Posted on 11/30/2005 5:58:13 AM PST by HarleyD
The sharp knives of the "unholy spirits" will be here soon, no doubt.
Father, grant me the strength to live a life worthy of those who have gone before me.
Pardon me while I shake my head and roll my eyes.
Got any proof whatsoever that this was "the official position of the church"? Any proof, beyond "this guy says so"?
Oh, sorry, I'm just an "unholy spirit" for insisting that people tell the truth, even when it doesn't serve their purpose of slamming Rome as the source of all evils.
Is it the act of an "unholy spirit" to insist that "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor" even applies when "thy neighbor" is a Papist?
Incidentally, I'll go on record as saying that it was wrong to execute John Huss. Will you go on record as saying that spreading falsehoods about other Christians' doctrine or history is also wrong, and that two wrongs never make a right? Or is that just a position held by "unholy spirits"?
Regarding unholy spirits, only you would know if and when the Holy Spirit is speaking through you. His Voice is loving and kind. I am a human being and often speak from my human side (which is unholy, of course)...and often find myself apogizing for being a jerk.
I don't accuse you.
That said, there is sometimes an anger and chauvinism expressed on threads like this that is unseemly and unbecoming of children of God.
If I am not mistaken, He has called us to love each other.
Well ... not always. :-) I recall Our Lord calling the Pharisees "whited sepulchres" and telling them they were "true children of their father, the Devil".
Sometimes the truth does not sound "loving and kind" ... but which is more loving, to tell the harsh truth, or to sugar-coat it?
If I am not mistaken, He has called us to love each other.
The fathers record that St. John the Apostle, when he was a very old man and had to be carried to church because he couldn't walk, preached just one message: "Little children, love one another. It is the Lord's command, and if you do it, that is enough."
But, by the same token, telling falsehoods about one other is not an act of love, and righteous anger when falsehoods are being repeated is not necessarily the wrong reaction.
My point is this. Let's heal the breach not fan the flames. Protestants and Catholics have many misconceptions about each other, but the devout from each group are incredibly alike in their devotion to Him. I don't think any true believer would want to spread a lie but we all make mistakes. Let's help each other see the light...let's gently point out each others errors.
You would be hard pressed to make more mistakes than me, so don't think I am criticizing you. Anyway, for what its worth...
brother, I hearily agree. Which is why such threads are NOT conducive to ecumenicism or coming together. What is the purpose of bringing up this mess, this embarrassment to the History of Christianity? What is so darn great about people leaving the Church to form another church? What does this say about Christians, to an outsider? That we squabble among ourselves and don't listen to our own Scriptures that tell us that we are to love our enemies and NOT become divided?
This article is meant to fan flames. It is meant to keep Protestants in joyful ignorance about the stance of Rome on such issues, while patting Protestants on the back for their continued "protesting". It is meant to keep the "movement" going forward. What is sad is that the DEVIL is behind ANY movements of disunion and disunity among the Body. Consider that prayerfully. It is one matter to correct the other when faulty doctrine or beliefs pop up, to disagree with another over doctrine. It is quite another to constantly be refering to a point in Christian history for the express purpose of MAINTAINING DISUNITY, to maintain separation within the Body. It is not time to re-visit the Reformation, but time to heal the wounds of the past and reconcile our differences.
We have a much bigger enemy out there, the secular world, then each other.
Brother in Christ
How does one know if the Spirit is speaking to them when it disagrees with another person who makes the same claim? Thus, the problem of Protestantism. This is the danger of listening to one's own "conscience", attempting to judge what the Spirit is saying - sometimes against the Church itself. A Body in dissension will fall, says Christ.
Regards
Prayer...diligent prayer. And as you said earlier (to paraphrase), if we focus on the big picture (Him), all our little disagreements melt away.
And if a disagreement still bothers us, reach out in humility instead of contentiousness and, at least in my experience, what we thought was a difference might be just a misunderstanding.
Human beings, both Protestant and Catholic, are just human and as such are prone to all kind of errors. Yet Jesus marches on. Protestants and Catholics undergo a constant reformation collectively and as individuals...and, instead of feeling ashamed, we should jump for joy.
In a way, reformation is nothing but returning to the Lord from our human errors. And that is what is so awesome about the Lord. He is always the same...always perfect. We blunder along (all of us) and eventually correct our course to back to His narrow path.
You are right that the past is painful, but it isn't nearly so painful when we realize that we have no room to blame those in our past. They were tying their best just as we are.
Humility is in short supply these days...
Often-times, I find that our disagreements are indeed misunderstandings. Thus, I post here to try to clear up such things. For example, many Protestants believe that Catholics believe in "works salvation", which we don't. But to the outsider, it might appear that way. But when I discuss such issues with another, a lot of the times, we agree in principle. I also like to think that the other person may have a better understanding of the Catholic way of coming to God. Since misinformation and misunderstanding is often WHY many people hate the Catholic Church, such conversation is necessary to clear away ignorance. The topic of this thread, however, doesn't help matters, in my opinion.
As long as man's mind is clouded in sin, it is difficult to tell if something is from the Spirit, the Devil, or our own minds... Time will tell. Prayer is good advice.
Brother in Christ
The proof is in reading the entire sentence you quoted:
In historical Church documents in Medieval times and before you will find that when referring to members of the church it almost always refers strictly to the hierarchy of the Church.
The Church's practice of withholding the cup from the laity only served to increase the distinction between the church (who practiced communion of both kinds) and the commoner (who was only permitted communion of one kind, bread).
This led Huss to argue that John 6:54 required all to be permitted communion of both kinds and also that the definition of church (ekklesia) should be as a congregation (all are the church) and not just that of the universal church (the hierarchy is the church).
Examples?
In any case, that is not what the original citation claimed, which was that the official teaching of the Church at the time was that lay people were not members.
Protocommunist Taborites
Made a mockery of our Christian rites
The arch-heretic Huss
Had set these demons loose
So his passion mixed feelings invites.
I read Christian history and became a Catholic because of it. FWIW
Then you have answered your own question.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.