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Back to the Beginning: A Brief Introduction to the Ancient Catholic Church
Catholic Education ^ | November 21, 2005 | GEORGE SIM JOHNSTON

Posted on 11/21/2005 11:58:28 AM PST by NYer

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1 posted on 11/21/2005 11:58:30 AM PST by NYer
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To: american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...

Girding up for the holiday season :-)


2 posted on 11/21/2005 11:59:32 AM PST by NYer (ôSocialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: NYer

bump


3 posted on 11/21/2005 12:25:00 PM PST by kenth (Come back here... so that I may brain thee!)
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To: NYer

Great post. Thank you.


4 posted on 11/21/2005 12:27:17 PM PST by Nihil Obstat
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To: NYer; jo kus

How timely. ;O)


5 posted on 11/21/2005 12:33:15 PM PST by HarleyD (Joh 8:36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.)
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To: NYer

Moslty great post (I'd debate what primacy meant then and now...)

I especially like the calling out of the History Channel.

After they decided a good Christmas special was one about whether the Virgin Mary was raped by a Roman soldier I am shocked that the church hasn't called for boycotting the channel. (Attacking the virgin birth is a direct attack on Christianity).


6 posted on 11/21/2005 12:35:13 PM PST by x5452
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To: NYer
To paraphrase Hilaire Belloc, there was no such thing as a religion called "primitive Christianity." There is and always has been the Church, founded by Christ around the year 30 A.D.

Excellent article!

This, in a nutshell, is the reason I am compelled to be, and remain, a Catholic. What else is there? Where else can we go?

"Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."

7 posted on 11/21/2005 12:36:15 PM PST by TotusTuus
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To: NYer
"The culture is now flooded with bogus scholarship whose main purpose is to put...orthodox Catholicism — on the defensive. But most Catholics have no idea how to respond, and more than a few take these books and documentaries at face value. After all, they have the imprimatur of the History Channel or a large publishing house like Doubleday.

Why should believe the History Channel or Doubleday when we have the Catholic Church to give us the OBJECTIVE view of Church history? ;O)

8 posted on 11/21/2005 12:38:45 PM PST by HarleyD (Joh 8:36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.)
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To: NYer
"And yet most Catholics know very little about their own history.:

Thanks to Land O'Lakes and other goofy kooky wreckovators of Catholic higher education.

9 posted on 11/21/2005 12:43:04 PM PST by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: HarleyD
You think the History Channel is 'objective'????

sad ....

10 posted on 11/21/2005 12:45:07 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Kermit the Frog Does theWatusi
The media have a sharp appetite for this recycling of 19th-century, anti-clerical scholarship, and so books by scholars like Gary Wills and Elaine Pagels get maximum exposure. And then there is The Da Vinci Code, which has sold a staggering nine million copies. Both the New York Times and National Public Radio seem to think that it is based on historical fact. Even its author appears to think so. But a book that claims that Christians did not believe in the divinity of Christ until the fourth century, that a Roman emperor chose the four Gospels, that the Church executed five million witches, and that Opus Dei has monks is obviously little more than a farrago of nonsense.

Yeah. And that's putting it lightly.

More could be said about the retarded nature of modern liberal secular humanist culture.

11 posted on 11/21/2005 12:45:22 PM PST by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: NYer

Later read.


12 posted on 11/21/2005 12:53:41 PM PST by little jeremiah
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To: NYer

"Long before there was a New Testament, there was a deposit of faith concerning the nature of God, His threefold personality, His purpose in making man, the Incarnation."

This is one of the primary reasons I'm becoming Catholic!


13 posted on 11/21/2005 1:10:07 PM PST by djrakowski
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To: djrakowski

Why Catholic and not Eastern Orthodox?


14 posted on 11/21/2005 1:15:10 PM PST by x5452
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To: x5452

"Why Catholic and not Eastern Orthodox?"

Orthodox churches allow divorce and remarriage, as well as contraception. The teachings of Catholicism make more sense in light of what's been revealed in Sacred Scripture. To quote from the conversion story of Cindy Beck (http://www.chnetwork.org/cbconv.htm):

"Up until 1930, all Christian churches taught that contraception was intrinsically evil and gravely sinful. It was the Anglican Church, at its Lambeth Conference, that first approved the use of birth control. Since that time, every single Protestant denomination – and sadly even the Orthodox Church – has followed suit, departing from nineteen hundred years of universal Christian belief."


15 posted on 11/21/2005 1:23:59 PM PST by djrakowski
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To: djrakowski

The Orthodox church does not allow divorce or contraception.

Divorce:
The church allows remarriage in cases of adultry. The difference being they don't call it an annulmant even though it is the same set of criteria. It's based on the exact same scriptural reference the Catholic church uses for determining anulmants.

OCA:
http://oca.org/QAindex-sacramentmarriage.asp?SID=3
GOA
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7101.asp
Other Orthodox General Info
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/doctrine3.aspx
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Pastoral_Guidelines#Weddings

Contraception:
OCA
http://oca.org/QA.asp?ID=147&SID=3
GOA
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7101.asp
Russian Moscow Patriarchiate
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/oct/04100710.html
General Info Sites:
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Contraception

Anyone familiar with the Orthodox church and Catholic church doctrine will confirm the doctrine in both the Catholic and Orthodox churches is near identical on these topics. Your 'mileage may vary' from parish to parish, however it does in the Catholic church as well.

Further they hold to the Fourth Council definition of primacy:
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Fourth_Ecumenical_Council

And the original version of the Nicene Creed:
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Filioque


16 posted on 11/21/2005 1:57:13 PM PST by x5452
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To: HarleyD
What was "primitive Christianity"? John Henry Newman became a Catholic in the course of answering that question. History, he said, is the enemy of Protestantism. It is also the enemy of the newly vigorous anti-Catholicism that circulates among our cultural elites.

I have found through experience that some people will only believe those histories that they want to believe, that support their own already pre-conceived ideas of how things were. By going to primary sources or secondary sources that remain unbiased, we can get a good idea of the history. But I personally don't care much for such scholarship made with the intent in mind already to disprove the Church (or any other historical claim). Before becoming Christian, I learned this in my study of military history. One could manipulate history to make it read what they wanted - so it was necessary to look at the source - is the "historian" trying to prove something? Or are they trying to look at the facts in an unbiased manner, presenting what is there?

It appears anachronistic thought is alive and well, by the looks of those "anti-Catholic" historians trying to resurrect the Gnostic heresies.

Regards

17 posted on 11/21/2005 2:22:00 PM PST by jo kus
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To: x5452

I would say that the author is refering to the Catholic Church pre-1054. While the falling out began prior to that, certainly one would say that in the early centuries of the Church, the East West divide was not nearly as pronouced as it has sadly become today. Would you agree?


18 posted on 11/21/2005 3:21:08 PM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: StAthanasiustheGreat

Up until the 1054 the church was fairly unified. I just don't like the way the article uses the generic term primacy, as though everyone in 1053 had the same definition as the Vatican I definition.

I think a return to the pre-1054 understanding of primacy would be a huge step toward ending the schism (that and a real effort on both sides to stop picking converts out of the other's parishes).

Further I think the combined weight of both churches could do a lot to eliminate protestantism.


19 posted on 11/21/2005 3:25:50 PM PST by x5452
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To: jo kus
I have found through experience that some people will only believe those histories that they want to believe, that support their own already pre-conceived ideas of how things were.

Yes. I quite agree.

20 posted on 11/21/2005 3:58:36 PM PST by HarleyD (Joh 8:36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.)
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To: NYer
You know, the problem with articles like these is that they often devolve into a piece of ROMAN Catholic apologetics. It is disengenuous, no actually dishonest, to lead Roman Catholics themselves, let alone Protestants and others, to understand that the early Church was the self same thing as the Roman Church is today and has been since the Great Schism. This is not to say that the Roman Church is not a particular Church within The Church, it certainly is, but it is not itself alone The Church.
21 posted on 11/21/2005 4:02:59 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: djrakowski; x5452
"Why Catholic and not Eastern Orthodox?"

Best of both worlds! The Catholic Church breathes with two lungs - a Roman Catholic may attend the liturgy or join the parish of an Eastern Catholic Church. It also helps to have a definitive voice at the Vatican ;-D

22 posted on 11/21/2005 4:18:56 PM PST by NYer (ôSocialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: x5452

From the oca.org website, I quote the following:

"The Orthodox Church recognizes the sanctity of marriage and sees it as a life-long commitment. However, there are certain circumstances in which it becomes evident that there is no love or commitment in a relationship.

While the Church stands opposed to divorce, the Church, in its concern for the salvation of its people, does permit divorced individuals to marry a second and even a third time.

The Order of the Second or Third Marriage is somewhat different than that celebrated as a first marriage and it bears a penitential character. Second or third marriages are performed by "economy" -- that is, out of concern for the spiritual well being of the parties involved and as an exception to the rule, so to speak."

This quote seems to indicate that the Orthodox Church has it both ways. Honestly, I'm more confused about its position on divorce than before. And the Catholic Church, while it doesn't permit divorce and remarriage, does provide for annulments, which involve a decision on the sacramental nature, or lack thereof, in a marriage. I see nothing about the sacrament of marriage in this description of divorce and remarriage within Orthodoxy - only situations in which there is "no love and commitment in a relationship."


23 posted on 11/21/2005 4:24:29 PM PST by djrakowski
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To: x5452
After they decided a good Christmas special was one about whether the Virgin Mary was raped by a Roman soldier I am shocked that the church hasn't called for boycotting the channel.

Not sure if it was the History, TLC or Discovery Channel but one of them recently did a show on how Jesus communicated. They used the Sermon on the Mount to disprove He ever delivered it from a 'mount' or a valley, citing the large numbers who were in attendance. It was not possible, accoustically they claim, to project such a message from either locale. The deduction? He communicated the message through His apostles to small communities on different days. "Click" went the remote control.

24 posted on 11/21/2005 4:25:07 PM PST by NYer (ôSocialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: NYer; djrakowski; x5452

" "Why Catholic and not Eastern Orthodox?"

Best of both worlds! The Catholic Church breathes with two lungs - a Roman Catholic may attend the liturgy or join the parish of an Eastern Catholic Church. It also helps to have a definitive voice at the Vatican ;-D"

Trumpets our resident voice of Uniatism! :( This attitude is precisely what drives the Orthodox insane and which the Roman Church has disavowed!


25 posted on 11/21/2005 4:26:08 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: x5452

And on contraception, I again quote from oca.org:

"Married couples may express their love in sexual union without always intending the conception of a child, but only those means of controlling conception within marriage are acceptable which do not harm a foetus already conceived." - http://www.oca.org/DOCmarriage.asp?ID=19


26 posted on 11/21/2005 4:29:06 PM PST by djrakowski
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To: djrakowski

Before joining the Orthodox Church I actually looked up that one a lot (the view on birth control and contraception).

The OCA site stands in contradiction to a lot of published official materials from the various churches.

A difference between the Orthodox and the Catholics is that there isn't one top down canon, there's several different self governing churches (Antiochian, Greek, OCA, ROCOR, Moscow Patriarchiate, etc). On issues like this there are gaps, and further within those churches there are the occasional lapses in clarity which lead to some otherwise knowledgable folks misinforming others about the doctrine, it's why I linked to a bunch of sites. You find the same thing betwen dioceases in the Catholic church.

I have seen both the "tolerated in some situations within marriage but consult your priest first" and the "absolutley wrong never do it".

There's a rather exhaustive look at the debate here:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ162.HTM

I do not suspect this is entirely undebated within Catholic circles either. (After all there are even bishops defending openly gay clergy)

And here's some Catholic bishops who do as much:
http://allafrica.com/stories/200511141386.html
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051115/NEWS01/511150330/1002/NEWS

I suspect if you asked anyone in a ROCOR parish they'd be 100% against contraception in any circumstances. (These are folks afterall who have a sign on the parish door reminding folks that women should cover their head in church).


27 posted on 11/21/2005 5:51:52 PM PST by x5452
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To: Kolokotronis

Hey any chance of you helping me explain the official doctrine on contraception and divorce?


28 posted on 11/21/2005 5:52:46 PM PST by x5452
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To: Kolokotronis

Haven't you heard the Uniate church is in no way an attempt to win over converts in Orthodox areas by exempting them from key aspects of Catholic doctrine, and giving all orthodox parishioners and clergy a free pass to join. (/sarc)


29 posted on 11/21/2005 5:55:50 PM PST by x5452
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To: x5452

"Hey any chance of you helping me explain the official doctrine on contraception and divorce?"

Simple. Civil divorce followed by an ecclesiastical divorce and remarriage is a matter of economia and is purely and simply an accomodation to the civil society around us and has been since the first Imperial divorce statutes in, I think, the 7th century, though it may have been the 8th century. You stated the basis of that economia as well as it can be stated.

Non-abortifacient contraception is considered to be a matter between a spiritual father and a married couple. Abortion of course is condemned as a grave sin. Orthodox theology does not hold with the basically Augustinian foundation of the Latin Church's teachings on contraception. This raises another broader point. In the Latin Church, the pope, under certain circumstances can proclaim dogma and bind all members of that Church to the teaching. In Orthodoxy, nothing becomes dogma until the people proclaim their AXIOS by living out the proclaimed dogma. In the case of contraception, after what, 40 odd years, it is quite apparent that the Roman Catholic laity has not proclaimed its AXIOS; quite the contrary if polls are to be believed.

Here's a comment from the GOA website:

"Fertility control, or contraception, is the practice by which mechanical, chemical, or other means are used, either before or after a sexual act, in order to prevent fertilization of the ovum by the sperm, thus circumventing the possible consequences of the sexual act - the conception and ultimate birth of a child.

General agreement exists among Orthodox writers on the following two points:

1. since at least one of the purposes of marriage is the birth of children, a couple acts immorally when it consistently uses contraceptive methods to avoid the birth of any children, if there are not extenuating circumstances;
2. contraception is also immoral when used to encourage the practice of fornication and adultery.

Less agreement exists among Eastern Orthodox authors on the issue of contraception within marriage for the spacing of children or for the limitation of the number of children. Some authors take a negative view and count any use of contraceptive methods within or outside of marriage as immoral (Papacostas, pp. 13-18; Gabriel Dionysiatou). These authors tend to emphasize as the primary and almost exclusive purpose of marriage the birth of children and their upbringing. They tend to consider any other exercise of the sexual function as the submission of this holy act to unworthy purposes, i.e., pleasure-seeking, passion, and bodily gratification, which are held to be inappropriate for the Christian growing in spiritual perfection. These teachers hold that the only alternative is sexual abstinence in marriage, which, though difficult, is both desirable and possible through the aid of the grace of God. It must be noted also that, for these writers, abortion and contraception are closely tied together, and often little or no distinction is made between the two. Further, it is hard to discern in their writings any difference in judgment between those who use contraceptive methods so as to have no children and those who use them to space and limit the number of children.

Other Orthodox writers have challenged this view by seriously questioning the Orthodoxy of the exclusive and all-controlling role of the procreative purpose of marriage (Zaphiris; Constantelos, 1975). Some note the inconsistency of the advocacy of sexual continence in marriage with the scriptural teaching that one of the purposes of marriage is to permit the ethical fulfillment of sexual drives, so as to avoid fornication and adultery (1 Cor. 7:1-7). Most authors, however, emphasize the sacramental nature of marriage and its place within the framework of Christian anthropology, seeing the sexual relationship of husband and wife as one aspect of the mutual growth of the couple in love and unity. This approach readily adapts itself to an ethical position that would not only permit but also enjoin sexual relationships of husband and wife for their own sake as expressions of mutual love. Such a view clearly would support the use of contraceptive practices for the purpose of spacing and limiting children so as to permit greater freedom of the couple in the expression of their mutual love."


30 posted on 11/21/2005 6:49:54 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: x5452

"I do not suspect this is entirely undebated within Catholic circles either. (After all there are even bishops defending openly gay clergy) "

Regardless of the opinions of some members of the clergy, even bishops, I have an objective and unchanging standard against which to measure all doctrine. In contrast, however, there appears to be little in the way of such objective standards within Orthodox Christianity.

So, even though it may be far from undebated within Catholic circles, everyone knows precisely the official stand of the Church on matters like these. I haven't found the same clarity in my research of Orthodoxy.


31 posted on 11/21/2005 7:23:40 PM PST by djrakowski
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To: Kolokotronis

"In Orthodoxy, nothing becomes dogma until the people proclaim their AXIOS by living out the proclaimed dogma."

Do you mean that the faithful determine the dogmas of the faith? Then what is to prevent ANY dogma of the faith from being changed in the future?


32 posted on 11/21/2005 7:25:24 PM PST by djrakowski
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To: djrakowski

That is such a humorous discription of the situation.

The official Orthodox and Catholic doctrine are identical, and the level of capitulation in various circles is identical. The level of false teaching against doctrine however is much higher in the Catholic church especially in America.

Paul says it's a sin for women to talk in church or pray uncovered, I don't see the Catholic doctrine following that one.

Further manditory priestly celibacy, which is also against both scripture and the early church, is forced in the Catholic church as a result of mideval politics.

What about the lack of clarity & consistency regarding primacy and papal infailbility? Purgatory?

Have you ever been to an Orthodox liturgy? Have you ever seen either the Latin Rite or Eastern Rite overseas?

I've never met only one divorced Orthodox, and I've met numerous divorced Catholics. I've never read an article about an abusive Orthodox priest and I've read at least a hundred with Catholic priest and Bishops.

Shouldn't something be said with regard to by their deeds you'll know them?


33 posted on 11/21/2005 7:35:26 PM PST by x5452
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To: djrakowski; x5452

"Do you mean that the faithful determine the dogmas of the faith? Then what is to prevent ANY dogma of the faith from being changed in the future?"

Hasn't happened yet...2100 years and counting. In any event, I think you've misunderstood what I wrote. Dogma isn't dogma until the people accept it. Once accepted, it can't be changed. The only ones to do that were the Romans with the filioque and perhaps the Immaculate Conception. Beyond that, since the Great Schism there have been no great councils to proclaim dogma since the whole Church by definition can't get together. Canons do fall into disuse (ie no riding in public conveyances with Jews or using a Jewish doctor) and I suppose one might say they have been changed but of course not all canons are even close to dogma.


34 posted on 11/22/2005 3:22:21 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: x5452

"I've never met only one divorced Orthodox, and I've met numerous divorced Catholics. I've never read an article about an abusive Orthodox priest and I've read at least a hundred with Catholic priest and Bishops."

Wish I could say the same. I do believe our divorce rates are lower than among most other Christians for example, here in the States its about 14% while the Roman Catholics have a rate of about 19%, but that's nothing to crow about. It is interesting to note that in Greece as a whole, the rate is about 15% while in the US its 43% and in Russia 65%!


35 posted on 11/22/2005 3:32:23 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: x5452

"Shouldn't something be said with regard to by their deeds you'll know them?"

That's a positively Protestant statement. Of course you'll know INDIVIDUALS for their deeds. The Church consists not just of the wheat, but also the chaff.

"Further manditory priestly celibacy, which is also against both scripture and the early church, is forced in the Catholic church as a result of mideval politics."

You misunderstand the difference between dogmas/doctrines, which cannot be changed, and disciplines (such as priestly celibacy, Friday abstinence from meat), which are subject to change. Furthermore, the Eastern churches permit married clergy, and Rome has no problem with that. It is simply a discipline of the Roman rite.

"Paul says it's a sin for women to talk in church or pray uncovered, I don't see the Catholic doctrine following that one."

Another issue of a permissible (though not required) discipline, in contrast to a required and unchangeable dogma. Try again.

"I've never read an article about an abusive Orthodox priest and I've read at least a hundred with Catholic priest and Bishops."

I wasn't going to do this until you threw that last comment out there. Here are at least two mentions of clergy sexual abuse in the Orthodox churches:
A Call for a Reporting Policy on Sexual Abuse in the Orthodox Church: http://www.helleniccomserve.com/sexabuse.html

Ad Calls for Bishops to Account In Case of Defrocked Priest
http://www.pokrov.org/Editorials/cromidasJuly162005.html

Keep in mind that you'll obviously see more cases of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, particularly in America, because the Church is so much larger here than the Orthodox Churches.


36 posted on 11/22/2005 4:11:08 AM PST by djrakowski
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To: Kolokotronis

"Dogma isn't dogma until the people accept it."

Right. In other words, the faithful have some say in what is and isn't absolute truth. I like the Roman position much better, thank you.


37 posted on 11/22/2005 4:12:07 AM PST by djrakowski
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To: NYer

Thanks so much for the ping list. I converted five years ago, and these threads really help me "catch up" on all that I've missed the first 30 years of my life!

I find that I am very interested in the history of the Church - do you have any recommendations on a book to read this holiday season?


38 posted on 11/22/2005 4:28:58 AM PST by notsofastmyfriend
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To: djrakowski; x5452; kosta50

"Right. In other words, the faithful have some say in what is and isn't absolute truth. I like the Roman position much better, thank you."

Well, you demonstrate one of the differences between the One Church of the 7 Ecumenical Councils and what developed in the West. The Orthodox system is one of "syndeesmos" or a sort of partnership among the hierarchs, clergy and the laity, each having its own function and proper role and together making up The Church. The Roman Church is a top down system. In Orthodoxy, infallibilty rests with The Church while in the Roman system it dogmatically rests with the Pope; two different systems which, having lasted a very long time, have formed the essential, and different, phronema or worldview of each particular church and its members. As Orthodox, we believe that the Roman system has lead to error and innovation but we also recognize the historical fact that the proper exercise of the Petrine Office also, on numerous occasions in the Pre Schism Church, assured the survival of Orthodoxy against the assaults of heretical groups.


39 posted on 11/22/2005 4:38:11 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Coleus

Ping


40 posted on 11/22/2005 4:41:11 AM PST by MattinNJ (Allen/Pawlenty in 08-play the map.)
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To: djrakowski

The Roman church tolerates married clergy in the eastern church in an attempt to convert orthodox in the eastern countries.

Forcing priests to take a vow of celibacy is not at all like FASTING periods.

2 cases of abuse are par for the course, they are not the epidemic (nor the MASSIVE administrative cover up) that has shown itself in the catholic church.

There was actually one single case of a monastary where the leading bishop was gay and leading the flock astray near boston; the whole monastary was excommunicated.

Further Corinthians 14 doesn't say it is OPTIONAL Paul says it is a commandment from the Lord:
1Cr 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.


1Cr 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.


1Cr 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?


1Cr 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.


41 posted on 11/22/2005 4:41:21 AM PST by x5452
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To: djrakowski

Further from Paul:
1Cr 11:3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
1Cr 11:4 Every man who has {something} on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head.
1Cr 11:5 But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.
1Cr 11:6 For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head.
1Cr 11:7 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.


42 posted on 11/22/2005 4:52:01 AM PST by x5452
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To: x5452

1Cr 11:4 Every man who has {something} on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head.

Here's a description of Syriac Orthodox vestments that include head coverings for the priest: http://sor.cua.edu/Vestments/

"The priest then puts on the phiro (lit. 'fruit'), a small black cap which the priest must wear during all public prayers. It consists of seven sections which indicate the full priesthood of the celebrant. Bishops including the Patriarch wear it under the Eskimo."

Are Syriac Orthodox priests bringing disgrace upon themselves? After all, they're required to lead prayers with their heads covered...


43 posted on 11/22/2005 4:59:53 AM PST by djrakowski
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To: djrakowski

Here is a site dedicated to preventing abuse in the Orthodox church:
http://www.pokrov.org/Abusers/perpetrators.html

They have found about 20 cases nation wide.

How many has the Catholic church found nation wide? How many were covered up?

Why would you enter the church in America knowing the problem is epidemic?

Also, FWIW, I was raised in a Catholic school, and it was at Catholic school they encouraged us to experience the Orthodox church (during one of the periods of heightened interest in ending the schism).


44 posted on 11/22/2005 5:04:54 AM PST by x5452
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To: x5452

"Why would you enter the church in America knowing the problem is epidemic?"

Truth is truth regardless of how badly some under its mantle adhere to it. And you haven't been to my parish, which is a oasis of orthodox Catholicism in a desert of modernism.

Why, on the other hand, would I wade into the doctrinal confusion that appears to be Orthodoxy? I can't find any substantial agreement within Orthodoxy on whether they permit divorce, or don't. Or whether they permit contraception, or don't. Or on whether truth is truth regardless of people's acceptance of it, or whether the people have to consent before it becomes truth. Or even on banal matters, such as whether a priest should or should not cover his head while praying.


45 posted on 11/22/2005 5:14:00 AM PST by djrakowski
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To: djrakowski

http://sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism/

The Romans have standing ecumenical agreements with this church.

Further the Syriac Orthodox are an autocephalous church; self governing, and separate. In fact they are not in communion with many Orthodox churches.

They aren't even a result of the same schism.

http://www.answers.com/topic/syriac-orthodox-church
The Syriac Orthodox Church is an autocephalous Oriental Orthodox church based in the Middle East with members spread throughout the world. It is one of the five churches that comprised what is now the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church before the Great Schism.


46 posted on 11/22/2005 5:17:05 AM PST by x5452
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To: djrakowski

you speak of orthodoxy as though it is some all encompassing group.

I have repeatedly shown you the example of ROCOR which is as close to the early church as you will ever get, and there is no doctrinal confusion.

FTR the Catholic doctrine on evolution, as well as divorce, abortion, and contraception is confused. I have had catholic freinds ask church officials and get differing answers on ALL of those.


47 posted on 11/22/2005 5:19:03 AM PST by x5452
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To: x5452

ping for later


48 posted on 11/22/2005 5:22:41 AM PST by opticks
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To: x5452

"you speak of orthodoxy as though it is some all encompassing group."
"I have repeatedly shown you the example of ROCOR which is as close to the early church as you will ever get, and there is no doctrinal confusion."

You contradict yourself. Orthodoxy is not one all-encompassing group, but I should refer to the ROCOR as the gold standard of Orthodox doctrine. How do you reconcile these two statements?

"FTR the Catholic doctrine on evolution, as well as divorce, abortion, and contraception is confused. I have had catholic freinds ask church officials and get differing answers on ALL of those."

The manner of creation is not dogmatically declared (nor does it need to be, in my opinion). Divorce, abortion and contraception are very clear, beyond a shadow of a doubt. The opinions of dissenters do not matter, since they do not line up with the doctrines expressed within, among other places, the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Consider the following quotes from the Catechism that refute your claim of doctrinal confusion on just these two matters of abortion and contraception:

2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.

2322 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a "criminal" practice (GS 27 § 3), gravely contrary to the moral law. The Church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life.

Nothing confusing about this, except for those who would choose to dissent from revealed truth...


49 posted on 11/22/2005 5:32:46 AM PST by djrakowski
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To: NYer

Thanks for posting this! I've printed for later reading and I sent the link to a friend.


50 posted on 11/22/2005 5:44:51 AM PST by Convert from ECUSA (It really, truly is a "religion of peace", and the jihadistinian rioters in France prove it!)
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