Posted on 11/17/2005 4:35:36 PM PST by COBOL2Java
For a couple of weeks now, you have discussed Purgatory. Do we know what happens in Purgatory? I was at the Franciscan Monastery and in the catacomb area they have a chapel for the poor souls in Purgatory which shows them in fire. Is this true of Purgatory? A reader in Washington
What does this purification entail? Like Hell, there is the pain of loss and the pain of sense: however, the severity of these pains between Hell and Purgatory is vastly different. The pain of loss for those in Purgatory is the temporary deprivation of the Beatific Vision. Each of us longs to be with God, see Him, and be enwrapped in His love. The Apostolic Constitution Benedictus Deus (1336) promulgated by Pope Benedict XII, defined that the souls of the just "...see the divine essence with an intuitive vision and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature by way of object of vision; rather, the divine essence immediately manifests itself to them, plainly, clearly, and openly, and in this vision they enjoy the divine essence." Therefore, the souls in Purgatory long for this vision. That longing and deprivation is what torments their soul.
The pain of sense involves some sensible suffering. While not defined, traditionally this pain of sense has involved some purifying fire, which causes torment. In the Book of the Prophet Zechariah, the Lord spoke, "I will bring the one third through fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and I will test them as gold is tested" (13:9); the School of Rabbi Shammai interpreted this passage as a purification of the soul through God's mercy and goodness, preparing it for eternal life. A similar passage is found in the Book of Wisdom (3:1-9): "The souls of the just are in the hand of God, and no torment shall touch them. ...Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of Himself. As gold in the furnace, He proved them, and as sacrificial offerings He took them to Himself."
Think of this image of "fire tried" gold or silver. When these precious metals are mined from the earth, other minerals or rocks accompany them. By fire, these impurities are separated, and the pure gold or silver remains. In the same sense, a soul containing the impurities of venial sin or hurts caused by sin will first be purified, i.e. "fire tried." Perhaps a more modern version would be the idea of radiation therapy "burning" out the cancer cells; while such therapy is very painful, one has the hope of returning to good health.
In a more positive light, St. Francis de Sales wrote of the sufferings of Purgatory, but as they are mitigated by the consolations which accompany them: "We may draw from the thought of Purgatory more consolation than apprehension. The greater part of those who dread Purgatory so much think more of their own interests than of the interests of Gods glory; this proceeds from the fact that they think only of the sufferings without considering the peace and happiness which are there enjoyed by the holy souls. It is true that the torments are so great that the most acute sufferings of this life bear no comparison to them; but the interior satisfaction which is there enjoyed is such that no prosperity nor contentment upon earth can equal it. The souls are in a continual union with God." (Espirit de St. Francois de Sales, IX, p. 16, quoted in Purgatory by Rev. F. X. Shouppe, S.J.)
Similarly, in Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II related God's "living flame of Love" spoken of by St. John of the Cross with the doctrine of Purgatory: "The 'living flame of love,' of which St. John speaks, is above all a purifying fire. The mystical nights described by this great Doctor of the Church on the basis of his own experience corresponds, in a certain sense, to Purgatory. God makes man pass through such an interior purgatory of his sensual and spiritual nature in order to bring him into union with Himself. Here we do not find ourselves before a mere tribunal. We present ourselves before the power of love itself. Before all else, it is Love that judges. God, who is Love, judges through love. It is love that demands purification, before man can be made ready for that union with God which is his ultimate vocation and destiny."
Therefore, once again, we are left with a very positive image of Purgatory. Nevertheless, the old pictures of the suffering souls in the fires of Purgatory should motivate us now to regularly examine our conscience, go to confession, and do penance. We need the graces that come forth through prayer and especially the Holy Eucharist. We must strive for holiness now and keep a strong and close union to the Lord. Such an attitude and such practices will be the best preparation for when we leave this world and have to account for our lives before our Lord.
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Nobody said anything about "working your own way to heaven". Clearly the redemption has to be applied to specific individuals in time.
Well, you'd better get to work.
If there's literally nothing left to be done by anyone (including God) because everything was accomplished 2000 years ago, we're all engaging in a vast waste of time, money, land, effort, lives ...
But that's clearly not consistent with Scripture, so why do you believe it?
Why? Are you trying to work your way into heaven? Didn't Jesus do it all?
...and if God decides you've been bad, you go to Baltimore.
Yep.
Why? Are you trying to work your way into heaven? Didn't Jesus do it all?
My ticket has already been purchased. Christ paid the price. I am simply continuing in his word and tarrying until he comes. Just keeping busy until the train arrives.
Not for you. Paul didn't think it was over for him while alive, either
"I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." (1 Cor 9:27)
Christ calls us to be disciples. Read the Gospel of Mark if you are interested in the NECESSITY of becoming servants to others. Christ tells us over and over we must become like Him.
Regards
Your way sounds pretty cozy and easy - and just wrong. I am sure that this is what Christ meant when He said "pick up your cross daily and follow Me", or "follow the narrow road".
Brother, I urge you to re-visit the Gospels with a prayerful heart and reconsider whether we are just meant to "wait around"...
Regards
Is that supposed to be a "work"? I thought it was a privilege. Didn't Jesus say "My yoke is easy and my burden is light?" Or is that something that has been mistranslated?
Am I supposed to hate stuff like going to church, reading the bible and praying? Is that supposed to be a great burden upon my shoulders such that it will help Jesus in atoning for my sins?
What "works" do you do that are such a punishing burden upon your soul that it helps you to redeem yourself from your sins?
Not only do they say that there is nothing good in man, but that man, EVEN WITH CHRIST WITHIN US, can do nothing good. Basically, we can do nothing because we are unable to respond to the graces of God. Thus, the need for an imputed righteousness, a legal declaration, although the person is still sinful and incapable of doing good with Christ.
So, Protestant salvation is a substitutionary justification in which the sinner is clothed in righteousness. Catholic salvation is an actual transformatory justification in which humans are literally transformed. Any transformation that remains after death is taken care of in purgatory or, what the Orthodox would called the process of divinization.
You summed it up very well. According to some Protestants, man cannot be righteous, even if God is the driving force within them, placing inside them the will and desire to do God's good purposes. (Phil 2:12-13)
Regards
Love is "easy". Following rules out of external commands to OBLIGATE God to 'owe' us is a burden. Working for wages is burdensome. Loving God and others is the Way of the Savior. We are to become like Christ, a servant. We are to die to ourselves. This goes beyond "I am just waiting around until God calls me home" idea you seem to have. DYING to yourself means leaving the ego behind and becoming a servant. This is the call Christ makes to us.
Am I supposed to hate stuff like going to church, reading the bible and praying?
All of that is MEANINGLESS if you are not transformed internally. Our religious experiences boil down to charity and justice. Catholics and many other Protestants will hear from the Gospel of Matthew 25:31-46, the parable of the sheep and the goats, this Sunday. Our entire life boils down to whether we are led to this conversion that changes us. If you aren't changed, converted, you have nothing. Without love, Paul says, we are nothing (1 Cor 13:2).
What "works" do you do that are such a punishing burden upon your soul that it helps you to redeem yourself from your sins?
I don't do any "works", because I cannot obligate God to pay me anything. Love comes from Christ, just as faith does. With your idea that your "faith" saves you, you are now doing the very thing that Paul says we are NOT to do in Romans - obligating God. Your presumptuous attitude is demanding salvation as a payment from God through your "work" of faith.
Regards
Is Baltimore worse than Houston? I haven't been there in many years.
Thanks for the info! I'll put Baltimore on my list of places that I'd rather starve than live there!
BTTT
Your definition of the Reformation view ("nothing good left in us") is way off base, but your summary above is good re justification by itself. It is weak because it does not take into account the Reformation view of ongoing sanctification or the final glorification. Both of those appear to be inclusive to your definition of "Catholic salvation". If we want to make this an apples-to-apples comparison, we need to match up that entire redemptive process (from first repentance to final restoration/transformation) across both parties' theologies.
Always good to hear from the name-callers!/s
bttt
Neither is New Jersey. Yet here I am :)
You sure New Jersey isn't Purgatory?
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