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Back to the Beginning: A Brief Introduction to the Ancient Catholic Church
Catholic Education ^ | November 21, 2005 | GEORGE SIM JOHNSTON

Posted on 11/21/2005 11:58:28 AM PST by NYer

The culture is now flooded with bogus scholarship whose main purpose is to put Christianity — and especially orthodox Catholicism — on the defensive. But most Catholics have no idea how to respond, and more than a few take these books and documentaries at face value. After all, they have the imprimatur of the History Channel or a large publishing house like Doubleday.



In his famous review of Leopold von Ranke's History of the Popes, Thomas Babington Macaulay, the great Victorian essayist, launches into a purple passage that Catholic students once knew by heart. It is one of the great set pieces of English writing. In it he voices the opinion that there is no subject more worthy of study than the Roman Catholic Church. "The history of that Church," he writes, "joins together the two great ages of human civilization. No other institution is left standing which carries the mind back to the times when the smoke of sacrifice rose from the Pantheon.... The proudest royal houses are but of yesterday, when compared with the line of the Supreme Pontiffs."

Macaulay keeps laying it on, awestruck by the Church's perdurance through the centuries. The rhetorical excess is particularly striking coming from an agnostic who regarded history as a steady climb from religious obscurantism to secular enlightenment. But Macaulay's point is always worth making: No institution in history is remotely comparable to the Catholic Church. It is a subject that well repays study. And yet most Catholics know very little about their own history.

This is unfortunate for many reasons, but especially today, when a dinner-party conversation can suddenly turn to some specious best-seller that presumes to rewrite Church history. The culture is now flooded with bogus scholarship whose main purpose is to put Christianity — and especially orthodox Catholicism — on the defensive. But most Catholics have no idea how to respond, and more than a few take these books and documentaries at face value. After all, they have the imprimatur of the History Channel or a large publishing house like Doubleday.


The new wave of anti-Catholic "scholarship" predictably revisits hot-button topics like the Inquisition and Galileo; but increasingly its focus is on the first centuries of Christianity. Its object is to make the early Church look like a bad mistake, a betrayal of Jesus' intentions, a conspiracy of dead white males obsessed with controlling their followers and, even worse, putting a lid on everyone's sexual fulfillment.


The new wave of anti-Catholic "scholarship" predictably revisits hot-button topics like the Inquisition and Galileo; but increasingly its focus is on the first centuries of Christianity. Its object is to make the early Church look like a bad mistake, a betrayal of Jesus' intentions, a conspiracy of dead white males obsessed with controlling their followers and, even worse, putting a lid on everyone's sexual fulfillment. Post-apostolic Christianity is portrayed as elitist, anti-feminist, and intent on mindless conformity — in contrast, say, to the second-century Gnostics, who apparently were as sexually enlightened as any modern professor who contributes to the Jesus Seminar.

The media have a sharp appetite for this recycling of 19th-century, anti-clerical scholarship, and so books by scholars like Gary Wills and Elaine Pagels get maximum exposure. And then there is The Da Vinci Code, which has sold a staggering nine million copies. Both the New York Times and National Public Radio seem to think that it is based on historical fact. Even its author appears to think so. But a book that claims that Christians did not believe in the divinity of Christ until the fourth century, that a Roman emperor chose the four Gospels, that the Church executed five million witches, and that Opus Dei has monks is obviously little more than a farrago of nonsense.

We live in a sea of false historiography, and so it is worth asking: What exactly happened during the first centuries of Christianity? How did a small band of believers, starting out in a despised outpost of the Roman Empire, end up the dominant institution of the Mediterranean world? What was "primitive Christianity"? John Henry Newman became a Catholic in the course of answering that question. History, he said, is the enemy of Protestantism. It is also the enemy of the newly vigorous anti-Catholicism that circulates among our cultural elites.

  

In the Beginning

The word gospel means "good news," and the first thing to say about the early Church is that its members had an urgent message for a civilization that already contained the seeds of its own demise. Early Christianity was above all a missionary enterprise, an evangelical movement in a world ripe for its teachings. At the end of his public life Christ had said to His disciples, "Go"; and, in addition to the journeys recorded in the New Testament, tradition has the apostles spreading all over the map: Thomas to Parthia and India, Andrew and John to Asia Minor, Bartholomew to south Arabia. Each may have undergone exploits as spectacular as St. Paul's, but unfortunately there was no St. Luke to record them.

Early Church Fathers like St. Augustine believed that Providence had arranged ancient history so that Christianity could spread as rapidly as possible. The Pax Romana was a remarkable achievement, and the general law and order, combined with Roman road-building, made it easier to get around Europe at the time of Tiberius and Claudius than it would be a thousand years later. There was also a widespread Hellenistic culture, which meant that many people spoke Greek. This was the legacy of Alexander the Great, who not only spread a common tongue but, like other rulers of that era, had a mania for building cities. The large concentration of urban dwellers made evangelization more efficient, and within the space of about a century we find Christianity flourishing in all the vital nerve-centers of the Roman empire, which had a population of about 60 million.

The great tipping points of history often occur beneath the radar, and it is doubtful that anyone in the year 51 noticed an itinerant rabbi from Tarsus crossing the Aegean Sea into Macedonia. But this was Christianity's entrance into Western Europe, with incalculable consequences for the future. Christopher Dawson writes that Paul's passage from Troas in Asia Minor to Philippi did more to shape the subsequent history of Europe than anything recorded by the great historians of the day. Put simply: The Faith created modern Europe, and Europe created the modern world.

What Paul and other missionaries found everywhere in the Roman Empire was a spiritual vacuum: The Roman gods, practically speaking, were dead, the victims of much scoffing from intellectuals and poets. The upper orders had turned to Stoicism — self-cultivating itself in aristocratic isolation — but this spoke only to a small minority. Others with spiritual hankerings went to more dubious sources: mystery cults, Asiatic magic, exotic neo-Platonisms, whose goal was ecstatic visions and emotional release. There was a lot of philosophical mumbo jumbo in an atmosphere of tent revivalism, with a dash of emperor worship on the side. But no matter where it turned for solace, the late classical mind was steeped in melancholy, a kind of glacial sadness; it was utterly lacking in what Catholics would call the theological virtue of hope.


Since The Da Vinci Code and other dubious best-sellers claim that early Christianity was anti-feminist, it's worth recalling that large numbers of women during these centuries thought otherwise....No world religion has ever given women a more important place than Roman Catholicism.


Apart from offering infinitely greater spiritual riches, Christianity gave the ancient world what might be called a New Deal. In the year that Paul arrived in Rome, there was a sensational incident, the sort of thing that today would make the cover of the New York Post. The prefect of Rome, Pedanius Secundus, was murdered by a slave who was jealous of his master's attention to a slave girl. According to Roman law, all the slaves in the household were to be put to death — which in this case meant more than 400 slaves. There were protests, but the emperor and Senate went ahead with the executions. It is not surprising, then, that the "have-nots," who constituted most of the empire, responded to the Christian message that every person has an equal and inherent dignity, and that even the emperor (as St. Ambrose would later explain to Theodosius) was within and not above the law.

Since The Da Vinci Code and other dubious best-sellers claim that early Christianity was anti-feminist, it's worth recalling that large numbers of women during these centuries thought otherwise. The Church's teachings about marriage and family, along with its strictures against divorce, abortion, and the exposure of newborn babies — all of which a pagan husband could force his wife to do, no questions asked — resonated with women who were treated like chattel under the old dispensation. In the Acts of the Apostles, Luke goes out of his way to mention female converts like Lydia and Damaris. Even at this early date, women played a key role in the Church's evangelical mission. No world religion has ever given women a more important place than Roman Catholicism. Even Protestantism would turn out to be largely a male enterprise.

  

Preserving the Traditions

These early Christians were conscious of a single responsibility that transcended and sustained all others. They were bound to preserve with the utmost fidelity what had been taught by the apostles. Long before there was a New Testament, there was a deposit of faith concerning the nature of God, His threefold personality, His purpose in making man, the Incarnation. It is already presupposed in the early letters of Paul as well as ancient documents like the Didache. Any departure from these teachings provoked the strongest possible response, and the Acts of the Apostles and most of Paul's letters show the Church facing her first doctrinal and disciplinary problems.

The determination to hold fast to "what has been handed on" (tradere, hence "tradition") is one explanation for the early Christian's veneration of the episcopal office. If there has been a revelation, then there must be an authoritative teaching office to tell us what it is. And so the role of bishops — whose job was, and still is, to teach, govern, and sanctify — was crucial from the beginning.

We do not know the precise details of how the Church's internal authority evolved in the first century. It is one of the most debated points of Church history. Protestants have an obvious bias toward an early congregationalism, but there is little evidence for this. We do know that from the original "twelve" there soon emerged a hierarchical church divided into clergy and laity. It seems that at first there were apostolic delegates, people like Timothy and Titus, who derived their authority from one of the apostles — in this case, Paul. These men governed the local churches under the apostles' direction, and, while some apostles were still on the scene, this arrangement naturally evolved into the college of bishops.


What was "primitive Christianity"? John Henry Newman became a Catholic in the course of answering that question. History, he said, is the enemy of Protestantism. It is also the enemy of the newly vigorous anti-Catholicism that circulates among our cultural elites.


The seven great letters of St. Ignatius of Antioch, written around the year 106 while on his way to Rome to be thrown to the beasts, take for granted the existence of local hierarchical churches, ruled by bishops who are assisted by priests and deacons. Ignatius, a living disciple of John the Apostle, writes that "Jesus Christ...is the will of the Father, just as the bishops, who have been appointed throughout the world, are the will of Jesus Christ. Let us be careful, then, if we would be submissive to God, not to oppose the bishop."

Within each city there was a single church under a bishop, who in turn was assisted by priests in the spiritual realm and deacons in the administrative. The latter devoted themselves especially to alms-giving, and a striking feature of primitive Christianity is its organized benevolence. These local churches were largely self-sufficient but would group around a mother church in the region — Antioch, Alexandria, Rome — and the bishops of each region would occasionally meet in councils. But they all considered themselves part of a universal Church — the Catholic Church, as Ignatius first called it — united in belief, ritual, and regulation.

From the earliest times we find one of these churches exercising a special role, acting as a higher authority and final court of appeal. We don't know much about the early development of the Roman church, and the lists of the first popes are not always consistent. But we do know that around the year 90 a three-man embassy bearing a letter from Rome traveled to Corinth, where there were dissensions in the local church. In that letter, Pope St. Clement speaks with authority, giving instructions in a tone of voice that expects to be obeyed. The interesting point is that the apostle John was still living in Ephesus, which is closer than Rome to Corinth. But it was Rome (at the time, a smaller diocese) that dealt with the problem. Here was the prototype of all future Roman interventions.

It is not difficult to find even liberal Catholic scholars who endorse the early primacy of Rome. In his popular history of the papacy, Saints and Sinners, Eamon Duffy writes that the apostolic succession of the Chair of Peter "rests on traditions which stretch back to the very beginning of the written records of Christianity." Around the year 180, St. Irenaeus, battling heretics who presumed to correct and supplement the Faith with their Gnostic speculations, wrote that if anyone wishes to know true Christian doctrine, he has only to find those churches with a line of bishops going back to one of the apostles. But it is simpler, and suffices, to find out the teaching of the Roman see: "For with this Church all other churches must bring themselves into line, on account of its superior authority."

  

Worship in the Ancient Church

The early Church was not only hierarchical, it was liturgical and sacramental. But it was above all Eucharistic. St. Ignatius, in his letter to the church at Smyrna, attacks local heretics who "abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of Our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins...." By the year 150, when St. Justin Martyr described the Sunday liturgy in some detail, all the principal elements of the Mass are in place: Scriptural readings, prayers of intercession, offertory, Eucharistic prayer, and communion. There was no need back then to remind the faithful that Sunday Mass attendance was obligatory, since they regarded the liturgy as absolutely central to their lives as Christians. It would not have occurred to them to forgo Sunday Mass for a brunch date or ballgame.

The readings at these early Masses were from both the Old Testament (then simply called "Scripture") and from many (but not all) of the documents that eventually would comprise the New Testament. And how did the New Testament canon come together? Although some Protestants seem to think otherwise, this was not a spontaneous process. Humanly speaking, it involved a lot of institutional machinery. The 27 books themselves were a kind of providential accident. Christ Himself did not write anything, nor (so far as we know) did He tell His disciples to write anything. There is, after all, something about hearing, rather than just reading, the Christian message. "Faith comes by hearing," writes Paul, who, even though a scholar, does not say "by reading." Books are wonderful evangelical tools, but it is still true that most conversions are brought about by personal witness.

In the ancient Middle East, the preferred medium for passing on the teachings of a religious master was oral, and people had strongly trained memories. Christ spoke in the traditional rhythms of Jewish speech, often using parallelisms that are easy to remember: "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." The Old Testament is shot through with this kind of mnemonic device. Christ's immediate disciples probably did not write down His words during His lifetime. Being a close-knit Jewish community with a strong oral tradition, they didn't have to.

But as time went by and the Church spread out, the danger of inaccurate reporting grew. This was especially true when Christianity moved into the Greek-speaking cities of Asia Minor and Macedon, where the habit of oral transmission was not strong. So the practice of giving the earliest Christian missionaries little books, or manuals, with the sayings and miracles of Jesus may have arisen. If there was such a document, it has not survived. Yet scholars reasonably posit an ur-document they call Q, which is said to be a sourcebook for the Gospels.

So far so good. But now the mischief begins. For heterodox academics, Q is a wonderfully convenient document. Since we don't have a copy, they can ascribe to it whatever they think authentic in the four Gospels and dismiss everything else as later interpolations. According to this scenario, the Gospel writers took a hard historical document and added a lot of mythology. The Jesus Seminar, which plays the media like a wind instrument, assumes a priori that Jesus was not divine, did not perform miracles, never intended to found a church, and did not take a hard line on extramarital sex. And so it flatly asserts that none of these things was in Q. According to this view, the later Gospels, with their miracles and claims of Christ's divinity, were concocted for selfaggrandizing purposes by power-hungry churchmen.

But we may leave the Jesus Seminar to find out what really happened. First, the scholarly consensus is that the three synoptic Gospels were written much earlier than heterodox "experts" wish us to think: Between 50 and 65 A.D. John's Gospel was written last, perhaps as late as 95, when John, the only apostle not martyred, was a very old man. More than any documents in history, these four books have been the target of the "hermeneutics of suspicion." It is therefore worth pointing out that the four evangelists were closer to their material than were most ancient historians. The biographers of the caesars — Tacitus and Suetonius — were not better placed to get accurate information about their subject than were the evangelists about the life of Christ.

Even though the four Gospel writers differ markedly from one another and have diverse agendas — Matthew is proselytizing his fellow Jews, Luke is fact-gathering for Gentile converts, Mark relates Peter's version of events, John is responding to heresies that deny the Incarnation — the striking thing is how strong, consistent, and identifiable the personality of Christ is in all four books. C. S. Lewis remarks that in all the world's narrative literature, there are three personalities you can identify immediately if given a random and even partial quotation: Plato's Socrates, Boswell's Johnson, and Jesus Christ of the Gospels.

Most of the documents in the New Testament are ad hoc; they address specific issues that arose in the early Church, and none claims to present the whole of Christian revelation. It's doubtful that Paul even suspected that his short letter to Philemon begging pardon for a renegade slave would someday be read as Holy Scripture. Moreover, there is no list of canonical books anywhere in the Bible, nor does any book (with the exception of John's apocalypse) claim to be inspired.

Who, then, decided that these books were Scripture? The Catholic Church. And it took several centuries to do so. It was not until the letters and decrees of two popes and three regional councils near the end of the fourth century that the Catholic Church had a fixed canon. Prior to that date, scores of spurious gospels and "apostolic" writings were circulating around the Mediterranean basin: The Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary, Paul's Letter to the Laodiceans, and so forth. Moreover, some texts later judged to be inspired, such as the Letter to the Hebrews, were controverted, and there were also cogent arguments to jettison the Old Testament. All these issues were sorted out by the hierarchy, and, as Augustine logically remarks, it is only on the authority of the Catholic Church that we accept any book of Scripture.

  

A Theological Parasite


To paraphrase Hilaire Belloc, there was no such thing as a religion called "primitive Christianity." There is and always has been the Church, founded by Christ around the year 30 A.D. That Church has always been hierarchical and sacramental. And it saved Western Europe from both pagan barbarism and Eastern nihilism.


One set of writings that did not make the canon were the so-called Gnostic gospels, which get such loving attention in PBS documentaries. Ancient Gnosticism is enjoying a bull market among modern intellectuals, but the early Church fought it tooth-and-nail because it correctly perceived how dangerous it was. It was an amorphous creed — an intellectual atmosphere, really — that had its roots in India and Persia. It purported to be a way of knowledge (gnosis), of seizing divine secrets and harnessing divine energies. It solved the problem of evil by claiming that the universe was not God's creation, but the work of a demiurge — some lower god or angel up to no good — and that all physical creation, especially the human body, is intrinsically evil.

Mired in the evil of creation, the Gnostic sought liberation by joining an elite band of believers who through gnosis — arcane speculation, philosophical pirouetting, secret verbal formulas — sought to obtain Promethean control of the spiritual realm. The object was a mystical knowledge that separated the believer not only from the corrupt world but also (and even better) from his neighbors. The initiate, moreover, was above sexual taboos, since the body is of no account. The resulting mixture of hedonism and mystical exclusivity was heady stuff, and the power of Gnosticism to assimilate elements from any source — Platonism, Persian dualism, even Judaism — made it very dangerous when it encountered Christianity and tried to subsume it into a higher and more beguiling synthesis.

Gnosticism's attempt to insert itself into Christianity involved the production of its own scripture, which it tried to smuggle into the Christian canon. The most famous Gnostic text, the Gospel of Thomas, comprises 114 "secret" sayings of Jesus. You don't have to read more than a few of them to recognize that the author has simply skimmed material from the original Gospels and given it a strange "spiritual" twist. Christ is now something of a Magus, a shadowy dispenser of puzzles and gnomic utterances. He bears no resemblance to the Christ of the four evangelists.

In her best-selling books, Pagels makes much of these "forbidden gospels" whose message — despite the occasional anti-feminist hiccup — gives her a fuzzy inner feeling. It seems that the modern Gnostic can retreat into a cozy realm of the spirit and then do whatever he or she pleases. There are no dogmas or commandments to scandalize the post-Christian academic mind. Pagels plays down the intellectual rubbish in these documents, and she's not entirely forthcoming about their elitism and anti-Jewish bias. And finally, it's ridiculous to speak of the Church's exclusion of these spurious second-century documents as a power play by a self-appointed male hierarchy bent on eliminating genuine spiritual impulses. Pagels ought to read the lives of the saints, which include not a few early popes and bishops.

  

How the Church Saved Civilization

The Church did Western civilization a huge favor in beating back these esoteric, anti-humanist ideas, as it would in the 13th century when it crushed the Cathar heresy, another nihilistic doctrine that had blown into Europe on the winds from Persia. In fact, no institution has done more for the surrounding culture than the Catholic Church. And it is identifiably itself from the beginning. To paraphrase Hilaire Belloc, there was no such thing as a religion called "primitive Christianity." There is and always has been the Church, founded by Christ around the year 30 A.D. That Church has always been hierarchical and sacramental. And it saved Western Europe from both pagan barbarism and Eastern nihilism.

In fact, almost everything we value in our civilization — hospitals, museums, universities, the idea of human rights — is by origin Catholic. These things did not come from the Vikings or northern German tribes; they certainly did not come from the Gnostics. But our modern secular culture displays a willful amnesia on the subject of our Catholic patrimony. The technocrats currently drafting a new constitution for the European Union don't even want to hear about it. As Chesterton quipped, first Catholic, then forgotten. Perhaps we can change that by getting out a clearer picture of the splendors and perils of the early Church.


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Ecumenism; History; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: churchhistory
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To: Kolokotronis; djrakowski; x5452
As Orthodox, we believe that the Roman system has lead to error and innovation but we also recognize the historical fact that the proper exercise of the Petrine Office also, on numerous occasions in the Pre Schism Church, assured the survival of Orthodoxy against the assaults of heretical groups

And that is a very important point to remember! Orthodoxy, as well as Roman Catholicism, by and of themselves did not stop heresy. Obviously, the Church is stronger when it is united. A divided Church in not immune from corruption and fallout, and history proves it.

Were it not for the Orthodox Popes, the East would most probaly have slipped into Monothelism or Arianism, or Monophysitism, as what happened with the so-called Oriental Orthodox Churches. At the same time, it is obvious that had the Latin Church not fallen victim to its own innovations, the Protestant tragedy would most probably have been averted. But by that time the whole concept of the Petrine Office was redefined and the Orthodoxy was not there to counter-balance their errors.

It is therefore obvious that only an undivided Church can resist the gates of hell. As the saying says -- united, we stand; divided, we fall. The hierarchs of both sides of the divide now more than ever recognize it and are bent on overcoming that which divides us.

51 posted on 11/22/2005 5:46:54 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: notsofastmyfriend
I find that I am very interested in the history of the Church - do you have any recommendations on a book to read this holiday season?

Oh my ... where to begin? An excellent resource is Ignatius Press. And, of course, EWTN's Religious Catalog

52 posted on 11/22/2005 6:04:34 AM PST by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: djrakowski

You pick at obscure eastern church on the footsteps of full communion with the Roman church and use that as the pinnical of Orthodoxy?

The fact is there are Catholic bishops openly endorse homosexuality, contraception, abortion, etc. The Catholic bishop is the make and break of doctrine within the diocease.

I am well aware the 'official word' on Catholisim I had my Catholic education in a Catholic school with Catholic education materials. I am also extremely aware that precious few Catholics follow this.

Even if Catholic DID follow it to the letter it would not change the fact that Catholic innovations like papal supremacy, papal infailibility, and the Filioque are heretical.

The Roman church abandoned the truth in 1054 and the result was protestantism, and things like today's rampant homosexuality and child abuse in the church.

It is this continuing heresy that is the root of the Catholic church's problem.

The Orthodox church has Christ as it's head. The Catholics instead have a man (and one who has long since been outside the bloodline of Peter).


53 posted on 11/22/2005 6:09:42 AM PST by x5452
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To: djrakowski; x5452; Kolokotronis; Agrarian
I see nothing about the sacrament of marriage in this description of divorce and remarriage within Orthodoxy - only situations

Well, if there is no love and commitment there is no marriage. A paper does not make a marriage, and a sacrament that is given under false pretenses is not valid because we would say it is "empty," and you would say it is "null and void." Of course, that which is void is also empty and meaningless and therefore, legally, not valid.

A candle lit in a church by someone who doesn't believe is an empty gesture, void of spiritual value. A Communion taken by someone who did not prepare correctly for it and doe snot believe in the Real Presence is not a valid Communion.

You see it from a legalistic point of view -- and call it annulment. You are stating that the sacrament never occurred, that it did not have a "legal bind," did not take effect, so to say, and therefore there was no marriage. The Orthodox are saying that a "marriage" in which there is no love and commitment is no marriage, but a broken promise to God -- a sin, and that which is sin is not of God.

Thus, real marriage cannot be broken because it is of God. All the Orthodox Church recognizes is that there was no marriage because where there is no love and commitment there can be no marriage. If you go for a confession and lie and the priest, in his ignorance of your lie, "absolves" you of the trespasses -- you and I both know that such absolution is "invalid." It is an empty gesture which the priests does in good faith, but God knows that it is not so. So, the absolution never took place; your sins are not forgiven. Legally, it is null and void, and spiritually it is an empty and meaningless gesture -- a sin.

One more thing: the Orthodox may allow a second marriage; allowing a third one is something unheard of. Knowing that a sin was committed in the first one, the second (and it is hoped that it is the first real) one is more like a funeral, full of penance and contrition.

On the other hand, the Catholic Church does not specify how many annulments one can get, but I am sure an "abuser" would be cut short very soon, regardless of how many time one can "legally" get an annulment!

54 posted on 11/22/2005 6:19:16 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; djrakowski; Kolokotronis; Agrarian
For reference here is the same scriptural passages both Churches base the possibility of remarriage on:

Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Mat 19:7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?

Mat 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Mat 19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with [his] wife, it is not good to marry.

Mat 19:11 But he said unto them, All [men] cannot receive this saying, save [they] to whom it is given.

1Cr 7:7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

1Cr 7:8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.

1Cr 7:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

1Cr 7:10 And unto the married I command, [yet] not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from [her] husband:

1Cr 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to [her] husband: and let not the husband put away [his] wife.

Both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Doctrine exemplify these passages, and it's silly to debate topics on which the churches already agree.

Ecumenical Relations between Orthodox churches and the Roman catholic church have never been about remarriage or contraception, they've been about Papal Supremacy, and infallibility.
55 posted on 11/22/2005 6:48:33 AM PST by x5452
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To: djrakowski

Welcome home!


56 posted on 11/22/2005 6:59:25 AM PST by nanetteclaret (Our Lady's Hat Society)
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To: Kolokotronis
Dogma isn't dogma until the people accept it. Once accepted, it can't be changed. The only ones to do that were the Romans with the filioque

Dogma wasn't changed with the filioque. It is just a re-wording. But our creed, what is says, remains - we still believe that there is only one principle operating within the Divine Godhead, not two (Father AND Son). Perhaps a better word would have been "through". But at any rate, no dogma changed. The Catechim clearly explains that there is only one essence from which the Spirit proceeds from - and is clear that the Spirit is a result of both the Father and the Son's love for each other.

Brother in Christ

57 posted on 11/22/2005 7:04:49 AM PST by jo kus
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To: Kolokotronis
The Orthodox system is one of "syndeesmos" or a sort of partnership among the hierarchs, clergy and the laity, each having its own function and proper role and together making up The Church. The Roman Church is a top down system. In Orthodoxy, infallibilty rests with The Church while in the Roman system it dogmatically rests with the Pope;

That hardly describes the situation on the ground. A cursory view of the Church's life in the US will shatter the illusion that the Church is top-down here! Consider the many bishops who openly flaunt correction from Rome. If Rome was such an autocratic monarchy that you portray, we'd see bishops removed from office (perhaps many would desire this). As to Councils and Dogma, the Pope has rarely executed the Extraordinary charism that was defined at Vatican 1. I count two occasions in the past 150 years. Not the definition of a top-down organization. The individuals bishops have are relatively autonomous. Sure, occasionaly they must answer to Rome, such as on the priest's sexual abuse issues. But really, Rome is not a force at the local level.

Brother in Christ

58 posted on 11/22/2005 7:11:54 AM PST by jo kus
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To: jo kus
Just read an article in another thread where the pope excommunicated a priest (somewhere in england or Australia i think) that seems like top down correction to me.
59 posted on 11/22/2005 7:16:17 AM PST by x5452
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To: x5452
2 cases of abuse are par for the course, they are not the epidemic (nor the MASSIVE administrative cover up) that has shown itself in the catholic church.

Some comments are in order here.

First, you are confusing what happened in the US with the entire Catholic Church. Despite what many Americans think, we are not the center of the world. The Catholic Church in America represents less than 10% of Roman Catholicism. Let's not lose sight of that fact. America is not the Catholic Church's paradigm!

Second of all, as terrible a job as the Bishops did, one must recognize that part of the problem was the advice they received from PROFESSIONAL psychologists! Upon THEIR advice, the bishops placed these priests in a short 1-2 month program, declared them cured, and sent them to other churches. ONLY NOW do we know that the disease that leads to sexual abuse is akin to alcoholism. It is not "cured" ever. It is only held in check. This doesn't excuse the Bishops actions, but we should take into account what they knew and were told by "experts".

And finally, there is a lot of doubt on the merit of the majority of the cases. While the first cases were certainly legitimate, I think most doubt that 5-10 years later, some of these people suddenly "remembered" that they, too, were abused 30 years ago - and wanted financial compensation. Because of the Church's desire to not defend these priests who were often accused on very flimsy grounds, many lay people were led to believe that they could make an easy buck off the Church's problem.

And finally, one must realize that the Church ALWAYS goes through such scandals. Remember when the Church in the East was nearly all Arian? That's the nature of the beast. Unfortunately, the US bishops of the 1960's were not punished for their open dissent from the "contraception" encyclical. This attitude led, I believe, to the acceptance of the American culture's sexual ways within the Church heirarchy here. This in turn eventually bred the sexual abuse cases. When the Church tries to follow the culture rather than God, the Church inevitably will stumble, whether it is following Greek philosphy or loose sexual morals.

Regards

60 posted on 11/22/2005 7:26:43 AM PST by jo kus
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To: x5452
I am well aware the 'official word' on Catholisim I had my Catholic education in a Catholic school with Catholic education materials.

Then you wrote ...The Orthodox church has Christ as it's head. The Catholics instead have a man (and one who has long since been outside the bloodline of Peter).

I don't know where you "learned" about Catholicism, but that is not what Catholicism teaches. Peter is the VISIBLE head, the sign of unity of the Church, but Christ is the leader of the Church. It is Christ's SPIRIT that guides the Pope and the Bishops and the faithful. Such ignorance does not help matters in the reunion of our churches.

Regards

61 posted on 11/22/2005 7:31:51 AM PST by jo kus
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To: x5452
Just read an article in another thread where the pope excommunicated a priest (somewhere in england or Australia i think) that seems like top down correction to me.

Perhaps you are not aware that the Bible itself provides for such actions. Consider re-reading 1 Cor 5:5. I guess Paul's Church was top-down, too, by your definition.

I had presumed that heretical priests could be excommunicated by their Patriarchs in the Orthodox Church. If this is not the case, I believe you need to look to why the Orthodox Church doesn't follow the Scriptural precedent. Isn't it the job of the Bishops to protect the flock?

To me, top-down means orders are given from above and followed to the letter in all occasions. There is little autonomy. I see the Catholic Church as being subjected to "interference" from Rome, but the Bishops are relatively unimpeded, unless they are WAY off-base.

Regards

62 posted on 11/22/2005 7:37:52 AM PST by jo kus
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To: jo kus

The US is the relevant question for one joining the Catholic Church in the US in the midst of this struggle.

That is actually my big point. Doctrine is one thing, practice is another. The Catholic doctrine practiced in the Vatican is not the same doctrine practiced at 'US Diocease X'.

Were it a question of official doctrine alone it would be a lot diferent scenerio however when one joins a faith they also incur going to a specific parish, and associating with person of that faith. It opens one to the influence of their execution of that faith. So it is not a measure of doctrine alone it's a measure of the folks in the parish keeping the faith, the priest correcting those who don't, and the bishop correcting the priest when he doesn't follow it, or fails to address parishioners not following it.

FWIW if he was joining an Eastern Catholic church it would also be a lot different being as those churches operating both in the US and in the East have not suffered the same kind of entrenchment of these problems.

As I've stated on other threads the reason I was never baptised Catholic even though I went to a Catholic school, and largely beleived the Catholic religion classes was that it was plain to me that the doctrine in those materials was not followed by the majority.

So it comes down to a question of do I go with a church that has an official ban on contraception, and abortion, and divorce, but whenever I meet parishioners outside church they openly support these things, or do I go with the one that has the same beleifs on abortion and divorce, and an apparently relaxed policy on contraception, but when I meet parishioners they support the church's stance on these, and remind me to do things like fast during fasting periods, etc.

One must be interested in both following a doctrine that leads to the kingdom and also being in a parish headed that way, that will keep one in line when one treads off the path.

I suspect there are a great many parishs in the Catholic church like that some even in America, but certainly haven't seen them where I live.

[Further I resent the notion that the pope is the head of the church, and sinless, where as the orthodox don't call any men sinless and confess Christ to be the head of the church; that is the main difference.]


63 posted on 11/22/2005 7:42:06 AM PST by x5452
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To: jo kus

I'm hardly saying it wasn't called for, I'm just saying the pope is in fact hands on.

I already mentioned the situation in Boston:
http://www.pokrov.org/controversial/htmon.html

Clearly that was called for.

I think you know well the situation where the Orthodox disagree with the top down application of 'papal supremacy' (changing canon for instance).


64 posted on 11/22/2005 7:49:18 AM PST by x5452
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To: x5452

"Were it a question of official doctrine alone it would be a lot diferent scenerio however when one joins a faith they also incur going to a specific parish, and associating with person of that faith. It opens one to the influence of their execution of that faith."

But indeed, it IS a matter of official doctrine alone. Dissenters are responsible for their dissent; the non-dissenting hold themselves accountable to the officially-taught (and objectively known) doctrines of the Church. I choose to be in the latter camp, and those who choose otherwise KNOW they've chosen otherwise. Therefore, this objection is moot.

"One must be interested in both following a doctrine that leads to the kingdom and also being in a parish headed that way, that will keep one in line when one treads off the path."

Folks, Catholics KNOW what the Church teaches (or at least have recourse to find out from official and reliable publications of the Church), and they know that what they're doing is outside the bounds of orthodox Catholicism. The problem is, I can't figure out the doctrinal position of much of Orthodoxy on rather key issues. And when I bring up exceptions to your rules (you asserted there's no sex abuse problem, and I showed you at least two, and you asserted from the Bible that men are not to cover their heads while praying, and you rejected the Syriac Orthodox who do this practice to be members of a non-mainstream Orthodox Church). To everything, you take recourse in ROCOR, which appears to be more 'conservative' in its rendering of marital and sexual morality, but I've discovered this not to be the case in other Orthodox Churches. So, which way, again, do you want it?


65 posted on 11/22/2005 8:01:18 AM PST by djrakowski
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To: x5452

"[Further I resent the notion that the pope is the head of the church, and sinless, where as the orthodox don't call any men sinless and confess Christ to be the head of the church; that is the main difference.]"

You've been shown that the Pope is the VISIBLE head of the Church on earth, as a representative of Christ. But for some reason you keep insisting that he's more than that. The Church has ALWAYS held that Christ is the head of the Church!

The Church also rejects the notion that the Pope is sinless. I'm not sure where you've gotten this idea, but it isn't true.


66 posted on 11/22/2005 8:03:40 AM PST by djrakowski
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To: x5452

Dear x5452,

"[Further I resent the notion that the pope is ... sinlessm...]

That's good!

We Catholics don't think the pope is sinless, either!

One more thing on which Catholics and Orthodox agree. ;-)

Also, as to "top-down" and the excommunication of apostate priests, I assume that Orthodox Patriarchs hold the same authority? To excommunicate apostate priests?

The priest involved was, after all, Roman Catholic, and thus answerable to the Patriarch of the West.


sitetest


67 posted on 11/22/2005 8:11:52 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: djrakowski

It is not Doctrine alone. You do not exist in a vaccum. You rely on the fellowship with other parishioners to keep you in line. You rely on the priest to properly bless the Eucharist. You rely on the priest to not intentionally cause your children harm. You rely on all of the above to keep your family in the true faith when you're gone.

And Frankly most modern Catholics don't have a CLUE what the church teaches.

I said there was no sex abuse EPIDEMIC. 20 cases NATION WIDE. There's Catholic Parishs with that many.

The Orthodox church are not one heirarchy. ROCOR is a separate church. It was the pope who came up with the idea that there is one top man, that didn't exist until 1054. The pope is first amoung EQUALS with the other patriarchs.


68 posted on 11/22/2005 8:11:58 AM PST by x5452
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To: x5452

"It is not Doctrine alone. You do not exist in a vaccum. You rely on the fellowship with other parishioners to keep you in line."

Here's where you're wrong. Indeed, I do not exist in a vacuum - I worship with a group of highly faithful, reverent, orthodox Catholics who are interested in following the objective teachings of the Church. This parish is led by priests who are likewise interested in orthodoxy, and aren't afraid to admonish us when we're on the wrong path.

Though it may be the case for some that they take their lead from those around them, I prefer to learn doctrine from objective sources. I am not accountable for the sins of those in my Church who choose to follow something other than that.

"And Frankly most modern Catholics don't have a CLUE what the church teaches."

You're right. And your point is? Again, am I responsible for the errors of others, or for my own?

"The Orthodox church are not one heirarchy. ROCOR is a separate church. It was the pope who came up with the idea that there is one top man, that didn't exist until 1054. The pope is first amoung EQUALS with the other patriarchs."

I'm not sure of the development on the doctrine of Petrine primacy and supremacy, so someone else with a firmer grasp of history will have to help me out here.


69 posted on 11/22/2005 8:17:29 AM PST by djrakowski
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To: sitetest

The Vatican I defintion of the pope is way different than the Pre 1054 understanding of the primacy of the Bishop of Rome.

The Orthodox church regards the Bishop of Rome as heretical for this reason.

As for top down, as I've said I AGREE with the pope using top down. jo kus was saying that almost never happens in the Catholic church, that they are self managed on the local level, That's why I brought it up, I wasn't weighing in against the pope doing so.


70 posted on 11/22/2005 8:36:37 AM PST by x5452
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To: djrakowski

If the priest does not properly bless the sacrements you're simply eating a cracker (and a stale tasting one at that). That affects you.

If your son is an alter boy and the priest molest him secretly that affects you.

You do not exist in a vaccum. There are tons of disilushioned Catholics recovering from finding out JUST HOW TRUE THAT IS.


71 posted on 11/22/2005 8:39:26 AM PST by x5452
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To: x5452

Dear x5452,

First, I notice that you glossed over our agreement that the pope isn't sinless.

Second, you seemed to state that the pope excommunicating an apostate priest was an example of the top-down nature of the Catholic Church. Definitions from Vatican I aside, I'm just pointing out that patriarchs generally have the authority to excommunicate apostate priests. Don't Orthodox Patriarchs have the capacity to excommunicate apostate priests?

Thus, the pope's action, in this case, wasn't an excercise of papal authority, as defined at the First Vatican Council, or at any other time, but rather was the action of a patriarch. In that case, it doesn't represent a difference between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.


sitetest


72 posted on 11/22/2005 8:41:28 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: x5452

"If the priest does not properly bless the sacrements you're simply eating a cracker (and a stale tasting one at that). That affects you."

Right. So I've found a priest (actually, a whole parish full of 'em) who are quite diligent about doing it correctly.

"If your son is an alter boy and the priest molest him secretly that affects you. "

Come now, I'm sure you know that not all priests are molesters! As much as we're in disagreement, I still can't believe you've chosen to be this nasty!

Secondly, you're speaking of a situation that doesn't affect me, as none of my children will be altar servers for various reasons that have nothing to do with priestly sex abuse.

"You do not exist in a vaccum. There are tons of disilushioned Catholics recovering from finding out JUST HOW TRUE THAT IS."

Please, please, please tell me why you keep insisting on comparing those who are faithful to the teachings of the Church to those who are not, and holding the faithful accountable to the sins of those who are not! I may not exist in a vacuum, but, my friend, I am only accountable for what is taught and held true in my household.

I'm going to say this one last time, and then I'm completely done with this thread: those who choose to flagrantly disobey Church teaching will receive in themselves the due course of their disobedience - if not here, then in the afterlife. We, as Catholics, have an objective basis of determining what is acceptable and non-acceptable with respect to doctrine, and we are held accountable to THAT and that alone! Let the dissenters have their way - those who are interested in following the faith will continue to flock to our parish as some of the others in our city continue to die, because so many Catholics are insisting on right doctrine.


73 posted on 11/22/2005 8:50:45 AM PST by djrakowski
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To: x5452

I have to disagree. The Catholic Church does NOT have confusion in its doctrine. WHat it HAS, and has had for a while now, is a tendency to not demand adherence to that doctrine by people lower down on the ladder. This is atarting to change, as Pope Benedict appears serious in his determination to right the ship.

Orthodoxy does have, on the surface, an appearance of greater fidelity to its own traditions today. At least in the West. But a good deal of this stems from its insular, national-church nature. Orthodoxy rarely even tries to engage the secularizers in the West; it cheerfully leaves that to the Catholics, with the results I've already alluded to (That's okay with me. I wish we let *you* guys handle all that so we could have been able to circle our own wagons!). ;-) But Orthodoxy, in these circumstances, maintains fidelity by a laxity in outreach. It is fidelity by default.

Let's face it. The Orthodox have never made any attempt to evangelize the New World or any parts of the Old World outside of eastern Siberia. They are too insular for that. This insularity makes them highly susceptible to xenophobic tendencies. A particularly irksome example: to this day, they refuse to recognize the Gregorian calendar for liturgical use (and some Orthodox coutries only recognized it for civil use in the 20th Century!), even though it is now thirteen days off relative to the equinoxes. This borders on simple childishness. It's benefits are denied because a *pope* made the adjustments.

They are highly nationalistic, and, until VERY recently, had memberships, even in the US and similar places, based *heavily* on ethnicity. They jostle each other regularly for pride of place and prominence within their circle, ceding a barely elevated pride of place to the Patriarch of Constantinople, but the method employed here usually results in frozen positions on new issues for lack of consensus. Since they can't agree on anything much that's new to the discussion, they simply ignore it all, and live in the past.

Another factor in Orthodoxy's outward display of fidelity to the essentials is that the overwhelming majority of Orthodox live in parts of the world where secularized notions are not in great circulation. They don't need to fight them. To be fair, in many parts of the world where Orthodoxy is the prevalent Christian faith, they're too busy just staying afloat against the Moslems, or only recently freed from the yoke of communism. But all this means is that they have had to maintain a very conservative stance for survival against non-Christians; they have never had to engage in survival against heretical Christians and the inevitable secularism those Christians tend to dissolve into over time.

It is therefore only natural that the Orthodox maintain a high level of consistency in the essentials. They simply don't engage anyone in the larger world where heterodoxy tends to take root. They don't really evangelize, so they don't have to compete in the maelstrom of Christian ideas in the West. They have no one who can speak for them universally, so they live in the past, or, better, time is frozen for them at the the end of Nicaea II in 787. If no controversies exist for them from 787 that call for an ecumenical council to resolve, what do we glean from that? Either they think the Church is in a state of relative perfection, and no council has been required for 1200 years (after 7 were needed in 450 years), or they have lived in a state of insulation and denial. I suspect the latter, comingled with the hunch that no council *can* be convened, because there is a tacit admission there that the Church is headless - there is no Peter - and cannot convene one. There's "one" departure from the Faith, but I'll content myself to just gloss it for now. It's easy to keep the faith when you can pretend nothing happens in the rest of the Christian world outside of your sphere.

In spite of the foregoing, I have much respect for the Orthodox, and regard them as my brothers and sisters in almost all of the essentials of the Faith. I admire their tenacity in the face of hostile, anti-Christian forces that have surrounded them to this day in most of their homelands. I even have grea respect for them just for maintaining the entire core of the Faith (save primacy issues) even in the isolationist circumstances and instances of internal bickering I have cited. Isolated or not, they have still largely succeeded in handing down that which was received from the apostles, and I commend them for it.

But your comments on "Catholic" positions brought me to this post. I do not wish to be overly argumentative, and I pray daily for our reconciliation as the two lungs of the Church, but I will not engage in false ecumenism. Catholicism has problems, too; I'd be the first to admit them. But it is NOT true that Catholicism is undergoing a splintering in the doctrines of the Faith. Nothing has been abolished or altered in any official document. Individuals, usually lower down in the hierarchy, have spoken in the spirit of the age and the tenor of those who surround them in the West. At least the spirit of the age is confronted by them, if only ultimately in acceptance of it. But they are WRONG, and they are, when contradicting the Ecumenical Councils and the Magisterium when it deals in faith and morals, at least material heretics.

The main fault of Catholicism has been a terrible reluctance on the part of recent popes to properly control this heretical dissent. When, as I strongly suspect, THIS pope starts a long overdue crackdown on the heretical leeches parasitically attempting to suck the lifeblood from the Church in the West, can BOTH of us, East and West, Orthodox and Catholic, PLEASE heal the scandal of division that makes a mockery of the clear desire of Christ in John 17:20-21? "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."


74 posted on 11/22/2005 8:58:29 AM PST by magisterium
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To: djrakowski

You should read up on the great schism:
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Great_Schism

It explains the contentions between the Orthodox and the Catholics. The 'doctrine issues' you site are a straw man. There have been eccumenical relations for years and neither divorce nor contraception have ever come up as a point of disagreement.

Further the Vatican and Russian Moscow Patriarchiate (The Russian Orthodox Church IN Russia) are jointly promoting "Catholic Values" in Europe:
http://en.rian.ru/society/20050622/40744453.html
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=567

Something the Vatican would hardly agree to if they felt the Russian church's view on abortion, contraception, and marriage differed from theirs.

The only point of contention between the Orthodox and the Catholics regards the primacy of the Roman Church and the Pope, proselytism in the East and Uniatism:
http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=48502


75 posted on 11/22/2005 9:09:22 AM PST by x5452
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To: magisterium

The bishop enforces Doctrine or doesn't that is the state of the Catholic church.

Orthodoxy does not water down the religion to evangelize. Yet it is growing and many protestants and protestant clergy are converting as well.

Further the Orthodox church came to America through the purchase of Alaska. ROCOR is the old missionary Russian church. The notion that the Orthodox church did not evangelize is silly. It simply didn't go the Atlantic route.

The old Calendar lines up for instance Easter with when the jews celebrate passover. Not the convenince of human sales seasons. There are also Catholics who use the old Calendar. Ridiculing it's use is childish.

Nationalistic but multi-ethnic. The Orthodox church is integrated into several nations traditions. So is the Catholic church for that matter. Italy. Ireland. Brazil.

The Russian orthodox Church, the largest Orthodox church operates on the territory of government enforced athiest, the Orthodox church has fought FAR HARDER against secular society. While the pope rested in the Vatican bishops were being executed for their faith in Russia. Having been to Russia and seen the church there you're comments that the Orthodox church has had it easy and not needed to change are ridiculous.


76 posted on 11/22/2005 9:18:32 AM PST by x5452
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To: djrakowski

So what happens in your perfect parish when the priest retires and your new priest is sent from the miami seminary?


77 posted on 11/22/2005 9:19:50 AM PST by x5452
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To: sitetest

I said it was an example of top down exercising of authority because another poster was denying that the modern Catholic church ever does that. Again I am all for patriarchs exercising their authority. Though strictly speaking they should be doing so in their canonical churchs.

As for the sinless not sinless silliness its not the true debate. The true debate is whether the powers of the pope as outlined in Vatican I are heretical to those in the 3rd and 4th councils; and whether the pope began expanding his power unilaterally by changing the creed in 1054.


78 posted on 11/22/2005 9:23:11 AM PST by x5452
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To: x5452

Do you really expect me to believe that every single Orthodox parish everywhere in the world, and that every Orthodox seminary everywhere in the world, is entirely populated by good, solid, faithful and obedient priests? This is amazingly difficult to believe.

If indeed we were ever to get a priest like those coming out of the Miami seminary, I imagine that there would be a mass (pardon the unintentional pun) exodus.

'magisterium' mentioned the evangelism angle. I should've mentioned, way back in my original post, that I've never had an Orthodox Christian share his or her faith with me. Indeed, I'm not sure if I've ever met an Orthodox Christian, other than on Internet forums such as this one.


79 posted on 11/22/2005 9:31:56 AM PST by djrakowski
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To: x5452

"As for the sinless not sinless silliness its not the true debate"

Except that you chose to make it a part of this debate!


80 posted on 11/22/2005 9:32:55 AM PST by djrakowski
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To: djrakowski

No I expect you to beleive we don't have secret seminaries where there's gay priests fornicating in every room, and giving the eucharist to dogs.

This is actually a situation that deserves swift Vatican top-down action. There is an infection in the American Catholic church going back decades and it will not heal over night.

Further this whole problem begins in 1054 when the pope leaves the apostolic church and declares himself the end all be all maker and breaker of doctrine, then one of his successors decides that priest shouldn't marry since they may create rich dynastys of priests, instead of giving their wealth to the church; making the church a haven for men who are uninterested in traditional marriage and looking to cover up their behavior. After this seed of evil entered the church the bishops completely droped the ball and instead of extinguishing it outright they spread it around the whole church.

Were the shared group of patriarch still in communion at that time they would have intervened in the heresey of requiring men to take a vow of celibacy to enter the priesthood, the whole problem would have been tackled long before it became an infection.


81 posted on 11/22/2005 9:40:00 AM PST by x5452
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To: djrakowski

Where you live may determine your proximaty to those orthodox who do evangelize. The orthodox churches in America lack the political and financial muscle of the Roman church. As I mentioned it was my Catholic religion class teacher who encouraged us to visit an Orthodox church.


82 posted on 11/22/2005 9:41:53 AM PST by x5452
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To: x5452

Dear x5452,

"I said it was an example of top down exercising of authority because another poster was denying that the modern Catholic church ever does that. Again I am all for patriarchs exercising their authority. Though strictly speaking they should be doing so in their canonical churchs."

I understand what you're saying, and I don't disagree with you that there is a difference in ecclesiology between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. I just don't think the example you used illustrates the differences.

"As for the sinless not sinless silliness its not the true debate."

Okay. I was only responding to what you posted:

"[Further I resent the notion that the pope is ... sinless...]"

I merely wanted to clarify that we don't think he's sinless, either.


sitetest


83 posted on 11/22/2005 9:44:39 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest

I wasn't using it as an example of that [difference in ecclesiology between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches].

I was using it as an example of the Vatican intervening in local affairs, which Jo kus had said is rare.


84 posted on 11/22/2005 9:51:48 AM PST by x5452
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To: x5452

Orthodoxy is growing primarily from within. Many other churches, including the Catholics, can still make that claim. It is true that the orthodox are making converts from within evangelicallism. That's not necessarily a bad thing. But, come on. This is an *extremely* recent phenomenon, and it's powered as much by the evangelicals' reflexive aversion for the papacy as it is a search for Christian roots. Orthodoxy benefits because such folks hate the pope more than they hate what they think is the idolatry of Mary, and, when they see that there is no idolatry or any other thing in Orthodoxy that they had reason to abhor, they flock to it. Their only remaining aversion is for the guy in Rome, so your apostolic nature in your Church suffices for them. Meanwhile, it's not like we Catholics don't make *any* converts in these circles!

As for Alaska, I grant you that. But it was still evangelized primarily as an eastward expansion of Russian Siberia. Hardly any native populations even existed in most od Siberia, and Alaska, while more densely populated, still was rather sparse, and the evangelization was comingled with Russian government and Russian Orthodox interests. That still bears out my point. They have been nowhere in Africa, Asia, Europe or the Americas where they didn't already exist prior to the age of exploration, Siberia and Alaska excepted. For the reasons I cited.

The Old Calendar is 13 days off from the equinoxes. That is undeniable. Left unchecked, it will drift further. One day, given enough time, you will be celebrating Easter in October according to the Julian calendar. That even civil governments in Orthodox countries see the utility in realigning the calendar to reflect the seasons properly points out that there is no need for being so dug in liturgical uses. The Jews have nothing to do with it. They use an entirely different calendar that is bsed on lunar cycles, not a solar year. Their Passover and our Easter better coincide, because they simply take place on the day of the first full moon after the spring equinox (Passover), or the following Sunday (Western Easter). Since the Orthodox Julian calendar still nominally determines Easter based on an assumption of March 21 being the date of the equinox, but, in reality, their March 21 is only March 8, and therefore too early, they often have to wait for the second full moon after the actual equinox to determine Easter. Occasionally, when the full moon after the equinox is far enough ahead, it will fall after March 21 in BOTH calendars. But, when it occurs at other times (usually the case), the Orthodox are forced to wait till the next lunar cycle so that it "appears" to be after March 21 on their calendar. Early May is sometimes the result for Orthodox Easter. When Julian March 21 appears later and later relative to the Gregorian, it will be even further removed from the actual equinox, more lunations will have to pass, and Orthodox Easter will be heading into June, then July, and so forth. Astronomically, this situation makes absolutely no sense at all. It's time for us to all be on the same page in this. The Gregorian calendar is simply better. Let's get on with it.

National traditions are not the same as national churches. All Catholic nationalities are still united to the papacy, regardles of his or their actual ethnicity. People may have traditions as Germans, or Italians, or Polish, etc., but they all recognize the one head. This is not true in Orthodoxy. THAT kind of nationalism is what I'm talking about.

Finally, I hope you read my post where I *specifically* cited the Orthodox for their courage in resisting the Communists, the Moslems, and others in their countries. What makes you think I didn't? You claim that the popes were "resting" in Rome while bishops were being murdered in Russia. Nonsense. What were they supposed to do? They did what they could. So, I'm sure, did the Patriarchs of Constantinople involved at the time. Yet, I dare say, THEY saw all of these murders take place in Russia while they were comfortably ensconced in Istanbul. So what's your point? I NEVER said the Orthodox "had it easy" in Russia against the Soviets. Read the post again.


85 posted on 11/22/2005 10:05:30 AM PST by magisterium
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To: x5452; jo kus; Kolokotronis

Dear x5452,

Well, I feel like we're beginning to strain at gnats, but I'll give it one last shot.

In post #39, you described differences between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches:

"Well, you demonstrate one of the differences between the One Church of the 7 Ecumenical Councils and what developed in the West. The Orthodox system is one of 'syndeesmos' or a sort of partnership among the hierarchs, clergy and the laity, each having its own function and proper role and together making up The Church. The Roman Church is a top down system."

This is what I meant by a difference in ecclesiology - that is the structure and proper governance of the Church.

Jo kus replied to you in #58:

"That hardly describes the situation on the ground. A cursory view of the Church's life in the US will shatter the illusion that the Church is top-down here!"

He is disputing your characterization of the Catholic Church as being "top-down," in response to your prior post, which seems to clearly point out a difference in ecclesiology. By the way, I agree with you about that difference.

You replied in #59:

"Just read an article in another thread where the pope excommunicated a priest (somewhere in england or Australia i think) that seems like top down correction to me."

This note by you seems to be presented as evidence of the difference between our Churches.

My point is only that this doesn't seem to actually demonstrate the difference that you expressed. Whether you characterize it as a difference in ecclesiology (which seems to me to be what you expressed in #39) or that the Catholic Church is top-down and the Orthodox are not, this demonstrates neither. The reason why is that, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong), in a similar situation, an Orthodox Patriarch would do something similar.

The priest in the article is an actual apostate, having decided, a few decades ago, to follow a non-Christian "prophet." Apparently, after over 20 years of remonstrating with him, the Church, on the authority of the Patriarch of Rome, excommunicated him.

Other than maybe not taking so long to act, would an Orthodox Patriarch have not acted to excommunicate such a priest?

I pinged Kolokotronis because he seems quite knowledgeable of the ins-and-outs of how Orthodox do things ecclesiologically.


sitetest


86 posted on 11/22/2005 10:19:23 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: magisterium
Orthodoxy is growing primarily from within. Many other churches, including the Catholics, can still make that claim. It is true that the orthodox are making converts from within evangelicallism. That's not necessarily a bad thing. But, come on. This is an *extremely* recent phenomenon, and it's powered as much by the evangelicals' reflexive aversion for the papacy as it is a search for Christian roots. Orthodoxy benefits because such folks hate the pope more than they hate what they think is the idolatry of Mary, and, when they see that there is no idolatry or any other thing in Orthodoxy that they had reason to abhor, they flock to it. Their only remaining aversion is for the guy in Rome, so your apostolic nature in your Church suffices for them. Meanwhile, it's not like we Catholics don't make *any* converts in these circles!

Orthodoxy is NOT growing primarily from within. It is treading water from within. ROCOR, the Antiochian Church, the Greek Church, are all reporting growing converts. I've head clergy say that the most growth they are seeing in clergy is coming from protestant churches. Priest will learn about the Orthodox church and convert after they retire and qualify for a pension.

As for Alaska, I grant you that. But it was still evangelized primarily as an eastward expansion of Russian Siberia. Hardly any native populations even existed in most od Siberia, and Alaska, while more densely populated, still was rather sparse, and the evangelization was comingled with Russian government and Russian Orthodox interests. That still bears out my point. They have been nowhere in Africa, Asia, Europe or the Americas where they didn't already exist prior to the age of exploration, Siberia and Alaska excepted. For the reasons I cited.

No where in Asia? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
http://www2.gol.com/users/ocj/TheOrthodoxChurchinJapan.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~Berchmans/orthodox.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/church.htm
http://www.70south.com/news/1013676552/index_html
The orthodox church is on every continent.

The Old Calendar is 13 days off from the equinoxes. That is undeniable. Left unchecked, it will drift further. One day, given enough time, you will be celebrating Easter in October according to the Julian calendar. That even civil governments in Orthodox countries see the utility in realigning the calendar to reflect the seasons properly points out that there is no need for being so dug in liturgical uses. The Jews have nothing to do with it. They use an entirely different calendar that is bsed on lunar cycles, not a solar year. Their Passover and our Easter better coincide, because they simply take place on the day of the first full moon after the spring equinox (Passover), or the following Sunday (Western Easter). Since the Orthodox Julian calendar still nominally determines Easter based on an assumption of March 21 being the date of the equinox, but, in reality, their March 21 is only March 8, and therefore too early, they often have to wait for the second full moon after the actual equinox to determine Easter. Occasionally, when the full moon after the equinox is far enough ahead, it will fall after March 21 in BOTH calendars. But, when it occurs at other times (usually the case), the Orthodox are forced to wait till the next lunar cycle so that it "appears" to be after March 21 on their calendar. Early May is sometimes the result for Orthodox Easter. When Julian March 21 appears later and later relative to the Gregorian, it will be even further removed from the actual equinox, more lunations will have to pass, and Orthodox Easter will be heading into June, then July, and so forth. Astronomically, this situation makes absolutely no sense at all. It's time for us to all be on the same page in this. The Gregorian calendar is simply better. Let's get on with it.

The main reason for its rejection was that the celebration of Easter would be altered: contrary to the injunctions of canon 7 of the Holy Apostles, the decree of the First Ecumenical Synod, and canon 1 of Ancyra, Easter would sometimes coincide with the Jewish Passover in the Gregorian calendar.
From: http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7070.asp

National traditions are not the same as national churches. All Catholic nationalities are still united to the papacy, regardles of his or their actual ethnicity. People may have traditions as Germans, or Italians, or Polish, etc., but they all recognize the one head. This is not true in Orthodoxy. THAT kind of nationalism is what I'm talking about.

That is the heresy, the ONE HEAD. Further in your trip to Poland you skipped over the Ukraine where the Catholic church still has uniates mascarading as eastern rite orthodox.

Finally, I hope you read my post where I *specifically* cited the Orthodox for their courage in resisting the Communists, the Moslems, and others in their countries. What makes you think I didn't? You claim that the popes were "resting" in Rome while bishops were being murdered in Russia.

FYI there are those still beleive the Crimean War may have been a Catholic Conspiracy to cease Orthodox properties.

Nonsense. What were they supposed to do? They did what they could. So, I'm sure, did the Patriarchs of Constantinople involved at the time. Yet, I dare say, THEY saw all of these murders take place in Russia while they were comfortably ensconced in Istanbul. So what's your point? I NEVER said the Orthodox "had it easy" in Russia against the Soviets. Read the post again.

Modern Russian Society is where the brunt of Orthodox Christians live. The Russian Orthodox church is still not capitualting to modernism. You said the Orthodox Church never had to fight against secular culture, and that's why it had it easy and never HAD to change.
87 posted on 11/22/2005 10:26:38 AM PST by x5452
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To: sitetest

I think the would and should in that situation as I've said.


88 posted on 11/22/2005 10:28:18 AM PST by x5452
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To: x5452
So it comes down to a question of do I go with a church that has an official ban on contraception, and abortion, and divorce, but whenever I meet parishioners outside church they openly support these things, or do I go with the one that has the same beleifs on abortion and divorce, and an apparently relaxed policy on contraception, but when I meet parishioners they support the church's stance on these, and remind me to do things like fast during fasting periods, etc.

I understand your concern. However, I would like to comment. Feel free to respond.

First, the Church, even before the Great Schism, has been as you describe above. Perhaps not to the same degree, but we can easily find entire areas that were swept up in heresy. Must I remind you of Arianism again? The majority of Eastern Churches at the time were Arian, against the Catholic belief AND practice of the time. In other words, EVEN the Arians WORSHIP Christ as God. Thus, it is not uncommon for worship to become separated from doctrinal definitions.

Next, I strongly disagree with your generalization that "all" Catholics that you meet do not follow their Church's teaching. That is a generalization that I don't find to be true. Sure, there are many who don't believe this or that. They have not been properly catechized. But there still are a number of the "silent majority" who continue to believe what the Church teaches, and practices it.

In a perfect world, everyone would believe the same thing and doctrine would reflect that. But man is sinful and proud. Thus, even within the Church, we will find people who disagree with Catholic (or Orthodox) teachings. Also, the Bible mentions having to deal with lukewarm Christians, or what we call nominal Catholics. They are Catholic in name only. The Spirit comes to those who OPEN themselves to Him, not just because they had an official Baptism/Confirmation. We each must have a conversion experience, even those who are born into the faith. Otherwise, the Spirit is pushed out. People here in America are very much tempted by the culture. Not only to follow materialistic ways, but to think that the Church is a democracy and that people can believe what they want. As an Orthodox, you should be able to understand that man's reason is insufficient to come to the knowledge of Christ.

I don't find that agreement on heresies as a sign of a good Church. Just because people agree on an error doesn't make it correct. So again, unity does not necessarily point to the Church, as it is the timeless Church, not the Church of today only, that gives us our Tradition, the teachings passed down. I believe that both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have their own distinct issues and problems. Rather than pointing out ours, you should be looking to correct your own.

Further I resent the notion that the pope is the head of the church, and sinless, where as the orthodox don't call any men sinless and confess Christ to be the head of the church; that is the main difference.

Again, your Catholic "education" leaves much to be desired, as the Church does not teach that the Pope is impeccable. Your "difference" is a false dichotomy. If you still don't believe me, check out the Catechism. It clearly states that the Pope is NOT sinless.

Regards

89 posted on 11/22/2005 10:59:00 AM PST by jo kus
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To: x5452
I think you know well the situation where the Orthodox disagree with the top down application of 'papal supremacy' (changing canon for instance).

So who "relaxed" the contraception teaching within the Orthodox? Did the people "vote" on this? Was their a Council that refuted it? What happened some 75 years ago?

Try not to be thrown by "papal supremacy". It gives the Pope the POWER to do "x" and "y", but in practice, he rarely uses it, choosing to NOT lording it over others. Techinically, the Pope could disband schools that teach incorrect practices, bar theologians who teach incorrectly, chastise local churches for improper liturgical practice, and so forth. SOMEONE should have this power - IF the Church IS ONE! But, in reality, how often to you see the Pope practicing these "powers"? Hardly ever. Perhaps most would agree that he SHOULD DO MORE!

Regards

90 posted on 11/22/2005 11:07:38 AM PST by jo kus
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To: x5452
I think you know well the situation where the Orthodox disagree with the top down application of 'papal supremacy' (changing canon for instance).

So who "relaxed" the contraception teaching within the Orthodox? Did the people "vote" on this? Was their a Council that refuted it? What happened some 75 years ago?

Try not to be thrown by "papal supremacy". It gives the Pope the POWER to do "x" and "y", but in practice, he rarely uses it, choosing to NOT lording it over others. Techinically, the Pope could disband schools that teach incorrect practices, bar theologians who teach incorrectly, chastise local churches for improper liturgical practice, and so forth. SOMEONE should have this power - IF the Church IS ONE! But, in reality, how often do you see the Pope practicing these "powers"? Hardly ever. Perhaps most would agree that he SHOULD DO MORE!

Regards

91 posted on 11/22/2005 11:07:44 AM PST by jo kus
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To: x5452
The Orthodox church regards the Bishop of Rome as heretical for this reason

Show me the bull of that. I think you are referring to the two patriarchs, Constantinople and Rome, excommunicating each other, in 1054. But those bulls have been lifted during the 20th century, and were ONLY applied to those two specific men. Your polemics are incorrect, the Orthodox do not consider Benedict XVI a heretic...

Regards

92 posted on 11/22/2005 11:13:51 AM PST by jo kus
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To: jo kus
I understand your concern. However, I would like to comment. Feel free to respond.

First, the Church, even before the Great Schism, has been as you describe above. Perhaps not to the same degree, but we can easily find entire areas that were swept up in heresy. Must I remind you of Arianism again? The majority of Eastern Churches at the time were Arian, against the Catholic belief AND practice of the time. In other words, EVEN the Arians WORSHIP Christ as God. Thus, it is not uncommon for worship to become separated from doctrinal definitions.

That is exactly WHY it would have been better had the pope not tried to unilaterally re-write doctrine, and excommunicated the other patriarchs. The pope has the final word mentality is what has led Catholism into ever problem it has encountered and resulted in protestantism.
<>BR Next, I strongly disagree with your generalization that "all" Catholics that you meet do not follow their Church's teaching. That is a generalization that I don't find to be true. Sure, there are many who don't believe this or that. They have not been properly catechized. But there still are a number of the "silent majority" who continue to believe what the Church teaches, and practices it.

I will say 2 things MAY affect my sampling. None of Catholic aquaintances from school gave a hoot about doctrine; but that is a small sample size, my class only had 14 kids. Also I live in the area of the Albany NY Arch Diocease; most catholics i meet are liberal democrats.

In a perfect world, everyone would believe the same thing and doctrine would reflect that. But man is sinful and proud. Thus, even within the Church, we will find people who disagree with Catholic (or Orthodox) teachings. Also, the Bible mentions having to deal with lukewarm Christians, or what we call nominal Catholics. They are Catholic in name only. The Spirit comes to those who OPEN themselves to Him, not just because they had an official Baptism/Confirmation. We each must have a conversion experience, even those who are born into the faith. Otherwise, the Spirit is pushed out. People here in America are very much tempted by the culture. Not only to follow materialistic ways, but to think that the Church is a democracy and that people can believe what they want. As an Orthodox, you should be able to understand that man's reason is insufficient to come to the knowledge of Christ.

As I explained to djrakowski it's more than that. We don't exist in a vaccum and the penetration of the doctrine amoung parishioners is critical, and even more so amoung clergy. It is a responsibility not just for ourselves but our families. The Catholic church could be 100% orthodox in Rome, and it would change the situation on the ground in America. There are dioceases in America that are all but completely bankrupt of attention to doctrine.

I don't find that agreement on heresies as a sign of a good Church. Just because people agree on an error doesn't make it correct. So again, unity does not necessarily point to the Church, as it is the timeless Church, not the Church of today only, that gives us our Tradition, the teachings passed down. I believe that both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have their own distinct issues and problems. Rather than pointing out ours, you should be looking to correct your own.

What church are you acussing of heresies now? I can't go to Russia and tell Alexy what the problems of the church are, but I can make a judgement call between as to the attention to doctrine, and the amount of corrupt and outright reballion against Apostolic faith in the churches in my community. Again, your Catholic "education" leaves much to be desired, as the Church does not teach that the Pope is impeccable. Your "difference" is a false dichotomy. If you still don't believe me, check out the Catechism. It clearly states that the Pope is NOT sinless.

He s still the absolute head of the Roman church. He is still the one who makes or breaks Canon, and he's still the one who comes up with ridiculous rules like manditory vows of celibacy. And he's still heretical for taking what was a primacy of honor and fashioning it to be a primacy of canon and a primacy of juristiction.
93 posted on 11/22/2005 11:18:23 AM PST by x5452
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To: jo kus

A heretic is one who holds a heretcal beleif.

The notion that the pope is the head of the church and not Christ is heretical to the orthodox doctrine.

Do the math.

(The Orthodox actually use heretical and Apostasy quite often...)
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Roman_Catholic_Church
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Heresy


94 posted on 11/22/2005 11:23:04 AM PST by x5452
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To: jo kus

Certain Bishops in Certain Jurisdictions, same as within the Catholic church relaxed the teaching. (I think I posted a link to an exhaustive look at this).

The orthodox objection to the papal supremacy is not with regard to how often he uses it, it is with regard to the fact they find it heretical.


95 posted on 11/22/2005 11:25:18 AM PST by x5452
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To: NYer
How the Church Saved Civilization

That leaves little work for the creator of the universe.

96 posted on 11/22/2005 11:29:19 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Y'shua <==> YHvH is my Salvation (Psalm 118-14))
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To: x5452
Further this whole problem begins in 1054 when the pope leaves the apostolic church and declares himself the end all be all maker and breaker of doctrine

I hadn't realized that there are still Orthodox out there who believe that stuff... Perhaps you should return to reading the Church Fathers and you will find out over and over again that the Bishop of Rome DID have a primacy that was over and above a figurehead like the Queen of England. First among equals! It means more than what you claim. It was HE whom the Bishops wrote to for clarifications on doctrinal disagreements. Did Rome ever write to St. John Chrysostom or Athanasius to get official rulings on the faith? When heretics appeared within the Church, did Rome write to Athanasius for help? WHY ROME? Rome is thousands of miles from Alexandria. Unless, of course, Athanasius and the other Eastern Fathers recognized that the Bishop of Rome was the successor of Peter, the leader of the Apostles - first among equals, but given the keys, given the responsibility to feed Christ's Sheep. Ignoring this is ignoring the history of the Church at least 600-700 years BEFORE the Great Schism.

then one of his successors decides that priest shouldn't marry since they may create rich dynastys of priests

Again, you are misinformed. The Western practice of celibacy of priests was a discipline before the Great Schism. Even if it was not, it is a discipline - so it is not a heresy, as you claim. Again, your polemics do not help matters but only throw fuel on the fire.

Were the shared group of patriarch still in communion at that time they would have intervened in the heresey of requiring men to take a vow of celibacy to enter the priesthood, the whole problem would have been tackled long before it became an infection.

LOL! If only the Catholic Church didn't leave the Orthodox church...You read the secular paper's version on what happened regarding the sexual abuse scandal. This totally ignores that FACT that there are many more MARRIED perverts, school teachers, cub Scout leaders, janitors, people of ALL social classes and occupations. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING MARRIED OR CELIBATE! If a person is gay or has gay tendencies, marriage doesn't "fix" them! Psychologists have largely disproved that idea. Much of the problem, as I mentioned before, is the UNITED STATES bishops and their dissent to Paul VI encyclical on contraception. Dissent and the accpetance within culture of homosexual and deviant behavior has been a big part of the problem - by the way, which is NOT a problem in the vast majority of Catholicism, ONLY in the US. Being that the Church in America is less than 10% of the total Catholic Church, I would hardly say that this problem pervades the entire Church...

Regards

97 posted on 11/22/2005 11:35:43 AM PST by jo kus
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To: x5452

Whatever. Read the post AGAIN. I spoke of the secularized culture that inevitably derives from a heretical Christian one.

Orthodoxy *is* growing mostly from within, at least in the ethnic sense. Most of the converts in Russia and other former Soviet satellites are from ethnic Orthodox stock. Their families merely bypassed Orthodox observance for a few generations, so they are genuine converts. That's a good thing. And it is true that there are more than a few conversions of evangelicals and disaffected Catholics in places like the US. But they are still the minority. And even there, the converts seek out the Orthodox, not vice versa. Of course it's on every continent, but in most cases it merely followed its own adherents in their migrations. Very little evangelical proselytization has ever occured with a view to actually Christianizing the pagans wherever they may be found. That was my point.

Your calendar is 13 days off relative to the vernal equinox that determines Easter. Period. The Gregorian calendar sought to realign March 21 with the equinox, since that was the date of the equinox at the time of the Council of Nicaea in 325. The equinox is the equinox. It happens when it happens, no matter what date either one of us wants to call it. But March 21 is supposed to be important to assign to the equinox. The Gregorian has it fall on March 21 (or occasionally in the late hours of March 20). It will take something like 3500 years to drift one full day if uncorrected. The Julian has March 21 fall on Gregorian April 3, thirteen days after the astronomical reality of the vernal equinox has already taken place. If March 21 is such an important date to both of us, and we have already made the adjustment, there's only one way to go here. The division over this is just silly. Even the Anglicans decided that enough was enough, and got in line with the improved Gregorian calendar around 1750.

The "heresy" of one head? The *heresy* of primacy? You have been separated from us for so long that you have built up primacy as an issue involving *heresy*??? I dunno about that! It seems to me that the Orthodox, generally, are willing to assign primacy to the bishop of Rome with certain restrictions, but we differ as to the boundaries of papal authority. The principle of primacy is not denied and watered down to the point where to even refer to it is a "heresy," is it? Perhaps I have misread the statements of the last few Ecumenical Patriarchs and others on this topic. It's not my business to tell you what your own Church teaches, but I think you will find that the basic principle of some element of primacy is considered worth exploring from your point of view, and therefore is not a "heresy," for the mere mention of which anathemas flow.

As for the Ukrainians, I fail to see the connection. The Catholics and Ukrainian Orthodox have always coexisted. The Soviets did their darnedest to undermine both Churches. They were particularly zealous in this regard with the Catholics, as they were "under a foreign head." Many Catholic churches were ripped away. The Church lost huge amounts of its own patrimony. Now that religious freedom has, relatively speaking, made a comeback in Russia, the Catholics want at least some of their former property back. The Orthodox, xenophobic as usual, have moved heaven and earth to get the secular government to not officially recognize anything but Orthodoxy. Where's the freedom? Catholics, a sizable minority, but a minority just the same, want their rights. That some of them seek these rights at the expense of the Orthodox in some of the property disputes is perfectly understandable. I suppose your opposition to that is also perfectly understandable. But neither of us should whine about it. The situation is complex, and a massive scandal against the letter and spirit of John 17:20-21. We both need to move more toward each other, instead of demanding that the "other side" makes all of the movements forward.


I spoke of the secularized culture that inevitably derives from a heretical Christian one. Russian orthodoxy, and the rest of Orthodoxy in the homelands, doesn't deal with religious modernism or the post-Christian secularism derived from Protestantism. All of that stuff is ovr here, and stems from the multiplicity of sects coming out of the so-called Reformation. It just isn't an issue for the Orthodox. It may become one as time goes on, particularly in Orthodox outposts in places like the US, but it's not a big thing yet. Therefor, Orthodoxy is relatively untainted at its lower levels by clashes with post-Christian religious modernism and post-Christian secularism derived from a non-apostolic understanding of Christianity. That's ALL I meant. I was NOT talking about battling secularism in the atheistic Communist mode. You guys were simply battling *that* brand of secularism for survival, and I already said (in two posts!) that I have great admiration for that. If you want to argue with me about the fact that I value the Orthodox for this, fine. But read carefully enough to know what I mean by "secularism" before you go off.



98 posted on 11/22/2005 11:38:36 AM PST by magisterium
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To: jo kus

Interesting link regarding the Orthodox perception of the Bishop of Rome:
http://www.thechristianactivist.com/Vol%207/V7F2000.htm


99 posted on 11/22/2005 11:42:16 AM PST by x5452
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To: x5452
The orthodox objection to the papal supremacy is not with regard to how often he uses it, it is with regard to the fact they find it heretical.

I hadn't realized that the Orthodox Church declared Ecumenical Councils validly led by the Bishop of Rome are no longer infallible. Because this WAS believed BEFORE the Great Schism... Can you point me to an Orthodox Ecumenical Council that made that statement?

The problem here is that you are using "papal supremacy" without defining it. Secondly, you seem to believe that the Church is frozen in time at the year 1054 - that Doctrine developed throughout the first millenium, then stopped at that date. Know that just as the Catholic Church continued to define doctrine after the Nestorians left, or the Armenians left, or the Coptics left, the Catholic Church will CONTINUE to define doctrine after the Orthodox or the Protestants left the Church. Is this surprising?

Regards

100 posted on 11/22/2005 11:43:34 AM PST by jo kus
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