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Pope makes pilgrimage to Mary statue in Rome, marking the feast of the Immaculate Conception
Catholic News Agency ^ | December 8, 2005

Posted on 12/08/2005 1:29:11 PM PST by NYer

Rome, Dec. 08, 2005 (CNA) - After the Mass celebrated in Saint Peters Basilica, Pope Benedict marked the feast of the Immaculate Conception, paying homage to the statue of Mary in Rome's historic Piazza di Spagna .

Thousands of Romans flocked to the square to greet the German pope, on his first 'pilgrimage' to the sculpture of the Virgin .

The tradition of the papal pilgrimage was brought back by his predecessor John Paul II more than 20 years ago .

"I deliver to the celestial mother of the Redeemer the anxieties and hopes of humanity," the 78-year-old pontiff said. He called on Mary to grace mankind with her spiritual presence "in every moment of our existence, above all during moments of darkness and trials." The statue of the Virgin Mary stands on a column in the northern section of the piazza, just around the corner from the famed Spanish Steps known to all tourists .

The column was erected by Pope Pius IX in 1854 after he declared the dogma of her immaculate conception, meaning that Jesus' mother was conceived without the stain of original sin .


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; General Discusssion; Ministry/Outreach; Prayer; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: mary
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Pope Benedict XVI blesses faithfuls during his annual pray at the Immaculate Conception statue on the Spain piazza in Rome, 08 December 2005.

After 30 years in mothballs, the Holy Father has restored ermine to the papal wardrobe.

1 posted on 12/08/2005 1:29:12 PM PST by NYer
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To: american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...


There's Ganswein holding the umbrella.

2 posted on 12/08/2005 1:33:05 PM PST by NYer (ôSocialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: All

"He called on Mary to grace mankind with her spiritual presence"

She's not omnipresent is she?


3 posted on 12/08/2005 1:49:00 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: NYer

Ever since he became pope, I believe the white looks so good on him...in both senses. Ermine! What will Peta say?


4 posted on 12/08/2005 2:13:06 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: NYer
After 30 years in mothballs, the Holy Father has restored ermine to the papal wardrobe.

Maybe it's time to pull out all the stops.


5 posted on 12/08/2005 2:30:22 PM PST by Oratam
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To: PetroniusMaximus

That was my question when I read this also. If that is not what is believed, how would the Pope's comment make any sense?


6 posted on 12/08/2005 2:54:25 PM PST by suzyjaruki ("What do you seek?")
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To: PetroniusMaximus
She's not omnipresent is she?

*************

Perhaps I misunderstood his words, but I didn't conclude that was his meaning.

7 posted on 12/08/2005 3:01:04 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: NYer

open car? God protect him.


8 posted on 12/08/2005 3:18:23 PM PST by Mercat (God loves us where He finds us.)
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To: PetroniusMaximus; suzyjaruki; trisham

Catholic teaching on this matter can be found, among other places, here: http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Faith/0910-96/articl10.html


9 posted on 12/08/2005 3:21:28 PM PST by Oratam
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Mary has told one of her,servants,St. Catherine Sienna,that she is the channel through which graces flow from ..and said,"those who ask graces of me, I shall grant".
God gave Mary this "power" to be helper of those who call on her,as a Mother,to help them! Simple as all that ! That is what the Pope means.


10 posted on 12/08/2005 4:26:16 PM PST by Rosary (Pray the rosary daily,wear the Brown scapular)
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To: NYer

Much better post! Thanks!


11 posted on 12/08/2005 4:27:05 PM PST by Rosary (Pray the rosary daily,wear the Brown scapular)
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To: Oratam
Maybe it's time to pull out all the stops.


12 posted on 12/08/2005 7:42:21 PM PST by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: NYer

I am waiting and watching this Pope. Oftentimes, I do not like the look the plays about his eyes. Also, Ganswein is handsome but the look about his eyes does not impress me. This is most unpopular for me to say. V's wife.


13 posted on 12/08/2005 8:32:53 PM PST by ventana
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To: ventana
Don't know if it's unpopular, but could you be more specific?

A lot of older guys get pouchy around the eyes, what is it that bothers you? He strikes me as a kindly sort, despite his reputation as a "Rottweiler" . . . but then I like Germans, especially Bavarians.

14 posted on 12/08/2005 8:43:37 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: Rosary

" Mary has told one of her,servants,St. Catherine Sienna,that she is the channel through which graces flow from "

That is absolutely anti-Christian against the teaching found in the Bible.

John says of Jesus:

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. ... And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

Grace comes to us through Jesus Christ.




It is also a direct contradiction of the teaching of the Lord. Look at this:

"On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink." - John 7

He said, "Come to ME" not "Go to Mary".




"God gave Mary this "power" to be helper of those who call on her,as a Mother,to help them!"


Jesus, not Mary, is the person we should call on help us. Look at waht the scriptures say...


"This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant... he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.

Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them." - Heb 7


Who do you think loves you more - Jesus or Mary?


15 posted on 12/08/2005 9:08:48 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: NYer
One God in four persons?
16 posted on 12/08/2005 9:43:17 PM PST by onedoug
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To: ventana

Pope Benedict is a shrewd, introspective and brilliant man. I've noticed his eyes are very different from JP-2's, who exuded love and warmth openly. Benedict seems to be taking in everything around him, rather than expressing his own feelings. JP-2 was smart but more a man of the people, goodness and love seemed to flow from him. Benedict is not so personable, he's more guarded and an ultra-intellectual. Maybe that's what you catch in his eyes.

After reading some books, I believe the Holy Father is a very sincere man devoted to the Church. It's just that he can appear cold. But if you want to get some insights into his background and thoughts about the church today, you might like to read "Salt of the Earth."


17 posted on 12/08/2005 9:44:53 PM PST by baa39
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To: PetroniusMaximus; Salvation

If you want to take quotes from the Bible to justify your viewpoint, that can just as easily be done for Mary.

"The angel of the Lord appeared to her." That alone is amazing, as usually God sends his messages to people in dreams in the old and new testaments. But here, he sends a heavenly body.

"Hail Mary, full of grace!" That's not a Catholic made-up prayer, it's from scripture. Mary is the only woman who ever lived who is grace-filled, pure of defect, immaculate. This gives her a special place of honor among all humanity. This does not mean we worship Mary like we do God, but she is "blessed among women."

"Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus." Mary and Jesus DO go together. You can't have one without the other. He chose her to be his tabernacle.

When Mary visits Elizabeth, and the latter cries "the baby leapt in my womb for joy." The future John the Baptist recognizes Jesus inside Mary. Could God choose to dwell in anything less that a perfect and pure vessel?

There have been only two perfect human beings on planet earth, Jesus and Mary. I don't see why some folks have such a problem with that. Mary herself has appeared in many parts of the world, not just in visions, but physically.

It's easy to dismiss Mary if you have never looked into Marian theology or the Church's teachings on Mary. Don't deprive yourself of your spiritual Mother. As Jesus said on the cross, "Here is your Mother."

And after his Resurrection, he glorified Mary by bringing her body and soul to Heaven. She is in the perfect state, as is Christ, which we may all attain someday.

We all agree Mary existed, that Jesus was born of a woman.
Besides the Bible, which can be twisted around to suit everyone, we also have 2000 years of history, revelations, mystics who spoke with Mary, Catholic doctrine which was revealed over centuries, not just made up on the whim of a pope.

But also, isn't it just common sense? This is the Mother of God! We know she has preceeded us to Heaven, we know that during his lifetime Jesus always honored and respected her, that as a child he was dependent on her for his every need. Should we not follow his example?


18 posted on 12/08/2005 10:03:01 PM PST by baa39
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To: baa39; Salvation
*******"That alone is amazing, as usually God sends his messages to people in dreams in the old and new testaments. But here, he sends a heavenly body."

Luke 1:11
And there appeared unto him [Zacharias] an angel of the Lord standing o­n the right side of the altar of incense.




*******"Hail Mary, full of grace!"

Believers are told that they are also "full of grace" [caritovw] by Paul in Ephesians...

Luke 1:28 And he came to her and said, Greetings, O favored one [caritovw] , the Lord is with you!

Eph 1:16 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted [caritovw] in the beloved.

 

*******"Mary is the o­nly woman who ever lived who is grace-filled, pure of defect, immaculate."

What do you base this belief o­n - becasue it isn't in the Scriptures.

 

*******"Mary and Jesus DO go together. You can't have o­ne without the other."

Jesus is Eternal God. I assure you that you can have Jesus without Mary. If Mary would have said "no" then God would have found someone else. What you are saying is borderline blaspheme.


*******"There have been o­nly two perfect human beings o­n planet earth, Jesus and Mary."

There are five explicit references to Jesus' sinlessness in the Bible. Regarding Mary there are none.

Paul said...
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Peter said...
1 Peter 2:22
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

John said...
1 John 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Paul said...
Hebrews 4:15-16
We do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathise with our weaknesses, but we have o­ne who has been tempted in every way, just as we are - yet was without sin

Jesus said...
John 8:46
"Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?"

 

*******"Don't deprive yourself of your spiritual Mother."

The "mother" believers is the heavenly Jerusalem...

Galatians 4:26
"But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

 


*******"Besides the Bible, which can be twisted around to suit everyone, we also have 2000 years of history, revelations, mystics who spoke with Mary, Catholic doctrine which was revealed over centuries, not just made up o­n the whim of a pope."

Every theological belief must be judged by it's argeement with the Scriptures! Even as Isaiah said...

Isaiah 8:20
"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

And how can you be absolutely sure these appearances were really Mary? Remember, "even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." - Galatians 4:26

 

*******"Jesus always honored and respected her, that as a child he was dependent o­n her for his every need. Should we not follow his example?"

Yes we should! Starting here:

"While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." - Matthew 12

19 posted on 12/08/2005 11:47:21 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus

May the Lord add His blessing to your posts. Thank You for your care here.


20 posted on 12/09/2005 3:04:20 AM PST by .30Carbine (The Lord knows those who are His.)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
Yes, but he didn't perform his first miracle for just anybody.

Paul may have instructed the Ephesians that they have, upon Christ's death and resurrection, been bestowed with spiritual graces(1:3-14) but he nowhere says Epeshians hail, you are full of grace! Nor is he an Archangel of the Lord, a significant distinction. It is Scriptural that Mary is full of grace, a statement not accorded to another woman elsewhere in Scripture, consequently a logical part of Tradition: many important things were not recorded but were known and occurred and held fast to in Tradition, but Mary's grace filled status is scriptural fact. And Paul says there are, for the Ephesians, spiritual grace but he does not go on to say that they are in the fullness of it or what would be the logic of this statement: "For this cause I also, hearing of the fiath in the Lord Jesus which is among you, and of your charity to all the saints, cease not giving thanks for you, making remembrance of you in my prayers, in order that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory may grant you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation unto the full knowledge of himself and enlighten the eyes of your heart to know wwhat is the hope of his calling, that the treasure of the glory of his inheritance among the saints" (1:15-19). In other words, these Ephesians are not there yet, but Paul prays that they may eventually be granted this fullness of grace.

There is no such qualification in the Lukan Narrative: "Hail full of grace the Lord is with thee" She is already full of Grace and with the Lord, whereas the Ephesians are still working on it, working it out, and with Paul's prayer. And Mary knows her place too and states: "henceforth all generations shall call me blessed" Luke 1:48. Paul doesn't say this about himself, or others. Only Mary is allowed this proclamation. And of course, before Mary even allows this about herself, Elizabeth witnesses this for us: "Blessed art thou among all woman" singularly identifying our Lady as alone among all women as, well, singularly blessed. And somehow, while I am sure you are very nice, I think the Church is correct in accepting Elizabeth's testimony, after all she was specially qualified giving birth, as she did, to the man who baptised our Lord. As to Mary's sinlessness, well the tabernacle of the Lord, logically, could never be unclean. V's wife.

21 posted on 12/09/2005 8:42:58 AM PST by ventana
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To: ventana
Dear One, we are all Tabernacles of the Lord when we receive Him into ourselves by faith. He comes and makes his home with us. Just as the baby Jesus had a home in the womb of a fully human, descended-from-Adam woman, so the King and Conquerer Jesus makes his home in us today!

It was similar with the first Tabernacle, the one that Moses built in the wilderness: The Lord came down as smoke and filled the Temple!

1 Corinthians 6:19 (The teaching of the Apostle Paul):
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?

John 14:16-17 (The words of Jesus Christ):
"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you."

May the Word of God be believed! Our souls may magnify the Lord just as Mary's did, for He has chosen to make our bodies His tent in this wilderness until He establishes New Jerusalem! O! God's peace to Jerusalem!
22 posted on 12/09/2005 1:24:59 PM PST by .30Carbine (God is with us, Immanuel!)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

You ask
Who do you think loves you more - Jesus or Mary?
At the foot of the cross STOOD Mary,and on the cross was her Son Jesus-they both loved all mankind-for the sake of the immortal salvation of the souls. Neither HAD to be where they were-but under LOVE suffered to save us.
Could you stand there? and watch an innocent relative die?
Mary,is not greater then Jesus,she is not God-BUT she was the MOTHER..and from this she is LOVED and respected,and reverenced in the Catholic Church I hope one day you'll KNOW THIS. No sin in it and I bet it pleases Jesus to see His Mother LOVED, and called on..just as you'd callon your own flesh- Mother, thus,love and like the folks who like your MOM. Simple.


23 posted on 12/09/2005 3:18:52 PM PST by Rosary (Pray the rosary daily,wear the Brown scapular)
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To: Rosary

"Mary,is not greater then Jesus,she is not God-BUT she was the MOTHER..and from this she is LOVED and respected,and reverenced in the Catholic Church"

So, who do you think loves you more - Jesus or Mary?


24 posted on 12/09/2005 3:30:05 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: ventana
There is no such qualification in the Lukan Narrative: "Hail full of grace the Lord is with thee" She is already full of Grace and with the Lord, whereas the Ephesians are still working on it, working it out, and with Paul's prayer. And Mary knows her place too and states: "henceforth all generations shall call me blessed" Luke 1:48. Paul doesn't say this about himself, or others. Only Mary is allowed this proclamation. And of course, before Mary even allows this about herself, Elizabeth witnesses this for us: "Blessed art thou among all woman" singularly identifying our Lady as alone among all women as, well, singularly blessed. And somehow, while I am sure you are very nice, I think the Church is correct in accepting Elizabeth's testimony, after all she was specially qualified giving birth, as she did, to the man who baptised our Lord. As to Mary's sinlessness, well the tabernacle of the Lord, logically, could never be unclean. V's wife.

That's excellent! I often wondered why +Luke elaborated so on the Blessed Mother, and not +John whose charge she was left in.

25 posted on 12/09/2005 3:57:50 PM PST by AlbionGirl
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Equallly-because if not for Mary's "yes" there would be no Jesus and if NOT for Jesus' life,death and resuurection we could not get to Heaven.


26 posted on 12/09/2005 4:35:33 PM PST by Rosary (Pray the rosary daily,wear the Brown scapular)
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To: murphE

Hey MurphE how about something on the last of my Post here.


27 posted on 12/09/2005 4:36:41 PM PST by Rosary (Pray the rosary daily,wear the Brown scapular)
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To: .30Carbine

We are in a relationship with God when we receive him, by his grace, and our faith, yes .30Carbine. But we are not unique, we are not proclaimed by an Archangel, we are not "full of grace" and, though the Holy Spirit resides in us, we offend the temple when we sin, which we do, we are fallen. She was not, nor could she have been by yes, even our own limited logic. It is inconceivable that God would choose as his vessel a vessel that was corrupt. Now, as to temples, yet they may be corrupt, otherwise, why would our Lord have to drive money changers from them? But the tabernacle? No, it must be pure. V's wife.


28 posted on 12/09/2005 4:39:13 PM PST by ventana
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To: AlbionGirl

In Jesus' life there were mysteries, Luke's part was to explain the history of the glorious mystery of His birth in full detail. John's part seems to have been to intellectually convey the mystery of salvation more fully on an almost philosophical level. One recaps the past, one frames the future. This is my ignorant view. V's wife.


29 posted on 12/09/2005 4:45:46 PM PST by ventana
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To: Rosary

PM: So, who do you think loves you more - Jesus or Mary?

Rosary: Equallly-because if not for Mary's "yes" there would be no Jesus...


Rosary, even your Catholic friends will tell you that, though you may not have intended it, your statement is blasphemous. Jesus is eternal and infinite God. Mary is a finite, created being and her love could never come close to the Love which God has for you.

Reflect on Paul's prayer for believers recorded in Ephesians,

"For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith--that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Ephesians 3


30 posted on 12/09/2005 5:35:53 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus

There is nothing contradicted in Rosary's statement. They love equally-he in his capacity, she in hers. Are their capacities equal? No. But that is not what you asked. In charity, V's wife.


31 posted on 12/09/2005 5:56:12 PM PST by ventana
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To: ventana
"They love equally-he in his capacity, she in hers. Are their capacities equal? No."

That is a nonsensical statement. By that definition you could argue that it is entirely possible that your cat loves you as much as Jesus does.

If you know what I am getting at, ask yourself why it is that you are avoiding it.
32 posted on 12/09/2005 6:08:16 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus

I've always been impressed with the cruxifiction sequence in John, where Jesus bestows Mary as mother of the disciple that He loved, and then, seeing that all was completed, gave up the ghost.

His very last pre-resurrection act...which completed his work.

Hmm. Powerful stuff. Particularly when I reflect that I am a disciple, and that Jesus loves me.

It's frankly a little difficult, given the above, to get inside the heads of Sola Scriptura types who seem intent on scoring points off of Catholics by reducing Mary to a disposable status, and that's even before reading about the "Queen of Heaven" in Rev. At the beginning of chapter 12 she gives birth to the Christ. She is pursued and persecuted. At the end of chapter 12 she has many children, all of whom bear the testimony of Jesus Christ. It does not go on to reflect that many of her own seed deride her. That role seems left to "others."

V's wife's husband


33 posted on 12/09/2005 6:44:07 PM PST by ventana
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To: NYer

I saw this episode last night... them cartoonist are crazy.


34 posted on 12/09/2005 6:45:31 PM PST by Porterville (Beware the Egyptian Politics)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
If Mary would have said "no" then God would have found someone else.

Protestants always say this in an attempt to minimize the Blessed Mother, and it never ceases to amaze me.

How is it that you claim to know what God "would have done" had Mary said "no"? Who are you??

You have no idea what God "would have done"; you can no more speculate about God's hypothetical reactions in hypothetical situations than you can turn a hair on your head white or black, to borrow a phrase of the Lord's.

And incidentally, claiming that grace comes through Jesus, not through Mary, is to deny the obvious Incarnational fact of the Christian faith that Jesus came through Mary!

You are going far, far off the rails, PM. If you stay on the trajectory you're on, you'll soon be a Jehovah's Witness or a B'nai Noach; not even a Christian anymore.

35 posted on 12/09/2005 9:12:38 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
Jesus is eternal and infinite God. Mary is a finite, created being and her love could never come close to the Love which God has for you.

Mary is also a finite, created being who stands in the presence of God at this moment, and her love for us is greater than that of any earthly being we know.

36 posted on 12/09/2005 9:15:46 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Campion
"You have no idea what God "would have done"

God never changes, and the Bible tells us what he would have done in similar circumstances. Here is the Biblical grounds for my statement;

"Then Mordecai told them to reply to Esther, "Do not think to yourself that in the king's palace you will escape any more than all the other Jews. For if you keep silent at this time, relief and deliverance will rise for the Jews from another place, but you and your father's house will perish. And who knows whether you have not come to the kingdom for such a time as this?" Esther 4

Specifically, "For if you keep silent at this time, relief and deliverance will rise for the Jews from another place".

If Esther, or any other Biblical character, were to refuse (for whatever reason) their appointed role then God would raise up deliverance from a different place.

In Daniel we read:

"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" - Daniel 4:35

There is no o­ne among all the inhabitants of the earth who can "stay His hand". No human can prevent God from fulfilling His plan.

To affirm that Mary's "no" would halt the plan of salvation is a denial of the sovereignty of God. To deny her the ability to say no is a denial of the reality of man's will.



"And incidentally, claiming that grace comes through Jesus, not through Mary, is to deny the obvious Incarnational fact of the Christian faith that Jesus came through Mary!"

And Mary came through Anna, and Anna came through... etc., etc. regressing back to Adam. Jesus said "Salvation is from the Jews". You see the point.

If you want to say that grace came trhough Mary, then it also came through Anna, Anna's mother, Anna's grandmother... back to Adam.





"You are going far, far off the rails, PM. If you stay o­n the trajectory you're o­n, you'll soon be a Jehovah's Witness"

Campion, I appreciate your statement because I know it comes from an honest heart, but can you explain to me how my failure to believe in the extra-biblical idea that salvation is dependent o­n Mary puts me in danger of sliding into a cult?

The o­nly person that salvation is inescapably, unavoidably dependent o­n is Jesus Christ.
37 posted on 12/09/2005 9:53:39 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Campion
"Mary is also a finite, created being who..."


How big a difference is there between finite and infinite?

38 posted on 12/09/2005 9:55:35 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: ventana
It is inconceivable that God would choose as his vessel a vessel that was corrupt.

But we have this treasure in jars of clay
to show that this all-surpassing power is from God
and not from us.
2 Corinthians 4:7


Athanasian Creed

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

___________________________________________________




O! Beware that thou shouldst add a fourth person to the Godhead!

39 posted on 12/10/2005 3:23:41 AM PST by .30Carbine (God is with us, Immanuel!)
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To: ventana

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;


40 posted on 12/10/2005 3:24:48 AM PST by .30Carbine (God is with us, Immanuel!)
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To: .30Carbine
Yes, we only worship the triune God. Absolutely. But we remember the Advent moment by meditating on these words:

My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord (we join Mary in this)

My spirit rejoices in God my savior

for he has looked with favor on his lowly servant (because of this, we participate, too)

From this day all generations will call me blessed:

the Almighty has done great things for me

and holy is his Name

He has mercy on those who fear him

in every generation

He has shown the strength of his arm

he has scattered the proud in their conceit.

He has cast down the mighty from their thrones

and has lifted up the lowly

He has filled the hungry with good things

and the rich he has sent away empty.

He has come to the help of his serrvant Israel

for he has remembered his promise of mercy He remembers this promise of mercy through Mary! After all was said and done from Abraham, Israel, Moses, and so on these Patriarchs are dwarfed for He remembers His promise throught this young woman: Mary, the most highly favored one. God doesn't just select any old Abraham, Israel, or Moses. These were specific people. And she was the one proclaimed: full of grace by the angel of the Lord

the promise he made to our fathers,

to Abraham and his children for ever.

She is our spiritual Mother, .30 Carbine, she is His Mother, and the Almighty's most chaste spouse. It is scriptural.

Lastly:Jhn 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Jhn 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own [home].

He gave her to us, .30Carbine: John is us, and we must care for her rightful place and honor her.This is not worshipping her, however. V's wife

41 posted on 12/10/2005 5:27:46 AM PST by ventana
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Well, cats can't love. What are you getting at, and why play cat and mouse with it? So to speak. :) V's wife.


42 posted on 12/10/2005 5:30:40 AM PST by ventana
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To: PetroniusMaximus
"Campion, I appreciate your statement because I know it comes from an honest heart, but can you explain to me how my failure to believe in the extra-biblical idea that salvation is dependent o­n Mary puts me in danger of sliding into a cult? "

And yet, again PM, Rev. 12, in my Bible and Yours. Those who profess the testimony of Jesus Christ, all of 'em, are identified as the children of Mary.

So? Are you one of us?

43 posted on 12/10/2005 9:12:48 AM PST by ventana
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To: ventana
"And yet, again PM, Rev. 12, in my Bible and Yours. Those who profess the testimony of Jesus Christ, all of 'em, are identified as the children of Mary."

Spouse of ventana, the identification of the woman of Rev 12 is highly problematic even from a Catholic viewpoint!

Notice - she had pain in childbirth. Mary, according to Catholic tradition, had no pain. (It would be comparable to having Christ as a symbolic figure in a passage and showing that symbolic figure sinning in some ways).

Additionally she had many children. Mary, according to Catholic tradition, had only one child.

The better identification is that she is the heavenly Jerusalem, the true Israel, in the OT the wife of God.




P.S. you are posting enough that should get your own account - how about "Mr. ventana"?
44 posted on 12/10/2005 9:25:09 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: ventana

"Well, cats can't love. "

Your right. I should have said dogs!




"What are you getting at, and why play cat and mouse with it? So to speak. :)"

This is what I am getting at with the question. Why go to someone who loves you less to make an appeal to someone who loves you more?

Jesus is infinite God. He love you infinitely. Mary is fininte. She loves you infinitely less than Jesus. So why go to Mary to get to Jesus (never mind the fact that the Bible says there is one mediator between God and man)?


The Bible says that if we come by the blood of Jesus that we can boldly come to the throne of grace to find help in time of need. It doesn't say we need to come through Mary.


45 posted on 12/10/2005 9:33:07 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus; AlbionGirl; Salvation; Land of the Irish

It is so Jesus is eternal because He is of the Holy Trinity, BUT the Father so WILLED he become a God-man through MAry. Thus He also created MAry to be the Mother of Jesus for this purpose. Jesus Christ IS TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN.
MAry is HIS Divine and most pure Mother by the singular GRACE of GOD.
And Jesus I am SURE would not like anyone slapping His MOM down so watch it!


46 posted on 12/10/2005 5:20:19 PM PST by Rosary (Pray the rosary daily,wear the Brown scapular)
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To: Rosary

******" It is so Jesus is eternal because He is of the Holy Trinity, BUT the Father so WILLED he become a God-man through MAry"

Agreed.




******"MAry is HIS Divine and most pure Mother by the singular GRACE of GOD."

Mary is not "Divine".

Divine means having the nature of or being a deity.



******"And Jesus I am SURE would not like anyone slapping His MOM down so watch it!"

As I have posted elsewhere: This is NOT an attack o­n Mary! I believe everything the Bible says about Mary - that she was a pure and humble haindmaden of the Lord, but nevertheless a sinner in need of a Savior.

My comments are a defense of the Mary of the Bible from those who wish to inflate her into some type of semi-divine, female Savior.


47 posted on 12/10/2005 5:56:21 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus
Well, of course we can go boldly to the throne of grace. But we can also go to one another and ask for prayers, so why not Mary and the Saints? If we can ask each other,it seems a bit of a snub to ignore Mary. Yes pain in childbirth is something Mary would logically not have suffered, but there is no doubt that Mary is referenced in Apocalypse (from New Advent): In the Apocalypse (12:1-6) occurs a passage singularly applicable to Our Blessed Mother: And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered. And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems; and his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven; and cast them to the earth; and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod; and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her a thousand two hundred sixty days. The applicability of this passage to Mary is based on the following considerations: * At least part of the verses refer to the mother whose son is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; according to Psalm 2:9, this is the Son of God, Jesus Christ, Whose mother is Mary. * It was Mary's son that "was taken up to God, and to his throne" at the time of His Ascension into heaven. * The dragon, or the devil of the earthly paradise (cf. Apocalypse 12:9; 20:2), endeavoured to devour Mary's Son from the first moments of His birth, by stirring up the jealousy of Herod and, later on, the enmities of the Jews. * Owing to her unspeakable privileges, Mary may well be described as "clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars". * It is true that commentators generally understand the whole passage as applying literally to the Church, and that part of the verses is better suited to the Church than to Mary. But it must be kept in mind that Mary is both a figure of the Church, and its most prominent member. What is said of the Church, is in its own way true of Mary. Hence the passage of the Apocalypse (12:5-6) does not refer to Mary merely by way of accommodation [108], but applies to her in a truly literal sense which appears to be partly limited to her, and partly extended to the whole Church. Mary's relation to the Church is well summed up in the expression "collum corporis mystici" applied to Our Lady by St. Bernardin of Siena. [109]

This reverence of her is from the very earliest days as attested to by the Christians of the Catacombs. Were these early believers wrong? They venerated her. I am tossing my coin with them. V's wife.

48 posted on 12/11/2005 8:15:07 AM PST by ventana
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To: ventana

" It is true that commentators generally understand the whole passage as applying literally to the Church, and that part of the verses is better suited to the Church than to Mary. "

You see, they admit it right there. The rest of the commentary has no Biblical support (that's why they offer no references).

But it isn't the "Church" as in the RCC. It's the "Church" like the Remnant, the Messianic community stretching back into the OT.

It's the true Israel.


49 posted on 12/11/2005 8:37:06 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: suzyjaruki

Yeaits what's beleived. WHat you think that when we are risen up, we are physically limited as in this earth?


50 posted on 12/11/2005 11:00:26 AM PST by The Cuban
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