once in all of Scripture, you are free to invent any fantasies that please you. I guess it is like a week without beer.
*That's not in the bible
LOL!
The idea of Purgatory was invented so that people sitting in Hell can pretend that it is only temporary.
Christ paid the price for our sins. I think that anyone who believes that they can atone for their own sins very well may be headed for a place where there will indeed be punishment for their sins, but it will have no atoning effect.
For those who are truly headed for heaven, Christ paid the price and took the punishment for all their sins on the cross. To claim that he did not do enough, to claim that there is still punishment for believers, to claim that it is not a finished work is to disbelieve in Christ. For that sin there will be punishment. It will not be temporary.
Nor is "incarnation" or "bible". But all three are "in" the Sacred Scriptures
References to suffering refer to this earth, and trial by fire occurs at the final judgment.
The Scriptures don't say that our trial by fire will occur at the final judgment. Also, why do people pray for the dead souls? Why does Paul talk about the practice of being baptized for the sake of dead souls who were NOT baptized? Where is the sin that will be forgiven AFTER death forgiven then? Christianity has always believed, through their practice, that there is a third state of existence after death. A place of purgation. A place before we enter heaven. This is historical as well as Biblical.
We can do nothing to work for our salvation; Christ has paid it all.
Ah. Yes, we agree there. But I believe that you misundestand what a "work" is. Paul tells us a work is something we do because we expect payment. Romans 4:4. It is something we do for a wage. NO ONE can obligate God. But Paul NEVER says we must do good deeds. He says we MUST love. So does John and James and Peter. Jesus mentions that as well. WITHOUT LOVE, FAITH IS NOTHING - 1 Cor 13:2. Forget about Once Saved - Always Saved. Paul refutes that in many places, but try reading about all those "saved" people in 1 Cor 10:1-12, our EXAMPLES. I especially direct you to the catch line, 1 Cor 10:12. Persevere, brother. Don't presume.
We need only trust in his blood to cover our sins and repent.
If only it was so easy. If only Christ said to "take the wide path". If only "picking up our cross daily" meant to merely believe on the blood of Christ! You have no idea of what discipleship is...Trusting in God does not lead us to love others, to turn our lives to God entirely. He demands that He reigns in our lives. I trust that my car will start in the morning. That doesn't mean that I let my car direct my life! It is much more than that, brother...
Regards
All of them? So everyone is going to heaven?
I think that anyone who believes that they can atone for their own sins very well may be headed for a place where there will indeed be punishment for their sins, but it will have no atoning effect.
You are confused, because Catholics don't believe we can atone for our own sins. The confusion appears to be in APPLYING the work of Christ to our own subjective situation. Our sins are forgiven conditionally - namely, we must repent, correct? We must repent in the sense of conversion, correct? Otherwise, see my first statement. Hell would be empty.
For those who are truly headed for heaven, Christ paid the price and took the punishment for all their sins on the cross.
Purgatory doesn't deny that. Purgatory is the RESULT of Christ's mercy. He gives us who are imperfect the final opportunity to perfect ourselves - to remove those sinful desires that we continue to fight against. We must become holy to see God. Nothing unclean shall enter heaven. We must be transformed. We do this through God's Spirit and applying the effects of the Passion and Death to ourselves through prayer, through the sacraments, by becoming more virtuous as a result of Christ working within us. But most of us will not complete this transformation here - thus - in God's great mercy, we are given a view of God, the eyeopener, and blessed beyond hope by then cleansing us from our imperfections that still remain.
You really think you will live in God's presence for eternity with sinful desires on your heart? With attachments to creatures or money? Please. God and sin will not co-exist in heaven. And forget about "covering us with the blood of Christ". God is not some old fool who can be tricked into believing we are clean when we are not. God's Word ACCOMPLISHES what it sets out to do - which includes MAKING us holy. Christ's Blood is the REASON why we will be in heaven, but God expects us to willingly BECOME like Him. Without Christ's Blood, we cannot become holy. But holy, we must become. Not pretend holiness.
Regards
So it is not finished.
Always good to hear from the Bible-thumpers!
Evangelicals and fundamentalists always quote this "Bible verse," but it isn't really in the Bible.
Paul writes that he would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord, not that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". Big, big, BIG difference. The first says "[I want] A and B"; the second says "A implies B".
Just a pet peeve of mine. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" is no more found in the Bible than the word "purgatory" is.
The general redemption is finished. The application of the redemption to you as an individual most certainly isn't finished. If it had been finished on Calvary, there would clearly have been no need for you to believe, repent, be baptized, pray, read Scripture, go to church ... etc.
General redemption? So nothing was actually accomplished at the cross? He just kinda laid the groundwork so that you could work your own way to heaven?
Well, you'd better get to work.
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