Posted on 11/30/2005 6:41:45 PM PST by NYer
Refers to St. Augustine's Commentary on Psalm 136(137)
VATICAN CITY, NOV. 30, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith, says Benedict XVI.
The Pope made this affirmation today at the general audience, commenting on a meditation written by St. Augustine (354-430).
On a rainy morning in Rome, the Holy Father's meditation, addressed to more than 23,000 people gathered in St. Peter's Square, concentrated on the suffering of the Jewish people in the Babylonian exile, expressed dramatically in Psalm 136(137).
The Pontiff referred to Augustine's commentary on this composition of the Jewish people, noting that this "Father of the Church introduces a surprising element of great timeliness."
Augustine "knows that also among the inhabitants of Babylon there are people who are committed to peace and the good of the community, despite the fact that they do not share the biblical faith, that they do not know the hope of the Eternal City to which we aspire," Benedict XVI stated.
"They have a spark of desire for the unknown, for the greatest, for the transcendent, for a genuine redemption," explained the Pope, quoting Augustine.
This spark
"And he says that among the persecutors, among the nonbelievers, there are people with this spark, with a kind of faith, of hope, in the measure that is possible for them in the circumstances in which they live," the Holy Father continued.
"With this faith in an unknown reality, they are really on the way to the authentic Jerusalem, to Christ," he clarified.
Continuing with his quotes from Augustine, the Pope added that "God will not allow them to perish with Babylon, having predestined them to be citizens of Jerusalem, on the condition, however, that, living in Babylon, they do not seek pride, outdated pomp and arrogance."
The Bishop of Rome concluded by inviting those present to pray to the Lord "that he will awaken in all of us this desire, this openness to God, and that those who do not know God may also be touched by his love, so that all of us journey together toward the definitive City and that the light of this City might also shine in our time and in our world."
I have a feeling that this is going to cause a great deal of controversy.
Baptists ain't gonna like this one. Gonna be ugly.
For many, many years, Catholics were taught "Outside the Church, there is no salvation." In the NewThink of Vatican II, tradition is easily forgotten ...
There is nothing in the New Testament that supports this.
I believe that Buddha will be saved.
Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since 'without faith it is impossible to please [God]' and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"
As for St. Augustine's opinion on the matter, he couldn't be clearer: "If, however, Christ did not die in vain, then human nature cannot by any means be justified and redeemed from God's most righteous wrath--in a word, from punishment--except by faith and the sacrament of the blood of Christ." (On Nature and Grace, 2).
My father in law was a cultural Christian... went to church because it was the civilized thing to do and then, three days before he died of cancer, sitting up all night because he was afraid to lie down, he saw the clock saying 3:16 and believed. I know he was saved.
I have a feeling that this is going to cause a great deal of controversy.
&&
This is nothing different from what I learned from my Baltimore Catechism over 50 years ago.
But it wasn't reported as worldwide news back then.
Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. 13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Probably a typo in translation: of course even the nonbelievers can save, as the First Church of the Almighty Dollar has always taught, and then if they invest prudently, they were vouched the miracle of compounded interest for their salvation. Even those who do not save still can do OK, but that requires them to win a jackpot or to receive a sizable inheritance.
Thank you for this post!
My adoptive father was born to Lutheran parents. They were both baptized but opted not to baptize their one and only child.
He met and eventually married my mother and promised to the Church that he would raise me Catholic. He never renegued on that promise. Three years ago, his mother died. In her will, though not a practicing Lutheran, she left all her worldly possessions to the Lutheran Church. My stepfather comlied with her wishes.
At Christmas last year, he asked my mother to give him a Bible. She wasn't quite sure how to approach this since she was raised Catholic. In the end, she gave him a KJV Bible. I doubt that he ever read it.
In my office, there is a wonderful man who was raised catholic, married a catholic woman in a catholic church. They are non practicing catholics. When their only child was born, they decided not to have her baptized into the catholic faith, opting to allow her the "freedom of choice" in selecting a religion when she grows up.
Reflecting on my own step father's dilemma, I have attempted on several occasions to challenge him in this approach. Children raised in a secular household have no basis of faith on which to build. It is a thorn in my side and I pray for this family each and every night, especially their 5 year old daughter who associates Santa Claus with Christmas and the Easter Bunny with Easter. It grieves me no end, having watched my father struggle with the mixed messages he was fed over the years by the mainstream media.
I hope and pray that Benedict XVI has a good handle on this concept. My co-worker's child is a victim of her parent's decision. Both parents are solid conservatives in their thinking and practices. For whatever reason, they have turned their backs on the Catholic Church and entrusted their only, beloved child to the whims of the world. Please remember Sara in your prayers.
Unbelievable!
I fully understand the thought process that get's one there, but it is totally unbiblical.
Paul says...
For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed?
And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?
And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"
- Rom 10
Since God is just, everyone has an opportunity to receive the Light. This is one of the true names of Christ. (I AM the Way, the Truth and the Light.) You are judged by the Light you have received.
Revelation 5:9 also speaks of the universal availability of the salvation from Christ:
"...with your blood you purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue, people and nation."
Clearly there are many tribes, tongues, peoples and nations which had already died out and were extinct before the coming of Jesus Christ, and many, many more which became extinct over the last 20 centuries without ever hearing the name of Jesus Christ. Are they all damned? By no means! Because every one of these people, every person who "comes into the world," can be enlightened by the Light. Can repent and believe. Can choose the Light, Who is in fact the one Mediator between God and the human race: Jesus Christ.
This is not universal salvation. This is the universal availability of salvation. 1 Tim. 2: 3-4 This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
John 14... "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
"You are judged by the Light you have received."
"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."
Luke 12
"...many, many more which became extinct over the last 20 centuries without ever hearing the name of Jesus Christ. Are they all damned? By no means!"
The Bible never directly addresses this issue. You can't build solid theology on implication. The best you can get to is what Abraham said of God...
"Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you!
Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?""
Unbelievable!
Now has the Pope really said this, which would conflict with Catholic doctrine, or did he just say something terribly confusing and unclear and someone at Zenit came away with, "Nonbelievers Too Can Be Saved, Says Pope"? You tell me.
Here is the translation of the complete reflection that the pope gave:
Date: 2005-11-30
Commentary on Psalm 136(137)
"A National Hymn of Sorrow"
VATICAN CITY, NOV. 30, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Here is a translation of the address Benedict XVI gave at today's general audience, which he dedicated to a reflection on Psalm 136(137).
* * *
1. On this first Wednesday of Advent, a liturgical time of silence, watching and prayer in preparation for Christmas, we meditate on Psalm 136(137), which has become famous in the Latin version of its beginning, "Super flumina Babylonis." The text evokes the tragedy that the Jewish people lived through during the destruction of Jerusalem, which took place in the year 586 B.C., and the subsequent exile in Babylon. We are before a national hymn of sorrow, characterized by a dry nostalgia of what was lost.
This profound invocation to the Lord to liberate his faithful from the slavery of Babylon also expresses sentiments of hope and expectation of the salvation with which we have begun the Advent journey.
The first part of the Psalm (cf. verses 1-4) has, as a background, the land of exile, with its rivers and canals, which watered the plain of Babylon, headquarters of the deported Jews. It is as a symbolic anticipation of the extermination camps in which the Jewish people -- in the century that just ended -- were led to an infamous operation of death, which has remained as an indelible disgrace in the history of humanity.
The second part of the Psalm (cf. verses 5-6) is full of loving memories of Zion, the lost city, but which continues to be alive in the hearts of the deported.
2. Involved in the psalmist's words are the hand, tongue, palate, voice and tears. The hand is indispensable for the one who plays the lyre. But it has remained paralyzed (cf. verse 5) by sorrow because, moreover, the lyres have been hung on the willows.
The singer needs the tongue, but now it cleaves to his palate (cf. verse 6). The songs of Zion are the Lord's canticles (verses 3-4), they are not folkloric songs or performances. Only in the liturgy and in the freedom of a people can they rise up to heaven.
3. God, who is the ultimate arbiter of history, will be able to understand and accept, according to his justice, the cry of the victims, beyond the harsh tones that it sometimes acquires.
We want to commend to St. Augustine a further meditation on our psalm. In it, the Father of the Church introduces a surprising element of great timeliness: He knows that also among the inhabitants of Babylon there are people who are committed to peace and the good of the community, despite the fact that they do not share the biblical faith, that they do not know the hope of the Eternal City to which we aspire. They have a spark of desire for the unknown, for the greatest, for the transcendent, for a genuine redemption.
And he says that among the persecutors, among the nonbelievers, there are people with this spark, with a kind of faith, of hope, in the measure that is possible for them in the circumstances in which they live. With this faith in an unknown reality, they are really on the way to the authentic Jerusalem, to Christ. And with this opening of hope, valid also for the Babylonians -- as Augustine calls them -- for those who do not know Christ, and not even God, and who nevertheless desire the unknown, the eternal, he exhorts us not to look only at the material things of the present moment, but to persevere in the path to God. Only with this greater hope can we transform this world in a just way.
St. Augustine says it with these words: "If we are citizens of Jerusalem ... and we have to live on this earth, in the confusion of the present world, in the present Babylon, where we do not live as citizens but are prisoners, it is necessary that we not only sing what the Psalm says, but that we live it: This is achieved with a profound aspiration of the heart, fully and religiously desirous of the Eternal City."
And making reference to the "earthly city called Babylon," he adds: In it "there are people who, moved by love for it, contrive to ensure peace, temporal peace, without nourishing another hope in their hearts than the joy of working for peace. And we see them make every effort to be useful to the earthly society. However, if they are committed with a pure conscience in these tasks, God will not allow them to perish with Babylon, having predestined them to be citizens of Jerusalem, on the condition, however, that, living in Babylon, they do not seek pride, outdated pomp and arrogance. ... He sees their service and will show them the other city, toward which they must really long and orient all their effort" ("Esposizioni sui Salmi" [Commentaries on the Psalms] 136, 1-2: "New Augustinian Library," XXVIII, Rome, 1977, pp. 397, 399).
And let us pray to the Lord that he will awaken in all of us this desire, this openness to God, and that those who do not know God may also be touched by his love, so that all of us journey together toward the definitive City and that the light of this City might also shine in our time and in our world.
[Translation by ZENIT]
[At the end of the audience, the Holy Father read this summary in English:]
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
Psalm 136, the subject of this week's catechesis, is a song of lamentation for the destruction of Jerusalem and the Babylonian Exile, a heartfelt prayer for liberation and an expression of longing for the Holy City.
Its evocation of Babylon as a place of slavery and sorrow can be seen as a symbolic foreshadowing of the horrors of the death camps of the last century, in which the Jewish people were destined for extermination.
In their grief, the exiles are no longer able to sing "the songs of the Lord," which can only rise up to God in freedom and in the setting of liturgical prayer.
During this Advent season, the Church reads this Psalm, with its plea for liberation and its nostalgic yearning for the Holy City, as an expression of her own prayerful hope for the Lord's coming.
As St. Augustine tells us, we are called not only to sing this Psalm, but to live it, by lifting up our hearts with profound religious longing for the heavenly Jerusalem.
[The Pope then greeted pilgrims in several languages. In English, he said:]
I offer a warm welcome to the English-speaking pilgrims and visitors present in today's audience, and in particular to the various student groups. May this Advent be for all of you a time of reflection, prayer and joyful expectation in preparation for the mystery of Christmas. Upon you and your families I cordially invoke God's abundant blessings of joy and peace.
Sort of at odds with what Jesus said, "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."
"You tell me."
I think he is saying that among those who do not know Christ, if they follow their desire for genuine redemption they will be saved. It is a fairly classical argument and folllows the normal logical progression.
(Although it could be argued that he is merely bringing attention to a "surprising" comment by St. Augustine.)
"Good Lord, they the only ones who can be saved,"
I agree
I suspect that everything in that meditation leads up to this key idea:
And let us pray to the Lord that he will awaken in all of us this desire, this openness to God, and that those who do not know God may also be touched by his love, so that all of us journey together toward the definitive City and that the light of this City might also shine in our time and in our world.
Sounds like another version of " O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of thy mercy."
I think you were just trying to save space, but I think your use of "a genuine redemption" really turns what Augustine was saying on its head. It is not a desire for anything for themselves (redemption), but a desire for "good" (peace, temporal peace) for others. It's the selfless sacrifice that I think Augustine is pinning this salvation on.
Beautiful. You are correct, Mrs Don-o.
To all:
"I am the good shepherd; and I know mine, and mine know me. As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep. And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd." -- John 10:14-16
Jesus Christ is the only Way to salvation. However, it is not for us to say how He saves any particular person. He can save people in any way He wishes.
"No salvation outside the Church". But do aborted children go to Hell? How about jungle tribesmen who have never heard of Christianity? How about those who were taught a hateful, Pharisaic version of Chistianity and who fled the faith in disgust? How about Mormons, who honestly believe that Joseph Smith's ersatz Christianity is the Real Thing? (No offense meant to Mormons; even though I don't believe your religion is true, I know that God will honor your faith.) How about those with mental disorders, or the retarded, or those who are brought up to believe in the teachings of Mohammed, or Moses, or Madeline Murray O'Hare? And what of the millions who sincerely want to believe in a Savior but who cannot overcome the brainwashing we all receive in school that tells us "if you can't poke it with a stick, it isn't real"? Are they all going to roast in hell eternally because they were never literally baptized with water or present at a camp meeting altar call?
No, it can't be that simple. God is not unjust. We know that God is perfect. Therefore, He is perfectly just. It therefore follows that He will judge all men justly, even those who never heard the name of Jesus or believed in Him due to accident of birth, rearing, or expoure to modern materialist scientism. Abraham and Elijah were not baptized Christians, nor did they ever make their way forward at an altar call, but we know that Abraham and Elijah went to Heaven; obviously, then, Christ in His mercy provides some means of incorporating into His Church those who seek to know Him, even if they do not know Him by name. ("My sheep hear my voice" - John 10:27)
"No salvation outside the Church" -- but it is not up to us to judge who is outside of the Church. God alone can judge a man's soul. Yes, Jesus Christ is the only Way to eternal life -- and I believe that in His mercy, God makes this fact plain to everyone at some point in one's life, even if that point is one's last dying breath.
Salvation is for all men of all places and eras; this is what the Church has always taught. Heaven awaits those who recognize the Light and choose to serve Him. The only people who will go to Hell are those choose to do so -- in other words, those who are made aware of the redemption offered by Christ and yet say "non serviam".
I pray God that when my time comes, His grace overcomes my haughty pride and permits me to enter the reward Christ has prepared for His servants.
The Pope appears to be saying that nonbelievers who are "committed to peace and the good of the community" and who possess "a spark of desire" for "a genuine redemption" will be lead to Christ. He does not say that they may be saved apart from or without Christ.
Although I am not a Catholic, I agree with the Pope on this.
That's how I read it too, Logophile.
Never mind, I just reread it. Missed the "redemption" phrase higer up.
"No salvation outside the Church". But do aborted children go to Hell? How about jungle tribesmen who have never heard of Christianity? How about those who were taught a hateful, Pharisaic version of Chistianity and who fled the faith in disgust? How about Mormons, who honestly believe that Joseph Smith's ersatz Christianity is the Real Thing? (No offense meant to Mormons; even though I don't believe your religion is true, I know that God will honor your faith.) How about those with mental disorders, or the retarded, or those who are brought up to believe in the teachings of Mohammed, or Moses, or Madeline Murray O'Hare?"
Your statement may be logical, even desirable, but it is not Biblical. Paul refers to a time...
"...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints"
People are punished for "not know[ing] God". Though the Bible is clear that those who did not know His will are punished less.
As for the infants and the mentally disabled, they fall into a different catagory.
"For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression."
Rom 4
In other words, when a being can not understand the difference between right and wrong, or if they are of such limited capacity that they cannot understand the Gospel, there is no possibility of transgression.
(Gal 1:6-9 KJV)
Exactly what I was thinking. Who else could be saved, but unbelievers?
First, there will be no rejecters of the faith who will be saved, imo. In other words, these would be unbelievers who are not random unbelievers, but they are a group of unbelievers who have heard of Jesus and have specifically and intentionally rejected Him.
Lu 10:16 - He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me."
Second, there will be no unbelievers saved who have based their hopes on living according to God's law, whether written on paper or on the heart. The Bible informs us that no man shall be justified by the works of the law. Therefore, there are no unbelievers saved by any law.
Ga 2:16 - ...knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Third, there will be no unbelievers saved who base their hopes on a false god, a god other than the one true God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, F14 nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Fourth, there will be no unbelievers who rely on anything other than faith in God who will be saved.
Heb 11:6 - Show Context But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
These are some of my initial thoughts. Any unbeliever who would be saved must be one who has not ever rejected believing in Jesus, who is not relying on works, who does not worship any false god, and who has faith in the one true God.
I think you're a little too quick to assert an equivalence between "not a professing Christian" and "does not know God".
I will agree with you that "not a professing Christian" equates to "does not know the whole revelation of the truth about God," but that is not the same as "does not know God".
In any case, that has little to do with what the Pope actually said, which is that some among the Babylonian captors of the Jews were on their way to the truth, despite not being Jewish themselves.
BTW, did you ever finish the download of e-sword? If not, I'll buy you a copy of the cd for Christmas and mail it to your church.
The Bible says that works of the Mosaic Law do not justify. It does not say that those who "set their hopes on living according to God's law" cannot be saved, merely that their own efforts in doing so cannot save them apart from grace.
I would hope that you would agree that living according to the moral law is a very good thing. Believing that you can live that way apart from grace is an error, as is concluding that righteous living (even aided by grace) is what saves. However, it doesn't follow that everyone who is in a state of theological error is damned. "Salvation by faith" does not mean "salvation by doctrinally orthodox profession of faith".
PM, I simply haven't gotten back to it yet. If I remember, I'll try another download tonight while I'm sleeping.
Dialup Man is slow, slow, slow.
"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man comes to the Father except by me." Jesus Christ
I think we're simply fine-tuning the exact language to get at saying that justification is not by works. I accept your language above as better than mine.
Any unbeliever who expects his works will earn him the right to bang on the Pearly Gates and demand entrance to heaven will be terribly surprised. He'll discover that he broke that law on multiple occasions.
"Grace" would be a fifth point.
Yes, but my point is additionally that he might still get in -- just not in the way he expected to. In other words, we agree that he's in error, but people can sometimes be saved in spite of their errors.
What about the Syrophoenician Woman? (Mark 7:25-30/Matthew 15:21-28)
I think that is dancing pretty close to the "other" gospel mentioned by Paul in Galatians. I would not be willing to express a belief that there is any other way to the Father except through Christ. Read these verses carefully and in order:
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
That is not a correctible error. If you get that wrong here, you will be in a lot of trouble there.
Even the Good Thief was a non-believer, but Jesus told him, "This day you will be with me in paradise."
Why should it be ugly?
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