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Vatican document on homosexuals and seminaries-- full text
Catholic World News ^ | 11/22/2005 | Congregation for Religious

Posted on 11/22/2005 8:08:48 PM PST by markomalley

Nov. 22 (CWNews.com) - The following is an unofficial translation by CWN of the full Vatican document.

Congregation for Catholic Education

Instruction concerning the criteria of vocational discernment regarding persons with homosexual tendencies, considering their admission to seminary and to Holy Orders

Introduction

Following the teaching of Vatican II and, in particular, the decree Optatam Totius on priestly formation, the Congregation for Catholic Education has published different documents to promote an adequate formation integral of future priests, offering guidance and precise norms regarding their several aspects. In the meantime also the Synod of Bishops in 1999 reflected on the formation of priests in the present circumstances, with the intent to bring to fulfillment the conciliar doctrine on the subject and to render it more explicit and incisive in the contemporary world. Following this Synod, John Paul II published the post-Synodic apostolic exhortation Pastores Dabo Vobis.

In light of this rich teaching, the present Instruction does not intend to linger on all the questions by nature emotional or sexual that require careful discernment throughout the whole period of the formation. It contains norms regarding a particular question, made more urgent by the present situation, that is that of the admission or non-admission to the seminary and Holy Orders of candidates who have profoundly deep-rooted homosexual tendencies.

I. Emotional maturity and spiritual fatherhood

According to the constant Tradition of the Church, baptized males alone may validly receive Holy Orders. By means of the sacrament of Orders, the Holy Spirit configures the candidate, to a new and specific role, Jesus Christ: the priest, in fact, sacramentally represents Christ, Head, Shepherd, and Bridegroom of the Church. Because of this configuration to Christ, the entire life of the holy priest must be animated by the gift of his whole person to the Church and with an authentic pastoral love.

The candidate for ordained ministry, therefore, must reach emotional maturity. That maturity renders him able to put himself in the proper relation with men and women, developing in him a true sense of spiritual fatherhood toward the ecclesial community entrusted to him.

II. Homosexuality and ordained ministry

From Vatican II until today, several documents of the Magisterium—and especially the Catechism of the Catholic Church— have confirmed the teaching of the Church on homosexuality. The Catechism differentiates between homosexual acts and homosexual tendencies.

Regarding acts, it teaches that, in Sacred Scripture, these are presented as grave sins. Tradition has constantly considered them to be intrinsically immoral and contrary to natural law. These, consequently, may not be approved in any case.

Concerning profoundly deep-rooted homosexual tendencies, that one discovers in a certain number of men and women, these are also objectively disordered and often constitute a trial, even for these men and women. These people must be received with respect and delicacy; one will avoid every mark of unjust discrimination with respect to them. These are called to realize the will of God in their lives and to unite to the Sacrifice of the Lord the difficulties that they may encounter.

In light of this teaching, this department, in agreement with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, holds it necessary clearly to affirm that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question, may not admit to the seminary and Holy Orders those who practice homosexuality, show profoundly deep-rooted homosexual tendencies, or support the so-called gay culture.

The above persons find themselves, in fact, in a situation that gravely obstructs a right way of relating with men and women. The negative consequences that may derive from the Ordination of persons with profoundly deep-rooted homosexual tendencies are by no means to by ignored.

If, however, one is dealing with homosexual tendencies that may be simply the expression of a transitory problem, such as for example an adolescence not yet complete, such tendencies must be overcome at least three years before ordination to the diaconate.

III. Discernment of qualification of the candidates on the part of the Church

There are two indissociable aspects in every priestly vocation: the free gift of God and the responsible liberty of the man. Vocation is a gift of divine grace, received through the Church, in the Church and for the service of the Church. Responding to the call of God, the man offers himself freely to Him in love. The desire alone to become a priest is not sufficient and there is no right to receive Ordination. It is the duty of the Church— in Her responsibility to define the necessary requisites for the reception of the Sacraments instituted by Christ— to discern the qualification of he who wishes to enter the seminary, to accompany him during his years of formation and to call him to Holy Orders, if he be judged to be in possession of the requisite qualities.

The formation of future priests must articulate, in an essential complimentarity, the four dimensions of formation: human, spiritual, intellectual, and pastoral. In this context, it is necessary to reveal the particular importance of the human formation, the necessary foundation of all formation. To admit a candidate to the ordination to the diaconate, the Church must verify, among others, that he have reached emotional maturity of a candidate for the priesthood.

The call to Orders is the personal responsibility of the Bishop or the major superior. Holding present the opinion of those to whom the responsibility of the formation is entrusted, the bishop or the major superior, before admitting a candidate to ordination, must reach a morally certain judgment on their quality. In the case of a serious doubt in this respect, they must not admit him to ordination.

The discernment of the vocation and the maturity of the candidate is also a grave duty of the rector and the other teachers of the seminary. Before every ordination, the rector must express his judgment on the quality of the candidate required by the Church.

In the discernment of qualification for Ordination, there is a grave duty for the spiritual director. While being bound by secrecy, he represents the Church in the entire forum. In meetings with the candidate, the spiritual director must especially remember the demands of the Church regarding priestly celibacy and the emotional maturity specific of a priest, as well as help him to discern if he has the necessary qualities. He has the obligation to assess all the qualities of the personality and to ascertain that the candidate does not present sexual troubles incompatible with the priesthood. If a candidate practices homosexuality or present profoundly deep-rooted homosexual tendencies, his spiritual director, like his confessor, must dissuade him, in conscience, from proceeding towards Ordination.

It remains understood that the candidate himself has the first responsibility for his own formation. He must offer himself with faith to the discernment of the Church, the bishop who calls to Orders, the rector of the seminary, the spiritual director, and the other teachers of the seminary to whom the bishop or the superior general has entrusted the duty of forming future priests. It would be gravely dishonest if a candidate were to hide his own homosexuality to enter, notwithstanding everything, to Ordination. An attitude so inauthentic does not correspond to the spirit of truth, allegiance, and availability that must characterize the personality of he who believes to be called to serve Christ and His Church in the priestly ministry.

Conclusion

This Congregation confirms the necessity that the bishops, the superior generals, and all the responsible involved fulfill a painstaking discernment regarding the qualification of candidates for Holy Orders, from the admission to the seminary until Ordination. This discernment must be done in light of a conception of the ministerial priesthood in concordance with the teaching of the Church.

The Bishops, the Episcopal Conferences, and the Superior Generals must be vigilant that the norms of this Instruction be observed faithfully for the good of the candidates themselves and always to guarantee to the Church suitable priests, true pastors according to the Heart of Christ.

The Sovereign Pontiff Benedict XVI, August 31 2005, approved this Instruction and ordered its publication.

Rome, November 4, 2005, Memorial of Saint Charles Borromeo, Patron of Seminaries

- Cardinal Zenon Grocholewski, Prefect

- Archbishop J. Michael Miller, CSB; Secretary


TOPICS: Catholic; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: holyorders; homosexualagenda; homosexuals; priesthood; seminaries; seminary; thepriesthood; vatican
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If, however, one is dealing with homosexual tendencies that may be simply the expression of a transitory problem, such as for example an adolescence not yet complete, such tendencies must be overcome at least three years before ordination to the diaconate.

Again, our "friends" in the MSM and liberal Catholic press got it wrong...why am I simply not surprised anymore???

1 posted on 11/22/2005 8:08:50 PM PST by markomalley
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To: NYer

Please put out to the Catholic ping list. Tnx!!


2 posted on 11/22/2005 8:13:14 PM PST by markomalley (Vivat Iesus!)
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To: EdReform; backhoe; Yehuda; Clint N. Suhks; saradippity; stage left; Yakboy; I_Love_My_Husband; ...

YES!!!

"...may not admit to the seminary and Holy Orders those who practice homosexuality, show profoundly deep-rooted homosexual tendencies, or support the so-called gay culture."

"The negative consequences that may derive from the Ordination of persons with profoundly deep-rooted homosexual tendencies are by no means to by ignored."

Freepmail me and DirtyHarryY2K if you want on/off this pinglist.

Looks to me as though it's cut and dried. Knowledgeable Catholics, speak up!


3 posted on 11/22/2005 8:26:34 PM PST by little jeremiah
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To: markomalley

I didn't see anything about priests already ordained who identify and act as homosexuals. Any insights would be appreciated.


4 posted on 11/22/2005 8:33:27 PM PST by little jeremiah
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To: little jeremiah

There may have been some norms put out...but I think the bottom line is that they are required to keep it zipped. Somebody else may have more insight. The other thing is that the enforcement would be within the realm of the priest's ordinary, so standardized rules might be applied as well as the old 1961 rule was on keeping gays from being ordained.

Having said that, ordination gives a person an indelible mark, just like baptism and confirmation. You can't remove that mark. The most they could do is laicize the person...remove his faculties and prohibit him from calling himself a priest, etc. But they are still a priest...just interdicted from acting like one.


5 posted on 11/22/2005 8:43:16 PM PST by markomalley (Vivat Iesus!)
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To: markomalley
I like this part:

It would be gravely dishonest if a candidate were to hide his own homosexuality to enter, notwithstanding everything, to Ordination. An attitude so inauthentic does not correspond to the spirit of truth, allegiance, and availability that must characterize the personality of he who believes to be called to serve Christ and His Church in the priestly ministry

6 posted on 11/22/2005 9:05:40 PM PST by BizzeeMom
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To: markomalley

Gladly!


7 posted on 11/22/2005 9:23:51 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: markomalley; nickcarraway; sandyeggo; Siobhan; Lady In Blue; NYer; american colleen; Pyro7480; ...
Catholic Discussion Ping!

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Catholic Discussion Ping List.

8 posted on 11/22/2005 9:26:03 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: little jeremiah

Duhh


9 posted on 11/22/2005 9:30:43 PM PST by fatima (Never do anything.)
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: little jeremiah

Never work with a priest on air-Father Robert's,Monsignor Dale Fushek Life teen EWTN.


11 posted on 11/22/2005 9:37:10 PM PST by fatima (Never do anything.)
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To: 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ...


12 posted on 11/22/2005 10:01:31 PM PST by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, algae)
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To: markomalley

"If, however, one is dealing with homosexual tendencies that may be simply the expression of a transitory problem, such as for example an adolescence not yet complete, such tendencies must be overcome at least three years before ordination to the diaconate."

That says it all.


13 posted on 11/22/2005 10:04:45 PM PST by Sun (Hillary Clinton is pro-ILLEGAL immigration. Don't let her fool you. She has a D- /F immigr. rating.)
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To: sandyeggo
Isn't it at least four or more years before a seminarian reaches the diaconate? So is it possible that one could be admitted to the seminary before such tendencies are overcome?

Exactly. This strikes me, not so much as a bone thrown to the pro-homo types within the Church, but a lever for kicking people out of seminary before they are ordained to the diaconate. That is, if they've demonstrated any homosexual tendencies while in the seminary, they can be booted for that reason explicitly.

The document looks very good. Better than I expected, frankly.
14 posted on 11/22/2005 10:21:07 PM PST by Antoninus (The greatest gift parents can give to their children is siblings.)
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To: markomalley

Is any sacrament valid if the person enters it with a mental reservation? If a marriage can be annuled, why not an ordination?


15 posted on 11/22/2005 10:22:47 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS
Ordinations can be declared null and there are provisions to do so in the Code of Canon Law. However, the invalidating causes of nullity of orders are much stricter (understandably: for all the sacraments of an invalidly ordained "priest," excepting baptisms and marriages, would be performed invalidly).

Poor moral character does not invalidate ordination: what would be necessary would be a positive intention on part of the man being ordained to not be ordained a priest. "the minister of the sacrament acts in the person of the whole Church, whose minister he is; and in the words which he pronounces, the intention of the Church is expressed, which suffices for the accomplishment of the sacrament, unless a contrary intention on the part of the minister or of the one receiving the sacrament is expressed externally." (St. Thomas, Summa Theologiae, III q. 64 a. 8).

16 posted on 11/22/2005 10:38:18 PM PST by gbcdoj (Let us ask the Lord with tears, that according to his will so he would shew his mercy to us Jud 8:17)
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To: Antoninus
but a lever for kicking people out of seminary before they are ordained to the diaconate.

Thanks, that's a positive take on it that I hadn't considered. I suppose the big (I mean BIG) problem with this or anything the Vatican orders is enforcement.

No matter what rulings come out of Rome, the bishops seem to feel quite free to ignore them. I don't know what teeth are going to be put into this; I think that will be the crucial point.

One hopes that BXVI's enforcement will be a little more energetic than that of his predecessor, but it is in any case a very difficult thing, particularly since the US bishops (and superiors) have been allowed to run amok for so many years. Even as we speak, they're probably sitting in bed reading this with a knowing smile prior to tossing it into the recycling bin.

17 posted on 11/23/2005 2:02:05 AM PST by livius
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To: Antoninus
Exactly. This strikes me, not so much as a bone thrown to the pro-homo types within the Church, but a lever for kicking people out of seminary before they are ordained to the diaconate. That is, if they've demonstrated any homosexual tendencies while in the seminary, they can be booted for that reason explicitly.

The document looks very good. Better than I expected, frankly.

This was the only phrase that bothered me, but it's necessary. All sinners deserve a chance for repentence. Certainly there are many heterosexual seminarians who were sexually active before entering the priesthood.

I can't imagine a better statement. I'm delighted. What a great Thanksgiving present.

Now prepare for an all out war against the Church in the West.

18 posted on 11/23/2005 4:30:44 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: markomalley
According to the constant Tradition of the Church, baptized males alone may validly receive Holy Orders

**************

Is this document intended to address more than the issue of homosexuality within the priesthood? It seems that it is making a point here.

19 posted on 11/23/2005 5:14:11 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: trisham

According to the constant Tradition of the Church, baptized males alone may validly receive Holy Orders

**************

Is this document intended to address more than the issue of homosexuality within the priesthood? It seems that it is making a point here.


The document's title is:


Instruction concerning the criteria of vocational discernment regarding persons with homosexual tendencies, considering their admission to seminary and to Holy Orders

Therefore, I believe that the purpose is just that.

20 posted on 11/23/2005 5:24:18 AM PST by markomalley (Vivat Iesus!)
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To: markomalley
The document's title is: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Instruction concerning the criteria of vocational discernment regarding persons with homosexual tendencies, considering their admission to seminary and to Holy Orders -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Therefore, I believe that the purpose is just that.

****************

Perhaps.

21 posted on 11/23/2005 5:31:23 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Antoninus

Bingo. The way I read it, this takes subjectivity away from the question of whether to keep or kick out a homosexual seminarian. This puts the folks who run our seminaries on notice: if there's a violation of these guidelines, they must go, and the onus is on YOU to be obedient to this declaration.

I'm glad they addressed the issue of deception, as well.


22 posted on 11/23/2005 5:33:05 AM PST by Rutles4Ever ("Fizellas! Looks like you guys are up to no good. Well, THIS gang used to be like that TOO, 3, 4)
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To: livius
No matter what rulings come out of Rome, the bishops seem to feel quite free to ignore them. I don't know what teeth are going to be put into this; I think that will be the crucial point.

Very true, but the bishops are being given a lot less "wiggle room" than before and quite frankly most of these guys don't like to make waves. There are enough of us "hard line" Catholics out here to give them a tough time if they don't adhere to what the Vatican wants, the Internet helps in this regard.

23 posted on 11/23/2005 5:45:26 AM PST by Diva
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To: trisham; markomalley
Is this document intended to address more than the issue of homosexuality within the priesthood? It seems that it is making a point here.

I think that line ("baptized males alone may validly receive Holy Orders") was intended to affirm the truth. Women with "chalice envy" may be disturbed by it, but so what...

24 posted on 11/23/2005 6:24:23 AM PST by COBOL2Java (The Katrina Media never gets anything right, so why should I believe them?)
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To: COBOL2Java; markomalley
I think that line ("baptized males alone may validly receive Holy Orders") was intended to affirm the truth. Women with "chalice envy" may be disturbed by it, but so what...

*************

I wasn't surprised or unhappy to see it there, given the amount of attention it has received recently.

25 posted on 11/23/2005 6:56:44 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Aquinasfan
"Now prepare for an all out war against the Church in the West."

Strange as it may sound, if war against the Church needs to occur, let it. Christ Jesus gave us his promise. We will prevail. Let it come, we're ready. None can stand against the Will of God.

26 posted on 11/23/2005 7:07:24 AM PST by Romish_Papist (Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.)
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To: Romish_Papist

Amen.


27 posted on 11/23/2005 7:11:51 AM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: markomalley
Link to actual document
28 posted on 11/23/2005 7:14:15 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: RobbyS

Priests can be laicized.


29 posted on 11/23/2005 7:15:47 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: markomalley
When dealing, instead, with homosexual tendencies that might only be a manifestation of a transitory problem, as, for example, delayed adolescence, these must be clearly overcome at least three years before diaconal Ordination.

There's a critical point here, which I hope has not been overlooked.

The document does not say (as was previously widely reported) that homosexual activity must have ceased three years prior to ordination, or that the candidate must have remained celibate for 3 years.

It states quite clearly that homosexual tendencies must have been overcome. Big, big difference.

This is a critical point which must not be glossed over. It means, in effect, that nobody with homosexual tendencies can be ordained. That includes the celibate homosexual.

This instruction is good. Very good. As always, the problem will be implementation.

30 posted on 11/23/2005 7:19:22 AM PST by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

yep. I can see some dioceses will turn their backs totally...and others will be saying Hurrah!


31 posted on 11/23/2005 7:34:40 AM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: little jeremiah

The church is asking men who are pondering the priesthood to stop all homosexual relations for 3 years before becoming a priest. If you cannot as a man, stop yourself from having sexual relations with men for three years, than what the hell are you doing even thinking about becoming a priest in the first place. As everyone knows, you are to be celibate for LIFE! So if you are complaining about that guideline from the new Vatican Decree on homosexuality and the priesthood than good riddance to you!

The church is only asking of it's future clergy to wholly and fully abide by church doctrine. Homosexuality is deemed to be a sin by the catholic church. If you want to be a sinner that is your choice, if you want to be a priest than you must absolutely change your ways or do not become a priest. It is that simple!!!!!!

These rules only apply to those who are pondering the priesthood of the Catholic church, so who cares if gay activists or the media in general like it.

Whose to say that the church is not also dealing with those Bishop's who were responsible for the mishandling of the abuse cases in the first place. I am sure that the church is implementing procedures to make sure that this happens no more. The media picks and chooses what it likes to report, we all know that. They would love you to think that this measure is the only thing that they are doing.

I wish people would just stand back and keep themselves out of my religion! Especially the secular left media! I happen to think that this is a good step in weeding out possible abusers. As I said, if you cannot stop yourself from doing homosexual acts or even pondering them seriously for just three years than there is something wrong with the fact that you are trying to become a CELIBATE priest!


32 posted on 11/23/2005 7:42:07 AM PST by Mrs. Frogjerk
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To: Coleus

Putting the smackdown on heresy since 1981

 

33 posted on 11/23/2005 7:46:54 AM PST by Incorrigible (If I lead, follow me; If I pause, push me; If I retreat, kill me.)
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To: Mrs. Frogjerk

They are asking all men who are thinking about the seminary that if they have some idea about homosexual orientation, that before they are allowed to enter the diaconate, which is before they get to the priesthood, that they have gone three years without that problem.

Not practice.

Inclination.

Sometimes boys get a bit confused. This is to let those who honestly got confused about this as teens to get time to have their normal adult interests kick in.

If you practice, if you consider yourself gay, if you feel part of the gay culture, you are not wanted, no matter how long it's been since you've been celibate.

It's not saying if you are homosexual, if you can go three years without having sex you can get into the diaconate.


34 posted on 11/23/2005 7:53:00 AM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: Knitting A Conundrum

Thnaks for the clarification.

I should know better than to get my information from articles linked from the Drudge Report. Nothing against Matt Drudge, but the articles that his site links you to are a bit slanted sometimes. Stupid on my part.


35 posted on 11/23/2005 8:02:11 AM PST by Mrs. Frogjerk
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To: Mrs. Frogjerk

My first thought was like yours, and how certain bishops were going to run with it. The bad bishops will still run with it, because that is how they are, pray God that what they have done touches their hearts in time for them to repent, but it gives other bishops much more ammunition now to rein in seminaries with problems.


36 posted on 11/23/2005 8:05:13 AM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: marshmallow

This document dares to make the assertion that these 'tendencies' can indeed be overcome. Horrors!! The secular left looks upon sexuality as a "hard-core" instinct within a person. Something that - whether heterosexual or homosexual - cannot be repressed, or disciplined, in any way. To suggest that the opposite is true is seen as an infringement of 'rights' and freedoms.


37 posted on 11/23/2005 8:26:22 AM PST by Cookie123
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To: Cookie123

Sometime back in the 1960's, the Church - well, some of its more "progressive" members - decided to replace Christ with Freud, and it's been all downhill ever since.

I will admit that even Freud thought that homosexuality was a sign of a personality disorder, but in general, it was Freud's idea that sex was all, that one's so-called "sexual nature" trumped everything else in one's being.

Christianity, of course, simply regarded it as one more part of human life and human being, and by no means the most important one in itself.

In many ways, the 1960's were the full flowering of Freudian thought, which had long been an undercurrent in popular literature and university thought and teaching. It swept the field, not strictly in the form of Freud's initial ideas, but in the sort of popularized conception of it where sex was enshrined as the most important activity in the world and one's so-called "sexual nature" became a sort of independent god-let that had to be cherished and allowed to do whatever it wanted.

What is very sad is that so many in the Church cheerfully followed this particular Pied Piper. I've never been clear on why Catholic thought was so ill prepared to deal with Freud, although perhaps the fact that the modernists had been busy undermining Catholicism for several decades at that point contributed to it.

I also think that the conversion of the Church in the 1960s from Catholicism to Freudianism is one of the great neglected areas of investigation.

After the scandals of recent years, many of which were perpretated while the priests were undergoing "psychological counseling" or had even completed it, the psychiatric profession may be losing its grip on the Church, at least in the US. But the intellectual influence still remains, and many modern Catholics' automatic assumptions about human nature are Freudian and not Christian.


38 posted on 11/23/2005 9:12:10 AM PST by livius
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To: Mrs. Frogjerk
"I wish people would just stand back and keep themselves out of my religion! Especially the secular left media!"

Absolutely nailed it and right on! You made my day, thank you!
39 posted on 11/23/2005 9:42:58 AM PST by Convert from ECUSA (It really, truly is a "religion of peace", and the jihadistinian rioters in France prove it!)
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To: sandyeggo
So is it possible that one could be admitted to the seminary before such tendencies are overcome?

Quite possibly, but such tendencies will be evident in the Seminary. They always have been, but in the last 25 years or so, some Spiritual Directors have chosen to ignore them.

40 posted on 11/23/2005 10:01:44 AM PST by SuziQ
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To: markomalley

Why are they liberalozing the policies towards homosexuals in the priesthood at a time like this. The exception is going to define the rule.


41 posted on 11/23/2005 10:21:50 AM PST by nickcarraway (I'm Only Alive, Because a Judge Hasn't Ruled I Should Die...)
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To: Incorrigible
A German Shepard would be more appropriate!!
42 posted on 11/23/2005 10:42:28 AM PST by Irish_Thatcherite (~~~A vote for Bertie Ahern is a vote for Gerry Adams!~~~)
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To: livius
One hopes that BXVI's enforcement will be a little more energetic than that of his predecessor, but it is in any case a very difficult thing, particularly since the US bishops (and superiors) have been allowed to run amok for so many years. Even as we speak, they're probably sitting in bed reading this with a knowing smile prior to tossing it into the recycling bin.

No doubt about that. However, for many of these bishops, even if the document said, "Hey, you with the mitre. Yeah, I'm talking to you. DO NOT ORDAIN HOMOS. End transmission," they would have ignored it.

All you have to do is look at how Bishop Trautmann's committee is handling the changes mandated by Liturgiam Authenticam. They've basically over-ruled the Vatican's demands by saying, in effect, that we can't change things because "the people are used to the old translation." Funny, how that didn't seem to matter to them in 1970.

We have a multitude of very disobediant and possibly heretical bishops running around here in the US. It's long past time for a clean sweep.
43 posted on 11/23/2005 10:54:55 AM PST by Antoninus (The greatest gift parents can give to their children is siblings.)
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To: Aquinasfan
Now prepare for an all out war against the Church in the West.

Lots of us have been mobilized for this war for a while. We need to do a better job recruiting, however...
44 posted on 11/23/2005 10:56:01 AM PST by Antoninus (The greatest gift parents can give to their children is siblings.)
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To: marshmallow; sinkspur
The document does not say (as was previously widely reported) that homosexual activity must have ceased three years prior to ordination, or that the candidate must have remained celibate for 3 years.

Yeah, I guess John Allen and the National Anti-Catholic Distorter isn't as reliable a source as some of our fellow FReepers seem to think.
45 posted on 11/23/2005 11:00:57 AM PST by Antoninus (The greatest gift parents can give to their children is siblings.)
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To: Antoninus

I tend to agree. Once expelled from a seminary for this reason, the expulsion will be like a "Mark of Cain" everywhere else the individual might try to go to later.

I think, upon reflection, that this is a good thing to have put in. At first, I was dismayed that there wasn't an outright ban. That, of course, could work. But, this way, a "pool" of prospective seminarians of homosexual tendency can be eliminated from present and future seminary attendance when they can be relied upon (almost guaranteed) to "flunk" the time period. Once out, they will never get back in (if this is actually going to have teeth in it, and get enforced), and the appropriate message will have been sent. The underground network will be essentially broken.

Seminary rectors who have facilitated the status quo for years also need to be dealt with in an even tougher fashion, else the document may be gutted. Many in this country should be dismissed forthwith. I wish that issue was directly addressed.


46 posted on 11/23/2005 11:05:16 AM PST by magisterium
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To: livius
I believe much of the recurring abuse came about as a result of the psychiatrists convincing Bishops that the priests were 'cured' of the problem. These priests were allowed back into ministry and the abuse began again.

I've often wondered why no psychiatrists received blame in all the media surrounding the abuse scandal.

47 posted on 11/23/2005 11:06:21 AM PST by SuziQ
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To: magisterium
Seminary rectors who have facilitated the status quo for years also need to be dealt with in an even tougher fashion, else the document may be gutted. Many in this country should be dismissed forthwith. I wish that issue was directly addressed.

I agree. That's the core of the problem and the likely reason why the Vatican is auditing American seminaries right now. Basically, any seminary under the control of a known homosexual bishop (with Levada in Rome, I'm sure Benedict knows quite a bit on this front) should be shut down until further notice. It's not like they're producing many vocations anyway--and they ones they are producing are only making things worse.
48 posted on 11/23/2005 11:16:41 AM PST by Antoninus (The greatest gift parents can give to their children is siblings.)
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To: livius

I recall that Bishop Sheed was very much against Freudianism. I gather that he knew that many priests had fallen under its spell. As regards homosexuality, Jung had what I think an interesting observation: he said that it is much more pervalent in urban societies, that in such societies there is often more confusion about sexual roles than in rural environs. No doubt that there is a natural element in the disorder. Francis Parkman found it among thr Sioux indians. A handful are unfit to be counted as braves and dress and work with the women. I remain unconvinced, however, that the cause is natural, exc ept in the way that natural weakness lead all of us to take the paths of least resistance.


49 posted on 11/23/2005 11:49:20 AM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Antoninus

By their fruits shall you know them? ;-)


50 posted on 11/23/2005 11:50:33 AM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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